Troll Threshold by AnthonyT

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
2) their position or sentiment is unpopular with the majority.

Well, I think we could stand to bandy about words like "moron," "idiot," "stupid," and so forth a great deal less frequently when disagreeing with people. "Illogical," and "irrational" would definitely go on that list to. (For God's sake, I'm a philosopher--just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are being illogical).

No idea on what the troll threshold is. On the other hand there is at least one person I can think of that seems to have split personalities. He claims his little brother gets on the computer, and that may be; but how are we to know? He could always log off when he's done...

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Monday, February 26, 2007 5:36 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

According to this definition

Quote:
2. n. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, “Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll.” Emphasis mine

there is some legitimacy to the claim(s) that I think you're responding to. That's not to say I agree/disagree with the people who are making said claims, merely that their reasons for calling "troll" aren't without merit.

From http://www.answers.com/troll&r=67

Edited for clarity.

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Monday, February 26, 2007 5:49 PM

Damn.....I read "threshold" and thought it was soomething we could throw trolls over.......*FMF slinks away muttering about bonfires, pyres and TRSdogs*

----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

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Monday, February 26, 2007 7:08 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"regularly posts specious arguments"

So apparently, if you find no merit in someone's arguments, they are a troll.

I don't think it's a good definition. It allows you to label and disregard people you don't agree with. It's the opposite of discussion, and the enemy of argument.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, February 26, 2007 10:07 PM

I think at least part of the problem is a growing trend to start threads concerning dubious or even vacuous subjects, which are troll bait in themselves.
Personally, I respond to threads that I think are inflamatory or nonsensicle in a sarcastic or mocking way because I think they deserve it. If that in itself is trollish I apologise but I think that certain people should consider more carefully about the "discussions" they are trying to start.

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Monday, February 26, 2007 10:47 PM

SOUPCATCHER

I personally think that what makes someone a troll is not their behavior but the motivation behind that behavior. For example, and this kind of goes back a ways to when threads on the front page of the site tended to stick around for a while

, every so often someone would post a thread that needed to be Troll Country'ed. If Haken (or, later, Shiny or 'Tash) wasn't around FFFn'ers would start bumping other threads or starting new threads just to move that off the front page. Sometimes this would turn into epic battles. If you just look at the actions involved, there really is no difference between that and spamming. But the intent is completely opposite. Since intent is often hard to determine, I'm really not sure who is or is not engaging in trolling. I have a sneaking suspicion that some RWED regulars aren't interested in discourse but rather muddying the waters and preventing substantive discussion (my personal definition of a troll). I just make sure that I try to maintain focus if I ever hook up with one of those people in a thread.

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Monday, February 26, 2007 11:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
I have a sneaking suspicion that some RWED regulars aren't interested in discourse but rather muddying the waters and preventing substantive discussion

And therein lies my exact criteria.

By topic change, ad hominem, nitpicking, or causing a he-said-she-said furball that drives everyone else out of the topic, some folks seem damned well intent on preventing ANY substantive discussion of certain topics around here, and even some of the decent folk have stooped to it on certain particular topics.

While certain other posters have made heroic efforts to get a straight answer, which, let's be honest here, ain't ever gonna be forthcoming, mostly such activity in both directions serves naught more that to drive away posters and effectively wreck substantive, intelligent discussion here - there's no point to debating or explaining or even replying to such attempts as it simply feeds the process.

I generally refrain from even using the term at all, myself, and pay no mind save when such folks leave themselves wide open to irresistably humorous potshots... guilty as charged in that respect.

But overall, if you look at it very carefully, you'll see in many cases intent to derail or demolish any reasonable, rational discussion, and subtle that it might be, it's pointedly obvious when it's the same folk over and over - and was more so when certain of them used sock puppetry to make one voice sound like several, but thankfully the use of that tactic has declined, probably because it was so painfully obvious when it was used.

What rooks me the worst about it is that between that and the singleminded nastiness, and seeming inability to do the wise, polite thing and simple agree to disagree, folks around here seem to feel the need to ram their opinions down each other throat, something all of us are to some degree guilty of... RWED has fallen to a very small community of extremely thick skinned people making the same arguments over and over, resulting in an unwelcoming stagnant pool of hostility that doesn't exactly attract folks to reasonable, rational discussion here.

So I would say.. these days, the threshold is prolly pretty durned low.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:18 AM

SOUPCATCHER

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
By topic change, ad hominem, nitpicking, or causing a he-said-she-said furball that drives everyone else out of the topic, some folks seem damned well intent on preventing ANY substantive discussion of certain topics around here, and even some of the decent folk have stooped to it on certain particular topics.

