America is raising a bunch of sheep by PirateCat

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

America is raising a bunch of sheep

POSTED BY: PIRATECAT
UPDATED: Thursday, April 19, 2007 08:48
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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:38 AM

Rue: Gotta say it, you go girl!

As you've pointed out, there are many options when it comes to preventing crime against you, not the least of which is de-escalating the situation and/or doing one's best to avoid it in the first place, and yes some times it comes down to a swift and effective defense, convincing them you aren't worth the effort to victimize.

Also, decent security measures and situational awareness are extremely useful in preventing it from coming to that, sure, some can take that to a paranioac level, and some do, but from what you've expressed here, I think we're completely on the same page about it, really.

It really does fall down to what I call the three stage method.
The three priorities of "Situation Management", in order.

A - Avoid it happening in the first place.
B - Get the hell out of dodge.
C - Find cover if possible and call in the cavalry.
D - Defend yourself.

The big problem is that folks for whatever reason seem to assume someone who carries would go straight to D, and that is most certainly not the case.

Had I been there, say on the 3rd/4th floor, the first thing I would have done is look for a window!, I figure my chances of surviving a fall are a lot better than surviving getting shot, believe it.

If the fall looked too dangerous or for whatever reason I couldn't get to a window, I would move towards an exit if possible *away* from the sound of gunfire, using cover and trying to be discreet about it if at all possible - I do not know the layout of the building, but if there were more than one stairwell the option does present itself.

If the shots were coming from between me and the only exit from the building, I would look for good cover and a place to hide, and hope to hell he went somewhere else, having heard a cellphone recording of the shots being fired, I certainly would NOT move to engage, that's crazy and I wouldn't be sanguine of my chances one on one with someone or someones so well armed, oh hell no.

You'll note if you look carefully, that I am *not* one of the people saying that if X percentage of folk were armed they would have dropped this guy, nor suggesting anyone should have drawn and moved to engage, that's just plain flat lunacy, and leads to all manner of idiocy, like would-be defenders shooting each other by mistake, not to mention it's tacticaly foolish because you are giving up a solid defensive position for an aggressive one in an unknown situation - that's just dumb.

If caught out in a classroom with no windows I would have quickly shoved whatever mobile furniture was available in front of the door and taken a position in whatever possible cover was available out of direct line with the door, and hoped to hell the cavalry got off their asses, while if at all possible communicating the approximated location of the shots to a 911 dispatcher so they have at least a best-guess of where the shooter is.

If the perp got to pounding on/shooting through the door - I would just sensibly stay put and out of the line of fire and hope not to catch a richochet if any.

If the perp got *through* the door, or began to batter it down, then and ONLY then, would I draw, and double check the line of fire - and if there were other folk in that line and naught but soft interior walls, I would reholster and grab a chair, cause it's not for me to risk their lives to protect my own.

And at that point, if the perp comes through the door and spots me, and if I have a safe shot, then and only then would it come to that - or alternatively if I had no safe shot, a thrown chair tends to foul up ones aim pretty good, especially followed in with a bum rush, but I am no kung-fu master and wouldn't fancy my chances against an armed perp, even one who's just been clouted by a chair, but sometimes your options are more limited than you would like.

The entire concept is *preventing* it from coming to that, but in the extremely rare case that it does I plan to have something a bit more than faith to go on, and the little piece barely weighs 18oz, barely a little more than one of those leatherman things people carry in case they need a tool handy, so it's not putting myself out to carry it with me.

Ponder for a moment that I am likely to face trouble at times from the extremely disadvantaged point of being seat belted in a vehicle against a potentive perp in the back seat, with no quick escape, also.

Guns are nothing to be afraid of, MORONS with guns are scary.
I beg you to be aware of that distinction.

-Frem

For those that are interested,
It's a Colt .380 Pocketlite that's been redone for concealed everyday carry.
Related links
http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/feb96training.html
http://www.cylinder-slide.com/colt380.shtml

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Frem- Obviously you're not a moron.

