Quote:

---

Originally posted by antimason:
if the #1 commandment according to Jesus(God manifest) was "love your neighbor as yourself. for love does no harm", how can you truly claim their actions to be Christian? is not the saying "actions speak louder than words?"

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SoupCatcher:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by antimason:
if the #1 commandment according to Jesus(God manifest) was "love your neighbor as yourself. for love does no harm", how can you truly claim their actions to be Christian? is not the saying "actions speak louder than words?"

---

Just a nitpick Second, not first. Give a quick re-read to Matthew. This is one of the stories that I thought was pretty cool.

Okay, back to lurking on this thread. My childhood fundie took over for a second.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by citizen:
I thought that's what I did when I said "it almost seems like"?

---

Quote:

---

I see your sentiment, but not everyone can be a monk, and surely an individual like a monk or a priest who devotes their life to the understanding of these matters will have something to teach those of us who don't have the time or even the inclination to devote that sort of time to those pursuits? Would they not be able to help us, could they not have gained some insight that we may not be able to gain simply because they devote their entire life to these issues where as we do not?

---

Quote:

---

Well the three Abrahamic religions trace their routes back to the cult of a Canaanite war god, so it's hardly surprising to me that they all share a certain darkness. But they aren't the only religions in the world, Buddhism is a religion for instance, I'm not sure we can condemn religion on the example of the Abrahamic.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
HK

Non-human intelligence is not paranormal. In fact it's amazingly normal. Humans are not the most intelligent animal on the earth, and on occassion they become very run of the mill.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Dreamtrove:
Non-human intelligence is not paranormal.

---

Quote:

---

Humans are not the most intelligent animal on the earth, and on occassion they become very run of the mill.

---

Quote:

---

On the beach where I vacation there's a beautiful sculpture of an egret, oit of an oyster bed, which was at least allegedly made by the egrets who live there, and I see no reason to doubt it.

---

Quote:

---

There are countless examples in nature or representitive art, communication etc.

---

Quote:

---

If all ants talk to other ants, eventually what ants do on one side of the world will resemble those the other side.

---

Quote:

---

You add their brain masses together and it way outweighs ours.

---

Quote:

---

Dogs have been on the brain decline a little longer, 100-150,000 years. At the moment when dogs and humans created their relationship, humans were near a low, and dogs were at a high, and brain-bodyweight indicates that at the time, about 100,000 years ago, dogs were smarter than people.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the beach where I vacation there's a beautiful sculpture of an egret, oit of an oyster bed, which was at least allegedly made by the egrets who live there, and I see no reason to doubt it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uhuh and Fionn mac Cumhail really did build the giants causeway.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Hey, Antimason,

History also teaches us that millennarianism has cropped up at least every hundred years and once for every major war since Jesus walked. So history shows that for the past 2 thousand years folks have talked exactly the way you talk and they were all--every last one of them--wrong.

Every one of them thought that the social uphevals of their day constituted the entrance into the tribulation, and they were quite mistaken. What makes your millennarianism better than theirs? Surely they knew their Bible, surely they were good Christians, what made them so wrong and you so right?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

---

Quote:

---

excerpted from http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/2/6/15390/88821
Today, many ideas, concepts, and frames of reference in modern American society are legacies of the history of Protestantism as it divided and morphed through Calvinism, revivalist evangelicalism, and fundamentalism.

Even people who see themselves as secular and not religious often unconsciously adopt many of these historic cultural legacies while thinking of their ideas as simply "common sense."

What is "common sense" for one group, however, is foolish belief for another. According to author George Lakoff, a linguist who studies the linkage between rhetoric and ideas, there is a tremendous gulf between what conservatives and liberals think of as common sense, especially when it comes to issues of moral values.

In his book Moral Politics, which has gained attention in both media and public debates, Lakoff argues that conservatives base their moral views of social policy on a "Strict Father" model, while liberals base their views on a "Nurturant Parent" model.

According to Axel R. Schaefer, there are three main ideological tendencies in U.S. social reform:

• Liberal/Progressive: based on changing systems and institutions to change individual behavior on a collective basis over time.

• Calvinist/Free Market: based on changing individual social behavior through punishment.

• Evangelical/Revivalist: based on born again conversion to change individual behavior, but still linked to some Calvinist ideas of punishment.
...

