'Tolerance' on American Universities??? by cartoon

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I read the article. It seems a little schizophrenic. She makes several valid points but also several mistakes.

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Nye: I was ill prepared to face the hostility and mocking of liberal professors often directed toward Conservative and Christian thought. I've had professors say Jesus was a homosexual, the god of Islam is the same god of Christianity, and sneer at the Bible calling it a book of myth - "that book with the talking snake and magic fruit."

I'm not sure that classifies as hostility. If the professors had called the Koran or the Upanishads a "books of myth" she prolly would NOT have seen that as being particularly "hostile" towards Islam or Hinduism... in her viewpoint, that would simply be seen as statement of FACT. She seems to be reacting- rather badly- to the fact that others simply have a different view of her religion.

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Early in my freshman year we were told to analyze an essay by Nicholas Maxwell titled "Cutting God in Half." The article purported that if God exists, he cannot be all loving and all knowing. We were told to write using our own worldview. I wrote from a Christian worldview and the professor returned my paper with 33 hand written comments on it such as, "What is good?" "What is faith?" I made an appointment with my professor and the head of the English department to discuss the paper. I asked point blank if I was going to be graded down for writing from a Christian perspective even though that is what the instructions called for. The head of the department looked me straight in the eyes and said "You cannot use the Bible in academic circles because it is regarded as a book of myth." End of discussion. That obviously presents quite a problem for Christian students who are told to write an opinion paper using their worldview.

I think there may be something else going on here besides "bias". Comments like "what is good" and what is faith" indicate to me that the student has not sufficiently explained the terms that she used to analyze the essay. Many misunderstandings and discussions are rooted in the definition of terms. It's something that we run into here all the time.

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One of my friends was in a required English class where the professor had them begin each class session with a chant. When she asked what the chant was the professor said it was a chant to Buddha. My friend refused to chant so the professor lectured the class on intolerant students that would not participate. Can you imagine what would happen if a professor opened a class demanding the students sing the Doxology?

It doesn't seem appropriate to insert religious practice into an English class. If the professor simply wanted to slwo the students down there are other forms of meditation and focusing that don't require a religious chant.

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One day in philosophy class, my professor was upset at the looming war with Iraq, and apparently frustrated that the Resolution for Peace she had attached her name to in the student newspaper, along with a number of other faculty members, wasn't going to stop the tanks from rolling, she again began Bush-whacking. After a brief rant, she became side tracked on a tangent.

Is there any particular reason to include this in on a discussion of religion?

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She started talking, to herself more than to the class, in a soft voice about creationists. "Most Christians don't believe in creationism and most large churches don't teach creationism,"

That part is true. I don't find the truth offensive.

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First off, I find it offensive when professors claim to be an authority on Christianity when they haven't even read the Bible.

How does she know that they haven't read the Bible? Maybe they read it, but intepret it differently.

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I remember when I was in grad studies, during Easter, a certain grad student announced aloud that he was going to have a “crucifixion party”. Others laughed and he was very proud of himself. Obscene comments about Christianity were always coming out of his mouth in the university setting. He was vehemently anti-religious and anti-American. Many students and professors heard his comments and either laughed or did nothing about it. Yet, not surprisingly of course, Islam and Muhammad were never the subject of this individual’s ridicule. And everyone knows that if they had been (which they never would) he would have suffered serious consequences, not just from Muslims, but from the university administration.

The administration should be holding everyone to the same standard.

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In terms of the professors who engage in this behavior are, first and foremost, chicken. They know that Christians are a safe target.

Prolly true. Although I'm not sure it's a religious difference as much as a cultural one.

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For example, all students at Butler were required to take a course on Islam. We were required to purchase the Koran and handle it with respect. If we were carrying a stack of books the Koran had to be on top. One day, my professor even had us act out the five pillars of Islam in class. If you ask me, that's going too far.

I would imagine that the course would be very interesting. But if Islam is the only required religious course, that's not right.

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The tolerance touted on campus is actually a sort of neo-fascism. The only ideas truly tolerated are the ideas espoused and embraced by liberals. New liberals (most of the time) only tolerate those who think like them. They also claim Christians are intolerant

which is followed shortly by

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If I'm going to take the time to believe in something, have a conviction, live it out, and stand up for what I believe in, what good is it if I don't even believe that my beliefs are true? And if my beliefs are true, why would I even consider a conflicting belief to be on the same level? I wouldn't! What good is a conviction if you don't believe it to your core and reject anything that is in opposition to it? Yet, this is what the new tolerance is about.

Sounds like intolerance to me!

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Focus on principles, not people. Isolate the principle and follow it to its logical end.

I hope she sticks with that, and that others do too.

I got several points from this:

She's all twisted because many people do not share her beliefs. IMHO- tough nuts.

She feels that other religions are promoted, tolerated, or protected more than Xtianity. I think that ALL religions should come in for the same treatment.

She doesn't like "tolerance". I agree. I think that "tolerance" on important ethical topics can be very dangerous. I believe in reasoned discussion. But once you engage in reasoned discusison you can't get twisted because someone starts out with a different viewpoint or asks you to define your terms.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Wednesday, November 22, 2006 5:07 PM

FREMDFIRMA

She pegs my bullshit detector to the needle.

Colleges are tolerant of everything but one thing.
Intolerance.

Especially that biblethumping, snotty-pushy "my way is the only right way" bullshit.

And I've made my feelings quite, abundantly clear on the pervasive and evil force that is the Christian Belief System as practiced, and the laughable concept that the slimy, evil gits are in any way "persecuted" whatsoever.

Their idea of being "persecuted" is people not falling to their knees and kissing their ass while professing the same beliefs, puh-lease.

They wanna whine about persecution cause not everyone agrees with them ? go look at the muslims who we're bombing into fleshy red piles of goop because our leaders think it's ok to persecute them cause they're not Christian.

Go read up on the fucking Crusades, why don't you ?

In my opinion they should be glad to be tolerated as they are, cause I for one, would like to see the evil bastards tied to a stake and screaming while the flames licked every closer, and fault me for it if you will, I would damned well ENJOY it.

And Antimason, don't bother shovelling any of that crap about how they're not Christians at me, they define what the hellspawned belief system in this day and age is - whether you like it or not, whether *I* like it or not, that's how it is.

And I hate em, it's a simple as they, for they are hateful - dress it up anyway you like, they're pushy, hateful, intolerant people who think every non-Christian belongs in hell, who would gleefully bring back the inquisition, and who's actions have stonewalled anything resembling enlightenment and civilization repeatedly for centuries.

In short, she should be glad for the Tolerance (of her and her crap!) that she claims not to exist, cause some folk would have been a LOT less tolerant about it - and I am one of em.

