REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Open war - a poll

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Thursday, September 21, 2006 12:20
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Monday, September 11, 2006 4:49 PM

DREAMTROVE


Okay, this is my 9.11 thread.

The short of it, I was drawing a sketch, and someone came in and said "you've gotta see this." I did the unity thing.

A year later, I showed up at the first aniversary with candles, as did everyone else, even though it was not announced. Spontaneous and beautiful, some girl sung that sarah mclaughlin song "angel" acapella with the unmodified words.

Now time has passed, 5 years, and I have to ask. Who does it serve? Unity has become blind support for the radical agenda. You want to feel something? feel anger. Someone has used this as a devisive tool to insight violence, and it is the same people who perpetrated that initial violence. Who ever that is, virtually everyone see that the escalation of further violence was at least part of the goal, as it is with any act of war.

So, here's the question.

Who do you blame?

I've selected out the list of all the possible, plausible parties who might have been responsible in the various combinations that I've heard:

1. Osama bin Laden conspired with Al Qaeda to attack America from outside, and had no help from within the united states.

2. Osama bin Laden conspired with members of Al Qaeda, include al qaeda operatives with no connection to the US govt. but were american citizens inside the united states other than the famed 9-11 hijackers.

3. Osama bin Laden and members of Al Qaeda both outside and in the United States included al qaeda operatives who had infiltrated the US govt attacked America, and cleared the way for the attack.

4. Osama bin Laden and members of Al Qaeda attacked America, and were unbeknownst to them, aided by silent partners from within the US govt. who saw political advantage in allowing the attacks to occur.

5. Muslim terrorists with no direct connection to Osama bin Laden attacked America, and were aided by silent partners within our own govt.

6. Members within the US govt. deliberately conspired with Al Qaeda and/or Osama bin Laden to orchestrate the attacks.

7. Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda had no part in the attacks, which were planned and executed from within the united states with the use of either gullible terrorists or remote control devices.

8. Other, someone who was not Osama bin Laden, Al Qaeda, or a member of the US govt. planned the September 11th attacks.

Without attacking one another, if we can, just to throw this out here. I think that a lot of people have probably looked pretty far into this topic, and have an opinion, or a hunch.

If we blame different people, and I'm sure we do, then the focus of our anger will be different. Much of the other political debate becomes somewhat moot. For example, what does it matter if the US controls Afganistan if there is no connection to 9/11?

Myself I'll take a wide sweep and say that my choice would be at least 3 and no higher than 7. Somewhere in that range. Probably 4 or 5, but not locked in to those two.




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Monday, September 11, 2006 9:18 PM

OLDENGLANDDRY


I dont believe that there was a deliberate conspiracy within our (U.S and U.K. ) governments to actually perpetrate the 9/11 attacks. I do believe, however that our governments probably knew that the attacks were going to happen and chose to do nothing about it in order to further a long term goal: the war on terror, which enables them (our leaders, left and right) to say "hey look, we have to remain in charge to protect you from these evil people, and by the way, we also have to take away certain of your own freedoms so we can do that job more efficiently".
As to who actually perpetrated the attacks, it was probably members of a loose coalition of terrorist groups who managed to get their act together for once and took advantage of lax airport and air-space security; basically things went their way on the day. These groups did'nt become known as Al-Qaeida untill after 9/11.
So, now, five years later we have a common enemy for our leaders (left and right, it does'nt matter) to wave a stick at and reasons for our leaders to use that same stick to beat Joe Public with.
But as long as there is plenty of good stuff on TV everything is OK.

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 3:26 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


DT -

You left out a couple.

9. The Israelis did it to harden US opinion against the Palestinians.


10. The unconscious collective psyche of millions of conspiracy theorists, tired of endlessly rehashing the Kennedy assassination and the 'fake' moon landings, overpowers the minds of a random group of Muslims and causes them to plot the 9/11 attack, thereby giving the conspiracy theory world nearly endless new ground to cover.

Myself, I think it was #1, with a slight possibility of #2.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 5:15 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:


2. Osama bin Laden conspired with members of Al Qaeda, include al qaeda operatives with no connection to the US govt. but were american citizens inside the united states other than the famed 9-11 hijackers.



Of the choices, I go with this.
I love conspiracy theories, but sheer corporate style government ineptness and confusion accounts for most of it on our side of the pond for me.
Sure, they had cells in place, and certain U.S. higher-ups might have really known what was probably coming, but nothing you could call a 'grand plan'.

That's my story Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 11:58 AM

DREAMTROVE


Geezer, #8 covers all alternatives, I've heard two to date, one is mossad, which is a favorite in europe, and I'd guess has fair popularity in the ME, and the other was democrats and republicans who weren't the administration but had an interest in passing the patriot act.

I gave geezer a 1.2 and I think oed was a 4, as was i, so with chris' 2 that that makes us 11.2/4 or 2.8.

So far.

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 2:27 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
But as long as there is plenty of good stuff on TV everything is OK.
Yeah but they cancelled firefly.


More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, September 12, 2006 3:43 PM

MISBEHAVEN


I don't think there's any sort of active collusion on the part of the U.S. government and Al-Qaeda (at least I hope there's not), but I can certainly envision our government standing passively by and allowing the attacks to occur in order to launch the "War on Terror." After all, it's a big money maker for the military-industrial complex.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Wednesday, September 13, 2006 2:35 AM

ARCLIGHT


First of all it wasn't Al Qaeda. Al had nothing to do with it. It was his brother, Richard Qaeda, thats been causing all this trouble.
So, with that one amendment, my vote is 1.

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Wednesday, September 13, 2006 3:56 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


1

And certainly nothing past 2.


Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, September 13, 2006 5:17 AM

FELLOWTRAVELER


I would have to go with 1 or 2. It's not that I think the government is above doing these things, but to inept to do them and keep it quiet.

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Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:15 AM

SOUPCATCHER


I'm in the, "strong 1, slight 2 and no higher," camp.

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Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:47 AM

SIMONWHO


Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
But as long as there is plenty of good stuff on TV everything is OK.
Yeah but they cancelled firefly.


They did? When did that happen?

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Wednesday, September 13, 2006 12:12 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


dbl plus un-good

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Wednesday, September 13, 2006 12:14 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I'd go with 4. It explains why the USPATRIOT Act was written before the attacks. I don't think it was specific. More like a pointed laxity in alertness and preparation.

Que sera, sera -
Whatever will be, will be.
The future's not ours, to see.
Que sera, sera.

I guess it's a version of LIHOP (let it happen on purpose), but modified as 'let SOMETHING happen, by accident, on purpose'. BTW, Bush, as per SOP, was out of the loop.

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Wednesday, September 13, 2006 4:38 PM

DREAMTROVE


Rue,

We agree on something!

I see an awful lot of 1s and 2s. I think there's a pretty big break between the 'let it happen' crowd and the 'long gunman' crowd. I think they outnumber us 2:1. Which doesn't make them right, only more numerous. Back when the holocaust was happening a solid 95% of the people thought it wasn't happening.

But it was informative. I expected people to be all over the map. but mostly it was 1..2ers vs. 4ers

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Wednesday, September 13, 2006 5:14 PM

CHRISMOORHEAD


It's become nearly pointless to condem anyone for the attacks. A sad part of having a government as large as ours is that there will always be parts of it that we don't know exist doing things that we're not aware of. And if they screw up or do somethign underhanded, they'll likely shift the blame. Being civilians, we will never know, no matter how many questions we ask.

If you choose to operate and partake in any body of people who are governed over, you're going to have to learn to live with this to some degree and follow in the trust that, at the very least, your elected officials are not going to run the country into the ground. For all they do that's wrong and unjust, they're still attempting to act in the best interests of the nation as a whole, because even if they're interested in personal gain, where's the profit in letting the country you live in be destroyed?

And so here we are. The government has designated an enemy. You can accept it, and risk fighting an innocent country. Or you can deny it, and rant about how our government's wrong and about the atrocities they've commited. The latter is not actually going to get anything done. The only thing that's going to produce results at this point is action. Against the government or for it, taking up arms is really the only courses of action that could get anything done. Obviously, it's laughable to think that you could ever get a big enough backing to fight our own government, and they've certainly scared the crap out of us enough to the point where even mentioning it sounds crazy. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if I get negative responses on this thread just for mentioning it. And so, the only real... logical choices are to participate, or not. Sounding off wont do you a single bit of good, so you can either act or ignore. I've seen documentaries and heard conspirists spouting off this and that, and I've yet to see them get anything done.

The problem with a lot of people who choose to act is that they judge. Those people, who've accepted the enemy that the government has designated for us, are not content to be fighting simply because we're at risk. They turn it into a battle of good and evil, which is a dangerous and stupid thing to do. You do NOT judge your enemies, not on a morale basis. They're doing what they beleive is right for them. If it conflicts with you, you fight them because you beleive it is right for you. And that it simply where it ends.

Blame? We need to stop looking for blame. Solutions is what we need.

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Wednesday, September 13, 2006 8:50 PM

ANTIMASON


im going with 6, maybe higher

for starters, the attacks of 9.11 werent just out of the blue. incompetency (in hindsight)was a clever excuse, but it doesnt match the facts; its known that insider tradings envolving United and American(which were hit hard after 9/11), took place prior to the attacks..linked to CIA members, there were a ton(apparently 28 http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/SMI402A.html ) (of)warnings eluding to the attacks, including a certain FBI agent who was repeatedly restricted by "higher ups" from pursuing alqaeda trails http://www.infowars.com/sept11_archive.htm

we all know the saying "politics is diception", so the truth of 9.11 would never be publicly acknowledged by those envolved; just like the JFK assasination, just like Pearl Harbor, just like anything. so far who is being the most truthfull? - we are atleast giving answeres that the government has classified or withheld ommitted distorted or fabricated;we have nothing to hide.. they hid the pentagon images, no one has ever seen the obligatory airplane reconstruction from it or PA; they shipped away the tower wreckage; they classifieds FAA recordings, gag ordered firemen... i mean why? whatever the reason Bushs been classifying documents like Nixon on crack; common sense says theyre HIDING SOMETHING!

is it just a coincidence that almost all the cabinet members are affiliated with corporations benefitting* from current policy, like Halliburton and Lockheed Martin? soo many Americans have profitted politically from 9.11 that its amazing NO ONE has been held accountable for all these alleged "massive incompetencies and failures" that day; given the evidence to the contrary

did it just turn out the their were no WMDs, and the Iraq/Alqaeda connection was weak? or was the entire "war on terror" agenda a front for something even longer in the making? when you accept their lies, and consume their rhetoric and propoganda, they then convince you to give them bigger budgets "so this wont happen again!"; but when it does, they just get more power, more money and and more control; so they have incentive

i believe that among foreign elements, alqaeda is being discreetly financed by the central banks and their front groups (the Federal Reserve, CFR, Tri-Lateral commission, Pentagon)along with the CIA, inflaming and orchestrating political events by engineered operations designed to create instability.

when they talk about Iraq and "freedom" and "democracy", what is being created are catalysts to enslave a populace through debt to private central banks and their corporate prostitutes. a good link on how this works - http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/denemcgriff/in_search_of_babylo
n_ch12.htm

if we are hated, it is because multi national corporations and governments exploit soveriegn citizens and create imbalances of wealth in the world; but it is our system of central banks wich are responsible, and our culture promotes and supports this darwinian capatalist afront

this is also another reason why the CFR is a major proponant of NAFTA and the super highway http://www.infowars.com/articles/nwo/nafta_superhighway_bush_admin_sec
ret_plan.htm which will virtually abolish soveriengty and legitimate national security. since the agenda is a NWO global government, the "war on terror", "global warming" "peak oil" "overpopulation" ...these are all elaborate political tactics to establish these mechanisms to allow for this top down, micro managed big brother survelience society that we are destined for

the Americans envolved in 9.11 are no different then the CEOs who sell out their workers for bigger salaries and bonuses; it is to create an un-penetrable divide between the rich and poor; to envelope and monopolize all world assetts, and to rule the lower classes as global overlords, entitled to complete, unquestioned authority and privelage.








