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Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Why do the people who already run the world want to go to such elaborate lengths, and involve themselves in such incredible "plots" to attempt to take over the world that they are already in control of?

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posted by Fletch2-
The problem with this is that it makes no sense. If you crash an airliner into a building and you investigate it, what you find is that a building was hit by an airliner. That evidence supports the official case.

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What you are saying is that supplemental charges were placed to ensure the destruction of the building to cover up the fact that there were supplemantal charges... redundant in the extreme.

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"it is difficult for the observer to believe that such a giant, well organized conspiracy does exist, and that the goals they envision for the world(a NWO) are real. this disbelief by the public is what fuels their success, and it behooves the 'Conspiracy' to plan their events in such a way that the truth becomes so incredible and so preposterous, that no one would believe they(the events) were intentionally created.

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Nobody has found any molten steel on the site, the explanation for why the towers fell does not really on the ironwork melting to explain the collapse.

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Thermite would be a poor choice for this kind of demolition anyway, a fast, shaped explosive to sever key structural elements would be the only way to ensure success.

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Conspiracy theories are like Hollywood movies the plans always work, in real life people fail to properly demolish buildings every day.

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Actually that's entirely the wrong way of doing it... Western culture has absorbed the Judeo Christian belief in manafest destiny. In reality you WANT the jet to hit Rummy's office (when he's not there of course) you want him to be a survivor put forward the idea that God spared him for greater things. Especially important if you plan on having him lead a war.

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You are also especially forgetfull of what happened that day. Bush was shovelled onto Airforce One and flown around out of contact with anyone.

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First we heard from him after a couple of hours was from inside a concrete bunker in bugspit Idaho (or somewhere.) It took the speech with the Firemen at ground zero to restore his fortunes, for the first few hours the nescessary security made him look like a wimp. Now if you planned all this, if you knew that the attacks were over and there was no risk to POTUS you could have had him out there, resolute, defiant in the face of posible danger.

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The President over ruled his own security and hurried back to Washington ignoring fears of a follow on attack." Great stuff, very cinematic, the kind of action fictional Presidents to on TV and movies, the kind of action people in the US are conditioned to expect..... except he didn't.

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Originally posted by oldenglanddry:

People will believe what they want to believe.
You are a pretty classic example of that case in point and you've pretty much just substantiated everything i said

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Before I leave this thread to wind down to it's inevitably Pantomimic conclusion let me pose a question. I've posed it before and nobody has answered it satisfactorily so now you can have a go. It's simply this:

Why do the people who already run the world want to go to such elaborate lengths, and involve themselves in such incredible "plots" to attempt to take over the world that they are already in control of?

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Originally posted by antimason:
that and population control are two obvious answeres;

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Originally posted by antimason:


because they dont have there world government established yet.. that and population control are two obvious answeres; and they cannot track your person yet, or micromanage your behavior

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oldenglanddry-

There is a partial example of the self-perpetuation I was talking about.
You can come up with "reasons" for why the "plots" will never end because "they" have'nt done so-and-so yet Ad Infinitum.

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The only real conspiracy is the number of distractionists out there deliberately spreading conspiracy theories.

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Originally posted by Khyron:

Can't be population control, birth rates soar in unstable and/or underdeveloped regions (with some exceptions), are at or below replacement level in stable and developed regions (with some exceptions). Starting a war may kill hundreds of thousands, but the dead will quickly be replaced by babies once the war is over.

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Originally posted by antimason:


and youll constantly come up with excuses why everthing happens merely by accident, with no motive or cause.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Your problem AntiMason is that you think your conspiracy is the truth and the real world view the distraction.

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"A really efficient totalitarian state would be one in which the all-powerful executive of political bosses and their army of managers control a population of slaves who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude. To make them love it is the task assigned, in present-day totalitarian states, to ministries of propaganda, newspaper editors and schoolteachers.... The greatest triumphs of propaganda have been accomplished, not by doing something, but by refraining from doing. Great is truth, but still greater, from a practical point of view, is silence about truth."

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"From the days of Sparticus, Wieskhopf, Karl Marx, Trotsky, Rosa Luxemberg, and Emma Goldman, this world conspiracy has been steadily growing. This conspiracy played a definite recognizable role in the tragedy of the French revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th century. And now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their head and have become the undisputed masters of that enormous empire."

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"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes. The governments of the present day have to deal not merely with other governments, with emperors, kings and ministers, but also with Secret Societies which have everywhere their unscrupulous agents, and can at the last moment upset all the governments' plans."

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"The real rulers in Washington are invisible, and exercise power from behind the scenes."

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The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the Government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson."

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Fictions are necessary to the people, and the Truth becomes deadly to those who are not strong enough to contemplate it in all its brilliance. In fact, what can there be in common between the vile multitude and sublime wisdom? The truth must be kept secret, and the masses need a teaching proportioned to their imperfect reason.

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Originally posted by antimason:

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Your problem AntiMason is that you think your conspiracy is the truth and the real world view the distraction.

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a lot of prominant people have spoken about it, including people like Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson.. i guess theyre crazy too? *(or just distractions)

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Originally posted by Fletch2:

Well since you don't actually quote them how can I tell? The ones you do quote all appear to be out of context, so we really have no idea what they are talking about. I'm sure if you fillet "Mein Kampf" you can make Hitler sound like he loves all the Jewish people.

