Rush Limbaugh, Michael J. Fox and Parkinson's Disease by misbehaven

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

My father died of pneumonia due to Parkinson's disease. The diease isn't pretty to watch and it's not merely debilitating, it's always fatal. Pneumonia is how most suffers die, and it is mentally, physically and emotionally gruesome. Rush and other hacks need to understand that it's called a 'disease' for the reason that it demolishes the person for years until a brutal death. And that THAT might be why people who have Parkinson's disease and their families are looking for effective treatment, and maybe even a cure.

Rush Limbaugh - a rancid slab of bacon.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 9:14 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Perhaps he doesn't remember Janet Reno's distracting head-bob? Those were side effects from her Parkinson's meds.

Parkinson's is a very difficult disease to control, and in MJ Fox's version (which begins at an early age) the progression is more rapid that with later-onset Parkinson's. It is a balancing act between enough meds (L-dopa and related/ synergistic meds) and too much meds, and eventually you get all of the side effects but very little benefit.

But the right-wing is just desperate, and they'll stop at nothing.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 9:37 AM

WHIMSICALNBRAINPAN

My mother worked in nursing homes for years so I have seen the disease and know that it is not pretty. But come on, can anyone really be surprised that Rush Limbaugh said what he did? It is after all the same guy who said that junkies were useless human beings while addicted to pain killers. What happened though disgusting, is pure Rush Limbaugh.

"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." http://whimsicalnbrainpan.blogspot.com/

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:02 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:

It's sad that a person's political ideology can run so deeply, that he feels justified in verbally attacking someone who's suffering from a debilitating disease just because he disagrees with the other guy's politics.

I agree. I can't believe Fox would go around the country attacking people because he suffers from a debilitating illness just because he disagrees with their politics.

I listened to Rush. He said what he said. Then I watched the video on the News. Fox is moving around pretty bad. Then they show'd recent file footage where he wasn't moving at all. Then there is Fox's book were he talks about going off his medication before testifying before Congress to further illistrate (or exaggerate) the illness. I found that odd and it made me wonder.

Today Fox's Doctor revealed that the movement was less a part of the disease and more a side effect of the medication. Oh, ok. That explains it unless we hear credible evidence to the contrary. So now we know that Fox isn't faking, lets look at his argument.

Fox indicates in his ads that Candidate So-n-so wants to make stem cell research illegal and that the Democrat will make it so that they can research stem cells and find a cure for his disease.

1. Stem cell research is not illegal. None of the candidates targeted have indicated a desire to make it so.
2. In Maryland the Republican candidate is neutral on Stem cells and indicated openess to the idea of limited govt. funding. The Democrat, who Fox supports, voted for the ban.
3. Stem cell research is not a path to cure Fox's particular disease, although it is a potenital path to cure other diseases which are mentioned (like Alzheimer's).

I disagree with most of Limbaugh's personal comments about Fox, but the ads are political cheap shot, false and misleading, and Fox is taking advantage of his disease to generate sympathy for a pet cause. He deserves to be challenged on the issue, if not the medium he chose.

In short I think celebrity standard bearers should take a note from Bono and go after both parties rather then targeting one. If Democrats get control of the House, not one federal dollar will be spent on stem cells. Not one. Republicans will stall it, sabotage it, veto it, whatever they need to to stick it to Fox. Thats not a Republican thing, its how politics really works. I suspect Fox knows this and that his real cause is the Demcratic Party, not stem cell research.

H

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 11:53 AM

I personally found the ad very powerful. Here's a link if you haven't seen it yet.

More generally, I'm not surprised at all that Limbaugh and other Republicans (as evidenced by Hero's talking points spiel) are attacking Michael J. Fox. One of the worst things that could happen to the leaders of the Republican Party is for Americans to realize that the legislation they have been ramming through Congress, and that President Bush has been signing, impacts people personally. And that legislation they are cynically proposing to shore up their support among the far right fringe has a very real and direct impact on the quality of life of many Americans.

Ads like this, and the two VoteVets ads(

and

) put a human face on the other side of the equation. It's a face that the leadership of the conservative ruling majority does not want you to see. So they must attack as hard as they can. Attack. Always attack. Only one voice is allowed to be heard.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 12:09 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

urk!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 12:10 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Remember Bill Frist and Terry Schiavo? I think Limbaugh has gone to the Bill Frist School of Television Diagnosis.

Yes, it's terrible how a poltical party can use a person's diseases to further a cause (you know, like over-ruling judges from Congress) ...

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 1:18 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

How about a solution to the whole mess

Lets take the researchers and all the money that could be spent on said research, move it to Canada and get something done.

After all, the end goal is more important than the politics involved...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 1:44 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
And that legislation they are cynically proposing to shore up their support among the far right fringe has a very real and direct impact on the quality of life of many Americans.

You see it's statements like this, where you indicate that the American Government takes the opinions of religious extremists more importantly than quality of life for the majority of citizens, that I thank whoever it is I need to thank that I was born British.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 1:56 PM

KANEMAN

I think for Rush to downplay the destructiveness of this horrid disease is heinous at best. He must be back on the "Oxy"..Well, it sounds like it's true.........