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Saturday, September 16, 2006 10:37 AM

DREAMTROVE


Chrismoorhead

The profit would be in the war. And the civil liberty destruction the big budgets, etc.

I am pretty much certain that the people who run this country at the executive level don't give a damn about what's best for america. I actually think the last president for whom it was the top concern was Richard Nixon, and the last one for whom it was any concern at all was probably GHB, but maybe Reagan.

As for not getting anything done, protests, all of it, no one is getting anything done.

As for fighting the govt., the pen is mightier than the sword, and also more legal.

Neocons didn't get elected, they overthrew america. It's just a different arsenal.



Antimason,

Thanks for the 6, that will drive things up again.

Quote:
just like Pearl Harbor,


There's nothing in this claim. It's a rumor. I dug and dug. There was half an hour from the time the captain sunk the japanese sub and when pearl harbor was attacked. In that time, the captain radio'ed the base, told him he'd come across a japanese sub, thought it was going to shoot him, and panicked and sunk the japanese sub.

The base commander made the judgement that the base should be evacuated before a retaliation occurred. He didn't have the authority to do it without an okay from the pentagon. He radio'ed in, and got a message to the deputy secretary of defense. The deputy secretary of defense went looking for the secretary of defense, who was taking a day off. He found him in the park and asked whether they should consult the president.

At this point, the bombs hit pearl harbor. There's really no conspiracy here, it's our govt., which cannot not respond in 30 minutes. There's a chain of command, and people are often difficult to reach. The fantasy "all day on a log" story doesn't fly because there wasn't an all day to have, there was only 30 minutes.

Quote:
i believe that among foreign elements, alqaeda is being discreetly financed by the central banks and their front groups (the Federal Reserve, CFR, Tri-Lateral commission, Pentagon)along with the CIA, inflaming and orchestrating political events by engineered operations designed to create instability.


I don't. Al Qaeda is a scapegoat. There was a war against al qaeda already going, and they were a major obstacle to our mid east missions, and already a supporter of terrorist organizations. There was a brief fling with the cia, but it never amounted to a gay marriage.




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Saturday, September 16, 2006 2:15 PM

ANTIMASON


DT- regarding Pearl Harbor, i disagree and do feel that our envolvement was instigated, to allow America to become mystery Babylon of end times. the spiritual aspect aside, there are numerous NWO related sites which share my view, but heres one http://www.apfn.org/apfn/pearl_harbor.htm which implies complicity

and i also believe there is sufficient evidence to link alqaeda and the CIA, that there is a much more profound reason for their role in inflaming the west towards the muslim world(and vice versa); to provide the pretext for the ww3(gog/magog) conflict, and for the eventual UN takeover of the region under the final global government. not that the CIA is acting alone, i think the Mossad actually may be the true puppet masters, but because AMerica and Israel become apostate nations, we prophetically establish this global government.. and coincidentally "terror" is the tool currently being used (but heres a link http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/CIA_Created_Osama.htm )

i think where we primarily differ is that i believe that the NWO is undeniably an occult(luciferian) agenda, and that three world wars were neccessary for its fullfillment; then beginning the rise of antiChrist. i know from past discussions that you do not believe that Jesus was God manifest, so to argue the relevency of prophecy and occult societies is pointless.. but there is an unmistakeable connection regardless ( there is plenty of reserach out their, but heres a link for reference http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/ )

i take the events of the last century(the bloodiest time on record) to be very telling, and not completely random or coincidental; its just a different worldview.

this link really opened my eyes to what may be occurring now in the Middle east, as it relates to the reign of antiChrist-- i highly recommend reading it
http://www.redmoonrising.com/MysteryBabylon.htm


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Saturday, September 16, 2006 4:16 PM

DREAMTROVE


I think that you have to consider my 1/2 hour factor.

That link was not anywhere near an indictment. The days leading up, sure, they knew the japanese navy was there, I think that was an assumed pretext of the story. Here's a question for you. What do you do with the Japanese fleet off your shores?

1. Remove it? As in how? To do so IS war.
2. Evacuate your base? What? The enemy is approaching! Quick! Everyone! Retreat! Surrender!

Even if you had relocated the troops, prior to the sub incident, the japanese would have attacked them.

This isn't a mystery, it's not like we were invaded by aliens in 1941. The japanese have a detailed account of everything which took place, and was planned. The fleet was positioning itself for a surprise attack. They were intending a major air assault to annihilate US forces in the Islands with the intent of taking and holding the pacific, while fighting off America.

The plan had been cooks up by Tojo, who was not only insane but a traitor. He had made a deal with Germany, knowing that the US would retaliate harshly. It's rumored that early in the year the Germans invasion of Russia was in part to convince Tojo that they held common enemies.

The initial D-Day invasion was scheduled for spring of 1942. Germany didn't want that to happen, and so they convinced Tojo, to attack America to distract us and delay the D-Day invasion, which worked very well.

Given the whole situation, there wasn't a lot to be done. The Japanese figured surprise had been lost after the sub incident, and just did the quickest assault they could put together.

I really dug, and found no evidence to support a conspiracy. I see some evidence of incompetence and disorganization, but mostly just bad intel.

I think FDR's follow through was terrible, and Truman's was appalling. We killed millions of people and conquered a large section of territory we had no use for, and later gave away for nothing.

I don't 'believe' in prophesy. I believe in self fulfilling prophesy. I've read the good book and a fair amount on the revelation conspiracy.

If you actually care what I do believe, I give you this: http://www.taoteching.org/
Unlike christianity, we don't get any kudos from above for spreading the faith. It's just an abstruse document which doesn't really fit together until you read it lots of times.

I try to understand christianity, but it's not just that you're religion is something I don't believe, it seems totally alien to me. I get the rules of the bible, and a great deal of it makes sense. I get jesus, he came, he said some stuff, romans killed him. And most religions are based on something very similar. I don't even think it's the bible or jesus that so odd. It's the way the followers treat their faith. It's magically superstitious on a level I can't even comprehend.

I try.

NWO is an agenda. I think we have that. It's an agenda belonging to a particular elite.

I did a lot of digging on this one. A ton of digging. There's some occult groups, sure, but I think it's a red herring. I find a lot of commie groups, a heck of a lot. I came to the conclusion that it's a communist plot. Now maybe communism is a satanic conspiracy (They hate God, right?) but I'm not a christian and so I don't go there.

Mossad is very very scary. I think this is a group of people who are unable to imagine another point of view other than their own, completely lacking in empathy or compassion. Ruthless terrorists.

I don't know if their running the show. I don't know who is. I think Bill Kristol is real close to the top. Maybe not the top guy, but I have a strong suspicion that he sits at the table of the top guy. That head Mossad guy is also at that table. I don't know who is at the head of that table. I don't know if Bush has a seat.

I read a fair amount on the CIA-Osama story and dismissed it. I think mostly Osama is a red herring also.

Quote:
three world wars were neccessary for its fullfillment
Quote:


Don't take this the wrong war, but I just have to say I think this is nuts. There's a thin red line between investigative speculation and tinfoil hatland.

If Joe goes to school with Sally, and Sally's dad works for the cable company, Joe's job on a TV show might have gone through that channel. But if Joe fails on a test, it's not because Time Warner is afraid of him impressing Sally.

Just because things CAN connect, doesn't mean that they DO. There's no reason that there should be three world wars, that sounds like a mystical superstition. this plot probably doesn't predate WWII, except in the sense that commies do, and it probably doesn't go back that far.

I guess you're crossing two worlds here. One is religious and superstitious, and people follow if all the ducks are in a line. The other is a world of investigative research, where the only thing that matters is "did the facts add up?"

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Saturday, September 16, 2006 6:28 PM

ANTIMASON


i honostly dont have a problem accepting your view on Pearl Harbor, i wont argue my side because like most conspiracies, the truth is in the details; and i am not as familiar with Pearl Harbor and ww2 history, as i am with 9/11; so i cant provide a pursuasive case.

but the occult documentation cant just be written off, considering so many prominant elite behind the NWO agenda are secretly Luciferians. it cant be denied that America was founded by masons, and is currently controlled by a central bank (the Fed) which actually prints Satanic symbolism on the face of its currency. the bible says "money is the root of many evils", and money has cause America, the greatest christian nation ever, to forsake her first Love and become an adulterer, a prostitute; this is Mystery Babylon of revelation.

if you understand the message of the bible, then the only prophecies we are self fullfilling are the negetive events which give rise to the antiChrist; which will be entirely antithetical to Gods original will for man. if people were subconsciously self fullfilling "prophecies" to bring about the end of the world, then they are actively fullfilling a satanic agenda. the Bush view that capitalism and democracy is Gods will
is so heretical to Gods message that negetive manifestations of this mentality are certainly possible, but just as with any worldview, religious or not

Jesus' message is selflessness, tolerance, love, to be humble, not to covet possessions or wealth.. is that not also manifested subconsiously? just as do the wills of the billions of agnostics and athiests.. yet i dont blame them for the evils of the world

if my interpretation of prophecy is different than others, does that not skew the prophecy which i am fullfilling within myself? because some do not trust the bible to be Gods word, they pick and choose what they want to believe; and others base prophecy off of false realities and events. how would we all end up at the same place? i think there are a lot of questions to that concept

but God says to oppose the greedy sinful nature of this world, that it is not of God; so using America as an example, how can we be both CHristian and greedy materialist conquerors? we cant.. but the sinful desires of Man, all men, manifest themselves, i think that is the point of the bible, to resist those urges

if we become fanatical at times, it is because we do have a different view of reality, and we are on guard against genuine evils of the world; like the occult NWO conspiracy, because it will be all consuming and opposed to our general good will; is that selfish? if my ideal is promoted for personal benefit, then i am not accurately portraying Gods message


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Sunday, September 17, 2006 4:35 AM

DREAMTROVE


Antimason

Okay, there you are with lucifer again. I don't think that occult worship or paganism can be connected to satan, it's not connected at all. Also, there's a lot of cults. I think the Masons who founded this country are harmless. America wasn't an evil idea, it was a good idea corrupted into something evil. The fed doesn't print money, the treasury does. The fed in an independent consortium, the treasury is a branch of the govt. The eye of illuminati is on that money for a very good reason. It's an allusion to the actual Illuminati of the 1400s, (good guys) who believed in an ideal (separation of church and state) and fought and died to make that goal a reality. Since that goal is one of the founding principles of this nation, we owe a debt to the illumaniti, symbolized by that mark on the dollar bill. It's perfectly logical to me. As logical as putting a tin fish on the back of your car.

Quote:
the bible says "money is the root of many evils"


No it doesn't.

1.Timothy 6.10

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

It's pretty clear. The love of money, in particular, the placing of money higher than faith, it's in pursuit of money over faith that leads one astray. Everyone always misquotes this, so I have to post it, otherwise it loses its meaning. Your point is okay though. I don't think the US is a christian nation. It's largely christian, but it's never been completely or officially christian.

Prophesy doesn't "coincidentally" end up in one place. You, the followers, make do. You have this predication that there will be a sign of great light on the seventh day of the seventh month and you've predicted a july 7 meteor shower, and you get a july 8th solar flare instead, and you accept it. You mark the time off as calendar drift, and take the flare as your meteor shower, because, after all, the scripture only said "great light." This is true for all prophesies, which is why people says "if they're suitably vague, any prophesy is true." This biblical prophesy is true because it has entered the collective consciouness of its followers, who number hundreds of millions, and then they make it happen.

