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Originally posted by rue:
"Doesn't bother me, have to be everybody though, because bad guys will always be able to get guns somehow." ...I suspect it's one of those things that get repeated over and over, true or not. Does anyone have ANY data to back this up?

Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, this goes into the 'maybe' pile and doesn't count for purposes of the topic.

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There is no physical way to prevent this kind of thing from happening. Perhaps you can protect yourself--live in a concrete bunker, pay people to get your mail, or something--but You won't prevent this from happening to someone else.

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But exactly nothing can be done in these extreme cases. No amount of control can make us safe from madness.

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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4948538901303259236
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6006926775914305210

State Rep Suzanna Gratia Hupp, R-Lampasas, testifies to Congress in opposition to gun ban laws, after her parents were murdered in front of her. She had a handgun carry permit, but federal and Texas law banned handguns in restarants, so she left her gun in her car. Luby's massacre was a mass killing that took place on October 16, 1991, in Killeen, Texas, United States when George Hennard entered a Luby's Cafeteria and shot and killed 23 people, wounded 20 and then killed himself. Only the work of a large man breaking through a window allowed the rest of the patrons to escape. One noted exception was a mother and her 4-year-old child, whom Hennard allowed to leave. Though Hennard was shot several times by police, only when he ran out of victims did Hennard walk to the rear of the seating area and take his own life with a gunshot to the head.

As a direct result of this massacre, in 1995 the Texas Legislature, led by Suzanna Gratia Hupp (whose parents were both killed in the massacre), passed a law over the veto of former Governor Ann Richards that allowed Texas citizens to obtain a concealed carry handgun permit in part as a reaction against the massacre. Soon after, many states considered similar weapon permits for citizens.

The Luby's massacre remained the deadliest criminal mass shooting in United States history until April 16, 2007, when the Virginia Tech massacre occurred. In the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre on July 18, 1984, 21 died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby's_massacre



A bill in the Virginia legislature last year that would have allowed students with concealed weapons permits to carry their guns at schools was killed, with VA Tech spokesman Larry Hincker heralding the move as action that would "help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus." "Isn't it interesting that Utah and Oregon are the only two states that allows faculty to carry guns on campus. And isn't it interesting that you haven't read about any school or university shootings in Utah or Oregon? Why not? Because criminals don't like having their victims shoot back at them," Gun Owners of America's Larry Pratt said yesterday. "That's why the American people want an end to this ineffective gun ban." 85% of Americans support the right of a principle or a teacher to have instant access to a safely stored firearm in order to defend the lives of students and prevent a school massacre, but a drive is already underway to disarm more victims and grease the skids for more horrors similar to what unfolded yesterday.
www.infowars.com/articles/2nd_amendment/va_tech_shooting_gun_control_l
aw_helped_campus_killer.htm

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Originally posted by RojBlake:
According to reports Rosie O'Donnell has a bodyguard who carries a full-auto machine pistol.

One of the members of the much forgotten (& rightfully so) "Million Mom March" was busted in New York for carrying a handgun while putting up signs for the (anti-gun) march.

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"There is no way to ever ban guns in USA. That will never happen. I spent many years trying to do that, as hard as I could, and I had no effect. So now I don't try."

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VIDEO: UT Tower Shooting: Cop Ray Martinez

Ray Martinez the "official" hero of the 1966 University of Texas Tower Shooting who shot Whittman, the US Marine Corps tower sniper. This was one of the most infamous mass murder cases in US crime history, with suppression fire from the heavily armed citizens (ignored by the Media Mafia).
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4419115466870548681&hl=en

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The suspected gunman in the Virginia Tech shooting rampage, Cho Seung-Hui, was a troubled 23-year-old senior from South Korea who investigators believe left an invective-filled note in his dorm room, sources say.

The note included a rambling list of grievances, according to sources. They said Cho also died with the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on one of his arms.

Cho had shown recent signs of violent, aberrant behavior, according to an investigative source, including setting a fire in a dorm room and allegedly stalking some women.

Cho was an English major whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school's counseling service, the Associated Press reported.

Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university's English department, said she did not personally know the gunman. But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department's director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as "troubled."

She said Cho was referred to the counseling service, but she said she did not know when, or what the outcome was.

Investigators believe Cho at some point had been taking medication for depression. They are examining Cho's computer for more evidence.

