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Originally posted by misbehaven:
In the United States, our ability to advance important areas of scientific research is too often held hostage by the beliefs of our own religious fundamentalists.

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Instead you give us just another version of "repent or your going to hell." In this case its worship at the alter of science or you will be left behind.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
What's sad is that through my general interest in paleontology, I've gleaned more info on evolution than I was ever taught in H.S. or college. It's no wonder that so many in our population are left clueless over the topic.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Manimal being a good show

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Originally posted by Hero:
I think I've still got some left over from 1985

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Originally posted by misbehaven:

In the United States, our ability to advance important areas of scientific research is too often held hostage by the beliefs of our own religious fundamentalists.

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Originally posted by Hero:

I admit I have been disappointed by this thread.

I really expected something along the lines of a Catholic Priest with a gun to a monkey's head shouting: "ONE MORE DISCOVERY AND THE MONKEY GETS IT!"

Instead you give us just another version of "repent or your going to hell." In this case its worship at the alter of science or you will be left behind.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Manimal being a good show

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Originally posted by antimason:
yah..it would be a shame for Americans to want ethical, moral and spiritual enlightenment and progress.

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what we need is more technology! after all, science and technology will ultimately solve all the worlds problems!

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we just need to invent a contraption which regulates the human mind, then we'll finally solve those fundemental issues that Man has struggled with for thousands of years, like peace, forgiveness and understanding....

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Defending evolution, before 9-11 happened, was definatly one of my hot button issues. It still is. The sheer nonsense I've had to deal with while 'debating' a literal Young Earth Creationist (YEC) has left me less intelligent than had I never engaged them in the 1st place. They're THAT stupid. What's sad is that through my general interest in paleontology, I've gleaned more info on evolution than I was ever taught in H.S. or college. It's no wonder that so many in our population are left clueless over the topic.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Holocaust never happened, the Lone Gunman was all it took, WMD's being an imminent threat, Manimal being a good show; people will always believe things that ain't true just 'cause it makes 'em feel better, that's all.

Forgiving Chrisisall

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Originally posted by antimason:
yah..it would be a shame for Americans to want ethical, moral and spiritual enlightenment and progress.

what we need is more technology! after all, science and technology will ultimately solve all the worlds problems!

Ps.

we just need to invent a contraption which regulates the human mind, then we'll finally solve those fundemental issues that Man has struggled with for thousands of years, like peace, forgiveness and understanding....

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Originally posted by antimason:
technology is handy to cure diseases....that technology created to begin with.

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Originally posted by antimason:
my friend you are being hypocritical!

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any person, who claims to be religious, yet attempts to bring on armegeddon, is a heretic, hypocrite, and blasphemer.
the Bible says that antiChristian forces bring on Armageddon

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your right, technology is handy to cure diseases....that technology created to begin with. just like we need bigger and better weapons to help win wars for peace..?

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im sure youve all heard "eye for an eye"? Jesus says not to repay evil with evil, but to let God discipline the world.

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Jesus also says Love is the fullfillment of the law, encompassing all other doctrines since one who loves infinitely, does no harm.
given those standards, what ethical code are these destructive maniacs following?

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could it be that they decide for themselves what is right or wrong? with God, we have universal rules we try to follow

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im not saying Man cant have a conscience without God,

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but if man never had such influences, would we ever have progressed beyond survival of the fittest?

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i would pose that the absence of God, and doctrines of Love are the causes of the worlds problems.

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dreamtrove wrote:
Tuesday, August 15, 2006 04:59
Okay, I have to confess I'm still at a loss to what Auraptor's angle is, but maybe he's the libertarian conservative he says he is, and just hasn't caught up with the rest of us on terrorists live in washington.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Antimason,

I don't think Bush really believes, I'm not sure Hilter did, (Stalin and Mao were atheists) but they base their actions on biblical precedent, and it's a book chock full of bad ideas. It's like, America worked for a long time because the founding fathers had good ideas, you fall back on those, you're okay.

I have no problem with the concept of God, but with the political precedent of the bible, which would think that OBL and GWB were just what the deity ordered.

BTW, I'm not convinced Pat Robertson is a believer, I suspect he's a hired gun of the neocon machine, and always has been.

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Hitler was a member of the Thule Gesellschaft, and Bush was a member of Skull and Bones; both were known as the "order of death", both affiliated with eachother from across the Atlantic.