There are times when I've caught myself doing this and stopped, and times when I've gone ahead and done it anyway. Hell, looked at a certain way, my snarky comments on the WTC-7 thread could be seen as an attempt to silence debate by mocking those who hold a particular viewpoint. And, if I am brutally honest, that was partially my intent in writing them. So there's that.

But I also agree with you that there are serial offenders who really don't bring much to the table otherwise. That's kind of one of my criterion. I'll gloss over a lot of anti-social behavior if the poster brings the goods. It's funny because we've got a decent level of expertise in a number of different disciplines/philosophies/backgrounds. We've just also got the friction that comes with that diversity.

And I think it definitely helps if you've been called a stupid-ass sheep-fucking inbred no-good cocksucker at least once before in your life.

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:59 AM

HERO

Perhaps most everyone of the regulars around here are guilty of trollish behaivor at some point. But that does not make folk trolls, just human.

I've found that with one or two exceptions most people here are capable of enlightened social dialogue, occaisonal fits of humor, and trolliatic musing. It makes for good and contentious debate.

The real trolls are usually easily identified...they put "Pirate" in some part of their screename.

H

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 6:17 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
The real trolls are usually easily identified...they put "Pirate" in some part of their screename

Ding!Ding!Ding!

Might not cover every troll, but a fair 90%, is my guess.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 6:45 AM

DEEPGIRL187

This isn't quite on topic, but I thought of it while reading.

Something that's bothered me (and this might just be my own perception) is the fact that some of the people that frequent the RWE don't seem to post elsewhere. I think the intense discussions here might cause some people to be perceived as trolls, when in fact they just have strong opinions. Not saying that one can't post solely in one area, but some of us that frequent other parts of the forum only see one side of the RWE folks.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Just what is the 'Troll threshold' here where someone is labeled a troll? What are the criteria used, exactly?

* Having a discussion is impossible with them.
* If they fail to cause a flame war they bow out and try elsewhere (If they're opponent actually keeps their temper and attempts to keep on the subject they stop responding).
* When they post on a thread it means a flame war is almost guaranteed within a few posts.
* Ad Hominem attacks are near exclusively more a feature of their posts than any attempt at substantive discussion.
* Nearly every post to someone who disagrees to their stance is always heralded with idiot or a synonym.

All clearly disruptive to any possible discussion, all consistently shown by certain posters. I happen to define a Troll as someone who goes out of their way to disrupt debate so consistently that it has to be deliberate and purposeful.

I'd also mention that since I've decided not to respond to certain posters with anything more than “please don't feed the Trolls” the number of Flame wars I've found myself in have dropped away immensely. In fact I don't think I've been in a one since, I may be wrong but no incidents are apparent. As such I feel fairly secure in my assessment of some posters.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:38 AM

SIGMANUNKI

I agree that the term is somewhat overused today. Not really just here, but everywhere. I personally think that "troll" is a fuzzy term that defies definition to a certain (large?) degree.

But, as has be stated above, people will behave from time to time like a troll. They might be having a bad day, or someone hit a nerve, or... This doesn't exactly mean that they /are/ a troll, just that they are behaving like one.

But, once someone is pretty much just behaving in a way that is contrary to productive discussion, then they /are/ a troll.

Sometimes, it might be as simple as the wording used. Such as starting a sentence with "Listen, ". This gives a rather adversarial tone to the post straight off. One that can't really be shaken.

The problem here is that the "good" trolls post in such a way as to not appear like a troll. It's not that they is a definition, or a threshold. But, people can typically point to one.

Personally, I think that if people would just take greater care with the words they choose before they hit post, a lot of this problem would go away.

At lest that's my opinion.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 10:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

There are three useful things to do with trollish behavior:

1) Sympathize
2) Ignore
3) Stay on-topic and refuse to be diverted

In this forum I prefer the last approach because I find few genuine trolls here. I think some people are just so emotionally enmeshed with their own arguments that they can't put any distance between themselves and a topic, so disagreements turn into bar fights instead of discussions.

The one troll who DOES operate here is very skillfull and makes a show of being "reasonable".

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 10:35 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
I'd also mention that since I've decided not to respond to certain posters,....the number of Flame wars I've found myself in have dropped away immensely.

Zero is the number I'm thinking of here,for my part.

Quote:
As such I feel fairly secure in my assessment of some posters.

As do I. Now more than ever.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 10:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

breathe deep and release

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 1:51 PM

The troll is sayin' it ain't been in any flame wars, that's just funny.

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No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 2:12 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"There are three useful things to do with trollish behavior:

1) Sympathize
2) Ignore
3) Stay on-topic and refuse to be diverted"

I don't have the time to babysit.