---

Quote:

---

excerpted from http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/08/cracks-in-wall-part-ii-listening-
to.html
... We know, for example, that fear can transform the behavior of otherwise rational and not particularly authoritarian people. Fear creates physiological changes that impair the brain's ability to reason, and drives people to fall in behind whatever leader presents himself without asking too many questions. Like all herd animals, we are biologically driven to close ranks tightly behind the alpha in times of trouble. Resisting that impulse sometimes means fighting our own evolutionary imperatives. And, as we are now too well aware, unscrupulous leaders will not hesitate to create, manipulate, and perpetuate fear in order to activate that instinct and keep their followers at heel.

Thus, some people who've never been natural followers sometimes get caught up in authoritarian religion and politics in the wake of deep personal losses: unemployment, divorce, a death in the family, arrest, and so on. Entire populations (or, at least, a good fraction of the whole) can take the same path when faced with large collective losses. Kevin Phillips, in American Theocracy,, points out that the South's authoritarian streak (which always ran deep) grew rigid and hard after their loss in the Civil War. Karen Armstrong, in The Battle for God, points out that fundamentalist movements commonly begin in communities that perceive themselves under economic, political, or geographic siege. The way America came together under FDR after Pearl Harbor is the stuff of national legend. And the Bush Administration has exploited this tendency shamelessly in the wake of 9/11.

Cut loose from our moorings, in over our heads, we all look for something solid to hold onto. No matter how strong we are, we've all got areas where we are brittle and vulnerable. It's hard for any of us to say for sure that we'd walk away from an authoritarian leader who promised us precisely the right kind of salvation in precisely the wrong moment. This is something to bear in mind whenever we deal with authoritarian followers: they have simply responded to an impulse that exists -- at least to some degree -- in all of us.
...

---

Quote:

---

HK--
the tribulation, and the reign of the beast identify the last 7 years of the age. since the Jews are Gods people, the antiChrists goal is to decieve them into worshipping him as their messiah. during this period, the Jews will once again resume sacrifices on the temple mount, and 3 1/2 years into the treaty with Israel, the deal is broken, the sacrifices stop, and an "abomination" is set up on the temple; whatever the sequence to these events, i think this event may alert the world to the reality of the antiChrist, but will be to late at this point.

well, in order for this to happen, the Jews had to reclaim the land, and establish Israeli sovereignty once again; and after that, they had to rebuild the temple. these events were to directly proceed the final generation.

name a time that the Jews had a nation before 1948?

and now the Jews have the temples designs retrofitted and ready to be put in place

if America is indeed mystery Babylon, than it will be us who pushes for this global government that is to become the beast.

Israel is, by proxy, our lil superpower...maybe its in anticipation for Americas future messiah?

with this "war on terror", and the progression of the national security apparatus, ID scanners etc, America for the first time is officially threatened with a permanant loss of liberty.

name a time in America, let alone the history of the world, when man possessed the technology to track global trade on an individual basis, to the extent that no one can buy or sell without recieving a mark, or identification?

without getting into every detail, i repeat- no time, before 1948, was the right time, because the circumstances werent right!

but now we have prophecies from Jeremiah, Daniel and Ezekial with the potential to be fullfilled, most of which proceed or define the end of the age. one notable prophecy is in Daniel, which deals specifically with Persia, or modern day Iran, and Israel, aswell as the antiChrist and his rise to power during the tribulation

im not saying i know the exact day, but Jesus said that when the time drew near, we would see the signs and know that our redemption draws close

the bible also says:
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

well, if we have known evidence about the elite, manipulating world markets, plotting and scheming for control, along with proven occult secret societies whos members make up a significant portion of this group; including current "Christian" politicians and there agressive world views, then i think we should draw some parallels already

the key is all this is to realize that there really is a "nwo" agenda

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
When I look at this



I see mexicans with too much time on their hands.

---

Quote:

---

The basic gist of my explanation is that there are two separate and contradictory creation stories in the book of Genesis.

The first creation story documents how all the Gods and Goddesses gathered together and performed the Great Creation, the 7 day create-a-thon, which culminated in Them creating men and women together as equals, and giving them “dominion over the birds of the air, the fish of the sea, the beasts of the earth,” etc. This is the famous “Let US create man in OUR image, in OUR likeness,” quote. It’s the only time the bible uses the plural in reference to god, so don’t try to explain it as the royal “we” since it’s not used anywhere else.