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 1:56 PM

MISBEHAVEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I agree. I can't believe Fox would go around the country attacking people because he suffers from a debilitating illness just because he disagrees with their politics.

Fox didn't attack anyone. All he did was endorse a candidate who supports federal funding for stem cell research.

Quote:
I listened to Rush. He said what he said. Then I watched the video on the News. Fox is moving around pretty bad. Then they show'd recent file footage where he wasn't moving at all. Then there is Fox's book were he talks about going off his medication before testifying before Congress to further illistrate (or exaggerate) the illness. I found that odd and it made me wonder.

I'm not sure what footage you're referring to, but if it's the Boston Legal episodes, even the director has spoken about how they had to film in very short intervals to help cover Fox's movements.

Quote:
Fox indicates in his ads that Candidate So-n-so wants to make stem cell research illegal and that the Democrat will make it so that they can research stem cells and find a cure for his disease.

1. Stem cell research is not illegal. None of the candidates targeted have indicated a desire to make it so.

Ok, Hero. I'm sure that you're well aware that there's a serious movement, by a significant number of Republican voters, to pressure their party's leaders to ban stem cell research entirely. Also, federal funding remains unavailable for researching any stem cell line created after August 9, 2001 thanks to Bush.

Quote:
2. In Maryland the Republican candidate is neutral on Stem cells and indicated openess to the idea of limited govt. funding. The Democrat, who Fox supports, voted for the ban.

Now you're moving from being misleading to simply being dishonest. Here's an excerpt from your beloved Fox News: Steele is the Republican and Cardin is the Democrat

"Steele, Maryland's lieutenant governor, supports research on adult stem cells and umbilical cord blood, but not research that requires destroying an embryo to secure stem cells.

Fox has also recorded spots for Missouri Democratic Senate candidate Claire McCaskill, who is running against Republican James M. Talent, and for Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle, a Democrat seeking re-election. The actor is also planning to appear at events for two Democrats, Sen. Robert Menendez of New Jersey and Tammy Duckworth, an Illinois congressional candidate.

"He wants to take on races and get involved in races that involve a pro stem cell candidate against an anti embryonic stem cell candidate," John Rogers, a publicist for Fox, told The Washington Post.

Fox agreed to film the Maryland spot after an associate met Myrna Cardin, the candidate's wife, at a Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee event in Maryland last month, Cardin spokesman Oren Shur told The (Baltimore) Sun.

Cardin has voted in favor of the bill to expand federally funded research, a measure that cleared Congress but was vetoed by President Bush."

Here's the link: www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,224339,00.html

Quote:
3. Stem cell research is not a path to cure Fox's particular disease, although it is a potenital path to cure other diseases which are mentioned (like Alzheimer's).

Actually, stem cells might indeed be able to cure Parkinsons, Diabetes and, yes, Alzheimers

Quote:
but the ads are political cheap shot, false and misleading

The only thing false and misleading is your post.

Quote:
Fox is taking advantage of his disease to generate sympathy for a pet cause. He deserves to be challenged on the issue, if not the medium he chose.

Pet cause? In 2005, it was estimated that over one million Americans were suffering from Parkinsons and many millions more suffer from the disease worldwide. And what's wrong with the medium? To obtain federal funding, you need political support. Going straight to the people in charge seems like a good idea to me.

Quote:
In short I think celebrity standard bearers should take a note from Bono and go after both parties rather then targeting one.

I agree with you there.

Quote:
If Democrats get control of the House, not one federal dollar will be spent on stem cells. Not one. Republicans will stall it, sabotage it, veto it, whatever they need to to stick it to Fox. Thats not a Republican thing, its how politics really works. I suspect Fox knows this and that his real cause is the Demcratic Party, not stem cell research.

You're right. Republicans will continue to play politics with peoples' lives. If you honestly think Fox's real cause is the Democratic party and not pushing for federal funding to support research and potentially a cure for the disease that's killing him, then you're as wrapped up in your political ideology as Rush.

The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation.
-Bertrand Russell

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 2:21 PM

PHAEDRA

Hero-

Wow, I would just like to thank you for your inspiring words. Working 70-80 hours a week at my big evil corporate law firm has instilled a certain level of political, social, and Firefly apathy in me. Hell, I can barely follow the Mal and Inara threads I once treasured so deeply. But not I'm hopping MAD! Thank you Hero for showing me I can still feel.

I'm not going to attack your politics or opinions, those are your and they ain't gonna change. I do how ever tak issue with your presentation of the facts relating to this issue.

1. You're right stem cell research at present is not illegal, that has not prevented the present administration and it's goons from narrowing budgets and trying to make it so.

2. Your statement that "None of the candidates targeted have indicated a desire to make it so," is a best cleverly worded and at worst a willful misrepresentation. Senator James Talent has consistently supported both state and federal mesures to limit stem cell research.

3. Why the heck are you mentioning Maryland? Sen. Talent and his Dem opponent, McCaskill, are from Missouri. That's populace Fox's add is targeted at.

4. The full capabilities of stem cell research are not known yet. But, your right, let's not cure alzheimers.

Why don't we talk about what's really bothering you. Alex P. Keaton has betrayed you and it hurts. I feel your pain. I'd feel the same way if Buffy started to do pro life ads. But this is not about our feelings. And its even not about politics anymore.