---------------------

I think the reason WHY people use the word TROLL more often is b/c a couple of times there was a consensus that some people WERE trolls. And the power of social disapproval worked. One troll reformed and another is nearly much gone.

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 2:15 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

To add:

"I don't have the time to babysit."

Some people may consider this trollish. But it is merely my honest response to the topic. For a long while I tried the 'reasonable' approach, like dealing with misbehaved children. But it took a lot of time and got nowhere. So now I just say what I mean.

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Tuesday, February 27, 2007 3:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I say what I mean too. I don't think anyone would ever say that I DON'T.

But I find that responding to provocation wastes more time than ignoring it. If I find something objectionable I just don't respond to it.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Wednesday, February 28, 2007 3:24 AM

KANEMAN

The troll threshold is ridiculously low. Some people here(easily located because of their limp wrists and vagina's) act like you slapped their mothers if you disagree or make a joke they deem not funny. Others just have branches shoved so far up their asses they can't help being retarded ass pickers. Oh! there is also that mob mentality that runs wild here. I love this board.

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Wednesday, February 28, 2007 4:44 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
The troll threshold is ridiculously low. Some people here(easily located because of their limp wrists and vagina's) act like you slapped their mothers if you disagree or make a joke they deem not funny. Others just have branches shoved so far up their asses they can't help being retarded ass pickers. Oh! there is also that mob mentality that runs wild here. I love this board.

Possibly an attribution based on phrases like 'limp wrists and vaginas'?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, March 6, 2007 10:19 PM

Bump

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Wednesday, March 7, 2007 7:21 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Oh! there is also that mob mentality that runs wild here.

STONE THE TROLL!!!!!!
*angry mob sounds*

Better run, Kanedude.

Trollish Chrisisall

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Wednesday, March 7, 2007 7:31 AM

JKIDDO

hahahahahahaha!!!!!!

That's funny Chris!

BTW- I'm SignyM. Every once in a while I molt and re-emerge as something else.

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Wednesday, March 7, 2007 8:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
The troll threshold is ridiculously low. Some people here(easily located because of their limp wrists and vagina's) act like you slapped their mothers if you disagree or make a joke they deem not funny. Others just have branches shoved so far up their asses they can't help being retarded ass pickers. Oh! there is also that mob mentality that runs wild here. I love this board.

What, pray tell, is a limp vagina? How does one know it is limp? Is it limp or limping? What are the symptoms? Is there a cure? Does size matter after all?

----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

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Wednesday, March 7, 2007 8:32 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Is it limp or limping? What are the symptoms? Is there a cure? Does size matter after all?

FMF, shut up and throw the stones!!!!
*angry mob sounds*

Chrisisall, an angry part of the mob, otherwise he never would have said "shut up" to the lovely FMF...

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Wednesday, March 7, 2007 1:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Is it limp or limping? What are the symptoms? Is there a cure? Does size matter after all?

FMF, shut up and throw the stones!!!!
*angry mob sounds*

Chrisisall, an angry part of the mob, otherwise he never would have said "shut up" to the lovely FMF...

*FMF stops pondering limp vaginas and grabbing stones runs to catch up with the angry Chrisisall*

FORSAKEN original

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Wednesday, March 7, 2007 2:08 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
RWED has fallen to a very small community of extremely thick skinned people making the same arguments over and over, resulting in an unwelcoming stagnant pool of hostility that doesn't exactly attract folks to reasonable, rational discussion here.

Again, well said Frem.

What is disturbing is that *I* might be one of those thick skinned people making the same arguments over and over again. Oh my god, I've turned into a troll!

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

--------------
Nullius in verba. (Take nobody's word.)

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Wednesday, March 7, 2007 3:02 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Good post Anthony.

... Resident Troll, 6SJ

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, March 7, 2007 3:14 PM

PENGUIN

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
*FMF stops pondering limp vaginas and grabbing stones runs to catch up with the angry Chrisisall*

King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Wednesday, March 7, 2007 3:17 PM

YAY Penguin! All hail King Penquin!

Thanks!

FORSAKEN original

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Wednesday, March 7, 2007 3:20 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Emperor penguins are bigger than King penguins.

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Wednesday, March 7, 2007 3:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Emperor penguins are bigger than King penguins.

It isn't the size that matters!

FORSAKEN original

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 3:11 PM

JASONZZZ

Maybe it's time to "reboot the matrix" - should hope to help clear things up a bit...

seriously, half the time people are just reading way too much into the "intend" of the wordings of the posts. Instead of getting all huffed up about what the other person posted (which, BTW is a response that the reader is entirely responsible for. Nobody controls your own emotions but you), confirm your suspicion before escalating the nastiness... It's driven many a good people away for RWED for many many times... And the result is exactly what you've described - a stagnant pool.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
RWED has fallen to a very small community of extremely thick skinned people making the same arguments over and over, resulting in an unwelcoming stagnant pool of hostility that doesn't exactly attract folks to reasonable, rational discussion here.