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Freemasonry, it can now be proven, is an occult, Luciferian organization.

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Masonry was respected in America, until the 1820-30's when the Citizens got a true glimpse at the foundation and nature of

Masonry;

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at which point they became persecuted and were forced under ground!

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when they reappeared later in the century, they had formed an outer layer, a visible layer, with diceptive and half true philosophies, to provide a front for the public to once again regain trust

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i believe Americas destiny was the final battleground of good and evil, and is the reason America becomes Mystery Babylon of Revelation.

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we were founded on the principles of religious freedom,

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but were a majority of protestants and christians from the beginning.

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at the same time, Freemasonry, and other occult influences have been present aswell;

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that is the other side of the coin was, as evidence by the all-seeing eye and other Luciferian symbolism.

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we are the richest Christian nation in history, yet we are considered the great Satan by the rest of the world.

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its as if there is an inherent dichotomy, that has always existed, between God and Satan, and they are battling for America

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i would argue that the "bad ideas" of the Bible, are not brought through God, but through defiance of God..

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most noticably, Idolatry and occult worship.

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for example...Israel, of which the whole OT is based, became so submersed in Pagan worship(occult), God essentially cursed them,

removed them from their promised land, and scattered them acrossed the earth. now..because the Bible mentions the actions of the Jews, does that make them actions of God? not neccessarily...Man isnt perfect, therefore Mans history isnt perfect.

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i think its curious that Jesus says "money is the root of many evils" that "you cannot serve two masters; you will love the one and hate the other..; no one can serve both God and money" meanwhile, we have known, proven Satanic symbolism printed on our money! what does that imply? when you look into the Fed, it was founded, among others, by the Rockefellers; a known proponant of the agenda to create a global government.

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to me, that is very telling, since the system of the Beast is a global government, ruled by the antiChrist, which is know as mystery Babylon..or AMERICA! theres a cycle of leads here that always tie in with eachother.

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i would argue that God is real, and his opponent, Satan(Lucifer)and his occult societies, and the false doctrines and heretical beliefs being propogated by them, provide the motive for the nefarious global agendas that can only be described as evil.

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Originally posted by rue:
USers have a strange love of ignorance. It shows up all sorts of places -
- I don't know much about art, but I know what I like
- with all that fancy education
- don't know much about history, don't know much geography ....

It has to do with some notion that the 'common man' - uncivilized, uneducated - is not a, well, lout, but a diamond in the rough. It equates education with being uppity and arrogant, effete, both gullible and corrupt at the same time ... Education got a reprieve after Sputnik when 'hard scientists' got a measure of public respect, but that didn't last long.

And that has to do with one of those chasms of thought so easily spanned in the mind. At one and the same time, the US is a classless society - but built on the integrity of the hardworking lower class. (Though however hard they work, Hispanic maids and farm-workers need not apply. This honest base is white.)

So yeah, the US is in love with all things ignorant - fundamentalist religion (Don't think ! - BELIEVE), poor education, isolationism, narrow thinking, and so on.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

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Hitler was a member of the Thule Gesellschaft, and Bush was a member of Skull and Bones; both were known as the "order of death", both affiliated with eachother from across the Atlantic.

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But to say these characters are creations of those organizations is a stretch. This is very different from Ben Franklin being the head of the Masonic order. The founding fathers were power masons, and they made their relationships through being masons.

Hitler and Bush were opportunist. It's more analogous to the protocols of the ninnies of zion rather than the elders. Hitler joined Thule to get support from german nationalists, not because he was a power player in those circles, same reason he merged his socialist workers into the

National Socialists. He didn't 'come from that circle' he went to that circle to get support, to foward his own career. That's like saying 'John Kerry came from the peace movement' Kerry joined the VatVW to forward his political career. Which is not a new revelation btw, doonesbury said it in 1971 (ish?). So ditto with Bush. GWB was the f^&k up who took daddy's legacy spot at Yale, which daddy thought JEB should have, and georgie screwed it up so bad that no other Bushes were welcome, (why dad and son don't get along perhaps?) Bush joins S&B to forward Bush, just like he joined the Carlyle Group (they said he was the worst jackass they'd ever let in the door. and "here's a guy that after he made a few dumb cracks, walked out the door and you never expected to hear about him again.") But Bush was always jumping up for that career goal, which is just what the Cheney's of the world like. Thule society, in itself, was not evil. Many of the Thule-ites were appalled by what evolved. Skull and Bones people largely go into education or media business. There's not a direct connection between secret societies and evil. Small cabals of intellectual extremist ideologues, short term corrupt cash monkeys, and powermongers collect behind one of these overambitious twits, and make them into a leader. Bush demonstrated in S&B and the like that he was willing to do anything for position, including put stuff on record which would destroy him it ever got out, which is how he's controlled. If you want to be a grima wormtongue, you need GWB.