-Frem

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Wednesday, November 22, 2006 6:06 PM

ROCKETJOCK

I'll admit, I've always found it amusing how American Christians tend to find themselves discriminated against by the law's refusal to grant them special status. "How dare they say we can't force our form of prayer into public schools? How intolerant!" "They refuse to teach our particular creation myth as the one revealed truth! What bigotry!"

And then they offer faux compromises. "Okay, if you don't want to join in the prayer, you can just stand silently out in the hallway, while the 98% of the student body who understand WHO THE ONE TRUE GOD IS pray for your heathen souls. And may God forgive us for our weakness."

The fact is, Christianity is the 500-pound gorilla of American sprituality, and so it has historically gotten its own way, from such things as Closed-On-Sunday blue laws and the 13-year disaster of prohibition to the current debates on so-called "scientific creationism".

My main problem with all of this is, having actually read the New Testament, and paying attention to the words in the red letters, I've come to the conclusion that most people who claim to be Christian have no idea of what the founder of their religion actually said or stood for. They have mistaken the envelope for the message, and have turned the organizational power structure of their own churches into a false God which they worship ahead of the Nazarine.

Despite this, I have met plenty of good, tolerant Christians in my life, people who actually try to live in the spirit of Christ. They make good neighbors, exactly the sort of people a Lawful Pagan like myself strives to emulate.

Heck, some of them even go to church...

"Religion is far too important a subject to take seriously." -- Rafael DeOro

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Wednesday, November 22, 2006 6:15 PM

Students at Butler should not be required to take courses on Islam, purchase the Qur’an, and much less follow religious rituals for the handling the Qur’an, unless Butler is a religious school. My guess is that Butler does not hold itself out to be a religious school, and therefore shouldn’t be requiring students to follow a religious curriculum. If such activity is required of students of Butler, given the decidedly anti-religious tones of most Academics, it would not be unfitting to view it with suspicion.

Evidently, the “biblethumping(sic), snotty-pushy ‘my way is the only right way’ bullshit” must be purely a Christian trait, because no one would push the Qur’an on anyone, and if someone protests to having the Qur’an pushed on them (as a requirement to graduate) they must be “snotty-pushy” “biblethumping(sic)” Christians. There is so much that is messed up about that. I sympathize strongly with Miss Nye, because she has probably had to endure a lot of ignorant people making snotty comments about her, simply because she holds a Christian opinion and doesn’t want to be indoctrinated in the Islamic religion anymore then those ignorant people want to endure someone’s “biblethumping(sic).” Now you extrapolate those ignorant people to positions of power within BU and you have an environment that might very well be called “neo-fascist,” but Miss Nye’s feelings are the last thing those ignorant people care about.

Christianity may be the 500-lb gorilla in the cage, but unlike its cousin the 500-lb orangutan, it doesn’t kill you if you disagree with it. Whatever majority Christians may hold in this country means little to a student on a university where Christianity is considered “quaint” and Islam is considered required study, if that student expects to graduate.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, November 22, 2006 6:57 PM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm not sure that classifies as hostility. If the professors had called the Koran or the Upanishads a "books of myth" she prolly would NOT have seen that as being particularly "hostile" towards Islam or Hinduism...

True. She may not have found it to be hostile, but then she's not Muslim or Hindu, and I'm guessing that Muslim's and Hindu's may find such allegations against their texts as "hostile".

Thing is -- as she points out (and not just her, I've heard this from a multitude of sources over the past 18 years -- at least) that such things aren't being said by professors (at least not to the same degree) as they are being said against Christianity with relative impunity.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I think there may be something else going on here besides "bias". Comments like "what is good" and what is faith" indicate to me that the student has not sufficiently explained the terms that she used to analyze the essay. Many misunderstandings and discussions are rooted in the definition of terms. It's something that we run into here all the time.

True, if that's what she's complaining about in that paragraph of her interview. However, I personally didn't read it that way -- I didn't see her as complaining about those specific statements as much as about not being permitted to use the Bible as "source" material for her definitions. You could be right, though. Perhaps, I just read it differently. We'd have to ask her to clarify.

BTW, although you and I avidly disagree on many of these issues, I have to state once again that I appreciate you taking the time to read opposing views, then commenting on them civilly. Others who believe as you do (and disagree with those who believe as I do), would go a lot further in such discussions if they responded with the decency and civility which you have responded with. Thanks again.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It doesn't seem appropriate to insert religious practice into an English class. If the professor simply wanted to slwo the students down there are other forms of meditation and focusing that don't require a religious chant.

I agree. However, I definitely agree with her that there is a slant against Christianity in such exercises, while virtually anything else goes.

I personally know of specific instances where grade school students (in my local area) were allowed to put on productions (which I attended) where they recounted the details of native American "religion", including "religious" chants. But these same students are prohibited for doing anything even remotely Christian.

In my view, the pendulum has definitely swung way too far to the opposite extreme. If one "belief" is to be allowed (tolerated), all should be allowed (tolerated). If one is to be restricted, all should be restricted. It isn't right to single out a certain "belief system" as inappropriate, while allowing virtually every other "belief system", which is what I found to be the gist of her whole argument.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Is there any particular reason to include this in on a discussion of religion?

I don't know what her point was about that, either.

Perhaps she would allow you a follow-up interview from the left -- to clarify some points for us all -- in an effort towards fairness.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Quote:
She started talking, to herself more than to the class, in a soft voice about creationists. "Most Christians don't believe in creationism and most large churches don't teach creationism,"
That part is true. I don't find the truth offensive.

Well, I don't know if it's true or not. I haven't seen any scientific polling on the subject. I only know that in my own circle of believers (which is quite extensive), it's not true. But, I also know that my own circle of believers isn't a true representation of all who profess belief in Christianity throughout the whole world.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
How does she know that they haven't read the Bible? Maybe they read it, but intepret it differently.

Well, she may or may not know. The professors she's referring to may have openly admitted having not read it, or having only precursorily read it. I personally know a lot of people with solid, entrenched opinions on the Bible who can't find a specific book in the Bible, much less talk about it with any degree of intelligence.

Personally, there's not a whole lot I can discuss with any degree of knowledge and confidence -- but the Bible (along with history and politics) is/are subjects which I have studied intensely for many decades. And I find that the opinions of most people who criticize it (the Bible), by the very nature of their arguments, have made it quite obvious to me, that they've never really read it, much less studied it with any intensity.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
The administration should be holding everyone to the same standard.

I fully agree. Permit free expression of all "beliefs" or none.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Prolly true. Although I'm not sure it's a religious difference as much as a cultural one.

