Everybody passes the buck by Malbadinlatin

When Bush stood on the pile that was the WTC and gave his little speech, I knew it would come to this. And the scared public bought it. Many still do. Fear rules with an iron fist- it's all throughout history.

I would have hoped we would've evolved beyond that by now.
What a dumb planet.

In need of a Firefly class transport Chrisisall

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 2:54 PM

ANTIMASON

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

When Bush stood on the pile that was the WTC and gave his little speech, I knew it would come to this. And the scared public bought it. Many still do. Fear rules with an iron fist- it's all throughout history.

i watched the video again the other day of his visit at the elementary school, the morning of 9/11.. i dont think its my imagination, but he has an awefully guilty look on his face; maybe it was just an intense focus.. trying to remember his lines about which plane crash he saw first

Quote:
I would have hoped we would've evolved beyond that by now.
What a dumb planet.

i can explain that.. there is no evolution

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 3:08 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Malbadinlatin:
catastrof#!k

Priceless.....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 3:26 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Well,

I'm not one of those who 'knew it all' beforehand. I didn't watch Bush's posturing and speechifying and realize instantly that we were headed this way.

I was shocked and angry, and I wanted revenge, and I was glad we were going to get some.

I was very happy to savage Afghanistan (actually, I still think that was worthwhile.)

I swallowed the notions about Iraq and WMD, and supported the decision to invade.

It wasn't until we found no WMD that I became shocked and angry in the other direction.

Then we set up shop in an ex-Iraq torture facility and started doing some torturing of our own.

And that's when my support for the war completely died away. That's also when I adopted this here signature quote below.

But I admit it. I was one of the rabble, cheering for war, and waiting to read the body counts of terrorist scum. I was a player in The Phantom Menace. I helped to sell us out to the Emperor.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 3:53 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

AnthonyT

You are capable of great change, and I hope to learn from you.

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 4:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Malbadinlatin:
Let's face it, in order to keep factions from fighting each other in Iraq, you have to rule like Saddam did, anything short has been tried, and historically hasn't worked. We don't want to rule like Saddam, it's not our thing. So there are 2 choices, brutalize the people of Iraq, or get out and leave them the hell alone.

Neither of these options are good for the Iraqi people. Both of them could, in the short term, improve matters for the US, but not Iraq. And these aren’t necessarily the only two choices, just the two that provide a quick and easy solution for the US. A third option would be to stay and try to help the Iraqi government fix this problem. That’s not as attractive an option for the US, but it may be a far better option for Iraqis and I think we owe it to them to try our best to fix the mess in Iraq.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 4:10 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
catastrof#!k

Ah, Comedy Central... you make it all better...

They're not passing the buck - they're playing hot potato. Burns something bad, though.

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 4:14 PM

ANTIMASON

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Well,

I'm not one of those who 'knew it all' beforehand. I didn't watch Bush's posturing and speechifying and realize instantly that we were headed this way.

neither was i.. but when i realized that the government 'knew it all' beforehand, i changed my worldview. believe it or not a lot of people predicted the 9/11 hijackings and ME immobilization in advance, but the mainstream media kept a lid on it for the most part. Alex Jones has his predictions on video in his july of '01 sydicated broadcast- you can watch it on google/youtube

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 5:32 PM

SIRI

Good point - the hot potatoe thing seems also to be an appropriate analogy.

As for me, horrified as I was the morning of September 11 - I was hoping for a calm and considered response. I wasn't sure about Afghanistan but at least there we seemed to be relying upon Afghanis (albeit the local warlords) to do the job. I have to use the word horrified a second time when the talk shifted to attacking Iraq. While I admit I had no idea if there were or were not WMD's or an Osama Bin Ladin connection anymore than others - perhaps the congress did believe the prez. Still, a pre-emptive attack felt wrong then and the results certainly don't seem to be helpful.

My problem now is that I have no idea the best course to take. Much greater minds that mine have ruminated the situation. So many are making predictions as to what will happen to that poor country and their people if we leave. Will they be even worse off than before? Do we have an obligation to try to help clean up the mess? How do we do that without further contributing to the chaos and destruction? Who can know for sure? Certainly not me and it seems not our president either.

And what will be the ultimate result? How many years will go by and what ripples will result before we know the outcome and repercusions of the stone cast in that pond?

Do we all have a responsibility? Probably so but certainly some more than others. Do we have a responsibility to speak up and attempt to help solve the problem? Up until recently those who spoke against the president were labeled traitors and terrorist sympathizers - perhaps even risking the dreaded terrorist surveilance squad - maybe not. I'm not big into conspiracy theories but I didn't like the way things were headed. Do we give up liberties to be safe? How far do we go down that slope when we become more like those we fear?

Hey, I'm glad for the discussion - as long as we're talking and thinking we've got a chance to come up with solutions. Maybe even some good ones.

As an aside, the night before 911 I was listening to a radio program and the topic was American Hedgemony and the effects in the world.

Siri

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:31 AM

Quote:
We are all responsible for this, unless you are one of the very few that were not seduced by the dark side after 911.

That'd be me.
*raises hand*

Several days after the fact I wrote a set of six blistering editorials related to the subject, at least one of which was published under a penname.
(If there's interest, I'll repost it here)

I was immediately suspicious of the so-called Patriot Act being brought out so quickly it HAD to have been written in advance, and voted on by reps who didn't even read it at a time of high emotions.

I demanded to see one whit of proof that
A - OBL had anything to do with it, when he himself passionately denied so.
B - OBL was actually in afghanistan and/or being abetted in any way by the Taliban.