According to court records, Virginia Tech Police issued a speeding ticket to Cho on April 7 for going 44 mph in a 25 mph zone, and he had a court date set for May 23.

www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-070417vtech-shootings,1,17
6236.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

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Originally posted by rue:
You know how you can spot a Canadian in a crowd of USers? They walk with their heads up, looking around with interest. USers OTOH are defensive, furtive folk, used to trying to avoid being a target.

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Not ALL places are dangerous hostile little worlds. Some places are quite pacifist, nice places to visit, to work and live, actually. My question is - how does the US get from here to there.

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Jamaica has very strict gun control laws, and a murder rate 7.7 times that of the US, generally referred to in media reports as "gun crimes" although I havent found any stats yet. Mexico also has many restrictions on firearms ownership (there's only one gun store in the whole country), yet 1.2 times the US firearms murder rate.

If you look at just murders per capita, regardless of weapon, there's a lot of countries on the list with stricter gun laws than the US where people apparently manage to kill each other at a much higher rate using something other than guns.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-cap
ita

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Originally posted by RojBlake:

Actually as I understand it more UK police can carry guns now, because their crime rate jumped, as did Australia...after they banned guns!

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Originally posted by RojBlake:

The US also has a higher level of personal freedom than many Europeean-socialist countries.

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Originally posted by RojBlake:

In the UK as I understand it you are taxed at 100% after a certain amount of money is obtained, which is why many UK actors & writers come to the US.

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Originally posted by RojBlake:

Like a 2 hour lull in activity? Like a half-mile geographic shift in location? If this was indeed the same shooter why the change?

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Originally posted by RojBlake:

If he just wanted to kill people then why not just kill folks in the dorm?

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Originally posted by RojBlake:

Also could someone explain to me how we have a 32 to 15 (18) dead to wounded ratio?

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Originally posted by RojBlake:

I'm not buying the official line on this...it don't smell right.

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Originally posted by Alliethorn7:

Well, why would someone try to rob folk at gunpoint when they can shoot back?

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Originally posted by RojBlake:

The 2nd amendment is about keeping control in the hands of citizens...not government.

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Originally posted by RojBlake:

Most gun control measures work the same way, private security, permits, licences, bodyguards etc. allow monied individuals to violate "weapons resrictions" (even in Europe) while making the poorer classes defenceless.

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Originally posted by RojBlake:

The hypocrisy on the issue inself is so thick you couldn't get a .50 cal BMG round through it.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

If you look at just murders per capita, regardless of weapon, there's a lot of countries on the list with stricter gun laws than the US where people apparently manage to kill each other at a much higher rate using something other than guns.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

While I don't see it as my responsiblity to protect others, I can and will protect myself such as is reasonable and possible from for lack of a better word, baddies.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Believe me, I'd *like* to live in a world where these kind of things don't happen, but as long as we do, I plan to ensure to the best of my ability that they don't happen to ME.

And what's so very wrong with that, then ?

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Originally posted by rue:

You know how you can spot a Canadian in a crowd of USers? They walk with their heads up, looking around with interest. USers OTOH are defensive, furtive folk, used to trying to avoid being a target.

Not ALL places are dangerous hostile little worlds. Some places are quite pacifist, nice places to visit, to work and live, actually. My question is - how does the US get from here to there.

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Originally posted by rue:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/guncrime.htm

Note the Brady Bill was passed in 1993.

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Originally posted by rue:

The other way I could interpret gun bills is this - the laws are too fragmented from state to state and too full of loopholes, giving easy access to anyone with motivation. The house of straw isn't holding up. Maybe one needs a house of brick.

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Originally posted by rue:
When it comes to 'gun laws' I don't think the laws on the books mean much if they're not enforced. Not to shame any particular country, but there are many countries with great laws on the books that have nasty reputations as being extremely corrupt. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781359.html

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So rather than looking at gun laws, it would be more meaningful to correlate per capita number of guns with gun-related homicides. I think it would be VERY useful to be able to pull figures on per capita handguns v gun-related homicides.

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And I thought there was an interesting omission in the charts and that was gun murder v modal income.

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But since we are talking about the US, it stands far above any developed nation in gun-related homicides. What are the factors in the US that make it an elephantine exception to all other developed countries?

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Only allowing bodyguards, etc to carry is actually appropriate. Keep the guns in the hands of the people who are protecting, and try to keep the guns out of the ones trying to do the killing.

