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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Kaneman: I *hope* you're just being sarcastic. I'd like to think no one could actually be that ignorant, but recent posts by a few here have shaken my certainty.

You're quick to bag on France and England, but you need to go brush up on your history a bit. Without the aid of France in the Revolutionary War, the US would not exist today. France sent weapons, naval support, and troops to the Continental Army at the time of their direst need, and enabled them to continue the fight against the British.

Mind you, this wasn't an altruistic move on France's part - it was an attempt to weaken the British Empire. Still, though, the French did help us, and for that, we're forever in their debt. How much did they help? Enough that it destroyed their economy, and led directly to their OWN revolution in 1789.

The British held of the Nazi Luftwaffe in the summer of 1940 during the Battle of Britain, keeping them from taking over England. This turned out to be quite important for the US a year and a half later, when we joined WWII. It gave us a base of operations from which to launch attacks at the Nazi stronghold which then included just about all of Europe with the exception of the British Isles. In essence, England became the world's largest aircraft carrier, and combined Allied air attacks launched from England finally cleared the way for a massive Allied naval force to cross the Channel and set foot on French soil in June 1944. There's serious doubt that we could have won the war without the aid, the personnel, and the bases that England provided, and for that we are forever in each other's debt.

Once we landed in France, it wasn't long before we liberated the country, and for that they're forever in our debt.

So you see, the three are inextricably intertwined, and their fates are, to a certain extent, now linked.

Oh, and if you're just going to try to be insulting, PLEASE get your bigotted names right. The French are the "frogs", not the British; the Brits are "limeys", the Irish are "micks", and the Scots are... well, they're just the best whiskey-makers in the world!

Oh, and those frogs that you hate so much? They also gave us a pretty cool statue that most Americans seem to like. You might have seen it - big green chick standing off Manhattan holding up a light of liberty for the world to see? Maybe you want us to give it back to them, since we don't seem to be using it right now.

Mike

Remember, Kiddies, you can't spell "QUAGMIRE" without "I", "R", "A", & "Q"!

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One more thing, Israel didn't start this action get your facts right.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
The two so-called "kidnapped" soldiers were captured in Aita al Chaab, which is inside Lebanon, and were part of 32 raids into Lebanese territory carried out that day.

I dunno what you'd call that...

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Shortly after Hezbollah fighters attacked an IDF military vehicle between Zar'it and Shtula and kidnapped the soldiers, the Islamic militia's leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, called the abductions as "our natural, only and logical right."

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Hezbollah’s assault on Israeli soldiers inside Israeli territory bore similarities to the raid by the Palestinians last month, and suddenly, the crisis on Israel’s southern flank had essentially been replicated on its northern border, ratcheting up tensions even further.
. . .
“The capture of the two soldiers could provide a solution to the Gaza crisis,” Sheik Nasrallah said in Beirut. The operation had been planned for months, he said, though he added, “the timing, no doubt, provides support for our brothers in Palestine.”

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Originally posted by kaneman:
Spoke like a true liberal limey.....First we saved or whooped your english as* how many times? Every........Period

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Oh, last I checked... The only reason we went into Vet. was because you got your as* kicked(Or was thatthefrench)

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..Grenada.HaHaMuthafrakinHaHa, South America HaHamuthafrakinha,

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India,

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AMERICA..

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Your biggest national heros? King Arthur, Peter pan, Robin hood!

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Think about it over tea frog.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t know anything about Kaneman, but the comment about losing every war that wasn’t backed by Britain is a pretty pejorative statement. Americans get called arrogant for making statements like that; I think British people should too.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by 'Hero':
"dirty Jews"

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You think Jews are dirty? I suppose that fits in with you general outlook, they're not conservative Christian American so not 'good'.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Jews are dirty

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Originally posted by yinyang:
I prefer reality; but, thanks for the suggestion.

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Originally posted by yinyang:
It's not to say I wouldn't make some effort to save myself; it's just that the chances of me surviving multiple rocket attacks is slim to nil.

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I should have known better since many of you can't see past your own ignorance.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Grenada is the second smallest nation in the western hemisphere but you pansys were so scared of said piss-ant nation you had to go ahead and invade. Now you think you're hard as coffin nails because you beat an army consisting of three guys and a sharp stick.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Now prove you really are unbiased and just trying to bring balance as you like to make out and correct Kaneman.

I'm aware of what Grenada was all about and what happened, it's Kaneman that needs a history lesson.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Now if I had posted something intentionally mis-leading would you not in turn call me on it?

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Now if I had posted something intentionally mis-leading would you not in turn call me on it?

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Not if you'd posted it just to wind up some redneck, no.