And you can imagine how my hell I raised about us first obviously harrassing and provoking Iraq, then abusing UN inspection teams as a military intelligence sweep to make sure they were virtually defenseless before we invaded em.

Having already known prior to events about PNAC, "Clean Break" and the desire for a "Modern Day Pearl Harbor" as an excuse to execute it, some percentage of us tried like hell to point out this would happen if folks didn't stop and get a hold of themselves, and mostly got insulted and ignored.

Well, "I told you so" ain't no damn comfort when 3000 of our own troops have been wasted on this insanity - perhaps folks could start by listening to the people they've been dismissing out of hand for so long.

Last word - Anyone with a real good grasp of history KNOWS what a bad idea it is to sidestep the checks and balances and hand too much power to someone even with the best of intentions, but the cabal in power played on the emotions of the people with blatant propaganda to keep emotions high and prevent folks from thinking it over, which some folk also saw and tried to decry.

You wanna copy of the editorial posted, just say so.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, February 2, 2007 1:08 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
....I think we owe it to them to try our best to fix the mess in Iraq.

And by "fix", I'm assuming you mean installing a puppet Democracy. They can be a deputy US state like Puerto Rico. Maybe they'll even get an American Area Code too.

Then we can tax the hell out of them and force their women, against their religion and way of life, not only go to school, but to work too. Then their kids can grow up watching Iraqi rap stars on MTV while both parents are at work and learn to hate their parents. Oh, and they'll need a whole lot of booze, because that's a "safe" drug, unlike marajuana which they can grow themselves untaxed and has never killed anybody.

Then when the kids grow up all messed up they can watch movies like Hostil like that 44 year old guy in Fort Worth Texas that kidnapped his ex-girlfriend and tortured her with a blowtorch..... etc, etc, etc.....

I'm not saying it's any better there now, but.....

Trust me pal. They don't need any of our favors. Let them sort it out. Ain't our business.....

Frem - I'd be interested in giving your documentation a read. I'm constantly labeled a conspiracy theorist and have taken great pleasure in knowing that I'm right when other people couldn't see and being able to tell them "I told you so". It's just too bad that I'm being effected by it too or it would be REALLY funny.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, February 2, 2007 3:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
And by "fix", I'm assuming you mean installing a puppet Democracy. They can be a deputy US state like Puerto Rico. Maybe they'll even get an American Area Code too.

No. But that would be a hell of lot better for the Iraqi people then re-installing a Hussein 2.0, or leaving them to various militias and death squads.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 4:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

*raises hand*

*raises hand too*

Two things I didn't see though: I didn't think Saddam would be that easy (Yeah, easy...

) to catch, and I didn't expect Afghanistan was going to be as successful as it was. The mess in Iraq and the Patriot Act were givens. I had predicted Iraq was going to be a five year party with a ten year hangover (hairs of the dog, as it were).

And I'd be interested in those editorials too, Frem.

PS, although I'm not actually predicting it, a small nuke going off at our lovely new permanent base in Iraq just before Bush goes out of office wouldn't surprise me. That would really screw us: that way Bush could suspend the transfer of leadership under the new "Nuc-u-ler Terror Executive Extension" clause in the Patriot Act (Not yet made public for security reasons), and become President for life.
How's that for a scary scenario?

Quaking in his boots Chrisisall

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Friday, February 2, 2007 4:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
that would be a hell of lot better for the Iraqi people then re-installing a Hussein 2.0, or leaving them to various militias and death squads.

Forced to agree with ya there, Finn.

Chrisisall

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Friday, February 2, 2007 4:31 AM

Quote:
No. But that would be a hell of lot better for the Iraqi people then re-installing a Hussein 2.0, or leaving them to various militias and death squads.

I want you to go take as good a look as possible at Fallujah, what's left of it, and then a good look at the photos of casualties, theirs, ours and civvies, and I want you to answer me this.

"How is this better than Saddam Hussien" ?

Can you HONESTLY answer that one in the affirmative ? is it even possible ?
*shaking head*

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, February 2, 2007 4:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

"How is this better than Saddam Hussien" ?

He'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Finn means from this point foward it would be better.

But I agree with what you're saying Frem. However there are some that say all that death is worth it to end Saddam's torture squads and such...
my math don't have it like that, but hey, I'm not good at math anyway...

1+1-1=Chrisisall

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Friday, February 2, 2007 4:50 AM

Editorial's coming up next, I gotta bust it back from HTML formatting, gimme a min.

Chris, my primary concern at this time, tactically is the potential losses facing our naval forces if we start something with Iran.

The Excocet missle is no joke, kids..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_(FFG-31)

and they've got a right shitload of the damn things, more than enough to close off the strait and trap our forces in there while they pound the hell out of our ships with SSN22 Sunburns, which the PHALANX system is useless against, and they've got quite enough to saturate the SEARAM units even if they do work as well as advertised...
Which, given the usual quality control of US Defense Contractors, is a toss up anyway.

On top of that they actually have effective aircraft and anti-aircraft which combined with suppression of our carriers would deny us air superiority, something the US is so effective at that we've taken it for granted.

Frankly, our tactical position sucks, especially against a nation that's been actively planning it's defense against us for 20+ years, with a military that is not overextended and demoralized.

If Bush and Ahmadinejad wanna talk smack to each other, let em fekkin do it on Oprah, and not with the lives of our naval personnel hanging in the balance.

Oh, and Jack ?

Not glass, trinitite.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/trinitite.html

Mike R makes a damned good comment on the whole issue of THAT deterrent, raising some interesting points.