"should we do XYZ? Well prophesy says it will be done, so who are we to argue? and who will blame us? it's right there in the book"

Anyone notice, BTW, that I said the occupation would "officially end" on aug. 30 2006?

I said this when we first went into Iraq, and I posted it on this board about a year ago. Well, the handover of control of the military occupation of Iraq was handed over to the Iraqis 5 days late. They actually tried on the 30th of August, but there were security situations that made it impossible until sept. 4th.

I got the number out of the bible. 1260 days of occupation. Of course, retroactive apologists can repair that descrepency by saying, oh, the occupation didn't actually begin until 5 days after the invasion. But you see how a bunch of christians made that prophesy come to pass, and it makes them fairly predictable. All of Bush's nonsense about "if we have a timetable for withdrawl, that will embolden the enemy" was true, but also nonsense. They already had the timetable, and the enemy, being also very religious, knew this. They just had to sit and wait. Since they knew specifically what we would do on 8-30-06, they planned accordingly, by infiltrating the iraqi forces that would assume power.

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how can we be both CHristian and greedy materialist conquerors?


When I say this is the 29th crusade, I mean it. This is nothing new in christianity. You're people have been raiding the middle east since the fall of rome. I admit it's an ecclesiastical inconsistancy, but it's not a new one.







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Sunday, September 17, 2006 10:17 AM

ANTIMASON


i was quoting from memory, but the NIV says "for the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil".. im not sure why mine was a misquote; but it does not skew the message, which is that money leads to greed, which is idolatry. it is no coincidence that the eye of Horus, the pentagram, surrounded by a circle, as well as other occult symbolism such as 13 stars etc. are found on the money, because occultists believe that demons manifest through the pentagram; http://www.cuttingedge.org/News/n1731.cfm
and money has been used to lead astray the believers of the world, as it was intended too

AMerica is about the all mighty dollar, and we have began an age where we will pre-emptively make war to secure the stability of our economy.. as if we werent already excessively affluent in relation to the rest of the world. somce were not using our money and influence to bring love to the world and present ourselves as just representives of God, we have fallen away from our first love. America, or mystery Babylon, is an apostate nation, and idolater, known as the "the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. with her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries". those "adulteries" are the greed and lies perpetuated by our culture, which places material wealth above all else; which is idolatry. symbolicly America is forsaking its roots, worshipping idols and seducing the world to follow our example of a ruthless capitalist democracy, which gives birth to the system of the beast

im really at a loss for debating this with you, as we are at an impass; i believe God exists, therefore Satan exists; the bible says Satan, from the beginning, has been at war with the church(believers), and is actively manipulating events to pervert Jesus' message, and to establish the mechanisms for his eventual reign. the Bible says that since the times of Noah the world has been of Satan, has worshipped fallen angels and Idols, and has done the will of its father (satan). the Illuminati, the freemasons, are just the most recent societies which hold to concepts and doctrines introduced in the ancient world, such as babylon and egypt, by the fallen angels and Lucifer... that is the source of this hidden, secretive knowledge that they hold. here are some links http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/america_subversion4.htm http://www.cuttingedge.org/fmcorner.html http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NewAge/

i honostly cannot believe that you think the Illuminati are a good thing; that just baffles me. i dont even know where to start, you dont believe Satan exists, so you dont see the diception through the idealogies that the Illuminati and freemasons promote on his behalf; the idealogies that happened to create modern America, prophetically the Nation that gives rise to the antiCHrist, or Satan manifest.

the Federal reserve IS a private Bank, a central bank which was strictly forbidden by our constitution; as our founding fathers were familiar with the damage central banks created in EU. there is a wealth of information regarding this, so i offer you some links rather than then get into this myself http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Federal_Reserve_McFadden.htm
http://www.cephas-library.com/nwo/secrets_of_the_federal_reserve.html
understand- i believe there is only 1 supreme being by which everything came into existence... so any doctrine which takes away from this message is inherently Satanic because they deny basic truths of Gods message; but the occult is by far the most heinous, because they actively worhsip lucifer. the Illuminati worhsips Lucifer - that is an admitted fact among its members, aswell as the higher degree masons who are privy to the true underlying doctrines. Albert Pike, one of the most infamous masons, and highly respected among the society, makes this fact plain






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Sunday, September 17, 2006 12:38 PM

DREAMTROVE


Antimason

It's not a version issue, obviously, there's no reason to insist that my kjv is accurate, even the originals aren't 'accurate' since the text has been modified countless times over the years, (the ten commandments we know aren't the original ten commandments, etc.)

But... If you omit 'love' in your quote, you skew the meaning. The "love of money" is the root of evil. Not nitpicking your usage though, you applied the passage correctly. It just irks me a little when people say "money is the root of evil" which is simply not what it says. It would be like saying that food was a deadly sin, instead of gluttony.

Money does not lead to greed. Love of money does. Greed exists in the absense of mone. You could hoard yams or potatoes. You could want all the land. Greed is greed. Money is just an object, a concept. Not evil in and of itself.

Horus was the father of, let me get this staight.. In egyptian mythology, the relationships all got changed to make a deity hierarchy, but I believe historically it was Anubis, but may have been Osiris. Anyway, the stone was kept as a symbol to keep the kingdom safe. The eye was the watchign over egypt, protecting her. Though Anubis wrote that his dog had actually kept the kingdom safe. I believe the dog's name is "Dog." But it's another fascinating study... I digress. This is all *way* pre-christian and pre-moses.

As is the Pentagram. A pentagram is a magickal containment field to keep the spirits in check, it's been used for thousands of years. It's neither satanic nor sinister. The people who would have used it never saw Yhwh or his followers, or likely ever heard of them.

13 is the number of colonies. No way around it.

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i honostly cannot believe that you think the Illuminati are a good thing; that just baffles me. i dont even know where to start


So you're a catholic?

Since the illumanti essentially created the venue for non-catholic faith, which it did because it believe the roman catholic church to be a corrupt and evil institution which dominated europe, and was created by the roman empire to twist god's word... etc.? So you have a problem with this? You support theocracy also? You oppose separation of chuch and state, the basic tenet of the illumaniti, and one of this nation, and what exactly do you think of america?

No one worships satan other than some silly teens. I think you're premise that the existance of an anti-being is mandated be the presence of a being is sketchy, and that everyone who doesn't worship your god must worship this anti-deity is beyond the pale.

I'm sure you would find the level of absolute indifference of my faith somewhat baffling. But re: the masons. Freemasonry has been crumbling as an organization, and fervent fringe christianity is on the rise, yet you act like you're the meek victim of an oppressive masonry. Almost nothing could be further from the truth. Christianity, and this is just a perpectual nitpicky point, but (and jews to) play the victim card way too often. You're not the victim here. Your the guys who rule. I admit, sure, that Bush is a fake christian, and sure, maybe he worships satan and drinks children's blood with his supper. Maybe he made an underworld deal to sell his soul for power and cocaine. But... and this is a big but... you're not the underdog. You're not the trodden underfoot of society. What may make matters worse - you never were. Romans threw christians to lions for committing speicific acts of what would now be called "terrorism" against roman places of pagan worship, which they believed, as you do, that they were under the control of a fantasy anti-being called satan. The old testament gives us no unified anti-being, it gives many entities, that the new testament attempts to synthesize into one being.

The world is broken into you and not you, sure. But not you is not unified in its not-you-ness. If it were, you'd have been squashed like a bug a long time ago. It's not that you're under siege and the strength of you God keeps you safe, it's that you're not under siege. In fact, frequently, christians have been the siege-ers.

Its not that I have something against christians. I don't. Why do you have something against the rest of us? I mean, seriously, you could be wrong, right? Maybe the rest of the world doesn't worship satan. Maybe satan doesn't exist, except in your head. Just a thought

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Sunday, September 17, 2006 3:55 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Antimason

It's not a version issue, obviously, there's no reason to insist that my kjv is accurate, even the originals aren't 'accurate' since the text has been modified countless times over the years, (the ten commandments we know aren't the original ten commandments, etc.)


the kjv was translated from available texts..but when the dead sea scrolls were recovered, of which the NIV includes, they were able to confirm what was accurate from the existing scriptures; so we have an incredible amount of translations to consilidate from, and scholars are pretty confident that we arent getting rehashed-altered versions of the original scriptures

Quote:
But... If you omit 'love' in your quote, you skew the meaning. The "love of money" is the root of evil. Not nitpicking your usage though, you applied the passage correctly. It just irks me a little when people say "money is the root of evil" which is simply not what it says. It would be like saying that food was a deadly sin, instead of gluttony.


you are preaching to the choir; i didnt say money is the sole root of evil; my point was just that the aqcuisition of material wealth, or anything in excess(whatever it may be) is a sin. all of these desires of human nature are used to draw people into compromising positions

Quote:
Money does not lead to greed. Love of money does. Greed exists in the absense of mone. You could hoard yams or potatoes. You could want all the land. Greed is greed. Money is just an object, a concept. Not evil in and of itself.


the bible isnt as dogmatic as people like to accuse it of; Jesus' himself says not to judge, or we will be judged. for example, God says that drunkeness, sexual perversion, greed etc are sins.. but he is describing excess and abuse. drinking is not bad..but drunkeness is. there are universal truths that God established, christianity at its root is just supposed to be an insight into these truths. anything manifested in the world opposing to Gods will is not brought through Gods message

Quote:
Horus was the father of, let me get this staight.. In egyptian mythology, the relationships all got changed to make a deity hierarchy, but I believe historically it was Anubis, but may have been Osiris. Anyway, the stone was kept as a symbol to keep the kingdom safe. The eye was the watchign over egypt, protecting her. Though Anubis wrote that his dog had actually kept the kingdom safe. I believe the dog's name is "Dog." But it's another fascinating study... I digress. This is all *way* pre-christian and pre-moses.


see.. you arent really understanding the message of the bible. Man, from the beginning was led astray by false gods. in genesis 6 it says:

"when men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the *sons of God* saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose;.. the *Nephilim* were on the earth in those days-and also afterward- when the *sons of God* went to the daugthers of men and had children by them. they were the heroes of old, men of renown".

these were superhuman entities, further elaborated in the book of Enoch, which goes into further detail.. but my premise is that all ancient polytheistic deities were based off of this visitation by the fallen angels. the Sumerian cuniform tablets, the oldest civilization recorded, share many of the bibles storeis such as the flood, but the Sumerian culture worshipped the Annunaki(fallen angels)..a different perspective introduced by these rebellious beings. they were percieved as gods, and they taught man everything known to the ancient pre-deluvian world. i dont believe all of these stories to be myths, but to be telling the same story, and Abraham just reintroduced the belief in the Creator God of everything in existence

Quote:
As is the Pentagram. A pentagram is a magickal containment field to keep the spirits in check, it's been used for thousands of years. It's neither satanic nor sinister. The people who would have used it never saw Yhwh or his followers, or likely ever heard of them.


your assuming though that Yahweh does not exist; otherwise he was present before the earth was created; the pentagram is then relevant to christianity, as God created the laws of the universe which allow Demons to manifest through these symbols. Jesus' speaks quite a bit about demons, as well as the Jewish apocypha like Enoch; so this fascination among the occult is related. to discard this avenue of information is to avoid what is known practice among these occult societies like Skull and Bones and the Thule society.

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13 is the number of colonies. No way around it.


true.. but why start at 13? why an Eagle? why egyptian icons like the eye and pyramid, or the giant phallic symbol in washington? numerology is a key tool of occultism (not that it is solely occultic) because they recognize the relevance and power of numbers. 9/11 wasnt just chosen out of thin air either, but was symbolic. there is occult symbology and archetypes envolved everywhere that subconsiously effect us, which people are oblivious to

Quote:
So you're a catholic?