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I mean intentionally misleading? If anyone thinks 'three guys and a sharp stick' was meant as a serious assessment of Grenada's military power they've got problems far more serious than being deliberately misled.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
I would rather have a discussion than a flame war but to each his/her own.

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It was more your reasoning behind the invasion. Were the pansy Americans scared of the tiny Island Nation? Or were they concerned with the bloody Coup and the resulting communist influence. Just what were those 'Soviets', North Koreans, East Germans, and Libyans doing in Grenada besides vacationing?

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These kinds of things are always murky, but the official story is quite clear and quite different from your story.

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You can decide for yourself which one you will accept, but considering the raging anti-Israeli sentiment your posts seem to convey I’m guessing you've made up your mind regardless of any evidence.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Why don't you come out and say it rather than implying it?

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I also wonder why you bothered responding to me since you've already labelled me as the fanatical rabid lefty wishing to drive the right from these good shores.

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It was aimed at winding up miss America up there, still don't see any of your even handed posts directed at his alegations (all French and British people are this that and the other) maybe you agree with them?

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Originally posted by kaneman:
Hey citz, you frog faced limey. Glad to see I haunt you in your dreams. I think I'll be nice today...So I'll have to ignore you posts...But before I go into positive mode, Eat me. Oh, not all Americans that call Brits...limeys or French.......frogs are rednecks, psst...read a poll on American feelings towards France........ I read your posts and can't believe you don't live hear in the states. All you do is sit around and bash the US and our policies(even domestic policy), you are a pompous ass idiot. You have a comment on anything from the state sales tax in Utah to proposition 56 in Hartford, CT........Give it a fu*king rest. OOOOH, Gotta go ...Tea time.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Please show me proof that I have labeled you a fanatical rabid lefty who needs to be driven from the good shores.

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Hence why I will not respond to Kaneman. I will, however, stop responding to you if you would perfer, I wouldn't want things to get too personal.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I just do it to yank the skirts of the damned fools who seem to think it's all A-OK for one side to slaughter civilians, and BAD for the other side to do so, a duplicity that's helped feed this entire conflict.

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Originally posted by citizen:
BTW it's good to see you back, where you been?

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Originally posted by Oddsbodskins:
Finn, it was a well-thought out and interesting post, food for thought, so to speak, will have to mull it over a little methinks. (althought at this point still leaning towards the point of view that hell, they're ALL in the wrong, but it's more pro-israel then my PoV had been previously, so your post made it's impact ^^ )

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
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Morality 101.

If Hezbollah shells a civvie neighborhood - it is wrong.

If Israel shells a civvie neighborhood - it is wrong.

If you cross the border and fire at another countries troops or civvies, it's an act of aggression.
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As far as stealing peoples land, why don't you look up the original borders of Israel as established and agreed on, and look up where they are now, and ask a fekkin history teacher how they got that way ?

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Israel has been guilty of terrorist action just as any other middle eastern nation (...)

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I hate jackasses who deliberately target civvie population centers, no matter their nationality, no matter their race, creed, color or religion, and yes, that includes some chair-polishing shitheads at the pentagon who decided to shell neighborhoods in iraq too.

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Originally posted by Finn Mac Cuhmal:
you then go on to characterize Hezbollah as defending itself from Israeli aggression,

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Is killing Israeli civilians “A-OK?”

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Katyusha missiles aren’t guided like Israeli missiles. Hezbollah can’t drop them on a designated target if they wanted to, all they can do is lob them into neighborhoods, which they seem happy to do and you’re either ignorant of that fact, or okay with it.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Is this better? Hezbollah shoots off missiles some of which hit civilian targets (it's my understanding that most of Hezbollah's rockets don't hit any target, unless you call a bush in the middle of the desert a target), Israel targets civilians.

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Israel targets Missile batteries, not civilians. Hezbollah targets civilians. Targeting missile batteries instead of civilian neighborhoods is morally superior, yes.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Except what I'm seeing is civilians being blown up with survivors saying there were no missile batteries there. Sure they could be lying, but so could Israel, or their intelligence/ballistics could be wrong and they're not putting the energy into checking it. Either way I'm seeing a lot of dead innocent civilians but not so many blown up missile launchers. If Hezbollah is firing from the positions Israel attacks, they’ve obviously usually packed up and left by the time the counterattack arrives, so what exactly is the point in counter attacking?

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Originally posted by citizen:
But anyway I thought Hezbollah couldn't target its missiles?