Yes. And that's what I dislike most about political correctness. It's selective -- and hypocritical. Everyone knows who you can and who you cannot poke fun at. Essentially -- white, male, heterosexual, Christians are legitimate targets, and virtually everyone else is off limits.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I would imagine that the course would be very interesting. But if Islam is the only required religious course, that's not right.

Again, I'm in total agreement (see above).

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Quote:
The tolerance touted on campus is actually a sort of neo-fascism. The only ideas truly tolerated are the ideas espoused and embraced by liberals. New liberals (most of the time) only tolerate those who think like them. They also claim Christians are intolerant
which is followed shortly by
Quote:
If I'm going to take the time to believe in something, have a conviction, live it out, and stand up for what I believe in, what good is it if I don't even believe that my beliefs are true? And if my beliefs are true, why would I even consider a conflicting belief to be on the same level? I wouldn't! What good is a conviction if you don't believe it to your core and reject anything that is in opposition to it? Yet, this is what the new tolerance is about.
Sounds like intolerance to me!

Yes, but that's the whole point of her argument, and the point with which I most agree.

Read what she said slowly and carefully. I'm sure you already did

-- but apply it to something for which you have strong convictions.

I don't know, pick something about which you feel very strongly -- anything at all. Then imagine someone who has no respect for that belief, who espouses something which totally contradicts that belief. Without very strong evidence to the contrary (and I'm assuming you needed some very strong evidence to get you to think that way in the first place), are you going be "tolerant" and believe "your view is just as valid as mine", or are you going to give preference to your own strong convictions to the contrary?

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
She's all twisted because many people do not share her beliefs. IMHO- tough nuts.

I didn't get that at all. I'm getting that she's saying what you and I agreed on throughout this thread. That professors/administrators shouldn't allow one kind of "religious" discussion/practice in their class (or on their universities) while prohibiting another. There's blatant hypocrisy in that, to which you've seemed to agree repeatedly.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
She feels that other religions are promoted, tolerated, or protected more than Xtianity. I think that ALL religions should come in for the same treatment.

I agree. Again.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
She doesn't like "tolerance". I agree. I think that "tolerance" on important ethical topics can be very dangerous. I believe in reasoned discussion. But once you engage in reasoned discusison you can't get twisted because someone starts out with a different viewpoint or asks you to define your terms.

I agree. Yet again.

Something is definitely amiss here. I think you and I have agreed on this thread far more often than not. And in most cases where we haven't agreed, it is likely only as the result of an ambiguous statement (on her part) which we have each read differently.

Certainly this doesn't bode well for the state of the world when we agree so often.

I guess we'll just have to find another subject on which we can count off ten paces and fire.

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Wednesday, November 22, 2006 7:33 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Christianity may be the 500-lb gorilla in the cage, but unlike its cousin the 500-lb orangutan, it doesn’t kill you if you disagree with it.

I suggest you look up the following phrases and organizations: "The Burning Times" "Spanish Inquisition" "Christian Identity Movement" "Westboro Baptist Church".

Historically Christians -- or those professing to be Christians -- have been more than happy to spill blood in the name of the Prince of Peace. That fundamentalist Islamics have chosen to grab that particular baton and run with it at this point in history does not wash the blood from Christian hands.

But you are entirely right that the school in question shouldn't have been teaching religion qua religion. Opening a class with a Buddist chant was in-conceived, at best--if the idea was to get the students in a receptive mind, a simple "Om" chant would have been just as effective.

As to the course on the Koran and Islam, if the course was a means of indoctrinating students in Islam with an eye to conversion, of course it was wrong. On the other hand, if the idea was to have the students role-play in order to better understand the Islamic mind-set, that's a different matter. Teaching how an Islamic would treat and respect the Koran would be a part of that--If I was teaching a course on Christianity, I'd certainly require the students to avoid casually marking up or otherwise disrespecting the Bible.

(Side note: My personal copy of the Koran was a gift from a co-worker of my wife, who had to remove roughly an ounce of sticky-notes from it. He liked his copies annotated, but proper respect required him to refrain from marking them directly. When, thanking him, I cautioned him not to expect me to convert, he shrugged. "If I wanted to live in a country where everyone thinks alike, I would have stayed in Iran.")

By the way--I love the Cicero quote. It's exactly the reason I thank all the Gods for the first amendment.

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -- Susan B. Anthony

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Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:08 PM

FREERADICAL42

The problem that I have with this girl's worldview is that she regrettably does not appear to have thought about the internal consistency of her beliefs.

The questions that her professor graded her with, and her reaction to them, indicates to me that she takes what Christianity has taught her as axiomatic instead of thinking about belief in G-d and then trying to generalise about it from there.

This is an inherently anti-intellectual attitude, and being a religious intellectual, is something I really don't like. The viewpoints she seems to be putting forward here are that you can't be religious and think critically about your religion, that you can't be Christian and think Muslims have a valid religion, and that you can't be American without being Christian (such as when she equates ridicule of Christianity with ridicule of America).

All of these viewpoints are incredibly intolerant and so they leave me wishing that she had been taught to assess her own beliefs for internal consistency. Were she properly schooled in analytic forms of logic, she would discover what is most important; that you can be religious and co-exist with other people. If she wants to be tolerated, she should not be so judging of other people's worldviews.

At my institution, I have had to deal with constant attacks from theists and atheists alike, since I ascribe to an uncommon theology. There are those who want me to convert to their religion, and those who want me to forget about religion and join them in amoralistic pursuits. They both have a point, but when I respond to them with cogent, internally consistent arguments, they see my point and stop arguing. Of course I can never prove or disprove what they are saying; the theist question is not answerable by scientific means. But I can point out to them that they can't convince me and I can't convince them because no one has evidence. This opens the door to discussions of theology with the understanding that no one is trying to change anyone else's beliefs, but rather to test their consistency. These kinds of discussions cause everyone to gain, really.

Basically, I prefer to encourage thinking about religion and tolerance of other viewpoints. This girl doesn't seem to have the capacity for this, and I think it's that lack of understanding that causes fighting between areligious and religious people.

"See, morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with, long as she does it quiet-like."

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 12:33 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Were she properly schooled in analytic forms of logic, she would discover what is most important; that you can be religious and co-exist with other people. If she wants to be tolerated, she should not be so judging of other people's worldviews.

Well said, the whole post in fact nails the salient point, and in a far more civil manner than I have any intent to be on the subject.

The best cure for intolerance is a flamethrower - because most of the people who practice it, choose to do so, you can blame upbringing all you want, at some point reality intervenes and they simply turn their back on it, and that's a choice.

How many of you reasonable folk come from somewhat racist families, and *chose* not to be racist because you saw it was utterly ridiculous, especially in light of the internet ?
(double especially OVER the internet, but that's a whole nother can o worms, that.)

