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Originally posted by Dayve:
"But one could ask, are you being biggoted toward the Far East, making fun of their formal wear ? Regardless of who is wearing it, calling it a 'silk dress' is pretty demeaning of another culture."


Auraptor... i thought about that and the last thing i would want to do is demean anothers culture, but in my view Mr. Bush has done enough to demean the culture of people that he has very little real knowledge of already. I apoligize for any hard feelings - but as i see it you can dress em up or dress em down.. and you still can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear....

but i stand on my Laura statement....!

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Originally posted by Dayve:

Thanks Jon...
And thanks for having a sense of humor... i did not mean to offend... but my first thought after seeing GW in the traditional attire was, man, i wonder what the gang down in the west Texas oil patch would have to say about ole 'Shrub' now.... i'm sure they got a laugh out of it...

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funny part was aimed at Bush (and Putin)'s expression at having to wear a silk "dress", not at the Vietnamese. And something to keep in mind about this particular discussion, being compared to Zippy in not a bad thing...


"Well, here I am...Does that seem right to you?"

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Grow a sense of humor, Twerp.

Of anyone, you need it most, especially what with your demigod being a moron.

-Frem

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Grow a sense of humor, Twerp.

Of anyone, you need it most, especially what with your demigod being a moron.

-Frem

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Originally posted by piratenews:

Seperated at Birth in Communist Czechoslovakia
Jewish Israeli citizen son of Mossad is director of US Dept of Homeland Security

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
.....exactly how has Bush demeaned any one's culture?

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Originally posted by Dayve:
I think bombing a city of innocent men, women and children for no good reason would be considered demeaning to one’s culture… but that’s just me…. I may just be too sensitive to the whole human rights thing…

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Or, more likely, you just don’t know what you’re talking about.

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Originally posted by Dayve:
I would suggest picking up a copy of the latest issue of The New Republic for some interesting reading on the subject of what to do about the war in Iraq.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
A Liberal Advocacy Journal has it all figured out.

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Originally posted by Dayve:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
.....exactly how has Bush demeaned any one's culture?

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I think bombing a city of innocent men, women and children for no good reason would be considered demeaning to one’s culture… but that’s just me…. I may just be too sensitive to the whole human rights thing…

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Originally posted by rue:
Dayve,

I feel for you. Just to let you know, by my experience you're banging your head on a brick wall. Some people are impervious to reason and fact.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
......you're just too one sided on the issue.

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I don’t think you can say that civilians were not targeted… that seemed to be the whole “shock and awe” strategy

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Add to the fact that 'shock & awe' wasn't fully emplemented

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You seem perfectly fine to allow such tyrants to carry on with their actual torture, rape rooms, mass graves, gassing of entire villages, ignoring UN resolutions, and what ever the hell he deems necessary to survive.

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Shock and Awe was abandoned because it failed to "awe".

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Um, with the (possible?) exception of the gassing of entire villages, haven't we seen the rest of these take place by our own?

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Shock and Awe was abandoned because it failed to "awe".

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Cute, but no. It was abandoned because Turkey didn't allow for US forces to use their bases. The plan was to have forces coming from the North and the South, at the same time.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
You seem perfectly fine to allow such tyrants to carry on with their actual torture, rape rooms, mass graves, gassing of entire villages, ignoring UN resolutions, and what ever the hell he deems necessary to survive.

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Um, with the (possible?) exception of the gassing of entire villages, haven't we seen the rest of these take place by our own?

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Umm...no. Not even remotely.

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Originally posted by JonnyQuest:
Really? We didn't just toss Geneva to the winds? There was no Abu Grabe? No Gitmo? We've heard no stories of rape by our troops?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

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Originally posted by JonnyQuest:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
You seem perfectly fine to allow such tyrants to carry on with their actual torture, rape rooms, mass graves, gassing of entire villages, ignoring UN resolutions, and what ever the hell he deems necessary to survive.

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Um, with the (possible?) exception of the gassing of entire villages, haven't we seen the rest of these take place by our own?

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Umm...no. Not even remotely.

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Really? We didn't just toss Geneva to the winds? There was no Abu Grabe? No Gitmo? We've heard no stories of rape by our troops?

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When comparing the US to Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, I’d say that’s a pretty good approximation. My guess is that you don’t really know the history of Abu Ghraib under the Ba’ath regime, do you?

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I am not comparing the US and Iraq in a tit for tat fashion. I was merely pointing out that nearly every offense listed could be listed as US offenses. As I was met with a less than enthusiastic "Huzzah!", I proceeded to give some specific examples that happen to be timely and relevant. What occured at Abu Grabe before we arrived and liberated it was inexcusable, but irrelevant to my argument. That fact is that whatever happened before we got there, the things we did are unacceptable to us, forget what the rest of the world thinks.

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As far as proceeding without the UN’s blessing, it seems to me that 17 chapter seven resolutions against Iraq that were blatantly ignored by Hussein should count for something, especially considering that the UNSC had been bought off with Hussein’s money.

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Again whatever Saddam and Company did is irrelevant in the face of our own offense here. We are (or at least, were) on the moral high ground, as we should always be, but we chose to ignore the UN and charge up the hill anyway. By the way, where is Saddam's wealth now?

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I can respect reasonable criticism of the US and this war, but trying to make the US out like the Iraqi regime, that’s something else, entirely.