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BLACKSBURG, Va. (AP) - The gunman blamed for the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history had previously been accused of stalking two female students at Virginia Tech and had been taken to a mental health facility in 2005 after an acquaintance worried he might be suicidal, police said Wednesday.

Cho Seung-Hui had concerned one woman enough with his calls and e-mail in 2005 that police were called in, said Police Chief Wendell Flinchum.

He said the woman declined to press charges, and neither woman was among the victims of Monday's massacre on the Virginia Tech campus.

During the stalking second incident, also in late 2005, the department received a call from an acquaintance of Cho's who was concerned that he might be suicidal, and Cho was taken to a mental health facility, Flinchum said. About the same time, in fall 2005, Cho's professor informally shared some concerns about the young man's writing but no official report was filed, he said.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

The world is a dangerous place and to pretend otherwise is pure madness, so there's nothing wrong with taking reasonable, rational precautions to mitigate those risks, it's no different than carrying a spare tire in your trunk - it's something you'd rather not need, but the realities of life make it wise to do.

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The US also has a higher level of personal freedom than many Europeean-socialist countries. In the UK as I understand it you are taxed at 100% after a certain amount of money is obtained, which is why many UK actors & writers come to the US.

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From Mark & Cathy - April 16, 2007
www.Trance-Formation.com

Hi ... sadly ... though predictably ... it is major D.C. diversion time again to focus folks away from what Congress and the Executive branch are infighting about today: More $ for the wars being waged against countries that have never done anything against the US.

Below this intro are some direct quotes from our book "ACCESS DENIED"...about a tiny little town in Virginia ... Blacksburg we felt strongly would eventually become "news"!

WHY.... because Blacksburg houses (underground in the side of a local Blacksburg mountain!) the best kept US government's ABOVE TOP SECRET laboratory for developing/applying (as in Cathy's case) such weapons such as human robotic mind control programming.

Ask yourself... "how ironic" that a tiny little town, as disclosed about in ACCESS DENIED in Virginia could HOST the worst school massacre in US history on a day of extreme importance that a so called "showdown between Congress and the Pentagon/Executive Branch" over the war funding and pulling our troops out ... to most likely divert the people's attention away from what is being perpetrated against all of u.s.

PLEASE consider why we entitled this chapter (22) (your) "NEED-TO-KNOW"!

Please, we beg of you ... consider today ... do it now ... strongly recommending our book "ACCESS DENIED For Reasons Of National Security" to everyone on your mailing list as a MUST READ NOW ... as they have a "need-to-know the facts that support why we include such "notable mention" of Blacksburg, Va., population 48,595 minus 31.

From "ACCESS DENIED For Reasons OF National Security" , chapter 22, page 160, 2nd edition

Cathy: What’s DARPA?

Mark: Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency[1]. It’s the most Top Secret special weapons development lab in the world.

Cathy: I’m glad I don’t know about that one.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From "ACCESS DENIED For Reasons OF National Security" , chapter 22, page 161, 2nd edition

Below is the exact recorded dialog between Mark & Cathy while driving to a Washington D.C. speaking engagement.

Mark: You’ve talked about, only not by name. It’s in a sleepy little town in Virginia.

Cathy: Oh, that place, I shuddered. I guess I didn’t Need-to-Know the name when I was there. Isn’t it called Blackbeard or Blackbird or something like that?

Mark: Keep looking until you see a road sign in memory.

Cathy: Blacksburg!

Mark: Yes! I was aware of it when I was couriering file tapes for Ampex. My perception of DARPA is that it holds the key to what is eroding the soul of America- and the world. Everything I know may still be classified.

Cathy: Then I won’t ask you what you saw. I said, aware that laws of Sedition could result in his imprisonment if anyone found out he was talking.

(footnote on page 161) [1] Wear anti-virus firewalls if/when seeking further information online regarding DARPA!

Thank you, for your time to read this and pass it along to everyone you know ... and for your help to reach ones who are not so well informed as you.