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Freemasonry, it can now be proven, is an occult, Luciferian organization.

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Hmmm. Masons exist in all cultures, but they are independent of religious affiliation, which I think may be a flaw, but it's also a strength.
There's no questioning that many of the Nazi higher-ups were fringe looney self proclaimed christians, and that they believed that *they* were

the rightful children of Israel. This is what Nazi-ism is all about. They believe that the ancient Israelites were aryans, and that the jews are descendents of canaanites (arabs) who conquered them, took over after the diasporrah or whatever. What all of this anti-secret society stuff gets you to is missing the whole point. There are countless secret societies which don't turn into Nazi Germany. Hundreds. Many states were created by secret societies, including France and the United States.

Taking the counterpoint (and I knew we were going to have this argument eventually, because of your screen-name) I think it is the religion in these loons that makes them loons. I don't think it's the christianity in bush, but it may to some extent be the zionism in some of his supporters, pushes them just enough over the edge so that they can torture the arabs (oh yeah, give me some of that ancestral hatred, baby)

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Masonry was respected in America, until the 1820-30's when the Citizens got a true glimpse at the foundation and nature of

Masonry;

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Masons are only now crumbling today. It's somewhat sad. I think there were flaws in the idea, but I have tremendous respect for them.

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at which point they became persecuted and were forced under ground!

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Not very far. I can still see them.

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when they reappeared later in the century, they had formed an outer layer, a visible layer, with diceptive and half true philosophies, to provide a front for the public to once again regain trust

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It used to be they were Ben Franklin. They kicked out Adam Weishaupt for being a loon, and compared to GWB Weishaupt is stable as a rock (or Iraq?)

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i believe Americas destiny was the final battleground of good and evil, and is the reason America becomes Mystery Babylon of Revelation.

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Not to put to fine a point on it.

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we were founded on the principles of religious freedom,

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Why? because the country was founded by masons, in particular, people who had a lot of respect for the illuminati.

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but were a majority of protestants and christians from the beginning.

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and untold numbers of pagans.

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at the same time, Freemasonry, and other occult influences have been present aswell;

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More than present, many of the founding fathers were masons.

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that is the other side of the coin was, as evidence by the all-seeing eye and other Luciferian symbolism.

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Wait? What makes the illuminati satan? What is satan anyway? Traditional europagans were among our ancestors long before they ever heard of christ, the bible or satan, who btw is a corruption of Seten, which is a form of the Egyptian God Set (if I recall they have different names for god in spirit, god in body etc, but I'm not too clear on the specifics.) But more-over, the christian concept that all the old testement deities are one entity is itself a corruption. Lucifer is the bringer of light, another deity not yhwh. Satan is just a hodge-podge of not-god.

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we are the richest Christian nation in history, yet we are considered the great Satan by the rest of the world.

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So who is right?

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its as if there is an inherent dichotomy, that has always existed, between God and Satan, and they are battling for America

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That's an interesting idea. I'm serious. Myself I see it as a battle between federalists and anti-federalists (confederates)

But who's right and who's wrong, which side is god's? and is that the right side? isn't god evil?

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i would argue that the "bad ideas" of the Bible, are not brought through God, but through defiance of God..

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Ah, this is the rub. This is what makes it an evil book. The whole faith is based on hatred on not-it. The way is the way, and those who do not follow it are lost (Taoism, my faith) but in judeo-christian-islamism, or any of it's members, the side is our side, and if you're not with us you're with the enemy. There's a parallel, sure, but there's also a subtle but important difference.

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most noticably, Idolatry and occult worship.

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paganism is a red herring here. Definitely not evil. There are no pagan genocidal traditions that I've run into in a fairly extensive study of european history, but they're all throughout god's bible, kill 'em all, the lord sees it and it's good.