Part of the problem is the initial sense of shocked WTF?. It happens when a plane starts to fall out of the sky. When gunfire breaks outs. When a dark figure is standing in your dining room. There is a sense of disbelief. This can't be happening. Young people from nice backgrounds on a quiet campus are not situationally aware. Most prolly didn't even know what "gunfire" sounds like. I think self defense education might help. If you think that someone might jump out at you from the bushes, you learn not to walk next to them or to whistle.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 12:33 PM

SICKDUDE

I would just like to point out that if this country were populated by sheep, cannibalism would be much more common....

"I am your father, Luke. Give in to the Dark Side, you nob!" - Doug McKenzie

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:09 PM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
..."someone tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!"

Fucking A right!...best post of this thread!...simple & to the point. 6 million of my people walked like sheep into the concentration camp gas chambers...never again, not me.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:37 PM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
..."someone tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!"

Fucking A right!...best post of this thread!...simple & to the point. 6 million of my people walked like sheep into the concentration camp gas chambers...never again, not me.

First off, a lot of them didn't know that those were gas chambers, second off there was guns involved, if you are surrounded by people with guns who hate you and they are all saying "get in the building" your choices are quite limited.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:45 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

"Your people"? As opposed to "my people"? I always thought people were just people.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 3:05 PM

ALLIETHORN7

Two things-
ONE, when did this thread go from mourning thirty-two lost souls to pros and cons of gun-control?

TWO, in response to Rue, I think I may have led ye to a misunderstanding. If I did, My apologies. What I am suggesting is giving guns to folk what pass the ruttin' test to have 'em- a history of drunkenness, disorderly, etc..., and your out at first strike. People will always find some way to kill yu- where you said that places had VERY strict anti-gun laws, homocides are still present- problem is, how many of those were because of illegal firearms? Sad truth is, folk are sadistic. They can't pass up such a gorram easy way to get what they want, whether it's money or general mayhem. What I said (Or hope I said) was that guns dispersed in the general public would serve as a deterrent to most folks who may use their guns for any criminal activities- granted, there will be psychopaths who won't give a damn, and yes, they will be a problem. But, gun related activities could drop by a goodly percentage if peope knew that there was a high chance that drawing a gun first will get 'em shot. Sorta like a Mexican Standoff, just a bit. First one what shoots is the first shot, cuz, face it... most folks what have a gun simply can't use 'em. Stupid ass gangbangers tryin' to look cool while shootin' one handed and pullin' up their ruttin' pants with the other...

It ain't somethin' what'll solve every problem. Still, what sane man goes up against several loaded pistols, which are, mind Clear and out in the open. Yes, yes, I know... psychopaths. They're a given; why not prepare for and stop what ya can?

Having fun yet?

-Danny

A Ghost is all that's Left,
Of everything we Swore we Never would Forget,
Tried to bleed the Sickness,
But we drained our Hearts instead,
We are... We are the DEAD!!!!!!!!!!
THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 3:56 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Sad truth is, folk are sadistic."

I keep seeing this posted like it's god's truth. It isn't true. You need to live in a country for a while where this doesn't happen. There are several on the globe.

Homicides happen for all sorts of reasons - extreme poverty, lack of education, societal attitudes and availability of weapons.

But the US is alone in developed nations in its high firearm homicide rate. (The US is 0.0279271 per 1,000, the next highest is Switzerland 0.00534117, the UK a mere 0.00102579.) http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders
-firearms-per-capita

What do YOU think causes this?

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 4:29 PM

SUCCATASH

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
What do YOU think causes this?

http://www.strangefinger.com/america.mpg

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 5:37 PM

PIRATECAT

For Rue, The way you are thinking is not to fight back it didn't work for Va Tech student that's the point of the radio callers and mine who called in. The police were called and luckily the shooter killed himself because the cops did not do didly. The War on Terror has nothing to do with this thread.

For Hippie, Untrained shooters whom so people buy guns and never shoot them right. That is really a stupid remark. Why do cowards always think the bad guy is some special forces trained GI. You remind of the wimpy white people in high school who grabbed my arm when I went to defend myself against a bully. yeh all talk

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 5:54 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

"America is raising a bunch of sheep"

Yep. I've been saying that for years. Funny thing is, sheep don't want to be told they are sheep as they're using their own wool to pull over their own eyes.