This is about, yes. . . I'm gonna say it . . . basic human decency and dignity. And basic decency says that you don't mock someone for speaking their mind, by claiming they are taking advantage of the same disease which is slowly but surely killing them. Rush could have attacked the facts presented in the ad. Hell Rush could have attacked McCaskill for turning towards evil, liberal hollywood for support. Instead he chose to attack Fox's dignity and integrity. For lack of a better term, that just sux and Rush should be ashamed of his petty behavior.

Lastly, IMDB just published today that the Republicans are recruiting Jesus Christ himself (oh well Jim Cavizel, same difference right?) to speak against candidates who support stem cell research. Under the rubric you offer in your last paragraphs, is that wrong?

Actually, I would personally like to thank Rush. Between him, Bush, and Foely, we (Dems) might actually get the majority in both houses. And I think that's shiny!

Phaedra (a bad luck name and a bad speller)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 2:43 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
How about a solution to the whole mess

Lets take the researchers and all the money that could be spent on said research, move it to Canada and get something done.

After all, the end goal is more important than the politics involved...

Hey its already happening.....

Great minds and such

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2006/10/25/keller-stem-cells.html

Dr. Gordon Keller, one of the world's leading stem cell scientists, is coming back to Canada to head up a new research centre in Toronto.

Keller will be the director of the McEwen Centre for Regenerative Medicine at the University Health Network, which was launched on Wednesday.

Keller left his native Saskatchewan 16 years ago to work in the U.S. Earlier this year, New York magazine called the embryonic stem cell researcher one of the top six medical minds the city didn't want to lose.

Now we need more researchers to move, more pharma companys to send their research budgets north, and of course all the charitable foundations to send all their cash up here...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 2:49 PM

KANEMAN

"Working 70-80 hours a week at my big evil corporate law firm has instilled a certain level of political, social, and Firefly apathy in me. Hell, I can barely follow the Mal and Inara threads I once treasured so deeply. But not I'm hopping MAD! Thank you Hero for showing me I can still feel."

Get a new job if Mal and Inara threads are so important.....Well, it's true........

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 5:52 PM

SHINYTRINKET

The only good thing about Limbaugh's big mouth is that it will easily accomodate the foot that's bound to be in it for quite some time to come.

What a buffoon...

*************************************************
The 3 rules of aging:
1. Never bypass a bathroom
2. Never waste an erection
3. Never trust a fart

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 7:07 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Okay, let's review:

1. Rush Limbaugh once again proves himself the south-bound end of a north-bound horse.

2. Hero: ditto.

Big surprise.

I haven't been so shocked since I found out that Liberace was gay.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 7:39 PM

A picture is worth a thousand words (video of Limbaugh mocking Michael J Fox about a minute into the clip)...

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/10/25/olbermann-gives-us-the-visual
-to-limbaughs-attack-on-michael-j-fox/

Rush Limbaugh is the modern Republican party in a nutshell.

* edit first sentence

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 8:23 PM

MOHRSTOUTBEARD

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
A picture is worth a thousand words (video of Limbaugh mocking Michael J Fox about a minute into the clip)...

I rather liked Fox's classy response to Limbaugh profound douchebaggery.

------------------
"Remember, there's a big difference between kneeling down and bending over."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 26, 2006 1:14 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Remember Bill Frist and Terry Schiavo? I think Limbaugh has gone to the Bill Frist School of Television Diagnosis.

Yes, it's terrible how a poltical party can use a person's diseases to further a cause (you know, like over-ruling judges from Congress) ...

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

Glad you mentioned Schiavo. It was the first thing I thought of when I heard of this. The R 's had a doctor turned Legislator diagnose by videotape to fit his politics; now they've got a hack political comentator ( Where did he go to medical school? Was he in the top 3 percent at his medicad? ) offering a medical opinion.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 26, 2006 3:55 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Isn't free speech great. Rush can offer his opinion (rather inelegantly) about Fox and suffer the fallout. The Dixie Chicks can offer their opinion about Bush and suffer the fallout.

Posting to stir stuff up.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:14 AM

DREAMTROVE

Okay, an interesting debate, with some very simple answers:

Would Fox go off his meds when representing his disease? Of course. To do anything else would be dishonest. I'm sure if you take a parkinson's patient and dose them up oxycontin they will not appear to have the telltale symptoms of parkinsons. Okay, that was a jab, but it's true. It wouldn't be honest to represent a doped Fox as showing parkinson's in action.

Rush is an ass. He's a true conservatives worst nightmare. No one wants the crack whore on the bus standing up for their argument in court. Rush Limbaugh is a crack whore. I do mean this litterally. Oxycontin is in that same opiate family, and its addicts are in the same mental state, there's little to choose between the two. And there's the whore part.

Rush Limbaugh is a whore. He says whatever his economic contributors and sponsors tell him to say. I remember Rush when he was young and actually a conservative, but he hasn't been one for years. He gets up and makes the case that the people who give him the cash and the drugs and the hookers want him to make.