Since the illumanti essentially created the venue for non-catholic faith, which it did because it believe the roman catholic church to be a corrupt and evil institution which dominated europe, and was created by the roman empire to twist god's word... etc.? So you have a problem with this? You support theocracy also? You oppose separation of chuch and state, the basic tenet of the illumaniti, and one of this nation, and what exactly do you think of america?


the catholic church was corrupt..that had nothing to do with Jesus', but was a perversion of mens hearts for personal gain. since Illuminists worship Lucifer, the "light bringer", i am not suprised they wanted to establish control beyond the catholic churchs domain.

i have no problem with a seperation of church and state, Jesus' does not say to forceably coerce his message into people; but i think the "state" should be socially just per universal truths, which christianity and other beliefs teach.

the danger is that the NWO system of the beast will be an all encompassing belief and worldview, which will in effect abolish this seperation.. yet your not accusing the Luciferians of anything. the sad truth is that America is an occult nation, and is not secular, but directly luciferian; as ive been trying to point out by her actions and by her overt symbolism. this is why God opposes Mystery Bayblon in the end, because she has defied God and become his anthesis

Quote:
No one worships satan other than some silly teens. I think you're premise that the existance of an anti-being is mandated be the presence of a being is sketchy, and that everyone who doesn't worship your god must worship this anti-deity is beyond the pale.


i think that is a dangerous ommittion, but youre refusing everything uncovered about societies like Thule, Skull and Bones, Illuminati, Masonry, Bohemian grove.. it is not just satanic concepts embraced by the youth, but those who seek a direct influence such as these groups. if i worship God, i base my world view on principles that Jesus' describes as pleasing to him. the Illuminasts base their faith on a different deity, literally Lucifer, as the harbinger of spiritual knowledge and freedom. only its all secretive and diceptive, so it is antithetical to Gods message and is for personal gain. sin is a bad seed which produces bad fruit, regardless of belief..but some embrace sin as spiritual freedom, as Lucifer teaches. "Mystery" Babylon stands for the ancient mysteries and black arts, of which most secret societies covet intellectually and subscribe enormous esoteric significance to

America has forsaken God for and run after these concepts idolatrously. this was Americas destiny, and all this Freemason, skull and bones CFR business is not just irrelevant speculation, it is the reality

Quote:
I'm sure you would find the level of absolute indifference of my faith somewhat baffling.


that is not a very indifferent statement, and i constantly see you referring to christianity negetively... look i checked out that link you posted, and other than some insights appearing slightly absract, i still recognize basic truths, universal to your belief, aswell as christianity and all the others; (i believe) God set all laws of the universe. do you accept it as creed and set your life as a pattern to it? if so, that is respectfull, but most people ultimately decide for themselves what is right or wrong in the end; including christians; but we will all be held accountable for our choices one day, which is a message not everyone teaches

Quote:
But re: the masons. Freemasonry has been crumbling as an organization, and fervent fringe christianity is on the rise, yet you act like you're the meek victim of an oppressive masonry.


well what im telling you is that this "fervent fringe" of christianity may in fact be the end times anti-christianity, which has accepted false doctrines introduced through the occult societies which their elite established mechanisms have propogated. this is the signifance of Mystery Babylon the Great, because she becomes an apostate nation, who was led astray to become an enemy of God. i urge you to consider this info http://www.redmoonrising.com/MysteryBabylon.htm

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Almost nothing could be further from the truth. Christianity, and this is just a perpectual nitpicky point, but (and jews to) play the victim card way too often. You're not the victim here.


well some of that is political manipulation, but christian just means a faithfull follower of Gods principles, so we are looking out for everyones good will; we are supposed to stand for justice and love and tolerance for all

Quote:
Your the guys who rule. I admit, sure, that Bush is a fake christian, and sure, maybe he worships satan and drinks children's blood with his supper. Maybe he made an underworld deal to sell his soul for power and cocaine.


twisting Jesus' message to the extent that the republican party or the Roman papacy has is by definition, antichristian; which is a whole different philosophy distinct from Jesus'. it is these ideals that spawn the power mongers who ruthlessly prostitute the citizens of the world

Quote:
But... and this is a big but... you're not the underdog. You're not the trodden underfoot of society. What may make matters worse - you never were. Romans threw christians to lions for committing speicific acts of what would now be called "terrorism" against roman places of pagan worship, which they believed, as you do, that they were under the control of a fantasy anti-being called satan. The old testament gives us no unified anti-being, it gives many entities, that the new testament attempts to synthesize into one being.


actually, Satan was known by many different names, but he is refferred to by "Satan" in the OT, most notably in Job, but also Chronicles 1; but he IS the serpent in the garden, and the ancient serpent of revelation; and is reffered to in daniel as the "abomination" that causes desolation, beelzebub.. i mean this prime character is refferred to distincly many times. other references may refer to the fallen angels, such as Raphiam, Nephilim, Elohim, and several different baals-

Quote:
The world is broken into you and not you, sure. But not you is not unified in its not-you-ness. If it were, you'd have been squashed like a bug a long time ago. It's not that you're under siege and the strength of you God keeps you safe, it's that you're not under siege. In fact, frequently, christians have been the siege-ers.


God has given his nations great wealth, but AMerica has forsaken GOd and become an apostate nation who worships idols; antichristian, is a different philosophy, which we promote by our culture. you will see with your own eyes the day where true believers in christ will be discriminated and persecuted wordwide for their faith; right now American christianity is under the diception of the end times, "the lie" that corrupts even the elect. it will be these same christians who turn on me, for my view that America is Babylon. you can see the stage being set for this right now with the "war on terror", as anyone who dissents against the government will be considered terrorists in the future.

Quote:
Its not that I have something against christians. I don't. Why do you have something against the rest of us? I mean, seriously, you could be wrong, right? Maybe the rest of the world doesn't worship satan. Maybe satan doesn't exist, except in your head. Just a thought


i have nothing again st the rest of you! actually DT, i have never even asked what your personal belief was, or even scrutinized it in any way. if youll recall, i am the one constantly on the defensive.. but i accept that, because Jesus' said the world will hate us just as they did him. there are people who are antichrists in themselves, by nature, who are not official prescribers to my faith, but do damage to the world themselves; yet their are also those who actively worship Lucifer, and they are the real puppet masters on the world stage, and all the Fed, CFR, central Bank, royal family, occult secret society knowledge eludes to that if youll consider that Jesus' was who he said he was. no one has to believe me, if i am right you will all see for your own eyes soon enough, because the stage is being set for the final war which gives rise to antichrist; that is the significance of the middle east and the war on terror, i ask that any christians reading this check out the link i posted

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Sunday, September 17, 2006 6:30 PM

DREAMTROVE


Antimason,

Sure we are. We're always getting altered text. It was common practice in the pre-christian era. As long as we don't have the original tablets, we don't know the original text. Life isn't perfect, you just get as close as you can.

Quote:
you are preaching to the choir;


No, I'm arguing with the choir about faith :)
You were using it correctly, I was just adding the love. But if you use that to tie into the masons on the dollar thing, it's a stretch.

Quote:
there are universal truths that God established, christianity at its root is just supposed to be an insight into these truths.


This is a lot more reasonable.


Horus was the father of, let me get this staight.. In egyptian mythology, the relationships all got changed to make a deity hierarchy, but I believe historically it was Anubis, but may have been Osiris. Anyway, the stone was kept as a symbol to keep the kingdom safe. The eye was the watchign over egypt, protecting her. Though Anubis wrote that his dog had actually kept the kingdom safe. I believe the dog's name is "Dog." But it's another fascinating study... I digress. This is all *way* pre-christian and pre-moses.



Quote:
see.. you arent really understanding the message of the bible. Man, from the beginning was led astray by false gods. in genesis 6 it says:

"when men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the *sons of God* saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose;.. the *Nephilim* were on the earth in those days-and also afterward- when the *sons of God* went to the daugthers of men and had children by them. they were the heroes of old, men of renown". these were superhuman entities, further elaborated in the book of Enoch, which goes into further detail.. but my premise is that all ancient polytheistic deities were based off of this visitation by the fallen angels. the Sumerian cuniform tablets, the oldest civilization recorded, share many of the bibles storeis such as the flood, but the Sumerian culture worshipped the Annunaki(fallen angels)..a different perspective introduced by these rebellious beings. they were percieved as gods, and they taught man everything known to the ancient pre-deluvian world. i dont believe all of these stories to be myths, but to be telling the same story, and Abraham just reintroduced the belief in the Creator God of everything in existence


Dude. These dates will never add up in your favor. Sumer is far from the ancient-est civilization, and the idea that Sumerian religion is a continuous entity with Yhwhism is a stretch. In fact, civilization has been a spiral for some time. It moves around the planet, shifting its focus as one society infects the next, and then the older society crumbles. This has been going on for at least 35,000 years. The religions I cited both pre-date the wprship of Yhwh. I am completely without doubt that the other religions of the world are NOT descended from fragmented Yhwhism. In fact, I'm absolutely sure that Yhwhism is a fragment of them. Yhwh was the god of war in a hebrew pantheon, which itself was not unlike others of the time.

In the days when man knew nothing, he guessed about his world. Those guesses work when the audience is also not knowing the ways of the world. Moses' followers adopted the sumerian script whole cloth probably because it sounded better than whatever they were using. There's some references to a fire-cult creation myth based on Mt. Sinai prior to that adoption. It's all guesswork. To take this as the literal word of God is to take it more seriously than it was probably originally intended. You undoubtedly know much more than Moses himself ever did, let alone his followers. Just saying.

Quote:
your assuming though that Yahweh does not exist; otherwise he was present before the earth was created; the pentagram is then relevant to christianity, as God created the laws of the universe which allow Demons to manifest through these symbols. Jesus' speaks quite a bit about demons, as well as the Jewish apocypha like Enoch; so this fascination among the occult is related. to discard this avenue of information is to avoid what is known practice among these occult societies like Skull and Bones and the Thule society.


This is an amazingly safe assumption to make, objectively, but I can see where you would take issue with it. But still, detach and allow the scholar within to take hold. Objectively, the word of Yhwh, whether true or not, spread forward from some point in time, through a path of human interaction. This is a definite measureable thing, open to a limited amount of speculation. I can feel really quite secure that there is not a direct connection from which other religions derived their origins from the ME. For instance, the native americans were well established in the new world at the time that the sumerians were constructing temples to the heavens, and the indians were constructing temples of their own to their animal gods.

Quote:
true.. but why start at 13? why an Eagle? why egyptian icons like the eye and pyramid, or the giant phallic symbol in washington? numerology is a key tool of occultism (not that it is solely occultic) because they recognize the relevance and power of numbers. 9/11 wasnt just chosen out of thin air either, but was symbolic. there is occult symbology and archetypes envolved everywhere that subconsiously effect us, which people are oblivious to


I believe that the date 9-11 was chosen deliberately, but I haven't figured it out. It's probably a biblical or koran verse, depending on who did it.
13 colonies was random, there was some debate about who would join, 13 did.
The eagle represents the union of the five who are now six, also called Haudenosaunee. The eagle clutches five arrows, one for each of the five, who are now six. As it was in the time of the great eclipse of August 31, 1142.
It's the iroquois legend upon which Franklin and others chose to sculpt the union of the second american confederacy. The other influence was of course, the first confederacy of new england.
We carry the symbol which today appears on our money. On the back of the quarter, the number of arrows has always been five, except for a few instances of three, but on the great seal of the united states it was upped to 13.
The pyramid is part of the symbol of the illuminati, which is there for the obvious reasons.

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the catholic church was corrupt..that had nothing to do with Jesus', but was a perversion of mens hearts for personal gain.


And you are not catholic because there was an illuminati. I rest my case :)

Quote:
since Illuminists worship Lucifer, the "light bringer",


This doesn't strike you as a stretch?