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I am not at all sure I had a reasonable criticism here, but please know this, whatever else you may think of me, trying to make the US out like the Iraqi regime was the furthest thing from my mind.


"Well, here I am...Does that seem right to you?"

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Really? We didn't just toss Geneva to the winds? There was no Abu Grabe? No Gitmo? We've heard no stories of rape by our troops? We didn't ignore the UN's pleadings to wait? We didn't proceed without the UN's blessing? And where do you suppose all those bodies go when they die? We seem intent on arguing about where their souls end up, but how are so many casualties handled? You need to pull your head out of the desert sand.

P.S. I really not a snarky person at all but RWED just brings out the worst in all of us. I actually think you are a bright and thoughful being. If that helps any...

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Nice try. But my views are based in reason and fact. Unlike other's who post here.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
No, we didn't, as practice, toss Geneva to the winds.

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There's no denying that abuses did occur at Abu Grahib(sp). And those who did the abusing were tried , charged and sentenced.

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As for Gitmo, which holds mostly terrorists from Afghanistan, no Geneva convention rules have been violated. Non uniformed combatents, which these terrorists are, are elegible for execution on the spot. To date, I'm only aware of 3 deaths in Gitmo, all suicides.

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As for the UN, there was already ample permission, based on the various resolutions past , to use military force. We didn't NEED to wait,but the U.S. tried again anyway to get Iraq to comply, 1 last time, to no avail. I know there are folks who don't agree w/ the decission,and I understand that, but that doesn't change the facts.

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There was a war, no question. And lots of bodies had to be buried. But that hardly compares to what went on before, where folks were dragged out of their homes by Saddam's goon squad, fed to dogs, shot, or run through industrial sized wood chippers, feet first, while still alive. Folks didn't just dissapear off the street, never to be heard from again by their families, until the remains were found in some mass grave. I think there is a gross under reporting of what was going on in Iraq before the war as well.

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It's clear we see things from different view points. Even if we could agree on the specifics, the facts of all that's involved, I doubt very much that we'd find common ground, other than we wish it would all get resolved and everyone could come home and we'd all live in peace. On that we'd probably agree. How we get to that point, though, is another matter.

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Originally posted by Dayve:
wow, this thing is still bouncing around...?

My attempt at satire seems to bring out too much negativity on this board. I will try to refrain from raising hackles in the future. You can put me in pretty much the same boat as JonQ in as much as my purpose with the cartoon was meant to be humorous and not to be taken too seriously – after all it was Zippy the Pinhead who came out the loser in this one…

But, you all made fairly good arguments representative of each one’s political ideology, so maybe this little waste of time was worth the effort after all.

Sometimes humor and satire doesn’t translate too well here on the internets… I haven’t found my core audience it seems. And as far as poking fun at Bush – just let me say that we aren’t laughing at him so much as we are laughing with (the people who are laughing at) him…..

Besides, I see nothing wrong with the citizenry of a nation being critical of elected officials if those officials deserve to be criticized.

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Originally posted by JonnyQuest:

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Originally posted by Dayve:

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Originally posted by JonnyQuest:

Fkin' traitor...

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???? not the response i expected... but if that's the way you see it...
I thought we were on the same page here... but if you are mad because i didn't engage in a prolonged arguement with AU or Finn... sorry - i don't really like doing that - it's just going back and forth and no one ever really changes their mind about the sujbect -

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Nice try. But my views are based in reason and fact. Unlike other's who post here.

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Yes, the reason is you have no facts, and people are bored of dealing with you.

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And if that is the case, shouldn't we as the self-promoted benefactor to the world treat them with a modicum of dignity?

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So the question remains why Iraq and not some other country in clear violation?

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I do want to thank you for being incredibly civil in all your responses. And I'm not sure our ground is too different. But either way, it has been thought provoking and a pleasure, in a perverse kind of way, to engage in this discourse with you.

All I really wanted to do was share in the poking fun at the Prez.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
You can choose your own opinions, but not your own facts.

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Civility and thanks are met and returned. It's refreshing to have a honest, sincere discourse on here, once in a while.

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First one you've been involved in in your life, well done, though I suspect it has more to do with JQ taking your shit with good humour than anything else. Well done JQ, you must have the patience of a saint.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Problem is not everyone is a retard.

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Originally posted by JonnyQuest:
I do want to thank you for being incredibly civil in all your responses. And I'm not sure our ground is too different. But either way, it has been thought provoking and a pleasure, in a perverse kind of way, to engage in this discourse with you.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Civility and thanks are met and returned. It's refreshing to have a honest, sincere discourse on here, once in a while.

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Originally posted by citizen:
First one you've been involved in in your life, well done, though I suspect it has more to do with JQ taking your shit with good humour than anything else. Well done JQ, you must have the patience of a saint.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
No, citizen. It's called CIVILITY. Try it sometime, you'll be surprised with the results.

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Snipe, snipe, snipe. You can't even talk civilly about civility. This is why so many of us don't like coming here. And I can't believe I keep coming back! What's wrong with me...?
Oh, thanks for the compliments by the way. I think.



"Well, here I am...Does that seem right to you?"

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Oh, thanks for the compliments by the way. I think.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
No, citizen. It's called CIVILITY. Try it sometime, you'll be surprised with the results.

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