In this case, Rush is a whore for Merck. Merck opposes funding for stem cell research. They are alone on this Earth, unless Pfizer et al have joined in the game. There is no true christian resistance, or republican resistance, there is only one opponent of stem cell research funding, and that is Merck. They do it for one very simple reason: They are funding stem cell research. They fund it in exchange for stock options, a deal they can only get as long as there is no public funding. If there were public funding, no one would be writing stock options in exchange for funding. It's as simple as that, and there is nothing else, at all, anywhere, to this debate.

If you support big pharm's right to own this new technology which they had nothing to do with creating, then by all means, oppose stem cell research funding. That's what Rush does, because they tell him to do it, and because they pay his bills.

Also, please bear in mind, Rush Limbaugh is a serious drug addict. It's not like he made one slip, or he smoked a reefer at a party once. He's what some of us call 'a goner' - he's not coming back. Everything he does is to some extent motivated by his habits, plural. He needs drugs, and he needs cash. If the man tells him sick people gotta suffer, then that's okay. Just load him up and hand him an AK and Rush is ready to roll.

I think I give this man about as much respect as he has earned. None.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:45 AM

Quote:
"...They do it for one very simple reason: They are funding stem cell research. They fund it in exchange for stock options, a deal they can only get as long as there is no public funding. If there were public funding, no one would be writing stock options in exchange for funding. It's as simple as that, and there is nothing else, at all, anywhere, to this debate."

DT:

You are aware that there is currently federal funding available for stem cell research aren't you? Here is a link to the NIH's stem cell research opporunities.

http://stemcells.nih.gov/news/nihopps/nihopps_type.asp

There are currently millions of dollars in available federal funding for stem cell research. Granted, the funding is limited to the already existing lines of cells, but the money is there, hardly good news for Merck and Co. if what you say is true.

-----------------
"History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon."

---Napoleon Bonaparte

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:09 AM

FELLOWTRAVELER

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

Where did he go to medical school? Was he in the top 3 percent at his medicad? offering a medical opinion.

He doesn't even have his undergrad degree. He dropped outta' Southeast Missouri State

And I was gonna' let this slide, but the moral superiority was getting to me. That and it's flat wrong.

Quote:
Rush Limbaugh is a crack whore. I do mean this litterally. Oxycontin is in that same opiate family

Crack is made from Cocaine. Cocaine comes from the Coca plant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine#Crack_cocaine

OxyContin is a trade name for Oxycodone. It is an Opiate. Opiates are derived from the opium poppy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxycontin

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:51 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by MohrStoutbeard:

I rather liked Fox's classy response

I liked it too. It was classy. If you are talking about the press conferance...you might want to check the tape...his head, its not moving all that much...not like the commercials at all. I suspect his medication is working very well. Good for him.

I note for the record that he has written about going off his medication to better illistrate the affects of his illnes when he testified before Congress.

H

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 26, 2006 7:45 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I can't believe Zero is still blathering. "I suspect his medication is working very well. Good for him."

Sadly for Fox, with Parkinson's disease medication has a shorter and shorter benefit period where you can move almost normally. As the disease inevitably progresses, medication becomes less effective. Since Fox is having periods of freezing and writhing, he is already on the downhill to death. At some point, usually signalling imminent death, the medication has no benefit at all. You are either frozen because there is not enough medication in your blood stream, or writhing uncontrollably because there is too much. There is no happy middle ground. At that point, for some unknown reason, swallowing becomes uncoordinated and at the same time the sensations that would trigger coughing and the coughing reflex itself disappear. You then swallow liquid (you can't manage solids anymore) into your lungs, causing pneumonia, and a tortured death by slow suffocation lasting several days. All this happens while you are conscious and alert and feel everything.

Yeah, it's all just an act for political gain, ZERO. I get it.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 26, 2006 8:10 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Because when MJ Fox DOES die, Hero will be there like a vulture on the bedpost saying... He did that just to get sympathy for his cause! You know who else can't express political opinions according to the right wing?

The 9-11 moms (media whores, glad their husbands were dead)
Cindy Sheehan (media whore, glad her son was killed)
triple amputee Max Cleland (a faker)
any Congressional page (it was a prank they were playing)

I'm just waiting for them to smear Kevin Tillman, Pat Tillman's brother. You can bet your bottom dollar that if the Tillman story gets major traction the GOP will find SOME way to run over Kevin.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 26, 2006 8:11 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Look like I had to kill yet another deadlock victim!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:17 PM

PHOENIXSHIP

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:

Get a new job if Mal and Inara threads are so important.....Well, it's true........

Yeah, like where are our priorities! :)

I already quit my job as a congressional page so I could spend more time watching the blooper reel.

Don't forget the mission, people!

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:27 PM

DREAMTROVE

Razza,

It's not a guess. Funding-for-options programs are not secret, this is public information, and is occassionally in the news.

Sure, I know there's limited stem cell funding at the federal level, and even more at the state level. But millions of dollars is not the same thing as billions of dollars.

Come 01/07 the landscape is going to change.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:32 PM

MISBEHAVEN

Incidentally, Fox also recorded a campaign advertisement for Sen. Specter, because he's one of the few Republicans who supports federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. That sort of makes it a little difficult to say that Fox is just shilling for the Democrats.