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for example...Israel, of which the whole OT is based, became so submersed in Pagan worship(occult), God essentially cursed them,

removed them from their promised land, and scattered them acrossed the earth. now..because the Bible mentions the actions of the Jews, does that make them actions of God? not neccessarily...Man isnt perfect, therefore Mans history isnt perfect.

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huh?

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i think its curious that Jesus says "money is the root of many evils" that "you cannot serve two masters; you will love the one and hate the other..; no one can serve both God and money" meanwhile, we have known, proven Satanic symbolism printed on our money! what does that imply? when you look into the Fed, it was founded, among others, by the Rockefellers; a known proponant of the agenda to create a global government.

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the love of money. the illuminati stood in opposition to the catholic church, as an institution. many of its members were undoubtedly christian.

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to me, that is very telling, since the system of the Beast is a global government, ruled by the antiChrist, which is know as mystery Babylon..or AMERICA! theres a cycle of leads here that always tie in with eachother.

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i would argue that God is real, and his opponent, Satan(Lucifer)and his occult societies, and the false doctrines and heretical beliefs being propogated by them, provide the motive for the nefarious global agendas that can only be described as evil.

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there's way too much hate in this rant. occult is not a dark side of your religion, it's not your religion at all, ergo, has nothing to do with you. I'm sure there are occultists here on the forum who aren't just satanists or naughty christians.

The globalist agenda is led by people who are essentially commies (trotsky-shachmanites a kind of commie) so I grant you, they're not real christians. but they're not pagan occultists, and if they were masons, the masons would be doing a lot better than they are. the masons are folding right now. It's a shame to lose such a fine american institution, but then, all of america is for sale.

I think you've narrowed your focus on the duck flying overhead, and you are totally missing the rampaging bear headed at you.

There's a piece of truth in the part of puzzle you're unravelling, but the part of faith which is not yours is also not evil. Witchcraft is not devil worship, and devil worship is not the guiding princple in any power circles on the earth. God and his followers have done much more damage than satanists ever have, all that satanists have committed is wearing heavy mascara and listening to extremely silly music.

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Originally posted by antimason:
Sevenpercent=
no God exists, therefore no evil exists, and everybody on earth acts morally, or immorally, based on their own personal opinions of ethics.

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i hear this a lot from non-believers...im constantly told .."there is no Satan, people choose to do bad things out of their own will"
right here is precisely the hypocracy!

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whether God exists or not, everybody acts of their own free will! so what makes these alleged "Christians" in power any different? are you suggesting theyre acting on behalf of God?

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...meanwhile your telling me that the absence of God, ultimate human free will, would prevent, or solve all these problems?

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=one person is God fearing, and they believe there are eternal consequences for their choices, therefore they treat everyone as they would want to be treated.
=there is another person who decides for himself what is right and wrong, and does not fear any consequences, outside of the law

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your telling me the devout Christians, God fearing, are responsible for the immoral actions of society?

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but no faithful believer would do such inexplicable things to another

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"an eye for an eye" refers to legal matters, justice and social equality; it is not condoning revenge or malice.

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Jesus says "if someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to him the other", because God is the only person fit to judge.

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so lets look at the world: your trying to tell me that religious beliefs are the root cause of these peoples evils.

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Originally posted by antimason:
seventypercent--

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im not sure why you are arguing with me then if you are a believer?

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did i say the earth was only 6k years old? did i say that Satan encompasses all the mythical deities? i didnt

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first off, what im saying is that if you believe God exists, then you better believe Lucifer does aswell, and the Bible says that the world is of him, and that he has dark forces and rulers working on his behalf

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so to deny the occult evidence, is to deny that anything at all is happening by intent; and thats contrary to the Bible

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what i am expressing to you is that God, if youll admit he exists,

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specifically chose Abraham, and Israel for a reason, which was to bring about the law, and the belief in a single all powerfull God. God chose a people to maintain his beliefs, the Jews, and later Jesus was born, and as a fullfillment of the jewish law, is Mans redeemer.

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think about the Bible for a second

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there is a fundemental point that we are trying to get acrossed to the world, which is to be a christian is to conform to the likeness of Jesus. there is nothing selfish or impure about him

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if you are a Christian, then how could you possibly claim that Man never needed Gods word on earth? that is contradictory to the entire message of the bible

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unless you dont believe God exists

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7%: It's not seventypercent, it's Sevenpercent - It's a firefly reference, not an independent number.