Peace,
Mark & Cathy
www.trance-formation.com

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"We need a program of psychosurgery for political control of our society. The purpose is physical control of the mind. Everyone who deviates from the given norm can be surgically mutilated. The individual may think that the most important reality is his own existence, but this is only his personal point of view. This lacks historical perspective. Man does not have the right to develop his own mind. This kind of liberal orientation has great appeal. We must electrically control the brain. Some day armies and generals will be controlled by electrical stimulation of the brain."
-Dr. Jose Delgado, Director of Neuropsychiatry, Yale University Medical School prof and CIA mind control scientist, Congressional Record, No 26, vol 118 February 24th, 1974

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Curriculum Vitae for F.W. Romberg

EDUCATION

Medical School, Fall 2006 Entrance, Details TBD

Postbaccalaureate Prehealth Professions Program Certificate, Occidental College, 2005
Completed 16 semester units of biology and organic chemistry coursework and laboratories in preparation for entrance to medical school
Advisor: Prof. Chris Craney

Masters of Science, Electrical Engineering, California Institute of Technology (Caltech), 2000
Primary coursework and research in high frequency circuits and electromagnetics
Caltech Microelectronics Group, Advisor: Prof. Ali Hajimiri

Bachelors of Science, Electrical Engineering, Virginia Tech, 1995
Mobile and Portable Radio Research Group, Advisor: Prof. Brian Woerner

Experienced Electrical Engineer with Strong Leadership and Mechanical Background is Applying Skills to a Medical Career with a Surgical Specialty

Cognizant Engineer, Planetary Aerobot Testbed (PAT), 1996–97
Responsible for the development of a low-cost communications solution using COTS hardware; provided RF communications for video and flight data links supporting robotic balloon (Aerobot) flights in California and Hawaii that tested possible Mars atmospheric entry technologies

UNITED NATIONS, Baghdad, Iraq
Weapons Inspector, Office of the Special Commission (UNSCOM), 1997
Given my acquired knowledge of the Scud, a former Soviet-made missile modified by Iraq, I volunteered for an overseas assignment for about a six week period in Baghdad, Iraq and various parts of France. I was on loan to the United Nations by the US federal government to provide technical expertise of the four variants of the Scud missile used by Iraq in the Persian Gulf War. My specific purpose was to participate in an international UNSCOM mission to verify the destruction of fuel and oxidizer as claimed by the Iraqi government in connection with the implementation of Section C of the United Nations Security Council resolutions 687 and 715(1991).

CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY (CIA), Langley, Virginia
CITO RF Technologist, Clandestine Information Technology Office, Hardware Systems Team, 1998
Management of RF and analog hardware design tasks were performed to support foreign intelligence operations of interest to national security; extensive fieldwork and foreign travel; tasks were conducted while on a JPL LOA

CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY (CIA), Langley, Virginia
Foreign Military Weapons Analyst, Office of Transnational Issues (OTI), Missile Systems Team, 1997
Three month position as Foreign Military Weapons Analyst; general areas of technical knowledge include liquid propulsion, guidance and control, payloads, missile integration, and flight test systems of specific foreign ballistic missiles; tasks were conducted while on JPL LOA

VIRGINIA POLYTECHNIC AND STATE UNIVERSITY, Blacksburg, Virginia
Undergraduate Student Research Assistant, Mobile and Portable Radio Research Group (MPRG), 1995
Completed an engineering project to design and demonstrate spread spectrum modem capabilities; a complete programmable digital spread spectrum transmitter and receiver was delivered for research use

VIRGINIA POLYTECHNIC AND STATE UNIVERSITY, Blacksburg, Virginia
Undergraduate Student Research Assistant, Satellite Communications Group, 1992-93
Functioned as a student team member to design and deliver earth stations for NASA’s Advanced Communication Technology Satellite (ACTS); responsibilities included performing machining tasks and documenting the design and assembly of the prototype earth station using CADD tools

www.romberg.us/html/Pages/CurriculumVitae.html

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"The single shooter was unusally effective at killing, almost as if he had been trained to do so." --mparent7777

CIA recruiting at Virginia Tech

For the second time this year, the Central Intelligence Agency will be coming to Virginia Tech to recruit students. And for the second time this year, they will be met with protests from students who view the CIA as an immoral organization that engages in torture and murder.

On November 2nd, 2005 the Washington Post published an article entitled “CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons”. The article reported that the CIA has set up a covert network of secret prisons and interrogation centers, known as “black sites”, in several countries around the world, including several democracies in Eastern Europe and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Prisoners at these facilities are held indefinitely and often in isolation, without due process of the law. Moreover, CIA interrogators working at these sites are permitted to use the CIA's approved "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques," some of which are prohibited by the U.N. convention and by U.S. military law. Among the tactics approved for use are "waterboarding", intended to induce in prisoners the idea that they are drowning.