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Says nothing except the truth about totalitarian states. You may wish to see America as such a state because it's consistant with your delusion.

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I do not and I doubt that most of the people here, even the ones that deeply loath the current administration, would consider America a totalitarian state.

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You attribute this to Churchill but even the site you took these quotes from (one of the sites that obviously tell you what to think) doesn't give a proper reference, just saying "the London Press 1922." Assuming that the attribution is correct (and a lot of made up stuff gets attributed to Churchill) then this was probably in relation to the British governments deliberations on recognising Soviet Russia which Churchill opposed.

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Again can not find a none tinfoil source for this. However, both this quote and the one from Churchill come from men that were running the largest Empire the world had ever known, one that your pall Priate News STILL thinks runs the world. Yet the quotes are obviously not talking about THEIR side but about those that oppose them. That doesn't strike me as supporting your case.

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Absolutely, nobody here even questions that, just follow the money.

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Capitalist economy which means that the people that own the capital have a disproportionate influence over events than those that don't. Case in point. Back in the early 1990's just after the Gingrich revolution the BBC looked into party fundraising in the US. What it found was that prior to the Republicans taking control of Congress Democrats collected the most money, after the change it was Republicans. Now think on that a moment. If a business made contributions based purely on ideological reasons -- say the board thought that Republican's economic policy was more "pro business" -- you would expect them to keep making contributions to that party irrespective of if it was in power or not. In fact if you truly believe in their platform then you're more likely to give them more when they are out of power, because you believe in their agenda and want to see it enacted. So from an ideological viewpoint there should be no change in funding, you would only expect the money to flow mainly to the encombant if those contributing believed that they would get favours for it. After all, the opposition is not really in a possition to force through legislation beneficial to you no matter what their political stripe.

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So he's talking about how the mason's know stuff the plebes do not. Much the same as you insist that you know things we do not. Now wether this is true or a delusion is outside the scope of this discussion.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
The problem is that anything can be assumed without evidence.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
The problem is that anything can be assumed without evidence.

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I assume you are a rubber duck, discuss.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Are you infering he's yellow?

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Response: Don't believe the official 'conspiracy' theory

We have to ask who stood to gain the most from the appalling events of 9/11

Tim Sparke
London Guardian
Tuesday, February 13, 2007

George Monbiot's explicit attack on the film Loose Change (A 9/11 conspiracy virus is sweeping the world ..., February 6) has no basis in fact. While we accept that there are flaws in the current version of the film, we stand by its overarching theme that the official "conspiracy" theory of 9/11, constructed in the hours, days, weeks and months after 9/11, is false.

In uncritically endorsing the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) report, Monbiot neglects to say that the collapse mechanism for the entire World Trade Centre building was never documented by NIST - it didn't see it as its job. Additionally, in accepting that the towers collapsed at virtually free-fall speed ("the weight of the collapsing top storeys generated a momentum the rest of the building could not arrest"), Monbiot shows no awareness that this explanation violates the law of conservation of momentum.

Monbiot also appears oblivious to NIST's failure to explain that, although fire could not have melted any steel, there were pools of molten metal under the rubble, and these pools remained molten for weeks after the collapse; that dozens of people, including firefighters, news reporters and fleeing victims, all reported massive explosions; the clear video evidence of explosions taking place; that virtually all the concrete was pulverised into tiny particles; the apparent disintegration of the central steel core; and the destruction of all the evidence from America's biggest crime scene, which was covertly transported to Asian and African shores before any forensic examination could take place.

Monbiot then endorses the idea that Building 7 collapsed because "thousands of gallons of diesel [were poured] on to the fire" - oblivious to the fact that, even if an enormous fire could have caused a symmetrical collapse (which required all 81 steel columns to miraculously fail simultaneously), there was, as photographs and eyewitnesses reveal, no enormous fire. Monbiot also appears unaware that several engineers and demolition experts, after studying videos, have declared that this collapse can only have been caused by explosives.

Monbiot suggests that thousands of people must have been involved in the conspiracy, as if the official story must therefore be true. We have no clue as to how many (though some suggest probably fewer than 1,000); but wasn't the Manhattan project, involving 100,000, kept secret, even from Vice-President Truman, until weeks before the first atom bomb was dropped?

Monbiot then suggests that CounterPunch - by refuting the film's claims - has to be correct, because it is a left-leaning newspaper. But acceptance of the official "conspiracy" theory is not a left or right political issue. It is about whether we should accept unconditionally a story which defeats the laws of physics, denies the abundance of witness testimony, and rejects video evidence put forward by an organisation, which, in hindsight, we know had the means, motive and opportunity, and also has a record of being economical with the truth.

We agree that our movie can't answer all the questions that millions of people now have - but the fact that Loose Change is the most downloaded film in internet history is the strongest argument for an honest public debate, and a truly independent inquiry. As we say in the 9/11 Truth Movement: ask questions, demand answers, investigate 9/11.

Tim Sparke is executive producer of Loose Change Final Cut. tim@joiningthedots.tv

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