Quote:
i have no problem with a seperation of church and state, Jesus' does not say to forceably coerce his message into people; but i think the "state" should be socially just per universal truths, which christianity and other beliefs teach.


But I thought other faiths were corruptions who worship satan.

Quote:
the danger is that the NWO system of the beast will be an all encompassing belief and worldview, which will in effect abolish this seperation.. yet your not accusing the Luciferians of anything. the sad truth is that America is an occult nation, and is not secular, but directly luciferian; as ive been trying to point out by her actions and by her overt symbolism. this is why God opposes Mystery Bayblon in the end, because she has defied God and become his anthesis


Hmm. If this were true america would be a more interesting place. I think america gets a lot of abuse. It's nazi germany in the making maybe, but not really great satan.

Quote:
i think that is a dangerous ommittion, but youre refusing everything uncovered about societies like Thule, Skull and Bones, Illuminati, Masonry, Bohemian grove.. it is not just satanic concepts embraced by the youth, but those who seek a direct influence such as these groups. if i worship God, i base my world view on principles that Jesus' describes as pleasing to him. the Illuminasts base their faith on a different deity, literally Lucifer, as the harbinger of spiritual knowledge and freedom. only its all secretive and diceptive, so it is antithetical to Gods message and is for personal gain. sin is a bad seed which produces bad fruit, regardless of belief..but some embrace sin as spiritual freedom, as Lucifer teaches. "Mystery" Babylon stands for the ancient mysteries and black arts, of which most secret societies covet intellectually and subscribe enormous esoteric significance to


Hmm. This sound pretty far fetched to me. I think secret societies are part of a long european tradition. It's what white people do.

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America has forsaken God for and run after these concepts idolatrously. this was Americas destiny, and all this Freemason, skull and bones CFR business is not just irrelevant speculation, it is the reality


I like my sick zombiemerica better

Quote:
I'm sure you would find the level of absolute indifference of my faith somewhat baffling.



Quote:
that is not a very indifferent statement, and i constantly see you referring to christianity negetively... look i checked out that link you posted, and other than some insights appearing slightly absract, i still recognize basic truths, universal to your belief, aswell as christianity and all the others; (i believe) God set all laws of the universe. do you accept it as creed and set your life as a pattern to it? if so, that is respectfull, but most people ultimately decide for themselves what is right or wrong in the end; including christians; but we will all be held accountable for our choices one day, which is a message not everyone teaches


Objectively you have to realize that christianity, from an outside perspective, seems insane. The world view would objectively appear to be somewhat ludicrous. I attempt to understand it because millions of people believe, and many of those seem reasonably intelligent. But I'm trying, I'm not saying I understand. I actually took the pains to read your rather lengthy book cover to cover. To me, my faith is the best explaination I've read, and guidance. I don't think that the Tao teaches right and wrong per se in the way that so called western religions do. (By so called, I mean, these are really mid-eastern religions.) It has at its heart a collosal indifference, but there are definite guides for what might be in tune with the way, paths which lead to a natural flow. It would be foolish to go against the teaching for no other reason than that there was some expedient to do so. So far, nothing has struck me as so remarkably different from life in ancient china that it need be modified. So, I guess I'd say yes, sure, I set my life by it, but I don't believe that we would view right and wrong, good and evil, as you would. Yin and yang are two halves which complete each other, they are not one good and one bad, and if you forgive the intrusion, I would say that to us, christianity would seem to create evil through distinction. To identify good, in explicit terms, is to create evil as its negative, and thus evil exists because you defined good. Ergo, as you narrow your definition, you invent satan. We don't define, and so we have no satan. Hope this makes sense.


Quote:
well what im telling you is that this "fervent fringe" of christianity may in fact be the end times anti-christianity, which has accepted false doctrines introduced through the occult societies which their elite established mechanisms have propogated. this is the signifance of Mystery Babylon the Great, because she becomes an apostate nation, who was led astray to become an enemy of God.


Sure, but it's believers follow in good faith. Since they are not malicious in their intent, surely your deity doesn't hold them in contempt?

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well some of that is political manipulation, but christian just means a faithfull follower of Gods principles, so we are looking out for everyones good will; we are supposed to stand for justice and love and tolerance for all


Presumptious though, isn't it? I mean, what if you don't in fact know what's best for the rest of us? You could always be wrong.

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twisting Jesus' message to the extent that the republican party or the Roman papacy has is by definition, antichristian; which is a whole different philosophy distinct from Jesus'. it is these ideals that spawn the power mongers who ruthlessly prostitute the citizens of the world


Or maybe Bush just caters to christianity because it's worth a lot of votes. If your numbers weren't strong, no one would care.

Quote:
actually, Satan was known by many different names, but he is refferred to by "Satan" in the OT, most notably in Job, but also Chronicles 1; but he IS the serpent in the garden, and the ancient serpent of revelation; and is reffered to in daniel as the "abomination" that causes desolation, beelzebub.. i mean this prime character is refferred to distincly many times. other references may refer to the fallen angels, such as Raphiam, Nephilim, Elohim, and several different baals-


Says you. And the second book. But I read both of those books, and the first one is making no serious implication that we are talking of one entity, and since that is a compliation of earlier unconnected works, it's safe to assume that they are not one entity.

Baal was a man, first king of lebanon. He has his own sacred text, which is an interesting read. Beelzebub is a corruption of Baal-Zeebub. Zeebub was a later king of lebanon, and a follower of Baal. Neither one is a deity, much less satan.
Elohim is the original god of the heavens, and most certainly not satan. I think that it's probably far more credible an idea, objectively, that yhwh is satan and Elohim is god, if it's not blasphemous to say so. Yhwh ultimately replaced Elohim as the top deity in the hebrew pantheon, mostly by the sword, and took up many of his characteristics. Because of this, your fellow christians believe he is upwards, to the heavens. The original followers of yhwh believed he lived within the earth, within caverns of fire. (They were, after all, volcano worshippers.) Given the image christians now use, I would think the association was intuitive. Also, as a footnote, when jesus cries out, it's My El My El, why have you forsaken me, not My Yhwh. Though, admittedly, at this point in the development of judea, 'el' had become a generic word for deity.

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God has given his nations great wealth, but AMerica has forsaken GOd and become an apostate nation who worships idols; antichristian, is a different philosophy, which we promote by our culture. you will see with your own eyes the day where true believers in christ will be discriminated and persecuted wordwide for their faith; right now American christianity is under the diception of the end times, "the lie" that corrupts even the elect. it will be these same christians who turn on me, for my view that America is Babylon. you can see the stage being set for this right now with the "war on terror", as anyone who dissents against the government will be considered terrorists in the future.


Oh, no, I won't. But this is hardly something new. I mean christians have been crusading for centuries, They ruled rome, and virtually every western state thereafter. It's not like christian power is new with george w bush or america. I think this is a christian fantasy because it suits their self image. jesus was persecuted, and they want to be like jesus.

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i have nothing again st the rest of you! actually DT, i have never even asked what your personal belief was, or even scrutinized it in any way.


Actually I confess that I was acting offended. It actually doesn't bother me. But I thought I might provoke a response. The problem I see is that your God, Yhwh, is a god of war, and always has been. He was the war god of the hebrew pantheon before he became a monotheistic deity. Now, as having taken the entirety of everyone else as an enemy, christians have created the war of total endless destruction. When christians see other christians as false cristians, it becomes an enless internal civil war as well. Why not just live and let live?

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if youll recall, i am the one constantly on the defensive.. but i accept that, because Jesus' said the world will hate us just as they did him.


Ah, the identity complex I was referring to, so I was right (I didn't read ahead)

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there are people who are antichrists in themselves, by nature, who are not official prescribers to my faith, but do damage to the world themselves; yet their are also those who actively worship Lucifer, and they are the real puppet masters on the world stage, and all the Fed, CFR, central Bank, royal family, occult secret society knowledge eludes to that if youll consider that Jesus' was who he said he was. no one has to believe me, if i am right you will all see for your own eyes soon enough, because the stage is being set for the final war which gives rise to antichrist; that is the significance of the middle east and the war on terror, i ask that any christians reading this check out the link i posted


This history will judge thing doesn't work. There's a real problem, and it's really here. And I guess the only question we all need ask of ourselves is: "are we part of the solution, or are we part of the problem?"
I think you have a lot of good ideas, and your rhetorrical take, whether i believe it or not, may have more sway than my own, which is why I bother. I just see this snag, which is that as long as you have the entirety outside of your own faith, and even the subset of that faith, as an enemy, you are not on the road to peace. I hope you get how your position can become its own endless was on terror, or war on satan, which by your own definition, is all encompassing.

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Sunday, September 17, 2006 8:08 PM

ANTIMASON


DT- i understand that my language comes off as divisive when i single out and expose what i consider to be occultism as "satanic"; and i think the cold interaction of the internet kind of blunts my approach..

i wish you knew me personally, because i have always been a harmless guy; i do not judge anyone for their actions, since we are all imperfect, and in reality everyone is a hypocrite for judging someone else; as we all share in the same experiences. Jesus says "with the measure you use, so to will be given unto you", and in that way i am a friend to everyone; i do not hold myself to be on some kind of pedestal, or altar, because i am christian; actually im humbled by it, i do not throw it in anyones face, and i do not ever consider myself to be superior. my faith is more a guideline for my life, i certainly dont interject for the sake of confrontation

but i am a believer of Christ, and among the many messages of the bible, it is to be aware of false prophets, diceptive philosophies, and those who would pervert and deny the word of God including JEsus' diety. their are many beliefs in the world which fit this description, but the most offensive and threatening is Luciferianism. those who believe in Jesus have a message of salvation, that we will be redeemed, that our sinful nature will pass away, and that we have an image of God to conform to that is all loving and just. what i see envolving these secret societies is something that i simply cannot let go un-challenged, as they do not have the same message as we do, and theyre goal is directly opposing to ours

my intention, if you take any bit of information from me, is that their is a distinct difference between Jesus' christianity, and anti-christianity, or occultism. i feel many around here are commenting out of their own bias, and have never truly studied the scriptures, relentlessly..as is neccessary to truly appreciate the profoundness of its revelations. it is my hobby, i devote a good majority of my free time to it, so i generally know when i see a known contradiction; and the christians who support Bush do not realize the behavior they are passively condoning, and subconsciously purpetuating, through their support of occult doctrines which have become accepted christian concepts

AMerican christianity, according to prophecy, becomes a majority apostate church, which essentially cannot recognize the Jesus' of scripture, and compromises its ideals for the lust of the world..therefore is decieved by an occult agenda to establish Babylon, Satans instrument to manifest the beast and his messiah antichrist. America has chosen to worship her own god of idols, and the signs are all around if we would open our eyes to the political reality of the world, and its commercialism and materialist excesses has become a culture, an ideal, which has largely been promoted by AMerica

to be fair, you have to consider luciferianism and the occult when talking about the christianity, because they are seperate philosophies linked by an antithetical worldview; and christianity seems to take the blame for concepts that are not promoted within the bible, but are discouraged.

we are in agreement that their are universal truths, or laws, that many beliefs have ceased upon. if these beliefs conform with the message of God then they are not opposing to him. murder is wrong no matter what, a lie is a lie as long as it is not the truth, etc; so to expose something as sinful is a neccessity, otherwise truth is reletive, and everything is then permissable, right?




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Monday, September 18, 2006 4:33 AM

DREAMTROVE


Antimason

Sorry, didn't mean to beat you down.

If I have a point here, it's that the non-christians of the world aren't an evil twisted version of christianity, but something not connected, and usually a great deal older than chrisianity.