While intelligence officials defend the unrestricted operation of these sites as necessary for the successful defense of the country, it should be noted that both the sites and the suspected practices carried out at them would be illegal if operated within the USA, which is a signatory to the U.N. Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Importantly, the same is true for the democratic host states in Eastern Europe where some of these sites are located.

The 'Teach In' will take place on Thursday, Nov. 17, 5-6.30pm, in Torgerson 3100. The event will feature talks by Virginia Tech instructors and the presentation of a draft letter to President Steger's office, signed by a number of concerned Virginia Tech faculty and students.

The letter will request that Virginia Tech place a moratorium on all CIA activities on Virginia Tech's campus until such time as a thorough and independent investigation certifies that the organization has been thoroughly reformed and no longer engages in practices that contravene international law and basic standards of human rights.

The CIA's scheduled 'career information' session will take place at 7pm in the same location.

Sponsoring campus organizations include: The International Club and Amnesty International at Virginia Tech."

http://blogs.roanoke.com/campuswatch/archives/cia_recruiting.html
www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/1263

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Only allowing bodyguards, etc to carry is actually appropriate. Keep the guns in the hands of the people who are protecting, and try to keep the guns out of the ones trying to do the killing.

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There were 15,000 student on that campus. One was a killer, the rest law abiding citizens. Campus rules don't allow students to have guns on campus, thus there were 15,000 unarmed law abiding citizens and one armed killer.

Now suppose a reasonable gun policy, one that ensured that only folk with clean records and some training could carry and that there was no campus rule banning guns. Even if only half of 1% chose to carry that would leave the killer outnumbered 75-1. Much better odds then before.

It is sad but true that one armed law abiding student or professor could possibly (although not likely) have stopped this killer. But five, ten, fifteen, the more law abiding persons armed the more likely lives are saved.



H

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Originally posted by SignyM:
But if you have to carry a gun, are frightened of 10% of the people you meet, can't go into large parts of the city, lock your doors and windows at night and install a security system... how free are you?

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
This is perception of crime not actual crime statistics themselves. A kid gets shot in London and it's national news, a kid gets shot in Dallas and it's so commonplace that it might come second to a local council meeting on the local newscast.

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Besides these figures are for 2000 when Clinton was still president, before 9/11 and when the economy was better in the US than in Europe. Wonder what it would look like with more modern figures?

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

While I don't see it as my responsiblity to protect others, I can and will protect myself such as is reasonable and possible from for lack of a better word, baddies.

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Sorry for saying so, but I have exactly zero confidence that you can do so without negatively effecting those in your line of fire, innocent or not. Go ahead and protect yourself in whatever way you want. But, as soon as it /is/ going to effect those around you, you have the responsibility to consider them.

As in, you may not have the responsibility to protect them from the danger that you will be protecting yourself from, but you have exactly the responsibility (and duty as a citizen) to protect them from yourself.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Believe me, I'd *like* to live in a world where these kind of things don't happen, but as long as we do, I plan to ensure to the best of my ability that they don't happen to ME.

And what's so very wrong with that, then ?

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That's an easy one given what you've just said. You see, there is no possible way that you can prevent these things from happening to you, period. Don't you see that carrying and using a firearm is /reactionary/. By definition a firearm can _not_ prevent. It can only be used to /react/ to a situation that has already happened!

And if you are as old and in as poor health as you imply, how exactly are you supposed to get "the drop" on someone who is likely to be in better health than you? Not to mention that they'll already be have there gun out and at the ready.

Don't you see that by pulling out your weapon (and possibly firing) your provoking an extremely dangerous reaction in an already dangerous situation? One that is more than just likely to cause people to be killed.

I honestly don't think that you've thought this through at all. Here's a clue. You're not the hero, and you're not going to save the day. You're going to get people killing by making that powder keg go off.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
The problem with this survey is that it's too vague. Did you ask people in cities or people in the country? Did you ask folks on the same day or different times of year? Had there been any event in the area you surveyed before you conducted it.

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I knew a girl in college that would not go out a night during the winter...

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Originally posted by RojBlake:
Actually as I understand it more UK police can carry guns now, because their crime rate jumped, as did Australia...after they banned guns!

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The US also has a higher level of personal freedom than many Europeean-socialist countries.

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In the UK as I understand it you are taxed at 100% after a certain amount of money is obtained, which is why many UK actors & writers come to the US.