So, they choose to be intolerant pushy jackasses, and I choose not to be at all civil about it, why should I - try being tolerant or patient with some of them "True Believers" and see what it gets you.

I make it clear right off that the best thing they can do is get thier little butts moving AWAY from me, as far as possible, and speedily, and in all honesty, a quick, profane explosion of verbal flameage, followed by their speedy (and usually permanent) retreat is a lot better than trying to tolerate the intolerant.

They wanna discuss theology, fine, they wanna discuss spiritualism or how religion affects social order and policy, yadda yadda, sure, fine, dandy.. shiny even...

But you try it, pick out ten random Christians and just try it, and then explain to me why I should even bother giving them the chance to open their hate spewing mouths ?

Oh, and FYI - I have zero mercy for *any* beliefs zealots, up to and specifically including Pagan ones, cause I'll send those Dianic stormtrooper bitches scurrying every bit as fast as thumpers, jihadis, and the occasional JW who has the misfortune to defile my porch (tho not for long!) with their presence.

-Frem

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 3:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
I suggest you look up the following phrases and organizations: "The Burning Times" "Spanish Inquisition" "Christian Identity Movement" "Westboro Baptist Church".

So what? This is how you intend to define Christianity? You’re proving this woman’s point, the bigotry against Christians. If this is the game you want to play, I suggest you look up “Islamic Jihad,” “The Taliban,” “Hezbollah,” “Al Qaeda,” “Hamas,” and numerous other Islamic organizations that use murder and terror to impose their Islamic views, not 500 years ago, but today. No major Christian organization practices the kind of “religion” practiced by these Islamic groups today, and for you to suggest that this is the bases that we should use to assess this young woman’s situation, essentially argues her point.

So if it is understanding that we want, perhaps we need to start a little closer to home. If someone can’t differentiate Christianity today from the Spanish Inquisition, then logically how do we expect them to differentiate Islam today from the Islamic Jihad? And understanding that, I think will help you understand Miss Nye’s point, and mine.

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
By the way--I love the Cicero quote. It's exactly the reason I thank all the Gods for the first amendment.

Thanks. Cicero is one of my favorite authors. Two thousand years ago he was predicting many of the same philosophical issues we deal with today in politics and religion. And for his troubles he had his throat cut. But that’s Roman politics.

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 4:12 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Colleges are tolerant of everything but one thing.
Intolerance.

Especially that biblethumping, snotty-pushy "my way is the only right way" bullshit.

Then colleges aren't tolerant of everything. It goes to how one defines 'intolerance'.

And as annoying as those biblethumping, snotty-pushy "my way is the only right way" types are, at least they're not cutting the throats of those who don't convert to their way of thinking.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:37 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

And as annoying as those biblethumping, snotty-pushy "my way is the only right way" types are, at least they're not cutting the throats of those who don't convert to their way of thinking.

Not yet maybe, but give them time.
Put ten "Christians" from different "Denominations" in a room together and see what happens. Maybe not throat-cutting but not "Love thy neihbour" either.

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
and if someone protests to having the Qur’an pushed on them (as a requirement to graduate)

I'm too lazy to do the work, which would mean reading the lady's articles, then identifying the school, and searching its website, but I'll bet my share of the profits from the Train Job that reading the Quran is not officially, specifically required in the catalog of the school as a requirement to graduate.

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 8:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
I suggest you look up the following phrases and organizations: "The Burning Times" "Spanish Inquisition" "Christian Identity Movement" "Westboro Baptist Church".
So what? This is how you intend to define Christianity?

YOU CHEATED!!!!

You deliberately did not quote the sentence before in his post where he quoted someone ( you?) as saying that Christians did not kill those who disagreed with their beliefs. Those references are certainlty correct as arguments against that position. Christians DID DO those things. That Muslims are still doing them cuts no ice. Nobody said the Muslims weren't...

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 8:38 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
I'm too lazy to do the work, which would mean reading the lady's articles, then identifying the school, and searching its website, but I'll bet my share of the profits from the Train Job that reading the Quran is not officially, specifically required in the catalog of the school as a requirement to graduate.

You might find something like this in a course catalogue: Topics in Comparative Religion 201. In this course we will make an in depth survey of major modern non-Christian religions with special emphasis on Islam and Islamic traditions...

Then li'l Miss Acti-Christian takes the course as her personal Child's Crusade against the heathen and surprise, surprise it doesn't exactly go well for her. Hm.

Hey Cartoon, American Universities are very effed up places. Very hypocritical, very intolerant of a lot of things, but I don't think that gives your girl a blank check to promote her narrow-minded agenda.

Quote:
In the words of Miss Nye:
G. K. Chesterton once said "Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions."

I agree.

Today's "tolerance" makes the assumption that we all hold different beliefs but those different beliefs are all equal. That appalls me. If I'm going to take the time to believe in something, have a conviction, live it out, and stand up for what I believe in, what good is it if I don't even believe that my beliefs are true? And if my beliefs are true, why would I even consider a conflicting belief to be on the same level? I wouldn't! What good is a conviction if you don't believe it to your core and reject anything that is in opposition to it? Yet, this is what the new tolerance is about. A man without convictions would have an easier time saying that all beliefs are equal

She sees tolerance as a kind of weakness; the stance of hypocrites. She feels it would be hypocritical for her not to push her ideas on everyone else. How is that anything but antisocial?

I know she's practically a teenager and we can't expect her to understand the importance of humility and compassion, but what about you? Do you find her arrogance attractive? Within acceptable limits? Do you think tolerance has any place in society?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:27 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I looked up Butler U. It requires a course on the Koran to graduate with a major in Religion
-------------------------
Requirements for the Religion Major

* RL 101 Religions of the World
* RL 202 The Bible
* RL 347 History of Christianity
* RL 354 Islam
* RL 381 Topics in Theory and Method
* Two Courses in Asian Religions
* Twelve additional hours in Religion are required for a total of 33 hours. Courses on religion and related topics in other disciplines may be counted toward the Religion major with the permission of the department head.

www.butler.edu/philrel/?pg=971#religion_major
---------------------------------

Given the coursework that Nye talks about (the Bible, philosopy, Islam etc) I assumed that she majored in religion. So just out of curiosity, I looked at the bona fides of the religious studies professors and their areas of study:

Chad Bauman: Princeton Theological Seminary,Ph.D, Princeton Theological Seminary
Hinduism, Buddhism, Indian Christianity

James F. McGrath: Diploma in Religious Studies, Cambridge University; B.D., University of London; Ph.D., University of Durham
Biblical Studies, Religion and Science

Paul R. Valliere: B.A., Williams College; M.A., Columbia University/Union Theological Seminary; Ph.D., Columbia University.
Russian Orthodoxy, History of Christianity, Modern Religious Thought

Rabbi Arnold Bienstock: B.A., Columbia University; M.A., Jewish Theological Seminary; Rabbinical degree

Mary Ann Fadae: Islamic Studies

Rabbi Sandy Eisenberg Sasso: B.A., Temple University; M.A., Temple University; Rabbinical degree, Reconstructionist Rabbinical College

These are the people that Nye claims have never" read the Bible?? Most of Nye's negative reaction seems to be that she has never come across her religion as an object of study as opposed to an object of belief.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 10:39 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn Mac Cuhmal:
Christianity may be the 500-lb gorilla in the cage, but unlike its cousin the 500-lb orangutan, it doesn’t kill you if you disagree with it. Whatever majority Christians may hold in this country means little to a student on a university where Christianity is considered “quaint” and Islam is considered required study, if that student expects to graduate.