So I would say.. these days, the threshold is prolly pretty durned low.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 3:42 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Emperor penguins are bigger than King penguins.

And llamas are bigger than frogs.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Sunday, March 18, 2007 9:37 PM

Bump

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Monday, March 19, 2007 7:26 AM

Anti Kanegirl bump

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Monday, March 19, 2007 7:47 AM

KANEMAN

Old England dry, What's up? Mad about my sex slave comment? Jeez, talk about a stuffy dry old English lass......

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Monday, March 19, 2007 8:18 AM

Well, this thread has gone way off topic, but I'm going to post anyway, just in case someone is still interested inthe original topic. I've had some serious heartburn in the past on these boards because of one simple fact: I do not hold the majority opinion. I'm socially conservative and a Christian and that makes me the minority. Now I don't particularly care whether I'm in the minority or not, because I love the hell out of Firefly, so I'm going to stick around. But there are certain members of the majority (and thankfully not that many) who seem to think that mere disagreement with majority opinion entails troll status. I don't think that's right. What do the rest of you think?

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Monday, March 19, 2007 8:21 AM

KANEMAN

I agree. Imagine that.

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 3:33 AM

SHINYED

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Well, this thread has gone way off topic, but I'm going to post anyway, just in case someone is still interested inthe original topic. I've had some serious heartburn in the past on these boards because of one simple fact: I do not hold the majority opinion. I'm socially conservative and a Christian and that makes me the minority. Now I don't particularly care whether I'm in the minority or not, because I love the hell out of Firefly, so I'm going to stick around. But there are certain members of the majority (and thankfully not that many) who seem to think that mere disagreement with majority opinion entails troll status. I don't think that's right. What do the rest of you think?

I think it's disgusting how a handful of smug, smart-assed, Wikipedia-educated know-it-all liberal jerks try to dominate these boards, and hurl personal insults at FF fans.....and I'm not saying any names here...so it's not personal, despite many of you who love to call individuals here assholes and worse.

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ShinyEd:
I think it's disgusting how a handful of smug, smart-assed, Wikipedia-educated know-it-all liberal jerks try to dominate these boards, and hurl personal insults at FF fans.....and I'm not saying any names here...so it's not personal, despite many of you who love to call individuals here assholes and worse.

And I think it's funny how a handful of rude, ignorant, foul mouthed uneducated know-it-all conservative jerks try to dominate these boards and constantly hurl gross insults and inflammatory remarks with little or no substance whatsoever while proclaiming themselves morally, intellectually and essentially superior to anyone who disagrees with them.

And I'm not saying any names here... so it's not personal, despite some of you who love to call individuals "smart-assed liberal jerks" assholes, morons and much much worse the moment their rhetoric and cult of personality reasoning fails, which is disturbingly often before the end of their first post, if not before.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1:47 PM

The trouble is: both sides do it. One just has superior numbers.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1:57 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I don't mind a bit of slaggin, if a poster 'brings the goods' to a discussion, but if all they have is insults or fairy tales, there ain't no point to even holding a discussion with em.

If they're adding to the discussion, fine, if they're subtracting from it, then they're just a vandal.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1:59 PM

But what constitutes "fairy tales" varies from individual to individual. We pretend that there's some one way to tell what's what, but their just isn't, not in any ultimate sense. And so we resort to what we always to: social pressure and censure. That's why one side is bad for saying, "You're uneducated!" and the other side is sensible for saying the exact same thing.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 2:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
The trouble is: both sides do it. One just has superior numbers.

I insult people who insult me. Some here insult people just because that's all they're capable of, others because that's all they want to do. I don't think it's unreasonable to call someone a Troll if they always respond to every disagreement with a personal insult, nor is it unreasonable to call someone a troll if they constantly post generalised personal insults and purposefully inflammatory statements without any other purpose to their responses.

Though many of the trolls here (and no I don't mean you to be clear) like to characterise an accusation of 'troll' as merely disagreement with someone's politics for my part nothing could be further from the truth. If someone acts like a troll, I'll call them a troll, regardless of their politics.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 2:05 PM

I guess what really disturbs me is that we've divided ourselves into camps: left and right. The two cannot get along, not around any subject because it's essential to the nature of each to oppose the other. So no real meaningful dialogue can take place, just flame and ugliness. And I just don't see any real way to fix it. None at all. And that scares the shit out of me, when it comes to the future of the West.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007 2:12 PM