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“Your consistently correct attitude and demeanor ensured the ultimate success of this program. Your leadership and perseverance was instrumental in fostering a sense of teamwork and initiative among fellow staff members and airport stakeholders alike. We Protect: Dept of Defense Facilities and Military Installations."
-McNeil Technologies, CIA employer of sister of Korean VA Tech shooter
www.mcneilsecurity.com

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VIDEO: VA TECH SHOOTER GIVES NBC ALL THE PROFITS:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1261402,00.html

VIDEO: PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON-BLYTHE ROCKEFELLER CONFESSES TO US GOVT MIND CONTROL PROGRAMS THAT KILL PEOPLE

Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments (ACHRE)
http://gwis.circ.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/radiation/

ACHRE was created by President Clinton on January 15, 1994 to investigate and report on the use of human beings as subjects of federally funded research.

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Survivor: 'A Stench Of Death In Classroom'

A survivor of the college shootings, Garrett Evans, describes the horrifying moment when Cho Seung-Hui entered the classroom he was in and shot his fellow students. (1 min 38)

Sky News Video
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-1261175,00.html


VIDEO: Charles Mesloh, Professor of Criminology at Florida Gulf Coast University, told NBC 2 News that he was shocked Cho could have killed 32 people with two handguns absent expert training, with a "60% fatality rate, that's unheard of with a 9mm - a 22 is for plinking at cans". Mesloh immediately assumed that Cho must have used a shotgun or an assault rifle. "I'm dumbfounded by the number of people he managed to kill with these weapons," said Mesloh, "The shooter performed like a pro. The only thing I can figure is that he got close to them and he simply executed them."

www.infowars.com/articles/us/va_tech_shooter_was_mind_controlled_assas
sin.htm

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Sister of Virginia gunman belongs to Class of 2004

By Michael Juel-Larsen
Princetonian Senior Writer
April 18, 2007

Though Monday's shootings at Virginia Tech had already cast a shadow over campus, the news yesterday morning that the gunman's older sister is a recent Princeton alumna brought the tragedy even closer to home. Sun-Kyung Cho '04 was an economics major who interned at the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok during the summer before her senior year and wrote briefly for The Daily Princetonian. She now works as a "State Department contractor," The Washington Post reported yesterday, and was listed on Princeton's alumni directory as living in Centreville, Va., with her parents.

www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2007/04/18/news/18129.shtml

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Virginia Tech Shooting: I’ve Already Seen Enough

www.cryptogon.com

I thought that I should designate a single post to all of the Virginia Tech related analysis, to parse out some of the key signals from the noise. Within 30 minutes of actually sitting down to read about the incident, I had already seen enough.

At first, I was looking for—and found—indications of trauma induced mind control.

Let’s look at Sun-Kyung, Cho’s sister:

Cho’s parents live in a townhouse development in Centreville, a suburb of Washington. They own a dry-cleaning shop nearby.

His older sister, Sun-Kyung, graduated from Princeton University in 2004. A source, who asked to be identified as a senior Administration official, said she works for McNeil Technologies, a firm contracted by the State Department to manage reconstruction efforts in Iraq.

Woh. Ok. Stop right there.

What does McNeil Technologies do?
www.mcneilsecurity.com

Oh, the usual black bag intelligence agency cut out kind of stuff… Actually, there’s more here than you can shake a stick at.

The McNeil Technologies Services page lists the following categories: Language Services, Information Management Services, Program Support Services, Security Services, Intelligence Services.

I clicked on Intelligence Services first.

Intelligence Services -> Overview

McNeil’’s Intelligence and Language Center (ILC) provides unmatched expertise in the areas of Intelligence and Language Services. The combination of Intelligence and Language guarantees our clients mission success.

Our services and capabilities include:

* Intelligence Architecture Operations in support of the US Army Training and Doctrine Command (TRADOC).
* Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) which supports the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and other government agencies, and
* HUMINT (Human Intel) operations in support of DIA, or with federal counter Intel outsourcing effort. Our
* Linguist operations, with linguists deployed in various theaters of operations,
* Translation operations which include document and website translation,
* Testing, Training and Research of language and cultural awareness.

Under Intelligence Services -> Key Solutions, we see:

HUMINT Operations:
Classified CONUS and OCONUS support by seasoned Intel professionals.

That means support for intelligence operations inside and outside of the continental United States.

Then we have:

Security Services -> Overview

The Security Center at McNeil Technologies is a dynamic and growing Center providing full spectrum security services.