Artists to my mind are the real architects of change, and not the political legislators who implement change after the fact.
- William S. Burroughs

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 26, 2006 7:41 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I disagree with most of Limbaugh's personal comments about Fox, but the ads are political cheap shot, false and misleading, and Fox is taking advantage of his disease to generate sympathy for a pet cause. He deserves to be challenged on the issue, if not the medium he chose.

Yep. Fox's ad should be challenged; that’s what it means to have a national debate. A point is made, which is challenged until its veracity is accepted. Unfortunately, I think many view the whole point of Fox’s ad as to stifle that debate, because anyone who does challenge Fox will be demonized as hating sick people, as evident by many of the responses to your post. Fox’s ad, setting aside the many misleading statements, is a logical fallacy in and of itself, Argumentum ad Misericordiam, appeal to pity. As if somehow, because Fox has Parkinson’s that means that stem cell research is the end all and cure all of every known illness on the earth and will even make Julian fries and Fox is just a stupid doe-eyed sick person with no agenda, and anyone who challenges his point of view is villainous monster who wants all sick people to die a horrid agonizing death.

I don’t think Fox is stupid. I’m certain that he knows exactly what he is doing and that this is a calculated move because he believes it will help to silence criticism against stem cell research. That’s his prerogative, and he certainly has a dog in this fight, but it is still important to examine the issue. While stem cell research appears promising it is still in its infancy, and there is more we don’t know about it then that we do. No approved medical treatments have been derived from research on embryonic stem cells. Any time someone makes a prediction about the effectiveness of stem cell research on medicine, it should be carefully scrutinized, not simply accepted because of sympathy towards the person making the claim. It is also not true that stem cell research is banned, as I often hear stated. Stem cell research continues to enjoy federal government funding for both adult and embryonic stem cells, with embryonic stem cells limited to existing lines. Furthermore, private research has no such restriction. So, the supposed “banning” on stem cell research is in fact nothing more then a cautious line being drawn around the human fetus.

Personally, I’m not against embryonic stem cell research. In fact, I’m one of those people who believe that it will change the face of medicine, but I also understand the concern behind the idea of harvesting human embryos to fuel the pharmaceutical industry. The idea of such a thing makes me cringe. I’m not without sympathy for Fox’s condition either and while I doubt that stem cell research in any form will ever help him, I believe that it might for future generations; however I also think that some serious consideration needs to go into how those embryonic stem cells are harvested and whether they are needed at all. There are laws and regulation that must be considered. If we can use adult stem cells then maybe we should. Little is certain at this point, I think.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 26, 2006 9:55 PM

Here's the thing, Finn. The message of the ad isn't what is being challenged. The messenger is. Here's what Michael J Fox says in the ad:

Quote:

As you might know, I care deeply about stem cell research. In Missouri you can elect Claire McCaskill, who shares my hope for cures. Unfortunately, Senator Jim Talent opposes expanding stem cell research. Senator Talent even wanted to criminalize the science that gives us a chance for hope. They say all politics is local, but that’s not always the case. What you do in Missouri matters to millions of Americans. Americans like me.

That's part of the message of the ad. And, since I don't think anyone's dissected this yet I'll take a stab at it...

“As you might know, I care deeply about stem cell research.”
Hard to argue with that.

“In Missouri you can elect Claire McCaskill, who shares my hope for cures.”
Hard to argue with this either.

“Unfortunately, Senator Jim Talent opposes expanding stem cell research.”
Whether or not this is unfortunate depends on your point of view. For someone who cares deeply about stem cell research, I can see how this is unfortunate. As far as opposing the expansion of stem cell research, Talent did vote against the Senate bill that would’ve allowed for the expansion of federally okayed stem cell research. You know, one of the few bills in the past many years that had actual real bipartisan support. The one that Bush vetoed. Yeah, that one.

“Senator Talent even wanted to criminalize the science that gives us a chance for hope.”
I have no clue what this refers to. Could be right on or totally bogus.

“They say all politics is local, but that’s not always the case.”
Hard to argue with this.

“What you do in Missouri matters to millions of Americans.”
Umm. Probably not. I don’t think I’d agree with this one

. You probably only think this if you're in Missouri (apologies to my grandma's family still living in the vicinity of Willard, MO).

“Americans like me.”
Sure. Why not.

Maybe I missed the part where Limbaugh was debating each of these points. I only saw the part where he was waving his arms mocking Michael J Fox and accusing him of fakery.

There is a way to debate, and there is a way to attempt to stifle debate. Limbaugh was attempting to stifle debate through mockery.

So, I might as well return the favor and pass along the best snark I've read so far on this (via a commenter over at Crooks and Liars):

"Are we surprised that Limbaugh automatically equates shaking with cutting off your meds?"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 26, 2006 10:21 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Michael J Fox should do another advert for Diet Pepsi, but without taking his meds for Rumsfeld's Disease (Aspartame poisoning).
www.sweetpoison.com
www.dorway.com

Wicked Sir Rumsfeld Knight of the British Empire on South Park:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8339201394200451031&hl=en

My wife had 4 heart attacks at age 32. The biggest change she made was elimination of diet sodas, which made the cardiologist sugeon angry, since he wanted to amputate her pacemaker cells: "We do it to young women all the time". She was a restaurant manager, so she had all the diet soda she could drink...