-Frem
(Editorial bit coming up next)

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, February 2, 2007 4:54 AM

I will ask this one kindness - if one should recognize this editorial, it's source, or the penname it was written under, speak not of it, please.

This one was written in mid-late november 2001, if I recall correctly.
===================================================

Return of "The Fear."

It doesn't take much effort, for those with long memories watching the events that have unfolded since Sept 11th, to feel the rise of an unquiet spirit, apparently back from the grave to haunt us once again.

Being that this is the Christmas season, lets view this in a format more appropriate for the holidays, say....from the viewpoint of ole Ebeneezer Scrooge....

THE GHOST OF McCARTHY PAST.

Most of you have little, if any idea who Senator Joe McCarthy was, but as those who do not remember history are eternally doomed to repeat it....you'd best be finding out.

"Tailgunner Joe" as he was known, was a nearly fanatical man, rising to power in a way all too common in history....pick an enemy, doesn't matter what it is, just pick one, and inflame everyone against them - then ride to power on the tide of the manipulated mob, it worked for Hitler, right?

The target picked by McCarthy back in the 50's was the "Red Scare" - Communism, a belief that history has since shown us isn't really even effective, but it was useful as a bludgeon to keep he and his cronies in power.

Even worse was the dread accusation "Un-American Activities"......enough fervor for this term was generated that the House of Representatives formed HUAC - the House Un-American Activities Committee.

HUAC and it's originators then set to performing a modern-day crusade, inquisition included. Federal Agencies, whom before were limited in power and mandated to obey the law, were given free reign within our borders, enforcing the will of the men in Washington, regardless of the Constitutional rights of those set upon by them, framing, planting evidence, rigged trials, all manner of chicanery was allowed them. A heavy price was paid by many; in fact, these agencies went so far rogue that new laws had to be created just to regain and maintain control of them, and their names would be forever blackened by those who remember just how low they could stoop.

The trial of Alger Hiss was a classic example; it no longer mattered if one was innocent or guilty, the mere presumption of guilt demanded a conviction - at any cost.

Soon to follow were the infamous "Hollywood Ten", a group of individuals in the film industry who dared exercise their Constitutional rights in the courtroom. They were summarily cited for Contempt, and thrown to the wolves.

The McCarran Immigration and Nationality Act was passed - a nightmare of red tape and restrictions on entering, or visiting the "Land of the Free". It was blasted by a 1953 letter relative to the issue.
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/indiv/lehsuite/lehman_mccarthy/Creepin
g_McCarthyism.html

Blacklisting and Greylisting became commonplace. "Loyalty Oaths" were demanded.

It became a witch-hunt, a hysteria, where the only safe place to be was on the delivery end of the accusation, rather than the business end. Countless numbers of otherwise decent American folks were caught up in this whirlwind.

It was a great relief to the nation and it's people when McCarthy was blisteringly censured, and an even greater one when he expired, convinced even on his deathbed that the supposed "Communists" he saw behind every tree, under every rock - were out to get him.

One of his main co-conspirators, Richard Nixon, later achieved the office of the Presidency, only to disgrace it by using the same tactics that fed HUAC in his campaign for office, and being caught in the doing.

At last the tide was turning.

The end result was 20 years of fear and loathing, of ourselves, and each other. It wasn't till 1960 that people again felt comfortable to even mildly dissent from the official "party line". Even then, due to COINTELPRO, "The Fear" was still there.

THE GHOST OF McCARTHY PRESENT.

Since Sept 11th, much has been done in the name of fighting "Terrorism", but a good bit of what has been done is quite disturbing.

The PATRIOT Act passing is just a taste of things to come. Unfortunately, it serves to remove the controls placed on certain Federal Agencies after HUAC. Obviously, the end-result of letting these mad dogs off their leashes has been forgotten by the majority of the public at large (and if you think we'll be getting those freedoms back in four years, ask Stalin or Lenin how long a "state of emergency" can last.)

Notice just how fast the definition of "Terrorism" is broadening. It seems these days any dissent is too much, it's almost...*gasp* UN-AMERICAN! (add hysteria, screaming, running around, etc..)

What, didn't anybody learn a damn thing from the chaos HUAC plunged our nation into?

A sad and tired irony is that the McCarran Act, formed out of one witch hunt, is now rather useful in serving as another convenient springboard for paranoiac politicians to jump to power on.

I cannot dismiss the image of Joe McCarthy rising from his grave like some kind of evil vampire to gloat over a nation, once again, so full of "The Fear" that it turns upon itself and claws it's own heart to shreds, falling into the kind of shouting, fingerpointing and accusation-slinging that would be more appropriate on Jerry Springer than in the populace and government of a civilized nation.

Up yours Osama, you don't scare me and never did, and those waving you in my face to frighten and cow me into allowing undue curtailing of my Constitutional rights and freedoms can kiss my star-spangled ass.

Ah yes, and now we have a new Alger Hiss, too - this Walker fellow, who's apparently on a one-way ride to a rigged trial at the ole "Rocket Docket", a court known to do what the government wants, regardless of the evidence. Why not just shoot him down in cold blood like the barbarians we are?

It doesn't make any sense to throw up a pretense of giving the poor schmuck a trial if we've already decided the verdict and punishment in advance. It just mocks all that we believe in. If he's renounced his citizenship, the charge of treason does not apply, and he should be tried with the rest of the Taliban.