Now skip ahead a bit, and we get to the second creation, in which a single god goes off by himself in secret and creates a man and a woman (no where does it say Adam and Eve were the first ones). These poor, less than perfect beings were never given dominion over anything, and were created with the sole purpose of worshiping this single vain god.

This also explains why when Cain slays his brother Able, there is an entire city for him to run off to. This city is populated by the children of the first creation, who took pity on this poor lost soul and welcomed him into their community, where he proceeded to spread his own “original sin” throughout the population via his descendants.

Since the descendants of the second creation have no dominion over the earth, when we children of the original population demonstrate our God and Goddess given abilities we are labeled as witches and burned at the stake by the jealous children of the second.

The Pagans are the original population, and the Christians (descendants of Adam and Eve) came later with lesser abilities. This is all according to their own bible.

There’s a lot more to it, and many more examples of the True Gods being above the petty single god (the one who lied to Adam and Eve in the garden - the snake actually told the truth!), but that’s the basic gist of the explanation.

We are the true people. We are the way. So says their own bible.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Antimason,

I know the whole millennial gig, believe me. I know about Jerusalem and the 7 years of tribulation. I know what millenarians say today. My question was how could all these other folks for the past 2 thousand years be so dead wrong? They read the same Bible you do, so how did they miss all this stuff you list? Every hundred years for 2 thousand years, there have been enough apparent fulfillments of prophecy to convince many Christians that Antichrist was upon them.

---

Quote:

---

antimason, I have a serious question for you: do you want us to be afraid? Do you think Christ wants us to be afraid?

And I'm curious, have you investigated the socalled "Third Secret of Fatima" at all?.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by antimason:
well..im not quite sure how to answer that, because i wasnt with them, and im not sure what they were basing their beliefs off of.

---

Quote:

---

are you arguing that we're no different now, with 6 billion people on earth, then when the earth only possessed a few hundred million people?

---

Quote:

---

heres another thing that both you HK, and Kanemen deny, and that is the presence of the occult and their NWO agenda.

---

Quote:

---

maybe i should ask why youre afraid? is it because this pre-tribulation rapture is proving to be wishful thinking? is it because you support Bush, therefore you are you supporting the agenda of Mystery Babylon?

---

Quote:

---

brother id rather you know the truth, and change your ways and distance yourself from the Christians who think America is Gods chosen people, and will float away in the clouds safe and sound before all the rough stuff happens on earth; cause thats a lie!

---

Quote:

---

as for the thrid secret of fatima, i recall the story vaguely from awhile back...i did a little reading on it just now, but im not sure what the question is? tell me your opinion, and ill respond when i know what you want to know for sure. what i do know is that Satan and his fallen angels will return in the end to help decieve mankind, and usher in this global religion based on Lucifer

---

Quote:

---

Ah, you crazy and very ill-informed. Thing's big as a football field and mathematically accurate down to inches. And these things happen in a matter of minutes and no one--no one--has ever caught your mexicans in the act. A couple guys with boards hoaxing could not pull this off.

---

Quote:

---

Also, DT, you need to understand that the plants that have been bent have not been broken but continue to grow. Try that with a board tied to your leg.

---

Quote:

---

Mexicans. You see, Antimason, people are devoted to their belief systems first. Any rational justification is just an afterthought to make their cherished beliefs sound good.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by nanite1018:
Help me Antimason:

Who is this Antichrist? What's he gonna do (supposedly, since i am an atheist and don't think there is any such thing)? What are these signs you talk about? Sorry, but i don't really now much about Revelation stuff and all of the prophecies, except that he's supposed to be in power 7 years and rule the world. Other than that, i got nuthin'.

Sorry if you answered those earlier i just don't feel like reading the other posts, sorry.

---

Quote:

---

Man becoming gods ...HA! [note the little g]

If man kind were ever able to become gods then we would have a whole lots of gods fighting over who was the best god and sooner or later one god would figure out how to make all the other gods disappear.....but if every one was a god then every one would already know every thing so we would know how to do anything...whow! boogles the mind dont it?

Theres goes that "leap of logic" of mine again....

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Quote:

---

Ah, you crazy and very ill-informed. Thing's big as a football field and mathematically accurate down to inches. And these things happen in a matter of minutes and no one--no one--has ever caught your mexicans in the act. A couple guys with boards hoaxing could not pull this off.

---

what a load of bull

Quote:

---

Also, DT, you need to understand that the plants that have been bent have not been broken but continue to grow. Try that with a board tied to your leg.