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7%: Because you used this forum to launch an attack on science, and have never come back to answer any question I posited to you. You said that technology was bad, and it has caused problems (like created diseases), and that religion was the answer. I asked you to prove that tech was bad, because I - as a believer - don't think it is. You never came back to the questions in my initial post, you kept changing the subject slightly to avoid them. I'm arguing with you because I think you are a fundie, and I think fundies are generally idiots and fanatics, and am waiting for you to prove otherwise.

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7%: Are you a believer in the literal word of God? Then you believe the world is 6k years old. I'm not sure where the hell "Satan as everygod" came from, but I'm not going to try to find out, either.

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7%: What evidence? You have to have multiple sources to claim evidence of that nature - you can't just say "the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." That's faulty logic.

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antimason:
specifically chose Abraham, and Israel for a reason, which was to bring about the law, and the belief in a single all powerfull God. God chose a people to maintain his beliefs, the Jews, and later Jesus was born, and as a fullfillment of the jewish law, is Mans redeemer.

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7%: Which may or may not be a metaphor.

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antimason: think about the Bible for a second

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7%: I can't not, with you in this thread.

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antimason: to be a christian is to conform to the likeness of Jesus.

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Woah, blonde earth coming up.

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7%: Is your reading comprehension THAT bad? I am in agreement with this. Yet, evangelical Christians believe that what they are doing is in the likeness of Jesus and in Jesus' name. I dared you last post to denounce them all. I double dare oyu in this one. Bet you won't do it. Start with Bush, the Dominionists, work your way through Robertson, Falwell, and the rest, on into the megachurches, Ralph Reed, and all the rest.

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You really nailed it.

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antimason: if you are a Christian, then how could you possibly claim that Man never needed Gods word on earth? that is contradictory to the entire message of the bible

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I have an idea. I've said it already, but here it is again. What if someone believes in Jesus, but not in God yhwh, whatever. There are people in India who worship a muslim and don't believe in allah. I follow the teachings of Lao Tse, but I don't get a bonus deity. There's a pit of a baradox in christianity (or even a bit of a paradox) which is that to buy into the beliefs of the great peacemaker, you have to take all of the prophets before him, plus worship the God of War. Doesn't this strike someone as inconsistant? How about a new religion, Chist-only-ianity. Follow Jesus, and maybe what came after but *not* worship the god of war?

I, as a Christian, believe man needs God's word on earth as a teacher of the way. The spiritual way. But you can act in a Christian manner without needing a spiritual mentor. Tell me, Anti, who is the better person - the man who accepts Jesus as the savior, then kicks poor people and bombs his neighbor (then asks for forgiveness every week); or the scientific atheist, who genetically modifies crops so that all may eat, as well as works to cure disease so that all may live without pain (who never asks for anything in return? I know who I think it is, but from your posts I'm not sure who you'd say.

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antimason: unless you dont believe God exists

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7%: I'll let that one go without a sarcastic response.

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You will?
How about...
'I dunno, do you have his cellphone #?'
I can butt in, because that's what I'm doing here, butting in and wasting everyone's time. btw, I don't believe God exists.
or maybe, 'i don't believe your god exists, just mine' or perhaps, 'does he believe I exist?'

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
lol. threadbump.

If two combatants have a threadbumping exchange which continues, then it's a threadmire.

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Sevenpercent= i never said i was against science

to answer your question about technology, i dont neccessarily believe its evil, but i dont think its being applied properly either.

for example= am i denying that modern medical science has its benefits? no.. but do i think drugs that medical industries push do more harm than good. wouldnt preventitive care, like a healthy deit and living habits do more for us?

it seems to me that Man has always had everything he needed from the first day of creation; does that mean i dont accept that God gave us a brain and intelligence for reason? no, but in what way is technology bridging the crucial gaps of society?

genetically modified food? whats wrong with natural, God grown food? we wouldnt have hunger problems if corrupt people werent creating these situations. and thats how i feel about most technology..i think its useful if its used right, but human nature has proven to mismanage it..and in that case i think its become a burden in many ways.

i dont hate science..its good for us to know how the world and its laws operate. but i believe God gives us equal truths aswell. and i do believe mind over matter..because Jesus said that we too could walk on water if we only had faith; and i think that will be part of our redemption.

and ultimately, it will just inslave us.

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Originally posted by Dreamtrove:
You really nailed it.

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