When those in charge of enforcing our laws violate those laws, which they swore a solemn oath to uphold and enforce, it spits in the eye of everything that is America. It becomes the strong oppressing the weak, the police become gun-toting thugs (like Rampart, for example). The rule of Law is replaced by pure, rampant Darwinism of the most vicious stripe.

Yes folks, "The Fear" is back, with a new name, and a new game. Lets just hope that it doesn't take another 20 years to recover.

THE GHOST OF MCCARTHY FUTURE.

This one's up to you folks. If you are willing to surrender your freedom just because it's dangerous to be free then you never deserved it in the first place.

Life has risks, and some of those risks do come from other people, but that's no reason to hide in a cage, no matter how gilded it is.

Now before you dare call me Un-American, Treasonous, Disloyal or what have you, understand something else. I don't buy the fiction of "America" as the beauty queen she's being made out to be, but I love the old bitch, warts and all. I don't have to buy into some polite fiction of us being "The Good Guys" in order to care greatly about our nation, and neither does anyone else.

In fact most of these "Dissenters" are not blasting the "America" you hold so dear at all!

What folks are blasting is the unthinking, ignorant, robotic, yes-man loyalty of the type that spawned Adolf's brown-shirt party and later led to bloodshed beyond imagination - something no one wants a repeat of.

If you are going to be patriotic, have a little sense in the doing. You know most of those flags you folks are waving? Well, turn em over - what do they say ? MADE IN CHINA....oh, that's realllll patriotic, ain't it now.

Please remember that the flag is based on something. It is based on a set of beliefs laid down in our Constitution and it's Bill of Rights. However - when you wave that flag over an act against those beliefs, you spit on all it stands for, and damned if I will accept that laying down.

/END
===================================================
The only comment imma make is to repeat one line from the original.
"and if you think we'll be getting those freedoms back in four years, ask Stalin or Lenin how long a "state of emergency" can last."

We told you so.

NOW will you listen when we say attacking Iran is *suicide* ?
PLEASE ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, February 2, 2007 5:58 AM

Bravo, excellent AND a good history lesson to the newbies (peeps under 40)!

It's been a long time for me, but I'll bet they don't teach ANYTHING about McCarthy-ism in school...I know that's not where I learned about it.

I love PBS Chrisisall

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Friday, February 2, 2007 8:27 AM

SIRI

Frem,

Your trestise on the past (and potential) future and McCarthism is woefully prophetic.

My father fought in WWII in the South Pacific. He was with that group of Marines on Iwo Jima (not one of the ones in the pictures). I remember hearing how when he returned home after the war, he was involved in starting the first WFW post in our town. Later they asked him to sign a loyalty oath. He told them to "go to hell if you're questioning my loyality" walked out and never went back.

Today I work as a therapist in a rural community mental health clinic. Our former medical director is a Japanese American. He and his family were put in one of the encampments during WWII when he was a child. He worried that they might start rounding up folks of middle eastern descent and put them in camps. A friend and peer is half-Lebanese, she expressed concern that they might put her and her sisters into a camp.

Some people remember but not enough. Thanks for the reminder. If we forget, it could happen again. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...

Siri

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Friday, February 2, 2007 8:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
He'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Finn means from this point foward it would be better.

Yes, I was referring specifically with what we do now, not what we did then, but even still, Fallujah or not, Iraq is better off now then it was under Hussein. However, if we leave too early, and the government falls, that could change.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 9:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Fallujah or not, Iraq is better off now then it was under Hussein.

Finn, I know Saddam was a monster, but are more peeps better off now, I mean, calculating the dead, wounded and dying in Iraq (excluding non-Iraquis), was this way worth it? Was there no other way to oust Saddam, assuming it had to be done when it was? Was there no way to blast him in a palace somewhere, and do some fuel-air explosions to sway unruly gun-toating peeps that would try to gain dictatorhood?
Not bein' silly here (least, not on purpose

), I just don't see why boots on the ground was the only answer when we can remove oxygen from the air for a quarter mile....?
And back to the first question, isn't it better to be alive in an oppressive regime, than dead, period? I mean with all the thousands of Iraquis that died in this, numerically, you still think it's all worth it? Would these thousands have died anyway due to Saddam himself sooner or later?

Chrisisall

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Friday, February 2, 2007 10:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Finn, I know Saddam was a monster, but are more peeps better off now, I mean, calculating the dead, wounded and dying in Iraq (excluding non-Iraquis), was this way worth it? Was there no other way to oust Saddam, assuming it had to be done when it was? Was there no way to blast him in a palace somewhere, and do some fuel-air explosions to sway unruly gun-toating peeps that would try to gain dictatorhood?

You mean do we have the ability to lay enough waste to Iraq to get rid of Hussein? Yes. I would think so. But I don’t think it would have swayed the unruly gun-toting peeps (I’m not sure that’s a military term.

) But I also think that it would have taken more force then we would have wanted to use or should use. And getting rid of Hussein wasn’t the only reason; there was also the WMD issue. The fear was that removing Hussein alone would not have solved that problem without a Western presents to control the rebuilding.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
And back to the first question, isn't it better to be alive in an oppressive regime, than dead, period? I mean with all the thousands of Iraquis that died in this, numerically, you still think it's all worth it? Would these thousands have died anyway due to Saddam himself sooner or later?

Without a doubt thousands, even millions, died under Saddam Hussein. I don’t think that Iraq is necessarily worse in that regard. And also there is the issue that Hussein had no intent of changing things. Left up to him and his sons, that oppressive regime would have lasted indefinitely. But today, there are real elections in Iraq, and if that can be maintained and most importantly instilled in the Iraqis then, in the long run, Iraq will be much better.