---

Huh? I'm a farmer remember.

Quote:

---

Mexicans. You see, Antimason, people are devoted to their belief systems first. Any rational justification is just an afterthought to make their cherished beliefs sound good.

---

I knew the PC police would give me a hard time. Mexicans. Farm. they do, I've seen 'em do it. is it a sterotype, sure. Do I have anything against Mexicans? absolutely not. Viva Mexico, etc. I don't know what you're problem with Mexicans is that you don't think they're capable of this :)

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:
Oh HK,

I was curious. You were interested in what atheists find comfort in*. Did you feel you got an understandable answer?

* Yes, I know, this is a dangling participle. But I see it everywhere - in national newspapers and magazines etc. So I guess I'm so old standard English has changed since I learned it in school.

---

Quote:

---

no fossil evidence has been recovered.

---

Quote:

---

are you saying you cant prove a murder case by using eye witness accounts?

---

Quote:

---

so what exactly is the Bible, and the numerous third person accounts of a historical Jesus, and the miracles he performed?

---

Quote:

---

it is not hard to prove that Jesus existed, and died on the cross

---

Quote:

---

..or that hundreds of people witnessed his ressurection,

---

Quote:

---

to the extent that they were murdered and pursued ruthlessly by the Romans for their beliefs.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by antimason:
if there were a God which created the universe, what would you expect such an entity or force to look like?...

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Ah, you crazy and very ill-informed. Thing's big as a football field and mathematically accurate down to inches. And these things happen in a matter of minutes and no one--no one--has ever caught your mexicans in the act. A couple guys with boards hoaxing could not pull this off.

Also, DT, you need to understand that the plants that have been bent have not been broken but continue to grow. Try that with a board tied to your leg.

---

Quote:

---

I know this thread is "sooooo last week"

---

Quote:

---

but I couldn't leave this misunderstanding between us hanging. The main thing I didn't appreciate about your "mexicans" comment was not that it offended my P.C. sensibilities, but was how completely dismissive you were of my position.

---

Quote:

---

It's as if I'd come back from Cairo and was talking about how amazing the Pyramids were and you told me, "Not really, my little brother and I used to build 'em in the backyard when we were kids."

---

Quote:

---

I might shake my head in dismay and repeat the words "little brother" not because you used the prejudicial modifier "little" but because of how trivial you made my experiences out to be.

---

Quote:

---

You know, I was very disappointed that you would dismiss me like that on what I assume is little or no evidence whatever.

---

Quote:

---

I found it profoundly ironic that you, who are willing to see beyond the "official story" of 9/11 to some pretty hard to imagine criminal conspiracies,

---

Quote:

---

would simply trash my comments and supply the most dismissive "official story" as if you were the AURaptor of metaphysics.

---

Quote:

---

But I know you aren't responsible for our entire culture's dismissal of these things which interest me and I shouldn't take it out on you. Sorry.

---

Quote:

---

P.S.: If you should ever have the chance to check out any crop circles, I encourage you to see one up close and personal, from up close they really are hard to dismiss.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by antimason:
im not sure anyone can disprove that it is atleast a possibility, so why deny everything that supports such a theory, such as Jesus' resurrection?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by antimason:
basically what your saying is that the Bible is just a book; and i think that is an insult to people who are theologians and scholars, that have spent their lives investigating the merits and evidence for our belief, for someone to just dismiss everything, as if they themselves are all knowing. i atleast acknowledge the role evolution plays

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by canttakesky:
My current position is that many of them have been proven to be manmade, so it isn't a stretch to imagine that they are ALL manmade--just haven't caught the perps yet.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by canttakesky:
As far as "unexplainable" features like having it made in minutes and without breaking the stalks, I think those questions do not necessarily exclude manmade explanations. Edward Leedskalin moved an entire castle made out of tons of coral rock in a single night, on a pickup truck. There are people out there who know these secrets--it is conceivable that someone with such knowledge made some of these more advanced circles.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by canttakesky:
However, that doesn't mean I can't be wrong. Do you have any favorite websites that provide support for paranormal explanations. I'd like to read up and see what the other side says. Thanks.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
It's all too easy for people to go from "plausible" to "probable" without even noticing. All too often the next step is "case closed." "Plausible," what seems reasonable, is nothing but prejudice.

---

Quote:

---

Any time we start with "plausible" we remove a thousand possibilities.

---