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Originally posted by citizen:
Except what I'm seeing is civilians being blown up with survivors saying there were no missile batteries there. Sure they could be lying,

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Originally posted by citizen:
Hezbollah shoots off missiles some of which hit civilian targets (it's my understanding that most of Hezbollah's rockets don't hit any target, unless you call a bush in the middle of the desert a target), Israel targets civilians.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Katyusha missiles are fired from truck or trailer mounted batteries, which means that in many cases Hezbollah is firing them and then relocating. So I’m sure that in some cases (maybe even a lot) Israeli counter-attacks are landing in areas where there are no batteries (anymore), that doesn’t mean that there weren't batteries there or that Israeli wasn’t targeting batteries.

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Why would they intentionally target civilians?

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Katyusha missiles are Russian built 1950’s technology. They have no guidance system to speak up, so you can’t point them at anything smaller then a neighborhood and hope to hit anything.

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And considering that these missiles are, on average, falling on Israeli civilian neighborhoods, it seems quite clear that they are trying to hit civilian neighborhoods.

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Many people aren’t as likely to blame Hezbollah for killing civilians, for some twisted reason, so they don’t really have the same PR problem that Israel has.

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Originally posted by citizen:
To be honest Israel has targeted civilians, and frankly I think all the players in that region are as bad as each other, it's just one of them has US military backing.

If Israel are the good guys, and we know they have overwhelming military superiority, I find it hard to believe that there's not some other way of defending against missile attacks that isn't levelling tower blocks.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Which still begs my question, if there aren't any missiles there by the time Israel counter attacks what is the point?

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
So we should cut Hezbollah some slack because they have crappy missiles? They 'intend' to kill innocent civilians and damage infrastructure.

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If said launch site is in a civilian area, who ultimately is to blame for any civilian deaths that occur?

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Originally posted by citizen:
Israel has killed innocent civilians before and people just turn a blind eye because Israel is being attacked by terrorists. Why should we cut Israel slack because they have better equipment, why can we excuse Israel from killing many more civilians than Hezbollah?

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During the height of the troubles in Northern Ireland would it have been acceptable for the British to level an Irish village if they believed a terrorist responcible for a bombing may have been there?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t know that Israel has targeted civilians, and I don’t think you do either. I don’t know that I would put it beyond them, but without a doubt I don’t think Israel is as bad as Hezbollah or Hamas, by a huge margin.

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April 6 2003. I have been shot at, gassed, chased by soldiers, had sound grenades thrown within metres of me, been hit by falling debris and been in the way of a 10-tonne D-9 that didn't stop. As we approached, I kept expecting a part of my body to be hit by an 'invisible' force and shot of pain. It took a huge amoung of will to continue. I wondered what it would be like to be shot, and strangely I wasn't too scared. It is strange to know that each night people are shot and killed for breaking military curfew, and in the darkness on the north west side there is an Israeli settlement and a few hundred metres away with military snipers in between and any one of the four of us could be being watched through a sniper's sights at this moment. The certainty is that they are watching, and it is in the decision of any one Israeli soldier or settler that my life depends. I know that I'd probably never know what hit me, but it's part of the job to be as visible as possible.
...
On 11 April 2003, just hours after two Palestinian teenagers were shot and killed for no apparent reason, the activists were trying to set up a tent to block the Israeli tanks when shots rang out from a watchtower.

A group of children playing nearby scattered, but three froze in fear. Mr Hurndall rescued a five-year-old boy before running back for two little girls. As he bent down to pick one up, he was hit in the head. He died days before his 21st birthday.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/article357010.ece

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I’m sure that you want to believe that there is some other military action to counter artillery barrages other then counter-attacking with artillery. It seems very World-War-II-ish. But at the present time, there is no way to shoot down a Katyusha missile.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
of course not Citizen, but comparing the IRA to Hezbollah is like comparing apples to oranges.

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Originally posted by citizen:
(Not the full article unless you're a subscriber, I'll try and find another source).

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
It rooks me to see our money going to folks who have committed terrorist attacks against the UK, and our people, repeatedly in the past, and in every case trying to frame arabic countries for the acts, from the King David Hotel bombing (celebrated as a holiday over there, insultingly) by the Irgun in 1944, to the Lavon Affair, to the attack on the USS Liberty, they have a history of terrorism every bit as bad as any other middle eastern nation.
(And yes, it rooks me to see our money going to OTHER countries guilty of the same.)

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I simply don’t know of any case, and once again, you don’t appear to either.

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Can the Lebanese civilian death tolls be 'doctored' as well?

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Originally posted by citizen:
You've got from one guy altering two photos he took too everything that contradicts the Israeli accounts as a lie?

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Maybe the Israeli accounts are all doctored and they just haven't been caught yet?

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Adnan Hajj altering of photographs doesn't bring in to question the Lebanese death toll any more than it does the Israeli.

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