Except of course the 500lb Gorilla does kill you if you disagree with it.

Quote:
No major Christian organization practices the kind of “religion” practiced by these Islamic groups today

What like the Lords Resistance Army. Maybe Killing, Raping and selling into slavery over two thousand children a year for nearly the last twenty years is small time then?

This is typical of you Finn, you make a statement, it's shown to be wrong, you move the goal posts and proclaim "See I was right all along".

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
Others who believe as you do (and disagree with those who believe as I do), would go a lot further in such discussions if they responded with the decency and civility which you have responded with. Thanks again.

And you'd find that would happen a lot more often if you actually let them and you weren't such a snippy little shit all the time, oh well

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier
I know she's practically a teenager and we can't expect her to understand the importance of humility and compassion, but what about you? Do you find her arrogance attractive? Within acceptable limits? Do you think tolerance has any place in society?

Cartoon is a religious fanatic

Religious schools rarely let non-religious students (or those of a different religion) in, and if they do they're often ostracised. I guess Miss Nye can count herself very very fortunate she wasn't a non-Christian in a Christian education establishment, if she were her experiences here would have seemed paradise.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:42 AM

ROCKETJOCK

Hello All,
This is Rocketjock's Daughter Angel. I just happened to be reading over daddy dears shoulder while he was on this thread and couldn't help but write a response of my own.
First of all let me say I am a practicing Pagan/Witchy Women,(

) and before any one starts claiming intolerance towards there religion try and be a Pagan and then we can talk.
Secondly when i was in seventh grade, some six odd years ago, we learned about Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. I entirely enjoyed this part of my history curriculum. We learned some of the practices of each of these religions. There many children of different religions in my class and we were all very TOLERANT of each other. You cant claim that some one else is being intolerant when you are not TOLERANT enough to even learn about another religion and lifestyle.
Now that thats out of the way, here is the real reason i came on ...
Someone earlier mentioned how Christians do not kill people who disagree with there beliefs. I believe that someone needs to read some more history books, or some more current events. There are some Christian groups who have bombed abortion clinics because they don't believe that women should have abortions! There are other christians who have killed Gays and Blacks because they did not believe the same way of Christians. No one is saying that some Muslims are not killing people for there own beliefs, but Muslims killing people now does not mean that Christians and other religions have are not killing people now and have not killed in the past. one does not erase the other!

--------------------------------------------------
"More people have died in the name of the Lord, then any natural disaster, disease, or gang war," -->Nelly

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I looked up Butler U. It requires a course on the Koran to graduate with a major in Religion

Thanx for doing the work I was too lazy to do.
Of course, If one is majoring in religion, one should study the Koran. Entirely appropriate.
If she was majoring in religion, then her argument is worthless. I thought she was studying something unrelated, or it was a General Ed requirement, which is what she implied.

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
I'm too lazy to do the work, which would mean reading the lady's articles, then identifying the school, and searching its website, but I'll bet my share of the profits from the Train Job that reading the Quran is not officially, specifically required in the catalog of the school as a requirement to graduate.
You might find something like this in a course catalogue: Topics in Comparative Religion 201. In this course we will make an in depth survey of major modern non-Christian religions with special emphasis on Islam and Islamic traditions...

Then li'l Miss Acti-Christian takes the course as her personal Child's Crusade against the heathen and surprise, surprise it doesn't exactly go well for her. Hm.

That's about how I figure it ,too.

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
You deliberately did not quote the sentence before in his post where he quoted someone ( you?) as saying that Christians did not kill those who disagreed with their beliefs. Those references are certainlty correct as arguments against that position. Christians DID DO those things. That Muslims are still doing them cuts no ice. Nobody said the Muslims weren't...

I always trim the quotes for brevity, assuming that if someone would like to see the complete post that I’m responding to they can simply scroll up, and if you do scroll up you’ll see quite clearly that, in fact, I did not say that Christians didn’t do those things, I said they don’t, and generally that is true. Christian terrorist organizations are not common; the majority of them are in Northern Ireland and those that do exist are generally very isolated, and largely more nationalist then Christian. Muslim terrorist organizations are common, and very Islamic, and several of them operate well a field of their base. So I didn’t cheat. I may have ranted, but I didn’t cheat.

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
I'm too lazy to do the work, which would mean reading the lady's articles, then identifying the school, and searching its website, but I'll bet my share of the profits from the Train Job that reading the Quran is not officially, specifically required in the catalog of the school as a requirement to graduate.

So am I. But according to Sigmyn, a course on Islam is only required if you are seeking a degree in religion, which doesn’t seem unreasonable to me.

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
Someone earlier mentioned how Christians do not kill people who disagree with there beliefs. I believe that someone needs to read some more history books, or some more current events. There are some Christian groups who have bombed abortion clinics because they don't believe that women should have abortions! There are other christians who have killed Gays and Blacks because they did not believe the same way of Christians. No one is saying that some Muslims are not killing people for there own beliefs, but Muslims killing people now does not mean that Christians and other religions have are not killing people now and have not killed in the past. one does not erase the other!

That’s true, and I clearly should have been more precise in my language, but I was ranting, and ranting is often imprecise. But are you prepared to say that the kind of thing you mentioned above is equal to Al Qaeda or Hezbollah or any large armed paramilitary terrorist organization?

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 3:05 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

They have Ann Coulter as a columnist for this website. I rest my case.

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote - Vote Firefly!

(by xRiverTamx / Kelai)

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 3:26 PM

CARTOON

At the very top of the page with Miss Nye's interview, it says she graduated as a "Physician's Assistant". That wouldn't seem like a religion major to me.

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 5:52 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Christians don't kill folk ?

Go look at Iraq, and other numerous examples, but the primary one, that sets me into such a rage at them ?

