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Originally posted by kaneman:
I do not confuse natural selection and adaption with evolution, it is an error many a man makes. But you, genius, are smarter than that. Thank god

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Only problem is most on this board would agree that I am a troll. What does that have to do with your inability to pad your opinion with scientific proof and statistical probabilities? Or your ability to stay on topic and not be purposefully evasive?

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Originally posted by citizen:
Good to hear you missed me sweetheart, but as I keep telling you, all the wishful thinking in the world ain't gonna make me gay, I'm sorry, but I just don't think of you that way.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Please don't feed the trolls.


I try not to but Citz keeps responding to me. I find it hard to ignore him.

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Originally posted by citizen:
You are talking to yourself again, better see to that.

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Signym: Religion doesn't belong in a scientific debate.

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Antimason: but to say that religion doesnt belong in any debate is just biased and unfair.

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you're one dog away from the Son of Sam.

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"altogether Enoch lived 365 years. Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, becase God took him away"

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"by faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. for before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God" Heb. 11:5

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"for if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment"

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"and the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abondonded their own home, these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chaings for judgment on the Great Day"

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"the people who live there are powerful, and the cities are fortified and very large. we even saw the descendants of Anak there. (31)but the men who had gone up with him said "we cant attack those people; they are stronger then we are." and they spread among the Israelites a bad report about the land they had explored. they said "the land we explored devours those living in it. all the people we saw there are of great size. we saw the Nephilim there(the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). we seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them"

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"their were nephilim on the earth in those days; and also afterward, when the Sons of God came into the daughters of men and had offspring by them".

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"It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful. 2And when the angels, (3) the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children."

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And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. 2. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: 3. Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, 4. the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. 5. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. 6. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

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. And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another:..."Bring our cause before the Most High.".' And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords' .... Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Azâzêl hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: And Semjâzâ, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth.

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heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:


Antimason, if you say "all gods are fallen angels according to my religion" then I don't argue. But when you say "all religions are a warped form of my religion," which you have said before, then I argue because that is factually incorrect, because religions spread across the earth as a historical fact.

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we all share the fallen angelic thesis, although it is described through the lens of each individual culture.

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posted by DreamTrove-

I'm completely unconvinced. I think there is a possibility to deliberately misinterpret the text,

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but this is more than that, it's also taking the textual perspective and using it as the basis for a historical account to say that religions essentially spread from israel and mutated, which we know historically to not be the case.

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I'm becoming increasingly convinced that the original hebrew creation myth was El-centric, and that Jesus was an outlander who worshipped El, who he addresses in the text by name. As not a servant of Yhwh, he has a very different picture of divinity, with peace and forgiveness, instead of vengeance, jealousy and war.

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The original god of the heavens is not Yhwh, but rather that would be El, the high one, god of the heavens, who married the god of the sea, and became god of rain. Yhwh was born in his earliest myths in a cave of fire inside of or under Mt. Sinai, also known as he who shall not be named, the nameless one, and Yahoveha the God of War.

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It's possible, from a christian perspective that their is a fundemental inconsistancy here, and that historically, I think this is caused by Paul, and his crowd, who forced the merger of Yhwh+Jesus and of OT+NT to try to bring conversion to the jews, but instead infected his new religion with Yhwh, God of War.

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The religion is split into warring factions because such is the will of God. As God of war he would thrive on conflict, and would deliberately split his followers and pit them against one another. Nothing seems more natural for a God of war.

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But the adoption of the creator title could be seen as totally malicious, and deceptive. Yhwh is the creator according to the cult of Yhwh, because Yhwh says that it is so. But an objective read of his book shows Yhwh to be basically evil, maybe evil without restriction or reservation.

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When taken that the original genesis creation myth, from a historical perspective was most certainly not written about Yhwh, that assigning the proper perspective, Yhwh becomes the deity who claims to be God but isn't. Thus Yhwh worship becomes its own worst nightmare, the worship of its own Satan.

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It would be a paralyzing thought if it were my faith, and I can see why you would balk at the concept. But you also should seriously consider the possibility that what I say is true, just as an objective outside perspective on the development of things in the christian faith. I think that such a development would go a long way to explain the schitzophrenic nature of the christian character, loving of peace and thirsting for war. If it were my faith, I'd want to be very sure that the God that I was worshipping was the God of Jesus Christ, and not a horned creature which lived in a fiery pit. Just a thought.

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http://www.biped.info/index.html

BIPED MANIFESTO

This website has no religious leanings. It has been created as a resource to collect various writings of Darwinian Dissent and to link to similar sites to share information. The projected aims of this website - to be collectively fulfilled by any who want to be involved - are the following:

1. To teach what evolution is and what it isn't. To assist those interested in gaining an understanding of Darwinian evolution and, more specifically, to teach them to distinguish between what Darwin proposed as the science behind the evolution of forms, and what his followers, so-called neo-Darwinists, have misinterpreted in popular writings as Darwin's thesis. Read the articles and you will learn.

2. And you thought there was only Darwin vs. God? To show that there are valid scientific alternatives to Darwinian evolution other than "creation," although we are not particularly opposed to that term ("if it walks like a duck"). Among other alternatives, variations and meldings of "creationism" and "evolution" that will be introduced, along with the proponents of these theories, are the following: Intelligent Design Theory, Gaia Hypothesis, Theory of Formative Causation, Vitalism, Astrogenesis, Panspermia, Ballistic Panspermia, Information Theory, Systems Theory, Extraterrestrial Seeding, Genetic Manipulation and some crossing, blending or borrowing between these theories.