Nietzsche said that the new christians of his time were actually new jews, because they derived most of their lessons from the old testament. Most of the new christians of our generation are the same way. I suppose this can be attributed to paul, who I think made the decision to bundle, in hopes of bridging the gap between christians and jews. I think this was his overall strategy, and I would have chosen to make a purer faith with a smaller base, if I had been in his shoes.

Moses dates from around 1450, and he essentially created this religion. Every generated religion always uses something older to hark from, but that doesn't mean that it *is* that older thing. Judaism really doesn't pre-date this time. The prior religion was not the twisted sumerian belief, but a polytheist hebrew pantheon, which had El as it's top deity, as god of the heavens and rain, and Yhwh as god of war. I think that this OT tie in, ultimately secures this connection, and creates a problem for jesus, as peacemaker.

I'm sure if you've studied in depth that you're painfully aware that at certain points in the old testament, God sends his followers out to commit wholesale genocide, and then sees it, and sees that it is good. You can see where this is appalling to an outside observer. But this is the old war god coming through.

I'd agree, sure, religion, at best is a set of rules and guiding principles which make society better for those who live in it. At worst, obviously, it's hysterical mass insanity.

What I see is this siituation in Iraq, sure, it's a bunch of not very christian people, but also some christian support, and certainly some God fearing folk who are allowing that old war god to resurface.

What's your take on Islam?

Objectively, Mohammed was a savage, and I think this may have affected his faith, which was really what the one cartoon was indicating. Since Mohammed, as a leader of a band of brigands, was truly savage, and then found God, Jesus, and reformed. Like Jesus, he went back to tell his people the good word. But, and I think this is a tricky part: Just because they followed mohammed, didn't make his band, or those they converted, not savages. After his death, the religion instantly took on a fairly violent tint. Of course, these two faiths have evolved into very different religions, inspite of their common origins, goal, and intent. Is Islam part of satan? It's far more of a corruption of christ than is paganism which is really no connection to christ.

Surely there's a lot out there which is not you, but not anti-you. How large is the luciferian cult you see? Does it include Hinduism?

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Tuesday, September 19, 2006 6:40 PM

ANTIMASON


i havent read the koran, so i cant really say ive assimilated it into my world view... but i do know that Jesus makes it clear that he is God manifest, and anything less is herecy; plain and simple. i do however believe that the Muslim world is under attack by the NWO occultists, and is strategically being provoked internationally into a war that they otherwise wouldnt have instigated. but either way, they will eventually give their power over to this global government, at which point they turn on us(US) and watch us burn.. according to prophecy

i never said that everything which is not christian is therefore luciferian; but anything contradictory to Jesus' message is; thats the difference. there are positive messages, universal truths, which are written on mens hearts, that christianity as ive said, does not hold exlusively; and then there are some concepts, such as mans fallen nature and eventual redemption, the notion of a supreme (God) which exists, and has manifested (Jesus etc. that we hold as fundemental; and those concepts cannot be skewed or perverted, and occultism above all others does so. freemasony IS in fact a religion, and it is a perfect example of a message heretical to Jesus' http://www.cuttingedge.org/free001a.htm , as is Skull and Bones and the present day illuminists




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Tuesday, September 19, 2006 7:40 PM

DREAMTROVE


I don't accept that Freemasonry is a religion, I think it's indifferent to religion. It's a trade guild. It was always a trade guild, and it's not much different accept for its level of power.

Muslims are under attack from the NWO, that goes without saying. I think that in this to at least some extent, they are being driven by Israel.

Whatever the NWO is, I can tell you one thing it is not. It is not a branch of freemasonry. Freemasonry has collapsed in recent years, which largely seems to be due to a lack of funding. With the assets that the NWO has at its disposal, and the need that it has for a continued base of support, it would seem illogical for this to happen. Logically, it is also clear, that the current trend of extreme policy does not date back any further than the early 20th c. and mostly from the mid 20th, and hence is nowhere near as old as the masons.

The only connection between the two is terribly tenuous and of little significance. Adam Weishaupt, founder of the Bavarian Illuminati (not to be confused with the original Illuminati) was a member of a masonic order, from which he was expelled. After his expulsion, he created the BI, and within a few years he and all of his followers were arrested. William Henry Russell, founder of Skull and Bones, not himself a Mason, was an admirerer of Weishaupt's, though there is no evidence the two ever met. He established Phi Beta Kappa in emulation of the BI. When that became too public, he tried again and created 'Scull' and Bones [sic] That's an extremely weak connection. Give me any two organizations on Earth and I can probably draw a stronger one. Israel and Nazi Germany have stronger ties, as do the Bush administration and Al Qaeda.

Re: Jesus

Either Jon Stewart or Steven Colbert said 'we believe the Bible is inerrant because the bible says it is inerrant' - I hope you see the flaw in that logic. Nothing is certain, there's a decent chance the bible is lying, or at best, guessing. We don't know what Jesus said, specifically, except for the generality. The people constructing the text into a volume in around 300 ad, which is the book that later became what we have, we made by people with an agenda, and a vested interest in a result. I can't say for sure that Jesus said or believed that he was a God, and I don't imagine you can either. The reason I would say such a thing is that Jesus strikes me as a particular type of character, humble to a fault, and having no shortage of a healthy amount of self doubt. For such a person to proclaim themselves divine seems not only unseemly, but unlikely. It seems far more likely to me that someone else proclaimed Jesus the Son of God, than that he did so himself.

I have a point here, which is: The bible says XYZ. Yes, no, maybe so, but the reality of life is that Jesus walked on this Earth and said these words, an inescapable reality. The bible's accurate recording of those events is impossible because the bible, regardless of what it says, is a book, written by humans, which are flawed. Ergo, common sense dictates that everything which is written is at best an approximation, and at worst a fabrication. Therefore, the true nature of Jesus is to some extent unknown. I am certain the early christians understood this, which is why they took separate and equally valid paths to know jesus better. One was through academic study, the "gnostic" tradition, and the other through inner contemplation, the "mystic" tradition.

One mistake that christians make, and I do say mistake, because i am sure it is one, is that they believe that:
If Jesus was not the litteral son of god
or Jesus did not rise from the grave
or Jesus was not possessed of divine (magical) powers to perform miracles

... that their religion has no purpose or reason for being, and it cannot exist.

Nothing is further from the truth. Each of these magical beliefs undoubtedly corrupts the original vision of the actual Jesus Christ, and weakens the end result. The additional superstition and ritual thrust upon the faith by these assumptions most certainly embellished or possibly created out of whole cloth by later followers only stands in the way of that ultimate initial goal - to better know Christ.

If these things, from a chrisitan perspective, are blasphemous, then that only goes to prove my point. Objectively, I'm fairly certain that they are, at least to some extent, so.

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Tuesday, September 19, 2006 9:17 PM

HKCAVALIER


Heya antimason,

I've been wanting to reply to various of your posts, but it's tough to keep track of your ideas because you mostly say the same things over and over and at great length, so trying to have a converstion under such conditions is a little like trying to have a converstation with a dictionary or an encyclopedia, it's hard to focus on any one issue and finish a thought.

Have you ever considered that Lucifer might have had a hand in creating the Bible as we know it? How could he not? As inspired as the men were who set it down, they were all of them as fallen as Adam. I recognize that you're a man of good will and good faith, but the websites you link to preach fear. Anybody preaching fear is not preaching Christ, antimason. Anyone preaching fear is preaching from the book of Lucifer.

In your latest link, there's a list of all the evil things Freemasons are into and the great majority that stuff is utterly benign and some of it is even sanctioned by Saint Paul as "gifts of the spirit." Here's the list:
Quote:
Alchemy; Ancient Religions; Astral Body [Satanic practice]; Astrology [Forbidden in Bible]; Auto-Suggestion; Babylonian; Blavatsky, H.P. [one of the most Satanic Black Magick practitioners of all time! Her teachings were studied by Adolf Hitler and provided basis for the Jewish Holocaust]; Buddhism; Card Reading; Chaldean [Babylon and Chaldean Mysteries were brought into total annihilation by God for their severe Satanism, and is the same Babylon condemned in the Book of Revelation]; Christian Mysticism [This is the "Christianity" of Masonry, where every single doctrine is reinterpreted]; Christian Science [Fully anti-Christian but compatible with Masonry]; Clairvoyance [Satanic to the core and forbidden in the Bible]; Color and Sound [Critically important to Satanism]; Cosmic Consciousness [SATANIC]; Crystal Gazing [Forbidden in Bible]; Divination [Forbidden in Bible]; Druidism and Celts [Elevated human sacrifice to highest levels]; Eastern Doctrines; Esoteric Christianity [Redefining Christian doctrines]; Evolution [And you just thought Masonry was compatible with true Christianity]; Fortune Telling [Forbidden in Bible]; Geomancy and Gematria [Satanic]; Gnosticism [Fought against in the Epistles of Paul in the Bible]; Hermetic; Holy Grail [Satanic allegory to produce Antichrist]; Hypnotism; Islam; Karma [Satanic doctrine teaching Reincarnation]; Love and Sex Consciousness [Completely Satanic]; Magic [Forbidden in Bible]; Nature Worship [Sun Worship primary worship of Invisible Freemasonry]; Palmistry [Satanic Divination]; Phallicism [Worship of Male erect Sex Organ!]; Qabalah [Satanic Reinterpretation of Hebrew Old Testament]; Reincarnation; Rosicrucian [Satanic to the core]; Serpent Worship [Not only is Masonry a religion, it worships the Serpent, actually Satan himself]; Telepathy [Satanic communication without audible language]; Tarot [Divination forbidden in Bible]; Transcendental Physics; Zoroastrianism [Satanic cult destroyed by God in Old Testament].
Whew! I've itallicized the subjects I have either studied extensively or practiced myself and I tell you that none of what I've practiced is demonic or evil.

Buddhism is not evil. Tarot reading is not evil. Clairvoyance and telepathy and precognition are simply aspects of perception. Most of this stuff is simply available because the Universe is saturated with meaning and sometimes people just can't help picking up on it. Pick up enough and you begin to see patterns and connections, so that the movement of the stars and the birth of another human soul have a real discernable connection. Have you studied any of these subjects yourself? Are you afraid to? Reading these websites to find out about "the occult" is about as practical as watching Fox News to know what's going on in the world.

Yes, Freemasonry exists, and yes, it is Luciferian which is as evil as it gets, but it ain't because they believe in reincarnation. It's because they believe in Creation without Love; because they don't acknowledge the value and potential of all human souls equally; because they practice mind control and murder people for the same reason you might chug an energy drink.

The main reasons they study things like karma and clairvoyance, is because such things must be overcome if they are to work their evil will. They must be able to escape the karmic wheel and keep their actions secret. They must destroy the intuitive faculty first before they can influence anyone. You really aren't much good to evil if you cannot easily be deceived.

And as far as I know, the Bible is a tool of deceit as well. Anyone who claimes that the Bible is the uncorrupted word of God is deceiving you. Once you have accepted that lie, then they can tell you what you can and cannot do, where you should put your money and whom you should trust.

But Jesus said:
Quote:
"If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.

But the Kingdom is inside you and outside you. When you truly know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will know that you are the sons of the Living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you are impoverished, and you are poverty itself!
Is it not possible, antimason, that the Bible has been corrupted, that it is an imperfect document? Is it not possible then that the whole truth of Jesus Christ is to be found elsewhere?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, September 19, 2006 11:30 PM

TOBEDOG


I'm going with a combination of 1 and 2.

This is my humble opinion.

As for blame?

What blame. This is history repeating itself again and again. War between religions is never going to end. Its one religious extreme against the other religious extreme. It has been going on since time was time. No one person or country is going to change the way religion is interpreded. What we can change is to provide a safe haven for innocent people that don't have those same ideals. And that is the solution. Its the right to choose vs being forced to comply at the end of a rifle.