Tempest Smith.

I am including some links here specifically for RJ's daughter to use in order to show other folk the true ugly face of intolerance and what it's end result usually is.

What happened
http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/wiccasadbuttrue.html

And current foundation for prevention.
http://tempestsmithfoundation.org/

Zealotry of any stripe leads to intolerance, which leads to violence, which leads to death - this is a simple, linear pattern oft repeated in history, and the entirety of the reason to crush zealotry of this sort in it's tracks.

Oh, and I can attest to Citizen's comment about being sent to a specific theologys' school when you are not OF that theology, it's not exactly pleasant nor does it lead to anything good.

"it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." -Thomas Jefferson

Long as someone isn't shovin it down your throat, why care what they BELIEVE, what really matters, in the end all that matters, is what they DO.

Religion never excuses Jackassery.

-Frem

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:27 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Not yet maybe, but give them time.
Put ten "Christians" from different "Denominations" in a room together and see what happens. Maybe not throat-cutting but not "Love thy neihbour" either.

Well, we have throat cutting going on right now, and not just in Iraq, but all throught out the Muslim world. I find it curious that there are those who rail and rant , frothing at the mouth against Christianity, yet turn a blind eye toward what is happening with radical Islam. Christianity has gone through a reformation, while Islam is still stuck in the 1st millennium. Take your cracks at the bible thumpers, but I think most who do so are stomping on a camp fire while a forest fire rages on at their back.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:20 PM

ANTIMASON

ive made this point before, but i think its relevant if we're gonna make assumptions about christianity... what are we talking about when we say christian? if we go by the bible then that doesnt include moderate believers who arent practicing, since Paul says in Romans

Quote:
"now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag abour your relationship to God; if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, and instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, becase you have in the law the the embodiment of knowledge and truth- you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? you who preach against stealing, do you steal? you who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? you who abhor idols, do you rob temples? you who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? as it is written: "Gods name is blasphemed among the gentiles because of you"

Quote:
"a man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. no, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. such a mans praise is not from men, but from God"

every christian should understand that the bible makes the distinction that a believer in Jesus is someone who does the WILL of God, which implies following his commands, the most important of which, according to Jesus himself is

Quote:
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind. this is the first greatest command. second is 'love your neighbor as yourself. there is no commandment greater than these"

i just think that should be kept in mind by those of you scrutinizing us from the outside.

we believe that man has a fallen nature that is susceptable to sin, and the bible also explains why man has given his heart into the world and the desires of the flesh, which are material and earthly. Jesus says not to covet or love the world(and its possessions) because this age belongs to Satan(also the reason for the all-seeing eye), and finishes my point when he says

Quote:
"if you were Abrahams children, then you would do the things Abraham did. as it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told the the truth that i heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. you are doing the things your own father does. if God were your Father, you would love me, for i came from God and now am here. i have not come on my own; but he sent me. why is my language not clear to you? because you are unable to hear what i say. you belong to your father the devil, and you want to carry out your fathers desire. he was a murderer from the beginning, not holding ot the truth, for there is no truth in him."

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:47 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
At the very top of the page with Miss Nye's interview, it says she graduated as a "Physician's Assistant". That wouldn't seem like a religion major to me.

Then what was she doing in the courses for Religious Majors? Perhaps poking her nose in where it didn't belong.

How very Christian of her, I'm sure YOU approve.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 5:25 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Most of Nye's negative reaction seems to be that she has never come across her religion as an object of study as opposed to an object of belief.

Bravo, Sig. I think you've hit the nail on the head.

Quote:
If they would take the time to read the Bible they would see that it is pretty obvious that Allah of Islam is not the same God of Christianity. The message of Christianity is that mankind is sinful and God is holy, and this holy God sent his Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for our sins so that we could be reconciled to God and have eternal life in Heaven. That profound message is nowhere to be found in the Koran. And if the god of Islam were the same god of Christianity, wouldn't they be telling the same story?

This quotation illustrates the point. She has one Truth in her mind, and everyone who disagrees with or questions her Truth is hostile or ignorant.
She cannot suspend her assumption that her interpretation of the Bible is Absolutely True in order to examine a different account of the same God. She cannot fathom the possibility that two different witnesses could tell different stories about the same guy. One witness is absolutely right, and therefore the other witness must not have seen the same guy. Moreover, this proves to her that those with different interpretations must not have read the Bible.

Just because this young lady's reasoning is fallacious and faulty on so many levels does not mean there is no hypocrisy on American campuses. People wishing to demonstrate academic intolerance of Christianity need to just make better arguments.

She also alleges:

Quote:
For example, all students at Butler were required to take a course on Islam.

I found this at the Butler U. website:

Quote:
All Butler students must complete both semesters of Change and Tradition (ID 201 and ID 202) as a requirement for graduation. http://www.butler.edu/cnt/course_information.htm

Students with foreign study experience can be exempt from this requirement.

What is C&T (ID 201 and ID 202)? The syllabus says:

Quote:
As an introduction to the study of historical world cultures, Change and Tradition (C&T) has been a centerpiece of the Butler curriculum since 1983. Individual sections of C&T are taught by faculty from colleges and departments throughout the university. The one thing that binds us all together is a common interest in interdisciplinary study of global cultures.

http://www.butler.edu/cnt/Gen%20Syl%20ID202-06.doc

Now I can see how C&T classes all require some study of Islam, as it is one of the major global cultures in the world. I can see how Christianity may be given less class time than Islam. The object of the class is to broaden student horizons and most American students are already very familiar with Christianity. It seems to me that if she takes offense at respectfully studying versions of truth other than her own, she should have attended a private Christian college where she would be shielded from such offenses.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

----------
It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this.
--Bertrand Russell

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Friday, November 24, 2006 6:19 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Here's the test.

How would you feel about a university instructor who said, in class, that the Koran was "that book about crazy Mohammud talking with 'god' in his magic cave"? Or a department head said "You cannot use the Hindu Vedas in academic circles because they are regarded as books of myth"? How about a student suggesting a "Jewbaby killing party" during Passover?

Is it different to you, one way or another, when it's not Christianity being demeaned?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, November 24, 2006 6:26 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

dbl

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Friday, November 24, 2006 6:27 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Cartoon: this is the curriculum requirrment for Physician's Assistant undergrad:

Quote:
Pre-Physician Assistant Curriculum (First Year)

EN102 Freshman Writing Seminar ID103 Humanities Colloquium
CH105 General Chemistry (with lab) CH106 General Chemistry (with lab)
PH200 Physics for Health Sciences (without lab) Core (Div. 1 or 2)
BI105 Introductory Cell Biology (without lab)

H102 Public Speaking
PE101 Lifetime Fitness*+ Core (Div. 1 or 2)*
PE102 Lifetime Fitness Activity+
PX100 Health Sciences Seminar

*Interchangeable courses between semesters. Students must take both a division 1 and a division 2 core course.