3. The Catastrophic pre-history of Earth To look at the facts of Catastrophism (which Darwinists avoid because it messes up their peaceful little world as it is evolving) as a system of cyclic destruction and creation of life forms on Earth. We will discuss the bearing this has on Darwinian evolution, as many scientists come forth to admit the universe, the cellular world and the fossil record all implicate intelligent design.

These statements about Darwinian theory may surprise you:

Evolution is a Rag Hypothesis.
I am quite conscious that my speculations run beyond the bounds of true science... It is a mere rag of an hypothesis with as many flaw[s] and holes as sound parts. - Charles Darwin to Asa Gray

Evolution doesn't explain the origin of species.
Darwin did not really explain the origin of new species in The Origin of Species, because he didn't know how to define species. The Origin was in fact concerned mostly with how a single species might change in time, not how one species might proliferate into many. - Douglas Futuyma

Evolution is Defective.
The theory of evolution suffers from grave defects, which are more and more apparent as time advances. It can no longer square with practical scientific knowledge. - Dr A. Fleishmann, Zoologist

Evolution is Pure Fantasy.
In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions. In general, these have not been found. Yet, the optimism has died hard and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks. - David M. Raup, Geologist

Evolution is based on Ideology.
There is no evidence for a primeval soup… The belief that life on earth arose spontaneously from non-living matter is simply a matter of faith in strict reductionism and is based entirely on ideology. - Hubert Yockey, Information Theory

Evolution is Vague.
The fact that a theory so vague, so insufficiently verifiable, and so far from the criteria otherwise applied in 'hard' science has become a dogma can only be explained on sociological grounds. - Ludwig von Bertalanffy, Biologist

Evolution is a Gnostic Myth.
The doctrine of evolution has swept the world, not on the strength of its scientific merits, but precisely in its capacity as a Gnostic myth. It affirms, in effect, that living beings created themselves, which is in essence a metaphysical claim... Evolutionism is a metaphysical doctrine decked out in scientific garb. - Wolfgang Smith

Evolution is a Pseudoscience.
Through use and abuse of hidden postulates, of bold, often ill-founded extrapolations, a pseudoscience has been created. It is taking root in the very heart of biology and is leading astray many biochemists and biologists, who sincerely believe that the accuracy of fundamental concepts has been demonstrated, which is not the case. - Pierre Grasse, Zoologist, former Chair of Evolution, Sorbonne University

Evolution without intelligent direction is improbable.
Even if the whole Universe consisted of organic soup... the chance of producing merely the basic enzymes of life by random processes without intelligent direction would be about 1 over a 1 with 40,000 zeros after it; a probability too small to imagine. - Sir Fred Hoyle, Astronomer, Modern Theory of Panspermia

Evolution does not explain consciousness.
The match between our intelligence and the intelligibility of the world is no accident. Nor can it properly be attributed to natural selection, which places a premium on survival and reproduction and has no stake in truth or conscious thought. Indeed, meat-puppet robots are just fine as the output of a Darwinian evolutionary process. - William Dembski, Mathematician, Intelligent Design Theory

Evolution is blind and selfish.
We are survival machines - robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes. - Richard Dawkins, Darwinist

Evolution involves Group Mind.
Using morphogenetic fields as the carrier of memory implies no absolute separation between minds. It suggests our identity is dual, like an electron that is both particle and wave. We have aspects that are unique and totally individual, yet at the same time much of our thought and behavior is shaped by, participates in, and helps to create transpersonal morphogenetic fields. Because our brains contain levels (mammalian, reptilian, etc.) that connect us to other species, that group mind includes all life. - Rupert Sheldrake, Biochemist, Theory of Formative Causation

Evolution is a Leak of Vital Force.
The process of evolution can only be described as the gradual insertion of more and more freedom into matter. ... In the amoeba, you might say that the impulse has manufactured a small leak through which free activity could be inserted into the world, and the process of evolution has been the gradual enlargement of this leak. - T.E. Hulme, Poet and Vitalist

Evolution is not Earth-Centered.
The real paradigm shift is to consider that the Universe is a life-producing nursery and that the genesis and evolution of life is not earth-centered but rather is distributed among the stars of the galaxies. - William F. Hamilton, Theory of Astrogenesis

Evolution is Blind Faith.
Evolutionary theory presents one of the most explicit examples of a priori reasoning, and even blind faith, ever seen in a supposedly scientific hypothesis. Books on evolution are full of the prior assumption that evolutionary theory is correct. The facts are then presented to fit the theory. - John Davidson, The Web of Life, Vitalist

Evolution has the Appearance of Being Impossible.
The information complexity in biological entities is very high and the probability of random mutations leading to more highly structured life forms has the appearance of being impossible. - Hubert Yockey, Physicist, Information Theory

Evolution is Not Based in Fact.
In fact the a priori reasoning is so entirely satisfactory to me that if the facts won't fit in, why so much the worse for the facts. - Erasmus Darwin (grandfather of Charles), in a letter to his brother Charles

Evolution is an Approximation.
I teach the synthetic theory known as the neo-Darwinian not because it's good, we know it is bad, but because there isn't any other. Whilst waiting to find something better you are taught something which is known to be inexact, which is a first approximation. - Professor Jerome Lejeune

Evolution is not Arguable.
In China its OK to criticize Darwin but not the government, in the United States its OK to criticize the government, but not Darwin. - Dr. J.Y. Chen, Chinese Paleontologist

Evolution is Embarrassing.
I have learned from my own embarrassing experience how easy it is to concoct remarkably persuasive Darwinian explanations that evaporate on closer inspection. - Daniel Dennett, Philosopher and Darwinist

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