Of course, a pedophile Jewish drug addict like "Rush" would never report this disease to his sheeple, even when side effects from Oxycontin (hillbilly heroin) overdose made him lose his hearing. What do you expect for his $300-million contract?

And you don't have to genocide and cannibalize 7,000 US babies every day for stem cells, since every part of the body produces stem cells, especially umbilical cords. So abortion of 45-million US citizens, so far, is not part of the stem cell equation.

"We're flying a lot blinder than usual here. We need to get our bearings. I think we need to talk to Mr. Universe (Pirate News TV)."
-Wash, Serenity

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php
www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv
www.piratenews.org

Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, October 26, 2006 10:53 PM

CITIZEN

You know Rumsfield isn't a Knight of the British Empire right?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, October 27, 2006 5:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
“As you might know, I care deeply about stem cell research.”
Hard to argue with that.

Yep!

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
“In Missouri you can elect Claire McCaskill, who shares my hope for cures.”
Hard to argue with this either.

Yep, but the same can be said of practically every american, excluding of course the wackos at "Skippy is Sexier, Alex must Die"

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
“Unfortunately, Senator Jim Talent opposes expanding stem cell research.”
Whether or not this is unfortunate depends on your point of view. For someone who cares deeply about stem cell research, I can see how this is unfortunate. As far as opposing the expansion of stem cell research, Talent did vote against the Senate bill that would’ve allowed for the expansion of federally okayed stem cell research. You know, one of the few bills in the past many years that had actual real bipartisan support. The one that Bush vetoed. Yeah, that one.

All true, but he has also co-sponsored legislation that would expand stem cell research derived from umbilical chord blood [Senate Bill S.681]. He has also come under fire for supporting bills which were not popular with his pro-life base, see article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11410626/site/newsweek/

All and all, he sounds like a typical politician on this issue, walking a razors edge depending on the way the political wind blows, but what else can we expect from the idiots we elect these days?

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
“Senator Talent even wanted to criminalize the science that gives us a chance for hope.”
I have no clue what this refers to. Could be right on or totally bogus.

I can't find anything that supports this position either, but then I can't prove a negative so the burden lies with Fox to produce evidence to support his claim, barring that, I have to call BS on this one.

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Maybe I missed the part where Limbaugh was debating each of these points. I only saw the part where he was waving his arms mocking Michael J Fox and accusing him of fakery.

I don't want to turn into a Rush defender, but he does talk about this on his website, and how the video has been manipulated to exclude the audo, here's the link:
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_102606/content/correcting_
the_record.guest.html

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
There is a way to debate, and there is a way to attempt to stifle debate. Limbaugh was attempting to stifle debate through mockery.

I suppose if you believe he was mocking him, I'd have to agree with you, but I'm sure there are Rush fans who would tend disagree about whether or not he was mocking Fox. Personally, I don't think that was his intent, but I can see where people who don't like him would come to that conclusion.

So, I might as well return the favor and pass along the best snark I've read so far on this (via a commenter over at Crooks and Liars):

"Are we surprised that Limbaugh automatically equates shaking with cutting off your meds?"

I suppose if you believe he was mocking him, I'd have to agree with you, but I'm sure there are Rush fans who would tend to disagree about whether or not he was mocking Fox. Personally, I don't think that was his intent, but I can see where people who don't like him would come to that conclusion.

To go back to your opening statment:

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Here's the thing, Finn. The message of the ad isn't what is being challenged. The messenger is. Here's what Michael J Fox says in the ad:

I agree that Limbaugh was challenging the messenger, but so what? When a public figure injects himself into the political debate, they are fair game. Their health condition does not exclude them from criticism, nor should it. Limbaugh believes Fox's political position is wrong, so because Fox suffers from a debilitating disease means he should not question those positions or criticize the person who espoused them? Under that logic, Mel Gibson shouldn't be in any trouble for his recent comments since he is obviously suffering from alcholism, a debilitating illness in it's own right.

-----------------
"History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon."

---Napoleon Bonaparte

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, October 27, 2006 7:27 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

interview

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, October 27, 2006 8:37 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Razza

"When a public figure injects himself into the political debate, they are fair game." As is Rush. So Rush's addictions, impotence, credibility, motivations, and basic humanity are all fair game. Right? And that belongs in a political debate about the issues. Right?

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, October 27, 2006 8:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:
Under that logic, Mel Gibson shouldn't be in any trouble for his recent comments since he is obviously suffering from alcholism, a debilitating illness in it's own right.

That's f***ing bull***t, you a**hole!
How dare you equate a lack of personal control with a degenerative DISEASE that ultimatly causes death?
Let me take a stab here, you drink WAYYY too much, but it's a 'disease', so it's not you fault, right?

Sorry, I assumed Hero was the cruelest dope hereabouts. My bad.

Rabid Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, October 27, 2006 9:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Razza

"When a public figure injects himself into the political debate, they are fair game." As is Rush. So Rush's addictions, impotence, credibility, motivations, and basic humanity are all fair game. Right? And that belongs in a political debate about the issues. Right?

Absolutely!

-----------------
"History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon."