+May be taken at anytime prior to graduation.
Pre-Physician Assistant Curriculum (Second Year )
Course

ID201 Change and Tradition
ID202 Change and Tradition
CH351 Organic Chemistry (with lab)
PX313 Clinical Biochemistry (no lab)
PX311 Human Anatomy (no lab)
PX315 Human Physiology (no lab)
BI323 Immunology (no lab)
BI325 Pathogenic Microbiology (with lab)
PS101 Psychology (Core Div. 3)*
MA260 Statistical Methods*

*Interchangeable courses between semesters. Students must take both Psychology and Statistical Methods.

AP301 History & Physical Assessment I AP302 History & Physical Assessment II
AP321 Clinical Medicine for PAs I
AP322 Clinical Medicine for PAs II
AP312 Pharmacology for PAs
AP305 Medical Procedures
AP313 Therapeutics for PAs I
AP314 Therapeutics for PAs II
AP405 Diag. & Ther. Procedures
AP331 Issues in Professional Practice
AP300 Problem-based Learning

Fourth Year Clinical Rotations

During the senior year, students are required to complete 12 months of clinical rotations (May through April). The sites for these experiential rotations are assigned within a designated radius of the Butler University campus. Students are responsible for providing their own transportation to these sites.

Students will have a one-month rotation in each of the following areas:

* family practice
* internal medicine
* pediatrics
* community mental health
* obstetrics and gynecology
* surgery
* orthopedics
* cardiology
* neurology, and
* emergency medicine.

In addition, students take a one-month selective rotation from one of four areas:

* family practice
* internal medicine
* pediatrics, or
* emergency medicine.

Students will have a two-week elective rotation scheduled in conjunction with two (2) weeks of vacation.

Finally, during the senior year, students will complete a five credit hour sequence of self-study courses reviewing clinical medicine, medical therapeutics, pharmacology, and history and physical exam skills. PSC courses are designed to help students strengthen their knowledge base as well as help them prepare for the national certification examination.

I looked very closely. Nowhere is there a requirement for Koranic Studies. Perhaps she is responding to the required course Change and Tradition which has already been mentioned, and is detailed as follows:

Quote:

An Overview : As an introduction to the study of historical world cultures, Change & Tradition (C&T) has been a centerpiece of the Butler curriculum since 1983. We invite you to explore with us the dynamic process by which civilizations—both past and present—form traditions and initiate change. Individual sections of C&T are taught by faculty from colleges and departments throughout the university. Binding us all together is a common interest in interdisciplinary study of global cultures. Though faculty varies, every C&T course has common goals. They are

To examine the process by which great world civilizations have formed their cultural traditions, the circumstances under which those traditions have been challenged by the forces of change, and the degree to which those traditions have persisted, evolved, or fragmented;

To establish the historical context for each culture that we study, and to explore the links between the present and the past;

To establish broad, thematic, cultural comparisons that will allow us to explore ethical values and cultural ideals, with an eye to identifying those values and ideals that seem nearly universal versus those that shift over time or that differ from one culture to another; and

To foster understanding of cultural traditions and values as they have been formulated and debated from within each culture.

Maybe Nye hit the one professor that emphasized the Koran more than she would have liked. Maybe she went looking for the professor that she knew would emphasize the Koran. But in any case, she's being disingenuous- in other words, she's lying- when she says For example, all students at Butler were required to take a course on Islam. As a Christian, how does she justify this bald-baced lie?

When she say I've had professors say Jesus was a homosexual, the god of Islam is the same god of Christianity, and sneer at the Bible calling it a book of myth - "that book with the talking snake and magic fruit." These statements were made in core content classes required by all students. I sure wopuld like to know WHICH "core" classes she was talking about. Because, yes, "core" classes ARE required of all students, but there are several dozen to choose from. She mentions several classes that sound like they might be philosophy or religion classes. Those seem to be the classes that she had the most issue with; because she de-identifies the classes she can pull several examples from ONE class and presents them as if they were from different ones.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 7:01 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
How would you feel about a university instructor who said, in class, that the Koran was "that book about crazy Mohammud talking with 'god' in his magic cave"?

It depends on the class. If it was a class on comparative religion, the content and point is fair game, altho the professor should moderate his language to be less offensive. We have only Nye's word that the professor "sneered" at the Bible, but given some of her whoppers I'm not sure I trust her subjective impressions.

Quote:
Or a department head said "You cannot use the Hindu Vedas in academic circles because they are regarded as books of myth"?

They ARE books of myth. And if you're studying that myth then you have to use them... it's a question of HOW you use them. The assigmnent was to

Quote:
analyze an essay by Nicholas Maxwell... and the professor returned my paper with 33 hand written comments on it such as, "What is good?" "What is faith?"

I expect that she quoted the Bible extensively as proof that God can be both all-powerful and all-loving, but that her analysis was deficient. She most likely substituted statements of faith for analysis. eg "It says here in chapter verse ..."

Quote:
How about a student suggesting a "Jewbaby killing party" during Passover?

I'm not sure that's a direct comparison to having a "crucifixion party". There are real Jewish babies around to be killed but Jesus is nowhere to be found. One could be interpreted as an actual threat. The other could be intepreted as desecration of a mythic figure. I'm trying to find an equivalent...

Quote:
Is it different to you, one way or another, when it's not Christianity being demeaned?

No. IMHO all religions are equal. However, like any other subject that deserves to be talked about, it deserves to be talked about in an honest, logical manner that is respectful of the person being addressed. ---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 7:57 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
No. IMHO all religions are equal. However, like any other subject that deserves to be talked about, it deserves to be talked about in an honest, logical manner that is respectful of the person being addressed.

I'm not asking you to rationalize or explain the quotes of Butler College staff and students, or the modified versions I inserted above. I'm asking how they make you feel. Since you believe all religions are equal, you should feel the same amount of disgust, agreement, disinterest, or whatever about them all.

Even if you don't believe in someone's faith, there's no reason to insult it in their presence, even in an 'educational' setting. People who do might have tolerence issues themselves.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, November 24, 2006 7:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Here's the test.

How would you feel about a university instructor who said, in class, that the Koran was "that book about crazy Mohammud talking with 'god' in his magic cave"? Or a department head said "You cannot use the Hindu Vedas in academic circles because they are regarded as books of myth"? How about a student suggesting a "Jewbaby killing party" during Passover?