As for the question of whether it was worth it. That’s somewhat subject, but I would have to say it depends on how it ends. There’s no doubt that things didn’t go our way. We didn’t find the WMDs we thought were there and we misjudged the Iranian factor. Those are pretty big mistakes that both Washington and London failed to account for. Now the Iraq-Al Qaeda connection was real (despite what you hear) but if Iraq had no WMDs to hand off to Al Qaeda, then that issue is left somewhat muted. The pointless UN Resolution was the biggest mistake. Iraq should have been dealt with by the UN, but the UNSC failed miserably to provide enough incentive for Hussein to follow the UN’s resolutions. There should never have been 17 Chapter Seven Resolution on the same issue in a row against the same country with no declaration of war. So was it worth it? I can think of many ways I would have preferred to see this handled, but if Iraq can be left with at least some kind of stable democracy then I think it will be worth it, mistakes and all.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 10:29 AM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
...but if Iraq can be left with at least some kind of stable democracy...

Yeah, good luck with that.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 11:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
And getting rid of Hussein wasn’t the only reason; there was also the WMD issue.

A combo of fabrication, wishful thinking and specific inept-ness, I didn't buy into it for a moment, then or now.
Regardless, thank for the answer, Finn. But I just don't see a stable anything in Iraq's immediate future...maybe in ten years or so...?

Unruly gun-less peep Chrisisall

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:08 PM

The scary part is what I see when I look forward now, regardless of whether we get into it with Iran or not.

Dissenters and Protesters dissappeared, renditioned or hauled off to gitmo.

Americans bombing, and eventually carbombing, the megacorps that have taken over almost every aspect of life here.

And as more time passes...

Several abortive secession attempts, followed by a second civil war.

It can happen, it WILL happen, unless enough folk put the brakes on it, I've seen a lot of this crap coming since 1982 and have put a lot of effort into trying to derail a train wreck that's gonna end with Americans using a nuke....
On other Americans.

And that's if the rest of the planet doesn't finally get sick of imperial aggression and band together to wipe us off the map first.

There's still time, but we have a madman at the throttle, and the rest of the asylum shovelling coal... and that light at the end of the tunnel they keep tellin us about is an oncoming train.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
a train wreck that's gonna end with Americans using a nuke....
On other Americans.

"That's gloomy." -Once More With Feeling

"Look, let's just make sure it doesn't come to that." -Aliens

Chrisisall

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
"Look, let's just make sure it doesn't come to that." -Aliens

You remember how that film ended, right?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
You remember how that film ended, right?

Yeah, the nuke was used on Aliens. Silly silly British man.

Crikey...now I have to watch it tonight, I thought about it too much!

Citizen's fault Chrisisall

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
You remember how that film ended, right?

Yeah, the nuke was used on Aliens. Silly silly British man.

Crikey...now I have to watch it tonight, I thought about it too much!

Citizen's fault Chrisisall

Well technically the Fusion based atmospheric processor went critical after the coolant system was damaged by the crash of the dropship after the initial engagement (though the Smart rifle fire during the fight may have caused some damage too).

But whatever eh.

Call yourself a geekIsAll...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Well technically the Fusion based atmospheric processor went critical after the coolant system was damaged by the crash of the dropship after the initial engagement (though the Smart rifle fire during the fight may have caused some damage too).

Uhhh...you've seen it then?

Quote:

Call yourself a geekIsAll...

Extended version with Cameron intro here I come.

Chrisisgeek

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Uhhh...you've seen it then?

No, never heard of it.

But the special edition with the auto cannons is really good. Not that I know.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Not that I know.

"It's wall to wall in there!"

Buffy could have used 'em in Chosen....

Pre-weekend thread hijacking Chrisisall

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:59 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"The Excocet missle is no joke, kids..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_(FFG-31)"

Actually, I see the Stark as an example of the *failure* of the Exocet missile.

No, Iran would be a big heap of ugly trouble for reasons that have nothing to do with Iran's military prowess. With air superiority, naval superiority, and land superiority, we'd still suffer huge casualties and inspire many generations of future terrorists.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, February 2, 2007 1:17 PM

WTF? I believe in reincarnation, let's cut loose on Iran! I'll even go if ya let me fly a jet.

Serious Chrisisall*

*just kidding

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Friday, February 2, 2007 1:25 PM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I demanded to see one whit of proof that
A - OBL had anything to do with it, when he himself passionately denied so.
B - OBL was actually in afghanistan and/or being abetted in any way by the Taliban.

Regarding the November 2001 Bin Laden video (in Afghanistan??) (including a complete transcript): http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec2001/d20011213ubl.pdf

A transcript of the October 2004 Bin Laden tape (where he also claims responsibility):
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/bin.laden.transcript/

A transcript of the May 2006 Bin Laden tape (where he also claims responsibility): http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12939961/

A transcript of the February 2003 Bin Laden tape where he talks about the bombing at Tora Bora, saying: "No second passed without aircrafts passing over our heads day and night" -- thereby also indicating (by the use of first person plural) that he was present in Afghanistan: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1429201

So, according to Bin Laden's own words, he was responsible for 9-11 and he was in Afghanistan.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 2:35 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Return of "The Fear."

(snip)

Wait - history class is good for something?! Well, I did know the fellow it talked about, so, that's good.