* It is one of only three competitively-selected providers, and the only Washington-based provider of airport passenger/baggage screening services under Transportation Security Administration’s Screener Partnership Program. McNeil provides service at Greater Rochester International Airport.
* Physical Security which includes Access control, escorts, and Guard services, Electronic systems monitoring, as well as classified mailroom and package inspection.
* Personnel and Logistics Support is provided by MILPO operations
* Program Security consists of arms control and nonproliferation support, treaty vulnerability assessments, and support of Balanced Survivability Assessments
* McNeil Security Inc. – For more information about the McNeil Security subsidiary go to the website at www.mcneilsecurity.com.

Cui bono? Who benefits? At some point in the future, would a company that provides physical security for large organizations benefit from what just happened at Virginia Tech? It’s obviously just a coincidence that the sister of the shooter works for a large provider of these services. Right? A company with more publicly stated connections to U.S. Intelligence than you can shake a stick at… A company that is providing ongoing support to current U.S. Intelligence operations…

Feel free to keep clicking around on that site, if you dare. Intelligence operations. Physical security operations at airports and top secret government facilities. Government document declassification. Handling of information related to weapons of mass destruction… It goes on and on.

I’m not trying to sell you a set of steak knives: But wait, there’s more.

Who/what owns McNeil Technologies?

According to the McNeil Technologies About page:

In July 2004 Veritas Capital acquired McNeil Technologies and its subsidiaries.

Veritas Capital is a private equity investment firm headquartered in New York. Founded in 1992, Veritas’ primary objective is to partner with experienced and entrepreneurial management teams to develop leading companies in their respective markets. As a long-term investor in the defense, aerospace, and government services sectors, Veritas has established a Defense & Aerospace Advisory Council consisting primarily of former high-ranking government and military officials. The Council provides Veritas with insight into industry trends from both a business and policy perspective. Veritas’ principals bring over six decades of collective investing experience through a variety of economic conditions.

With over a $ 1 billion in investments, Veritas is able to offer unprecedented resources to its portfolio companies to help them satisfy their clients’ requirements.

Moving on to Veritas Capital, again, take your pick of what to look at there, but with two board members being associated with the Council on Foreign Relations…

Like I said, I’ve already seen enough.

Is the South Korean Film Oldboy Somehow Related?

I know I said that I’ve already seen enough, but it’s actually difficult to keep up with the rest of the news without bumping into this story.

The New York Times posted a brief story about how Cho appears to be imitating a scene from Oldboy, a 2003 South Korean film. I gathered the appropriate images from Cho’s “multi media manifesto” and Oldboy.

Cho and Oldboy?
If you don’t know what Oldboy is about, you might think pfft!, so what, two Korean dudes with hammers, God damned conspiracy theorists… I’ve never heard of the film before today. What’s it about? See for yourself. The parts about forced drugging, psychological torture and split personalities caught my attention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldboy

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"Mr. Chairman: In my letter to you of July 15, 1977, I reported our recent discovery of seven boxes of documents related to Project MKULTRA, a closely held CIA project conducted from 1953-1964. As you may recall, MKULTRA was an "umbrella project" under which certain sensitive subprojects were funded, involving among other things research on drugs and behavioral modification. During the Rockefeller Commission and Church Committee investigations in 1975, the cryptonym became publicly known when details of the drug-related death of Dr. Frank Olsen were publicized. In 1953 Dr. Olsen, a civilian employee of the Army at Fort Detrick, leaped to his death from a hotel room window in New York City about a week after having unwittingly consumed LSD administered to him as an experiment at a meeting of LSD researchers called by CIA. Most of what was known about the Agency's involvement with behavioral drugs during the investigations in 1975 was contained in a report on Project MKULTRA prepared by the Inspector General's office in 1963. As a result of that report's recommendations, unwitting testing of drugs on U.S. citizens was subsequently discontinued. The MKULTRA-related report was made available to the Church Committee investigators and to the staff of Senator Kennedy's Subcommittee on Health. Until the recent discovery, it was believed that all of the MKULTRA files dealing with behavioral modification had been destroyed in 1973 on the orders of the then retiring Chief of the Office of Technical Service, with the authorization of the DCI, as has been previously reported. Almost all of the people who had had any connection with the aspects of the project which interested Senate investigators in 1975 were no longer with the Agency at that time. Thus, there was little detailed knowledge of the MKULTRA subprojects available to CIA during the Church Committee investigations. The 1963 Inspector General report on MKULTRA made available to both the Church Committee and Senator Kennedy's Subcommittee mentions electro-shock and harassment substances (pp. 4, 16); covert testing on unwitting U.S. citizens (pp. 7, 10-12); the search for new materials through arrangements with specialists in universities, pharmaceutical houses, hospitals, state and federal institutions, and private research organizations (pp. 7, 9); and the fact that the Technical Service Division of CIA had initiated 144 subprojects related to the control of human behavior between 1953-1963 (p. 21)."
-Prepared Statement of Admiral Stansfield Turner, Director of Central Intelligence, U.S. Senate Hearing on MKULTRA, 1973
www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/history/e1950/mkultra/index.htm