"Six men came to kill me one time. The best of 'em carried this. Its a Killhan Full-Bore Auto Lock, customized trigger, double-cartridge through-gage. It is my very favorite gun."

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Wednesday, September 20, 2006 2:16 AM

CANTTAKESKY


DT,

There is another option, which is that Osama was not involved, but individual Al-Qaeda cells were (independently of Osama).

Anyway, I am curious why Osama is not wanted for 9/11 but for the Nairobi bombings. If there is so much clear EVIDENCE that links Osama to 9/11, I'd expect he'd be wanted equally for both incidents--at least. http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm
To me, it's kind of like accusing someone of murder, but charging them with breaking and entering. It leaves me scratching my head.

Anyway, re your poll, my answer is I don't know and I wouldn't blame anyone conclusively. In my view, a proper and decent investigation has never been conducted, so we simply don't have the facts. However, if I could conduct an investigation myself, I'd start looking at possible suspects in 4, 6, 7, 8, 1, in that order.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Wednesday, September 20, 2006 4:42 AM

DREAMTROVE


HK

well put over all, this is the snag, only one problem: You can learn plenty from FoxNews. I think you mean I think that it's like watching Hannity&Colmes to find out what's going on in the world. The reporting itself is pretty good. It was fox news down at the wtc on 9-11, and in new orleans for katrina giving us the best coverage i saw.

Actually, I'd go one further, it's like listening to press releases from the whitehouse, or more like listening to a Bush speech to find out what's going on in the world. Yesterday he said "because of Hezbollah's unprovoked attack on Israel" Hey, commander in chimp, we were there, we all remember Israel attacking first.


CTTS,

Yeah, well, when I started digging there was increasingly a lack of evidence connecting Osama to 9-11, until for me, it came down to none at all. The option you stated was one I initially had up, and then clipped because I wanted a logical progression so that if we averaged it out, it would make sense.

The thing is Osama is probably really responsible for the Nairobi thing, he does a lot of his work in Africa. I think he's been a couple of times to Darfur.

I don't think the pegging of Osama was malicious, I think it was just typical our govt. in action. They had this theory about bin Laden all built up, and when it happened, they assumed Osama had done it. By the govt. I mean our CIA/FBI/and counter terrorism. The problem is that whoever actually did it knew this, and it made an excellent cover for the crime.

I believed for years that Osama had done it, but the case kept falling apart on me. Our confession tape of Osama is not only undeniably bogus, but has been disowned by our own CIA. The guy was just some actor, and someone working for us created the tape in afgh. We didn't "find it in the first house we looked, sitting on the table" which is the story. Minus this, things degenerate. We have two tapes from Bin Laden saying he didn't do it, one saying he wished he had done this, but the Taliban prevented him. Now he has the world to gain from getting credit for this thing, so why deny it?

The truth is, by this point, virtually everything we hear from "Al Qaeda" today is a fraud. Some of it is being cooked up by our own govt., other by endless muslim groups who want to be al qaeda. Even Al Zarqawi was basically a pretender. He knew Bin Laden and Zawahiri personally, but they didn't hire him to do the job.

This whole AQ organization is very different from how we view it. When muslims in the ME read our analysis, they beat their heads against the wall. It's not a command structure. If it's similar in construction to anything american I'd say probably the Underground Railroad.

I met a guy whose job it was to unravel tapes from al qaeda, and discern their intent based on the messages. When you consider that there is a mix of actual AQ, us govt., and random muslims, any such analysis is going to produce randomly bogus results.

Anyway, curious thing you point out. I think it's possible that AQ members w/o bin laden did it, even more probably than that bin laden was involved, but we're not 7/11. The united state is a little harder than robbing a convenience store. In fact, attacking the US without defense is impossible. You need a guy on the inside. Now I'm really pretty damn near certain of it, but it took a long time to sink in to my thick skull. That, plus, examining the whole thing as a physics problem, it would never happen. You can try this a million times, and you will never collapse a building by flying a plane into it. Let alone three.

Hitting three buildings with two planes is like hitting three birds with two stones. Also not going to happen. After much hemming and hawing, eventually I had to concede that part of the puzzle, and I was still on "How did Bin Laden..." get in and plant bombs in the building, and why did he want it to look like the planes did it. The why is obvious, for any suspect: Spectacle. But the how is trickier.

Someone needs a window of opportunity. They need it more than once. One: They need at least 12 hours I'd say, alone with the WTC. All other things being equal, I'm sure of this. Maybe they could do it in 8, but honestly I doubt it could be done in 12. If I were the terrorists I would try to set myself up with a block of 36 to 48 hours.

Second, you need a window for the plan attack. This means a security and military stand down all over the path of attack.

Even if Osama bin laden and Al Qaeda are the sole people involved, what we're dealing with here is a conspiracy, by definition. They *have* to set the whole thing up. The official story is a classic conspiracy theory, constructed by people who actually believed it was true. The only problem is it didn't work.

The US official story hasn't changed, and the 9-11 commission was created not to change the story, but to determine what govt. structural changes would be needed, and so they too, did not question the story. Those people who constructed the story had many years of experience on us. But those years worked against them as well as for them. US involvement was not a major issue in their regular line of work, it probably didn't even occur to them. They had to cook up a result for the president and had to do it in very short amount of time. But the terrorists had been planning this for years, and though the rest of us don't have those years of training, we had years to unravel it, which was probably what was needed. A random group of citizens, given years, will eventually out do a team of experts two days work.

Any crime is about motive, means and opportunity. OBL had motive coming out his ears. Did he have means? I doubt it, I think it's really a stretch. Did he, by himself, have opportunity? Not a chance.

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Wednesday, September 20, 2006 8:24 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I think you mean I think that it's like watching Hannity&Colmes to find out what's going on in the world.
Sorry if I'm pickin' nits here, but I didn't mean to say that antimason's research was totally worthless, only that if his exclusive sources for what is "occult" are these sites then he will never get the full story and what is worse, he may never realize it.

Not the most eloquent analogy I ever came up with, that's for sure.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, September 20, 2006 11:52 AM

ANTIMASON


Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I don't accept that Freemasonry is a religion, I think it's indifferent to religion. It's a trade guild. It was always a trade guild, and it's not much different accept for its level of power.


so we should just discard the profound collective esoteric symbology that Masonry devotes itself to? they are not indifferent if they have a set belief system; especially one that is proven to be luciferian. as i said before luciferianism is a seperate religion from christianity; it is(in a sense)another abrahamic religion, only it includes what judeo/christianity would refer to as occultism. keep in mind, WE BELIEVE* that A God entity created everything in existence; including superhuman entities, ie Lucifer and the fallen angels, which at one point interfered with Man on earth. we believe that the pre-deluvian era, ie pre-flood, was when these events occurred; but also afterwards, as Moses says it genesis. when i refer to occultism, i refer to the worship of these beings, which were percieved as deities, and which the bible explicitly points out, came to decieve us. anything that fits within this paradigm, is what im personally refferring to when i dispute the occult;because it is all interrelated.

Quote:
Muslims are under attack from the NWO, that goes without saying. I think that in this to at least some extent, they are being driven by Israel.


i agree.. if you use America as mystery Babylon, then prophecy indicates that Israel and America both give rise to this final global government of antichrist; in fact, Israel will be decieved by the antichrist because he will appear to fullfill the prophecies of the coming of the messiah(actually, the return, but they didnt recognize him the first time). the current state of Israel is a Talmudic Israel, which came out of ancient Babylon. the problem is these diceptive heresies, which are occult in nature(once again, i refer you to my first comment), are creating in essence an anti-christianity

Quote:
Whatever the NWO is, I can tell you one thing it is not. It is not a branch of freemasonry. Freemasonry has collapsed in recent years, which largely seems to be due to a lack of funding. With the assets that the NWO has at its disposal, and the need that it has for a continued base of support, it would seem illogical for this to happen. Logically, it is also clear, that the current trend of extreme policy does not date back any further than the early 20th c. and mostly from the mid 20th, and hence is nowhere near as old as the masons.


freemasonry has facilitated the NWO, just as the Illuminati has. is it a coincidence that both idealogies share this utopic concept of a "new atlantis" and this pre-destined new order of the ages? the central banks are key to this agenda, and the America central bank has masonic symbolism on its currency; washington DC has masonic symbology... to me, there is something more profound occurring then most people are willing to accept

this debate isnt about whether God exists.. we all know how that goes; im telling you what the bible says; if you dont believe that A God exists, or that the bible is accurate, then nothing i have to say will convince you that these relationships are genuine

Quote:
The only connection between the two is terribly tenuous and of little significance. Adam Weishaupt, founder of the Bavarian Illuminati (not to be confused with the original Illuminati) was a member of a masonic order, from which he was expelled. After his expulsion, he created the BI, and within a few years he and all of his followers were arrested. William Henry Russell, founder of Skull and Bones, not himself a Mason, was an admirerer of Weishaupt's, though there is no evidence the two ever met. He established Phi Beta Kappa in emulation of the BI. When that became too public, he tried again and created 'Scull' and Bones [sic] That's an extremely weak connection. Give me any two organizations on Earth and I can probably draw a stronger one. Israel and Nazi Germany have stronger ties, as do the Bush administration and Al Qaeda.


but can they be classified as occult? if so then their agendas inadvertantly align in so-many ways. for example the Thule society(of the Nazis) is not really the same as the Illuminati; but their concepts of a superhuman arian race which supposedly existed around the pre-deluvian era is exactly the message of the fallen angels of Gen 6. the Illuminati admittedly worship Lucifer, another(albeit greatest)of the fallen angels.. but these are concepts reffered to in the bible

Quote:
Re: Jesus

Either Jon Stewart or Steven Colbert said 'we believe the Bible is inerrant because the bible says it is inerrant' - I hope you see the flaw in that logic.


im going to be pefectly honost with you, because this is one of those questions, like "how do you know God exists", that cannot be proven until it is revealed to you; thats what im counting on. im telling you what the prophecy says, if its fullfilled, then you will know

Quote:
Nothing is certain, there's a decent chance the bible is lying, or at best, guessing. We don't know what Jesus said, specifically, except for the generality. The people constructing the text into a volume in around 300 ad, which is the book that later became what we have, we made by people with an agenda, and a vested interest in a result.


the Romans compiled the bible, but they didnt write it; interpretation i believe is key to christian hereses, and the Roman culture was heavely involved in (what i would call) occultism during the rise of christianity, so in that regard am not suprised that a perversion would occur. but the gospels were written by people who were witness to Jesus'; time did pass before they were recorded, but knowledge was maintained orally, and anything which did not conform to their recorded message was not used. pretend for a second that Jesus did exist; what would you expect of a collection of 1st century biographers? historians are willing to accept ancient historical accounts with far less written evidence then Jesus', so lets not be too hypocritical here

Quote:
I can't say for sure that Jesus said or believed that he was a God, and I don't imagine you can either.


it is most often implied, because Jesus couldnt say it bluntly, or the Jews would have killed him before the appointed time. but he does refer to himself in this context, God manifest in the form of Man; the NT authors made that clear, having been witness to his ressurection; just as with the apostle Paul. ultimately its the fundemental message that people are denying

Quote:
The reason I would say such a thing is that Jesus strikes me as a particular type of character, humble to a fault, and having no shortage of a healthy amount of self doubt. For such a person to proclaim themselves divine seems not only unseemly, but unlikely. It seems far more likely to me that someone else proclaimed Jesus the Son of God, than that he did so himself.


if he hadnt reappeared three days later, it wouldnt have mattered.. bhudda didnt claim to be God did he? wouldnt that make him crazy?