Nevertheless, nice writing.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 4:58 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Loads of interesting reading in here today. What a great debate. I only wish I didn't work (hah) nights because I'd like to be a bigger part of this discussion while it happened. I know because of this, I'm going to forget a lot of the replies I had in my head while I was reading the posts. So sorry if I left anything or anyone out ahead of time.

Firstly Frem.... thanks for the wonderful history lessons, and information that you're not very likely to get on CNN or FOX. Although I knew a moderate amount of information about McCarthy before I think Chrisisall said it best when he said "...I'll bet they don't teach ANYTHING about McCarthy-ism in school...I know that's not where I learned about it." I know I sure didn't even hear about the man at all in school, though I vaguley remember hearing about "McCarthyism" here and there growing up. Most likely from my grandparents.

It's possible that he WAS in the Social Studies books, but seeing as how that book was by 3 times the largest book we had in school every year I went and I went to public school, we usually only skimmed over the material and probably only really read about a 10th of it at most. I know I HATED history lessons when I was a kid. It was far and away my least favorite subject. I suspect this was due to music I listened to and cartoons that I watched when I was a kid. Not to mention all the crap you get from all of the other kids already when you're the first one done with all your work and you get the best grades in class.
I recommend you give some of these cartoons a look on Cartoon Network and Saturday morning cartoons and see just how adult a lot of the ideas are hidden under the cute childlike graphics, and some of the ideas I think the kids just soak up like a sponge. I don't think I need to mention the subversive lyrics in music (that I'm just as guilty of listening to now as I was then). Things really haven't changed much in those regards except now they swear a lot more and that just acts as another buffer to shield the actual contents of the music from parents who refuse to listen to the actual lyrics their kids are eating up.

Anyhow...... It's sad that we don't learn about anything important in school, unless you think it's important to teach kids to color within the lines, always carry your ID card on you under any circumstances, speak with 6" voices, and not to speak until you raise your hand and are called on.

Several points that I remember that I wanted to speak on, in no real particular order. I'm sure there are more, but I can't recall exactly and we'll just try to keep this post under the length of a Steven King novel.

Quote:
Frem: "There's still time, but we have a madman at the throttle."

Unfortunately, I don't believe this would be any different had we had any other Repuglican or a Demoncrat in office. I don't believe that they are anything more than a front for the machine that works behind them no matter which side of the coin we're throwing the tomatos at.... I suspect that you don't either.

Quote:
Frem's posted article: "If you are going to be patriotic, have a little sense in the doing. You know most of those flags you folks are waving? Well, turn em over - what do they say ? MADE IN CHINA....oh, that's realllll patriotic, ain't it now. "

Now THAT is just BEAUTIFUL! I couldn't help but smile and think of how stupid humans are in general when reading that.

Quote:
Frem's posted article: "Please remember that the flag is based on something. It is based on a set of beliefs laid down in our Constitution and it's Bill of Rights. However - when you wave that flag over an act against those beliefs, you spit on all it stands for, and damned if I will accept that laying down."

I just posted on the thread started by Khyron about this yesterday. I still haven't read that thread since our last post Khyron, I will soon though if you read this before I post there. I'm very interested in hearing your reply from what we were discussing yesterday.

I don't know how many countless times I've said that Patriotism and love of your Government is two totally seperate things, although the latter would have you believe otherwise. It's really sad how the media can wave banners of the flag behind all of thier news reports now with dramatic music and manipulate people into a "patriotic" frenzy, (FOX news is notorious for that) and we can just sit back and watch them wave that flag as if they were the torches the townspeople used in the original Frankenstein movie. Meanwhile, the Constitution is being ripped apart behind their backs while they foam at the mouths. I don't get too emotional about anything anymore, but I'm getting a little misty eyed reading and writing about that....

Quote:
Frem: I will ask this one kindness - if one should recognize this editorial, it's source, or the penname it was written under, speak not of it, please.

I have never read this before. I have no clue what the source is or what the penname is, but I happen to be a fan of that particular style of writing and I have my suspicions. If it was who I think it was though I don't think you'd be wanting to keep it a secret, so they're probably a big fan like I am. Great article whoever it was though.

And last, but not least, Finn....

Quote:
"Without a doubt thousands, even millions, died under Saddam Hussein."

Without a doubt in your eyes. Nobody has ever proven this to me. I've never been there once and I saw Forest Gump shake JFK's hand in 1994. Do you remember the PC you were using at home in 1994? Yeah.... their's have gotten much better too. This is not me telling you that he didn't, it's just me telling you that maybe you shouldn't just blindly go on believeing everything you hear on the news as if it was blind faith in God.

Quote:
"But today, there are real elections in Iraq, and if that can be maintained and most importantly instilled in the Iraqis then, in the long run, Iraq will be much better."

Puppet Democracy. See post above. If you'd like I can illustrate more examples of how shitty we are to each other here and how poorly our Government treats us but I think deep down you already know.

Quote:
"We didn’t find the WMDs we thought were there and we misjudged the Iranian factor."

The WMD's who thought were there? The American people who were lied to? Certainly not the people who lied to us.

Quote:
"....if Iraq can be left with at least some kind of stable democracy then I think it will be worth it, mistakes and all."

Ummmmmmm yeah.... well, I certainly don't want any people I know dying for this possibility. And I'll be damned if I want one more cent of my tax dollars going to the effort. We have no idea if it will be any better for them ever, no matter what efforts we take. Being the pessimist I am and seeing how shitty we are to each other I seriously doubt it. They will become religionless within 3 generations of Television like we have become here and I don't think that's what they want.