"QKHILLTOP was a cryptonym assigned in 1954 to a project to study Chinese Communist brainwashing techniques and to develop interrogation techniques. Most of the early studies are believed to have been conducted by the Cornell University Medical School Human Ecology Study Programs. The effort was absorbed into the MKULTRA program and the QKHILLTOP cryptonym became obsolete."
-U.S. Senate Hearing on MKULTRA, Appendix C, QKHILLTOP DEFINITION, 1973
www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/history/e1950/mkultra/AppendixC.htm

"The concepts involved in manipulating behavior are found by many people both within and outside the Agency [CIA] to be distasteful and unethical. Nevertheless, there have been major accomplishments both in research and operational employment. Over the ten-year life of the program many additional avenues to the control of human behavior have been designated under the MKULTRA charter, including radiation, electro-shock, and harassment substances. Some activities raise questions of legality implicit in the original charter. A final phase of the testing places the rights and interests of US citizens in jeopardy. Technical Services Division initiated a program for covert testing of materials on unwitting US citizens in 1955. TSD has pursued a philosophy of minimum documentation in keeping with the high sensitivity of the projects. Some files contained little or no data at all. There are just two individuals in TSD who have full knowledge of the MKULTRA program, and most of that knowledge is unrecorded."
-MEMORANDUM FOR: Director of Central Intelligence
FROM: CIA Inspector General, NB 108-113, 26 July 1963
www.wanttoknow.info/mindcontrol#_ednref13

"We need a program of psychosurgery for political control of our society. The purpose is physical control of the mind. Everyone who deviates from the given norm can be surgically mutilated. The individual may think that the most important reality is his own existence, but this is only his personal point of view. This lacks historical perspective. Man does not have the right to develop his own mind. This kind of liberal orientation has great appeal. We must electrically control the brain. Some day armies and generals will be controlled by electrical stimulation of the brain."
-Dr. Jose Delgado, Director of Neuropsychiatry, Yale University Medical School prof and CIA mind control scientist, Congressional Record, No 26, vol 118 February 24th, 1974

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

But one thing I really need to point out to you is one damn simple fact you're not taking into account.

YOU. DO. NOT. LIVE. HERE.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Would you reccommend disarmament to someone in Rwanda, because you think they are safe from the nice long distance you are viewing it from ?

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

You've stated your position, fine, I don't agree with you, you don't have to agree with me, and I left it at that, but you still feel some all fired need to press an attack - why ?

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

You might call upon some of the other posters who did discuss the matter reasonably with me instead of making jackass assumptions and see if they agree with your idiotic perception that I am some kind of wacko nut job.

But no, you wanna sling insults cause I won't play your game and listen to you insult me while ignoring most if not all of what I say, well that's too bad, I don't play that game with others around here, and I sure as hell won't play it with you.

I got my position, you got yours, have the damn decency to agree to disagree, and until you live and work in the same places I do, don't be applying your standards to me.

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Originally posted by Sigmanuki:
I was wondering when you'd show up and call me a terrorist. Funny how people like you just ridicule instead of actually addressing the reality of the situation that I bring up.

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Tell me, how exactly is pulling a gun on someone who is already at the ready going to "save the day"? i.e. reality isn't a John Wayne movie.

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And btw, if you read my above posts, you'd know that if I had my say, classes would have been canceled for at least that day i.e. the second shooting wouldn't have happened as the campus would have been evacuated.

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Here's another question for the US'ers here, what does how this situation played out say about the mentality of your society in general. I mean seriously, a shooting occurred and it was perceived so lightly that the day went on as normal when the perp wasn't found?!?!?

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But, don't keep saying that you don't want to discuss and then keep posting.

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