Is it different to you, one way or another, when it's not Christianity being demeaned?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Here's a test right back. one of the arguments against " under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, that got mostly ignored, was : what if you *H*A*D* to say " one nation , under Allah" ?
Now the shoe is on the other foot. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Turn the other cheek?

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Friday, November 24, 2006 8:00 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Is it different to you, one way or another, when it's not Christianity being demeaned?

Nope. Professors are human with all their own biases. Some opinions are offensive, some are simply illogical, but just like you do with opinions of everyone else, you listen and form your own conclusions. Students need to learn to separate opinion from fact.

Apparently, Nye never learned.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

----------
Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles.
--Ambrose Bierce (1842 - 1914), The Devil's Dictionary

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Friday, November 24, 2006 8:11 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Here's a test right back. one of the arguments against " under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, that got mostly ignored, was : what if you *H*A*D* to say " one nation , under Allah" ?
Now the shoe is on the other foot. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Turn the other cheek?

I'd just as soon they dropped 'under God' and 'in God we trust' and all the rest. I got no belief in deities of any kind and would like them out of politics alltogether.

p.s. But just because I don't believe in a deity, that doesn't mean I consider it proper to insult those who do.
"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, November 24, 2006 9:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Nope. Professors are human with all their own biases. Some opinions are offensive, some are simply illogical, but just like you do with opinions of everyone else, you listen and form your own conclusions. Students need to learn to separate opinion from fact.

I disagree. Professors should not be treated like everyone else, especially when they are lecturing. First of all, professors are being paid to teach and I think that a student has a right to assume, within reason, that he or she will be taught. If the student must assume that the professor is no more credible then any arbitrary person then the student cannot assume that he or she has been taught anything, and the university is essentially defrauding the student of his or her money. Just as important is that college professors are viewed as experts and the source of knowledge of our society. If society cannot expect that they can fulfill that status then they do not deserve to be viewed as experts or knowledgeable, they do not deserve to be paid, they do not deserve tenure or any special status in our society.

Any professor who claims that “Jesus was a homosexual” or the victims of 9/ll were “little Eichmanns” should be viewed with contempt, not only because such a statement are almost certainly a belligerent attacks, but also because in the absence of evidence, which doesn’t exist to my knowledge, they are patently untrue and not appropriate for people society has entrusted with passing on our knowledge.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 10:23 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

How does this

Quote:
How would you feel about a university instructor who said, in class, that the Koran was "that book about crazy Mohammud talking with 'god' in his magic cave"? Or a department head said "You cannot use the Hindu Vedas in academic circles because they are regarded as books of myth"? How about a student suggesting a "Jewbaby killing party" during Passover?

make me FEEL? It depends very much on context. I find the comment on the Koran phrased in an insulting way, and given the current climate I would be worried about repercussions in ways that I might not worry if someone insulted Hinduism. Just facts of life. My reponse to the comment on the Vedas would depend. If I were writing a paper about the Vedas but couldn't reference them, I'd feel frustrated and likely complain to the Dean. If I were writing an analysis of ethics and kept referring to the Vedas as "proof" I would prolly feel embarassed by my own lack of analytical acumen. If I heard a comment about Jewbaby killing OR a crucifixian party and I thought it was anything other than a tasteless joke, I'd be frightened and call the police. Otherwise, I'd treat both a tasteless joke- the baby-killing one being more tasteless because it could be a real threat.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 10:33 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Any professor who claims that “Jesus was a homosexual” or the victims of 9/ll were “little Eichmanns” should be viewed with contempt, not only because such a statement are almost certainly a belligerent attacks, but also because in the absence of evidence, which doesn’t exist to my knowledge, they are patently untrue and not appropriate for people society has entrusted with passing on our knowledge.

But what if the professor came up with solid evidence to back up his/ her point?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 10:48 AM

Obviously, that would be something different.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 12:29 PM

ANTIMASON

Quote:
GEEZER:
I'd just as soon they dropped 'under God' and 'in God we trust' and all the rest. I got no belief in deities of any kind and would like them out of politics alltogether.

i agree..since the 'God' that theyre talking about is Lucifer, whom i pay no homage to nor hold an allegience with anyways. however it would be perfect if people would take the time to study the symbolism to recognize the differences between the God of christianity and the god of Luciferianism... since the masonic symbolism and language adopted by the american establishment is clearly idolatrous and occultic, not christian

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Friday, November 24, 2006 5:43 PM

I guess Nye said this:

Quote:

I've had professors say ... the god of Islam is the same god of Christianity.

I heard a Methodist minister make the same argument in a sermon-- the two faiths diverge with Abraham's 2 sons Ishmael and the other one whose name I forget. Same theme elaborated in discussion and bible study by a very learned, thoughtful, and respected lay leader, speaker, and Bible student ( one guy, not 3.)

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Saturday, November 25, 2006 2:28 AM

KANEMAN

"Colleges are tolerant of everything but one thing.
Intolerance."

How long have you been living in Narnia?

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Saturday, November 25, 2006 2:39 AM

KANEMAN

Why is everyone so down on intolerance anyway? What gives?

In my book:

Intolerance = Conviction
Tolerance = Negligence

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Saturday, November 25, 2006 4:11 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Why is everyone so down on intolerance anyway? What gives?

In my book:

Intolerance = Conviction
Tolerance = Negligence

Hehe... that explains a lot. You should get more books.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:33 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Professors should not be treated like everyone else, especially when they are lecturing.

In the real world, though, professors diverge and opine during lecture. I don't know a single professor who doesn't (and I've been around academia). It doesn't mean they are not experts and they aren't teaching. It just means sometimes personal opinions, both on topic and off topic, get mixed in with good, solid education. Call it contamination if you will. It happens. They're human.

It is up to the student to use a skill called critical thinking to sort that out. They are still getting the meat they paid for; they just have to do a little work and skim the fat off the broth.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

----------
Most powerful is he who has himself in his own power.
--Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

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Saturday, November 25, 2006 6:44 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Any professor who claims that “Jesus was a homosexual”...should be viewed with contempt, not only because such a statement are almost certainly a belligerent attacks, but also because in the absence of evidence, which doesn’t exist to my knowledge, they are patently untrue and not appropriate for people society has entrusted with passing on our knowledge.

Actually, there's a whole bunch of scholarship that goes along with this, having to do with John, the beloved deciple and first century same sex marriage rituals. One may discredit the scholarship, but it's there. And none of it is necessarily part of anyone's belligerent attack. The whole issue of Human sexual identity before the 19th century is fascinating in its lability.

Your assumption of contemptible beligerence is made simply out of ignorance, which is not a problem in the university setting until it becomes beligerent itself. But beligerent ignorance is exactly what Miss Nye brings to the table.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, November 25, 2006 7:30 AM