Bottom line, I don't care what happens there if we left. It's not my responsibility and it's not my business. They're fighting about things I don't care about in the least. Why don't we worry about keeping illegals from coming over the borders and stopping the silent invasion of the United States that is happening while we sleep first?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, February 3, 2007 8:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Republicans blame Democrats, and vis versa for the war in Iraq. When congress voted to award President Bush the right to wage war AS HE SAW FIT, they all (except 1)

Not quite right. There was one member of the House who voted against the war, but 23 Senators. Quite a few- not surpisingly all Democrats plus one Idependent-- voted against. These are the people who had vision:
Akaka (D-HI) Bingaman (D-NM) Boxer (D-CA) Byrd (D-WV) Chafee (R-RI) Conrad (D-ND) Corzine (D-NJ)
Dayton (D-MN) Durbin (D-IL) Feingold (D-WI)
Graham (D-FL) Inouye (D-HI) Jeffords (I-VT)
Kennedy (D-MA) Leahy (D-VT) Levin (D-MI) Mikulski (D-MD) Murray (D-WA) Reed (D-RI) Sarbanes (D-MD)Stabenow (D-MI) Wellstone (D-MN) Wyden (D-OR)

Quote:
became responsible for every American sacrificed in this tragic war. We the people are just as much to blame. After 911 everybody wanted to kill the terrorists.

Again, not quite right. Even at the height of the furor, about 15% of the population could see where this was going and opposed it. That include me. I'd been expecting an attack for about 5 years. I was just glad it wasn't any worse.

Quote:
Now everyone blames somebody else for the catastrof#!k we find ourselves in. Let's face it, in order to keep factions from fighting each other in Iraq, you have to rule like Saddam did, anything short has been tried, and historically hasn't worked. We don't want to rule like Saddam, it's not our thing. So there are 2 choices, brutalize the people of Iraq, or get out and leave them the hell alone. We are all responsible for this, unless you are one of the very few that were not seduced by the dark side after 911.

There is a third option, and that is to partition Iraq- at least in terms of internal security- and to find regional garantors of each partition.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Saturday, February 3, 2007 11:06 AM

Uh huh, tapes of a Right handed, ring-wearing, pug nosed "Osama" with a much darker complexion.

I remember them and their translations being rather thoroughly debunked, too.

Please Note: I am neither agreeing with him, nor vouching for his honesty because I do not trust his words any more than those of our so-called leaders, but after pretty blantantly fake tapes appeared - whether propaganda for Al-Qeada to cover up the fact that OBL has likely expired from kidney failure, or propaganda from US sources, any contention over OBL "claiming to have done it" is a flat lie.

In response to 9-11 what OBL *SAID* was this.

"USAMA BIN LADEN: In the name of Allah (God), the most beneficent, the most merciful. Praise be to Allah, Who is the creator of the whole universe and Who made the Earth as an abode for peace, for the whole humankind. Allah is the Sustainer, who sent Prophet Muhammad (saw) for our guidance. I am thankful to The Ummat Group of Publications, which gave me the opportunity to convey my viewpoint to the people, particularly the valiant and momin (true Muslim) people of Pakistan who refused to believe the lies of the demon (Pakistani military dictator General Pervez Musharraf).

I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. It is the United States, which is perpetrating every maltreatment on women, children and common people of other faiths, particularly the followers of Islam. All that is going on in Palestine for the last 11 months is sufficient to call the wrath of God upon the United States and Israel. There is also a warning for those Muslim countries, which witnessed all these as a silent spectator. What had earlier been done to the innocent people of Iraq, Chechnya and Bosnia? Only one conclusion could be derived from the indifference of the United States and the West to these acts of terror and the patronage of the tyrants by these powers that America is an anti Islamic power and it is patronizing the anti-Islamic forces. Its friendship with the Muslim countries is just a show, rather deceit. By enticing or intimidating these countries, the United States is forcing them to play a role of its choice. Put a glance all around and you will see that the slaves of the United States are either rulers or enemies of Muslims.

The U.S. has no friends, nor does it want to keep any because the prerequisite of friendship is to come to the level of the friend or consider him at par with you. America does not want to see anyone equal to it. It expects slavery from others. Therefore, other countries are either its slaves or subordinates. However, our case is different. We have pledged slavery to God Almighty alone and after this pledge there is no possibility to become the slave of someone else. If we do that it will be disregardful to both our Sustainer and his fellow beings. Most of the world nations upholding their freedom are the religious ones, which are the enemies of the United States, or the U.S. itself considers them as its enemies.

The countries which do not agree to become the U.S. slaves are China, Iran, Libya, Cuba, Syria [Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iraq, Sudan, Indonesia, Malaysia] and Russia. Whoever committed the act of 11 September are not the friends of the American people. I have already said that we are against the American system, not against its people, whereas in these attacks, the common American people have been killed. According to my information, the death toll is much higher than what the U.S. Government has stated. But the Bush Administration does not want the panic to spread. The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; the people who are a part of the U.S. system, but are dissenting against it. Or those who are working for some other system; persons who want to make the present century as a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own civilization, nation, country, or ideology could survive. They can be anyone, from Russia to Israel and from India to Serbia. In the U.S. itself, there are dozens of well-organized and well-equipped groups, which are capable of causing a large-scale destruction. Then you cannot forget the American Jews, who are annoyed with President Bush ever since the elections in Florida and want to avenge him.