---Napoleon Bonaparte

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, October 27, 2006 9:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:
Under that logic, Mel Gibson shouldn't be in any trouble for his recent comments since he is obviously suffering from alcholism, a debilitating illness in it's own right.

That's f***ing bull***t, you a**hole!
How dare you equate a lack of personal control with a degenerative DISEASE that ultimatly causes death?
Let me take a stab here, you drink WAYYY too much, but it's a 'disease', so it's not you fault, right?

Sorry, I assumed Hero was the cruelest dope hereabouts. My bad.

Rabid Chrisisall

Why the insults and personal attacks? Why not just point out that alcoholism and parkinson's disease are illnesses of a different color and leave it at that? Or are you incapable of a civil discussion?

-----------------
"History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon."

---Napoleon Bonaparte

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, October 27, 2006 9:29 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Razza,

Largely I suspect it's because you argue out of both sides of your mouth.

And because you think it's OK to belittle someone's integrity and politics because they have Parkinson's.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, October 27, 2006 9:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:

Why the insults and personal attacks? Why not just point out that alcoholism and parkinson's disease are illnesses of a different color and leave it at that? Or are you incapable of a civil discussion?

Because everyone seems to have some political axe to grind. Nobody sticks to the substance of the issues.
Then the crap comparisons to illustrate some 'point' that aren't even consistant.
Fox didn't CHOOSE to get sick, so-called alchoholics (them that drink too much alcoholic beverages) CHOOSE to pour drinks down their throats.
They are not illness of a different colour, because one is NOT an illness!
And you think I should take any of your politics seriously?

If I need to point out such basics, civil discussion is lost for me.
(Nothing personal, just using your comments as an example of how 'discussion' is impossible when mired in such ignorance and agenda; this is in point of fact, Rush Limbaugh's whole routine.)

Wrong side of the bed Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, October 27, 2006 9:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Razza,

Largely I suspect it's because you argue out of both sides of your mouth.

And because you think it's OK to belittle someone's integrity and politics because they have Parkinson's.

Sorry? When did I belittle someone with Parkinsons's? As far as I can see, the only people belittling anyone are you and Chrisisall. I don't recall insulting or belittling anyone. I merely responded to Soupcatcher's post with relevant information and links in hopes of hearing his perspective, and possibly learning something. Unlike you, I believe it is counterproductive to insult someone when discussing a very important issue, and I have accordingly refrained from doing so.

-----------------
"History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon."

---Napoleon Bonaparte

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, October 27, 2006 10:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:

Why the insults and personal attacks? Why not just point out that alcoholism and parkinson's disease are illnesses of a different color and leave it at that? Or are you incapable of a civil discussion?

Because everyone seems to have some political axe to grind. Nobody sticks to the substance of the issues.
Then the crap comparisons to illustrate some 'point' that aren't even consistant.
Fox didn't CHOOSE to get sick, so-called alchoholics (them that drink too much alcoholic beverages) CHOOSE to pour drinks down their throats.
They are not illness of a different colour, because one is NOT an illness!
And you think I should take any of your politics seriously?

If I need to point out such basics, civil discussion is lost for me.
(Nothing personal, just using your comments as an example of how 'discussion' is impossible when mired in such ignorance and agenda; this is in point of fact, Rush Limbaugh's whole routine.)

Wrong side of the bed Chrisisall

Chris:

I appreciate your frustration with the impossibility of civil discussion. I share it! But I submit that your previous response to me was part of the problem. I disagree that alcholism is not a disease and so do many physicians and organizations like Alcoholics Anonymous. It is precisely because people refuse to see it for what it is that it continues to plague our society. We can start a whole new discussion on this topic, but here are a couple of links your might want to take a look at before dismissing it as a personal choice issue.

http://www.physiciansnews.com/commentary/298wp.html

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/FAQs/General-English/FAQ2.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_Theory_of_Alcoholism

So, I don't think it is a "crap" comparison, nor do I have a political "axe" to grind. I just like Firefly and enjoy talking to like minded people about our world views. While I usually lurk, I felt like entering the discussion for a change, but if this is the reaction I can count on in the future, I'm not sure it is worth the effort. Was that your intention?

-----------------
"History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon."

---Napoleon Bonaparte

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, October 27, 2006 10:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:

Sorry? When did I belittle someone with Parkinsons's?

"Their health condition does not exclude them from criticism, nor should it."

BUT LIMBO ATTACKED HIS DISEASE-OR LACK THEREOF-AND PERSONAL CREDIBILITY. Not stem cell research, or celebrity endorsement. To defend the indefensible (Rush) you destroy your own position (And piss off those tired of the endless bullshit).

But by your logic, Rush should be excused due to his oxycontinaholism, a degenerative disease in it's own right, correct?

Snark, thy name is Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, October 27, 2006 10:04 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

poor Adam is a die hard GOP fan

As Rush Predicted
http://forums.prospero.com/foxfirefly/messages?msg=32604.6

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, October 27, 2006 10:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JaynezTown:
As Rush Predicted
http://forums.prospero.com/foxfirefly/messages?msg=32604.6

He's still a pig, yeah. And your point is....?

Confused Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, October 27, 2006 12:18 PM

Hmmm. Been trying to post this for a while now. Let's see if the X time is the charm...

Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:
All true, but he has also co-sponsored legislation that would expand stem cell research derived from umbilical chord blood [Senate Bill S.681]. He has also come under fire for supporting bills which were not popular with his pro-life base, see article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11410626/site/newsweek/

All and all, he sounds like a typical politician on this issue, walking a razors edge depending on the way the political wind blows, but what else can we expect from the idiots we elect these days?

What was fascinating, to me, is that he appears to be going out of his way to steer clear of the entire topic of stem cell research. I went to each of the candidates web sites to see what their positions were. Claire McCaskill appears to be making this a primary issue of her campaign. Lots of stuff. Jim Talent? Not so much. In fact, I couldn’t find one mention of stem cell research on his site ( http://www.talentforsenate.com ).
* edited because I realized his site hadn't been indexed at all *
Compared to around a couple dozen on McCaskill’s.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Awww.claireonline.com+stem&
btnG=Google+Search
You’d think he’d at least hype his co-sponsorship on S.681. Nada.

Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:
I can't find anything that supports this position either, but then I can't prove a negative so the burden lies with Fox to produce evidence to support his claim, barring that, I have to call BS on this one.

Yeah. This is the one part of the ad that needs to be proven to me. Otherwise, as far as what is said, I don’t think there’s really anything controversial about the ad.

Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:
I don't want to turn into a Rush defender, but he does talk about this on his website, and how the video has been manipulated to exclude the audo, here's the link:
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_102606/content/correcting_
the_record.guest.html

…

I suppose if you believe he was mocking him, I'd have to agree with you, but I'm sure there are Rush fans who would tend to disagree about whether or not he was mocking Fox. Personally, I don't think that was his intent, but I can see where people who don't like him would come to that conclusion.

I read what Rush had to say. I actually watched the feed from the crooks and liars link that I posted above (which was from Olbermann’s show). His gesturing was mimicking Michael J Fox. There’s no other reasonable explanation for that. He posited, in his statements, that Michael J Fox was either off his medication or acting. That’s calling Fox a faker, in my book.

I’m sure you’re right that there are Rush fans who don’t think Fox was being mocked. I can only speak from personal experience. I used to listen to Rush. Spent years doing it, as a matter of fact. One of the reasons was because he would attack and make fun of those on the left. I loved that. And, based on the callers who interacted with him on the show, a lot of his listeners felt the same way. Rush’s main value to the modern American conservative movement is that he operates on the other side of the decency boundary. He attacks their opponents. He gets down and dirty. Other conservatives can appear more rational because Rush does the dirty work.

Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:
I agree that Limbaugh was challenging the messenger, but so what? When a public figure injects himself into the political debate, they are fair game. Their health condition does not exclude them from criticism, nor should it. Limbaugh believes Fox's political position is wrong, so because Fox suffers from a debilitating disease means he should not question those positions or criticize the person who espoused them? Under that logic, Mel Gibson shouldn't be in any trouble for his recent comments since he is obviously suffering from alcholism, a debilitating illness in it's own right.

But Rush didn’t question Fox’s position. He didn’t say anything, as far as I heard, about what Fox actually said. He wasn’t debating at all on the level of the spoken message. Because Rush, for all his faults, is not dumb. He realizes, as the Republican leadership realized as soon as they saw this ad, that this was a damn powerful ad precisely because of what is seen on the ad. Not what is said. That’s why it was necessary for Rush to attack what was seen. His main goal was to convince his millions of listeners that what they saw was not accurate. Because what they saw was pretty damn convincing. Here we had a young, good looking and talented man looking like shit on the basis of his disease. My first thought when I saw the ad was, “Damn. Michael J Fox sure has deteriorated.” I called over my partner telling her, “You’ve got to see this. It’s powerful.”

I personally do not interact with anyone who has Parkinson's. I've never seen the implications of that disease close hand. It was shocking. It was absolutly an appeal to emotion. And it worked. If we can help people like Michael J Fox by fully embracing embryonic stem cell research, let's do it. Twenty years down the road. Forty years down the road. Who cares? Let's make this our generations gift to the human race. Those were my thoughts after seeing the ad. And I already support expanding federal investment in embryonic stem cell research!

Rush Limbaugh knows all this. The man is good at appealing to emotion. It's what he does all day long. He didn't have to wait for the study that just viewing this ad resulted in a shift of who people would vote for. So he went right at the root of the ad. Here was all he was trying to do, "Folks. You didn't see what you just saw. It's all a lie."

We are a culture that tries to deny pain. We go to great lengths to insulate ourselves from suffering. We ship old people off to homes so we don't have to see them. We doll up our dead with make-up so they look peaceful in their caskets. We sell medication like crazy to mask symptons. We spend huge amounts of money making ourselves look younger. We are selfish and obsessed with denying that life sometimes sucks and there are diseases out there that can take and ravish a healthy adult and then kill them in some of the most horrific ways imaginable. However, we have the ability to attack these diseases. We have an opportunity to improve the quality of life of millions of Americans and billions of humans. What is standing in our way are a small fringe group who think that a few cells are more important than living breathing adults. And what this ad does is pull back the curtain and say, "Here is what a person who has Parkinson's disease looks like. Now. Do you still think a few cells are more important?"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, October 27, 2006 12:18 PM