Quote:
I have a point here, which is: The bible says XYZ. Yes, no, maybe so, but the reality of life is that Jesus walked on this Earth and said these words, an inescapable reality. The bible's accurate recording of those events is impossible because the bible, regardless of what it says, is a book, written by humans, which are flawed.


i agree with you on this, humans are imperfect. but humans alone did not manifest the message of the bible, nor the prophecies, nor the prophets, and especially not Jesus. if Jesus quotes the prophets of the OT, and Jesus is GOd then that offers some credibility; the NT was the new covenant, by which all of humanity would hear the message of God in the flesh; we couldnt do that if the message never got to us. i realize that answer takes a lot of faith, but i consider everything ive talked about to be evidence in itself

Quote:
Ergo, common sense dictates that everything which is written is at best an approximation, and at worst a fabrication. Therefore, the true nature of Jesus is to some extent unknown. I am certain the early christians understood this, which is why they took separate and equally valid paths to know jesus better. One was through academic study, the "gnostic" tradition, and the other through inner contemplation, the "mystic" tradition.


but the gnostics dont teach the same message as JEsus; most the time they deny his deity, which the disciples were well aware was the sign of an antichrist (2john1)

Quote:
One mistake that christians make, and I do say mistake, because i am sure it is one, is that they believe that:
If Jesus was not the litteral son of god
or Jesus did not rise from the grave
or Jesus was not possessed of divine (magical) powers to perform miracles

... that their religion has no purpose or reason for being, and it cannot exist.


it changes everything; Jesus says that just as he was ressurrected from the dead, so too shall we; if we believe in his message and shape ourselves in his image; that death is not the end, but the beginning, and that their is a God of the universe, who repays everyone in full. yet even this is not sufficient to change the sinful nature of people hearts... anything less would be a complete failure.

Quote:
Nothing is further from the truth. Each of these magical beliefs undoubtedly corrupts the original vision of the actual Jesus Christ, and weakens the end result. The additional superstition and ritual thrust upon the faith by these assumptions most certainly embellished or possibly created out of whole cloth by later followers only stands in the way of that ultimate initial goal - to better know Christ.

If these things, from a chrisitan perspective, are blasphemous, then that only goes to prove my point. Objectively, I'm fairly certain that they are, at least to some extent, so.


the christ you are refferring to is Satan, by your definition.. i just want to make that clear to you

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Thursday, September 21, 2006 12:20 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:
Masonry


No, they haven't. It's a stretch at best. This is what I consider part of the christian problem. You are launching a viscious attack on a group which has nothing to do with you, which is not you're enemy, you chuck labels at it like "evil," and "satan." I'm not a mason, but I can look around me, masons are just folks. They build houses, grow corn, and feed their families. They're not unlike Bin Laden in that regard, or me and you. They don't destroy the world with evil satanic plots. I suspect someone has been feeding you propoganda.


Quote:
WE BELIEVE*


If that belief demands that there can have been no other person with independent thought and will other than the God which you have created, than I humbly suggest that this believe may be flawed.

Quote:
anything that fits within this paradigm,


You're paradigm seems at times to be too broad.

Quote:
Israel and America both give rise to this final global government


This seems in tune with the reality I know.

Quote:
freemasonry has facilitated the NWO, just as the Illuminati has.


Or Og the Caveman. This is reaching. No one was *this* NWO except those at the table who laid out this NWO. If someone used the phrase before, that means nothing. The creation of democracy to replace monarchy was once the NWO, but that is now the OWO. This NEW NWO is something new, created by a new group of people, none of them masons.

Quote:
is it a coincidence that both idealogies share this utopic concept of a "new atlantis" and this pre-destined new order of the ages?


Possibly.

Quote:
the central banks are key to this agenda, and the America central bank has masonic symbolism on its currency; washington DC has masonic symbology... to me, there is something more profound occurring then most people are willing to accept


Or, they are a communist plot.

Quote:
this debate isnt about whether God exists.. we all know how that goes; im telling you what the bible says; if you dont believe that A God exists, or that the bible is accurate, then nothing i have to say will convince you that these relationships are genuine


The converse is probably also true. We must agree to disagree about this. My religion has no supreme entity, and I see no need for one, in fact, I think he gets in the way of the faith. But this is the difference of our beliefs. Nothing will change this. For one of us to lose our faith would defeat this argument, and so I don't want that. We each represent upwards of a billion people. If a Hindu or a Bhuddist or a Muslim would join in, each one would bring another billion. Our debate here, is, to me, symbolic of a worldwide debate. Just like the arguments I have with democrats are based on the idea that if we don't unite on some common ground against a common enemy, we are lost, so too with this. Such a common ground, however, *must* be a logical basis for a lack of content, *not* a gentlemen's agreement, since we are not speaking for ourselves, but instead we are representing vast ideologies, which too must come into some sort of alignment against evil, or evil will win. Such an alliance must *NOT* require any group to switch from left to right or christian to non-christian, as if it does, it will certainly fail.

Quote:
Quote:
The only connection between the two is terribly tenuous and of little significance. Adam Weishaupt, founder of the Bavarian Illuminati (not to be confused with the original Illuminati) was a member of a masonic order, from which he was expelled. After his expulsion, he created the BI, and within a few years he and all of his followers were arrested. William Henry Russell, founder of Skull and Bones, not himself a Mason, was an admirerer of Weishaupt's, though there is no evidence the two ever met. He established Phi Beta Kappa in emulation of the BI. When that became too public, he tried again and created 'Scull' and Bones That's an extremely weak connection. Give me any two organizations on Earth and I can probably draw a stronger one. Israel and Nazi Germany have stronger ties, as do the Bush administration and Al Qaeda.

but can they be classified as occult? if so then their agendas inadvertantly align in so-many ways. for example the Thule society(of the Nazis) is not really the same as the Illuminati; but their concepts of a superhuman arian race which supposedly existed around the pre-deluvian era is exactly the message of the fallen angels of Gen 6. the Illuminati admittedly worship Lucifer, another(albeit greatest)of the fallen angels.. but these are concepts reffered to in the bible


Occult was not the issue, I meant that there were ties which could easily be drawn between groups that accually *do* oppose one another, so just drawing a tenuous conspiracy theory connection is no proof of an actual conspiracy.


Quote:
Re: Jesus

Either Jon Stewart or Steven Colbert said 'we believe the Bible is inerrant because the bible says it is inerrant' - I hope you see the flaw in that logic.



Quote:
im going to be pefectly honost with you, because this is one of those questions, like "how do you know God exists", that cannot be proven until it is revealed to you; thats what im counting on. im telling you what the prophecy says, if its fullfilled, then you will know


I'm not your key into heaven for a bonus conversion point. I might be your ally in defeating evil. You have to accept this. I read your book, and was unmoved by its message. It's intriguing, but I made a conscious decision to follow a chinese librarian because I really thought about it, without a prior bias, and decided he was right. Countless other people did the same thing, and came up with many differing conclusions.

Quote:
the Romans compiled the bible, but they didnt write it;


They had ample opportunity to make slight changes. Wasn't sayint they wrote it, but they could have corrupted it, as good have any King of Judea, or other regional ruler, theologian, or scribe. We have no way of knowing.


Quote:
interpretation i believe is key to christian hereses, and the Roman culture was heavely involved in (what i would call) occultism during the rise of christianity, so in that regard am not suprised that a perversion would occur. but the gospels were written by people who were witness to Jesus';


Ah, but which gospels? The gnostic gospels were as well. I suspect that the romans elected to remove them because they didn't like some conclusions which might come out of them - Such as the one which has surfaced in the DaVinci code et al. - wouldn't an actual line of Jesus be a threat to the Vatican's last word on God? What if the Pope said "Jesus meant this" and then someone else said "No, my grandfather did not mean that, he meant this." Who would the people believe? (Chaos would also ensue.)

Quote:
time did pass before they were recorded, but knowledge was maintained orally, and anything which did not conform to their recorded message was not used. pretend for a second that Jesus did exist; what would you expect of a collection of 1st century biographers? historians are willing to accept ancient historical accounts with far less written evidence then Jesus', so lets not be too hypocritical here


Not failing to accept the *existence* of Jesus. Just the infallible accuracy of the text.

Quote:
it is most often implied, because Jesus couldnt say it bluntly, or the Jews would have killed him before the appointed time. but he does refer to himself in this context, God manifest in the form of Man; the NT authors made that clear, having been witness to his ressurection; just as with the apostle Paul. ultimately its the fundemental message that people are denying


Honestly., I don't think he actually believed this. I'm just guessing, but I'm a good guesser.

Quote:
if he hadnt reappeared three days later, it wouldnt have mattered.. bhudda didnt claim to be God did he? wouldnt that make him crazy?


The Bhudda was never in a position to proclaim to be a god, and it would have never occurred to him to do so. He was a professor, and his teachings did not become a religion until many centuries after his death.

Lao Tse also did not claim to be a god, and it never would have occurred to him to do so. Taoism had existed for millenia before him, and it was the search for the way. After him, it was pretty much accepted that the way had been found, and that he was the one who had found it.

Quote:
i agree with you on this, humans are imperfect. but humans alone did not manifest the message of the bible, nor the prophecies, nor the prophets, and especially not Jesus.


Well. some tress were involved. From your perspective, sure, the men were inspired by God. From my perspective, there is no God.

Quote:
if Jesus quotes the prophets of the OT, and Jesus is GOd then that offers some credibility; the NT was the new covenant, by which all of humanity would hear the message of God in the flesh; we couldnt do that if the message never got to us. i realize that answer takes a lot of faith, but i consider everything ive talked about to be evidence in itself


Anyone can quote the old testament and provide conclusions. Ahmadinejad can do it, as can Mahamta Ghandi who said "an eye for an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." All of us basically agree. Does this make Ghandi a god? Maybe, come back in a hundred years, and their may be followers of Ghanism.

Also. Your point implies that jesus may have said he was a god, but have lied to give the message weight. (at least, that would be an outside interpretation of what you said, assuming no actual god) I think this is possible, it's occurred to me, but it's more likely it seems to me, that he never actually said it about himself, but that someone else said it about him.

Quote:
but the gnostics dont teach the same message as JEsus; most the time they deny his deity, which the disciples were well aware was the sign of an antichrist (2john1)


They were an attempt to find the truth through study, which I always consider valid. I'm not vouching for their accuracy, but this is of value to historians. A curious side note, Shiia and Sunnis are split over a very similar line. The Hadith, a collection of recollections of witnesses to the life of Mohammed which the sunnis believe to be apochrapha, but the shiia take literally. (I believe I have this right.)

Quote:
it changes everything; Jesus says that just as he was ressurrected from the dead, so too shall we;


No, he doesn't. If he is dead, and didn't rise, than he doesn't say that. Maybe some voice in someones head says that in a vision, but that doesn't make it jesus. In revelations he condemns the world with a sword from his mouth. Does that sound like the mild mannered carpenter in the first book? No, of course not, because it isn't.

Quote:
if we believe in his message and shape ourselves in his image; that death is not the end, but the beginning, and that their is a God of the universe, who repays everyone in full. yet even this is not sufficient to change the sinful nature of people hearts... anything less would be a complete failure.


Thats hinging on an awful lot. I think his message seems perfectly valid without the theocratic posturing, and possibly more valid.

Quote:
the christ you are refferring to is Satan, by your definition.. i just want to make that clear to you


Utter Nonsense. This Jesus I described is a man who walk on Earth, as he was, without your romans' magical emballishment. EIther you worship Christ, or you don't. If you worship roman, call yourself roman catholic. I have no definition of satan, I do not believe in satan. Satan is a corruption of Seten, a form of the Egyptian god of the desert, whose name means "one who dazzles." (appropriate) All the other names you lump into Satan were other deities, which were not one common entity ot the writers of the various books of the OT. Seth himself, like all egyptian gods, was undoubtedly at some point a real person, and not a god.

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