Then there are intelligence agencies in the U.S., which require billions of dollars worth of funds from the Congress and the government every year. This [funding issue] was not a big problem till the existence of the former Soviet Union but after that the budget of these agencies has been in danger. They needed an enemy. So, they first started propaganda against Usama and Taleban and then this incident happened. You see, the Bush Administration approved a budget of 40 billion dollars. Where will this huge amount go? It will be provided to the same agencies, which need huge funds and want to exert their importance. Now they will spend the money for their expansion and for increasing their importance. I will give you an example. Drug smugglers from all over the world are in contact with the U.S. secret agencies. These agencies do not want to eradicate narcotics cultivation and trafficking because their importance will be diminished. The people in the U.S. Drug Enforcement Department are encouraging drug trade so that they could show performance and get millions of dollars worth of budget. General Noriega was made a drug baron by the CIA and, in need, he was made a scapegoat. In the same way, whether it is President Bush or any other U.S. President, they cannot bring Israel to justice for its human rights abuses or to hold it accountable for such crimes. What is this? Is it not that there exists a government within the government in the United Sates? That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks."

Mind you, I am no more inclined to believe him than I am the shovellers on capitol hill, but what we got here is an accusation against OBL, then OBL denying it, and then NOT ONE WHIT OF EVIDENCE EITHER WAY.

Show me some.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, February 3, 2007 11:15 AM

Quote:
I recommend you give some of these cartoons a look on Cartoon Network and Saturday morning cartoons and see just how adult a lot of the ideas are hidden under the cute childlike graphics, and some of the ideas I think the kids just soak up like a sponge.

Funny thing about that, Jack...

I learned a damned lot of classical music appreciation and history from Bugs Bunny - that system can be worked for good or ill, I think.

C'mon, ya gotta admit that Bug ROCKED THE HOUSE when he did his own take on The Barber of Seville... and wasn't half bad at Wagner either.

Quote:
I have never read this before. I have no clue what the source is or what the penname is, but I happen to be a fan of that particular style of writing and I have my suspicions. If it was who I think it was though I don't think you'd be wanting to keep it a secret, so they're probably a big fan like I am. Great article whoever it was though.

Oops, guess I wasn't clear on that one.
I wrote it, and several more - but not as yer good buddy "Frem".
And I'd take it as a kindness if we keep that little bit between us all browncoats here, ok ?
It's unlikely anyone would make the connection, but it would be a little awkward, I think.

Quote:
Bottom line, I don't care what happens there if we left. It's not my responsibility and it's not my business. They're fighting about things I don't care about in the least.

Bing.Bang.Boom.

Again, Amen and Hail to the Church of Mind Yer Own Business.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, February 3, 2007 12:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I recommend you give some of these cartoons a look on Cartoon Network and Saturday morning cartoons and see just how adult a lot of the ideas are hidden under the cute childlike graphics, and some of the ideas I think the kids just soak up like a sponge.

This is nothing new. Propeganda has been spread in children entertainment for centuries, most nursury rhymes have a hidden message. I remember watching the Raccoons as a kid, there's no hiding the message behind that.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, February 3, 2007 12:25 PM

MALBADINLATIN

Thanks for the clarification. It's nice to hear from some of the few who were not sucked in by the 911 Anger/Fear-mongers.

As for partitioning Iraq...it didn't work in Vietnam so much, but you're right, maybe the notion that neither sunni nor shiite holding sway over the other could get them to stop killing each other. And the Turks...they will have a royal s#!t if we give the Kurds autonomy. To the Turks, the Kurds ARE terrorists.

But ya know what...when did everyone fall in love with the Iraqi people? I dont think we should accept responsibility for a struggle that's gone on since forever. We didn't at all mind embargo-ing them for years on end. Who among us can deny atrocities committed while we supported Saddam against Iran. If our only reason for staying is because we think we're now responsible for thier behavior...that's a massivly messed up co-dependant relationship in the making.

But, I say again...thanks for the clarification on those politicians. Maybe we should select one of them to run for President...if that would only be possible...

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Saturday, February 3, 2007 12:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Malbadinlatin:
As for partitioning Iraq...it didn't work in Vietnam so much, but you're right, maybe the notion that neither sunni nor shiite holding sway over the other could get them to stop killing each other. And the Turks...they will have a royal s#!t if we give the Kurds autonomy. To the Turks, the Kurds ARE terrorists.

But ya know what...when did everyone fall in love with the Iraqi people? I dont think we should accept responsibility for a struggle that's gone on since forever. We didn't at all mind embargo-ing them for years on end. Who among us can deny atrocities committed while we supported Saddam against Iran. If our only reason for staying is because we think we're now responsible for thier behavior...that's a massivly messed up co-dependant relationship in the making.

The main problems of Iraq started after the First World War with the fall of the Ottoman empire. The region was carved up by the Western powers with little regard for long preserved tribal boundaries.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, February 3, 2007 1:08 PM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
The main problems of Iraq started after the First World War with the fall of the Ottoman empire. The region was carved up by the Western powers with little regard for long preserved tribal boundaries.

Yep.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Saturday, February 3, 2007 3:55 PM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
In response to 9-11 what OBL *SAID* was this.

Okay. So the three other videos of Bin Laden taking responsibility for 9-11 isn't really him. I think you're right. Upon closer observation, it looks like Elvis. And I think I saw Hitler, JFK and Jimmy Hoffa standing behind him.

I should know better than attempting to post references in here coming from someone's own mouth about what they, themselves, did. Silly me.

Thanks for the wake up call. I'm admittedly slow on some things, but I should've realized sooner that the posters in here already have all the answers about everything.

I need to stick to forums with posters who aren't wearing tinfoil hats.

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Saturday, February 3, 2007 4:26 PM