EDITED TO ADD: Oh Goody! Another anti-gun thread this has turned into. I'll keep my thoughts to myself this time because I don't feel like getting into it with a bunch of people who believe that our Government will protect us in every situation and guns aren't necessary. That to me seems like a much bigger leap of faith than believing in God, but that's just my opinion.

Fight the good fight Frem.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 6:11 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Piratecat- Rue DOES fight back. Didn't you read her posts?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:00 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Quote:
Originally posted by PirateCat:
For Hippie, Untrained shooters whom so people buy guns and never shoot them right. That is really a stupid remark. Why do cowards always think the bad guy is some special forces trained GI. You remind of the wimpy white people in high school who grabbed my arm when I went to defend myself against a bully. yeh all talk

This from a guy who squirmed out of voicing his opinion after one reply. Why do I find it so difficult to believe you were some sort of tough guy in high school?

I never assumed that this guy was some sort of special forces trained GI or whatever. He didn't have to be. The survivors have said over and over that they assumed the loud banging was construction work. Most people don't recognise gunshots when they hear them. They didn't know what was happening until he marched into their classrooms and started firing. By then it was too late - one door, guy armed to the teeth standing in it, firing at you and at the room in general. You can't "bumrush" someone in that situation. You can't sneak up behind him and take him unawares. Even if someone had been armed they would have had a difficult time of it since he was already firing. It takes time to grab your weapon and aim. Longer if it's in a sholder holster and you're crouched on your stomach trying to avoid getting shot before you can shoot back. Longer still if it's in a bag or napsack and you have to get to the bag and fish it out.

Fred - Are you saying that if a country doesn't allow its citizens to bear arms then those citizens are less free than citizens of countries that do allow them to bear arms? Because, like I said, its illegal to bear arms in Ireland and I know a lot of Irish people who would have serious words with someone who even ~hinted~ they they weren't free. Or unable to defend themselves for that matter.

Banners, avatars and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:53 PM

PIRATECAT

Nobody squirmed out of anything I do agree with the callers. Your eyes and comprehension on reading is sad. But now that I know your a little girl it makes sense. You definitely can't be a man. Its a hippie trait to never fight for anything just whine and personal attacks on who stand up for what is right. I am just glad that I am not a victim in life. You just call 911 when the big bad man threatens ya sure the cops will right on it. In Charlotte ya have to have a permit for a handgun it just amazed me on how many older women where getting one at the sheriff's office. They would ask me what they should buy. Go to shooters the local indoor range and take the safety course then get a feel for what ya need. SW .32 and .38 double actions are great for women gun owners.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:06 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Fred - Are you saying that if a country doesn't allow its citizens to bear arms then those citizens are less free than citizens of countries that do allow them to bear arms? Because, like I said, its illegal to bear arms in Ireland and I know a lot of Irish people who would have serious words with someone who even ~hinted~ they they weren't free. Or unable to defend themselves for that matter.

Ask the Irish their stand on gun control when the Muslims start firebombing their schools and malls. Do you honestly think our founding fathers are full of shit when they said that if we, as citizens of America, ever allow anyone, including our own elected officials, to take away our right to bear arms then we have allowed said entity to strip us of the rest of our rights as well?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:21 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Quote:
Originally posted by PirateCat:
Nobody squirmed out of anything I do agree with the callers. Your eyes and comprehension on reading is sad. But now that I know your a little girl it makes sense. You definitely can't be a man. Its a hippie trait to never fight for anything just whine and personal attacks on who stand up for what is right. I am just glad that I am not a victim in life. You just call 911 when the big bad man threatens ya sure the cops will right on it. In Charlotte ya have to have a permit for a handgun it just amazed me on how many older women where getting one at the sheriff's office. They would ask me what they should buy. Go to shooters the local indoor range and take the safety course then get a feel for what ya need. SW .32 and .38 double actions are great for women gun owners.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - you're a liar. You edited your post after I replied. If you want to keep lying then go ahead. I doubt you're convincing anyone, and it doesn't surprise me that you're refusing to man up and admit what you did. Claiming I read your post wrong is pathetic. Blaming my reading comprehension is laughable, but I'm happy to let the rest of the posters here read your posts and mine and judge for themselves which of us has a better grasp of the English language.

Yes, I'm a woman. It interests me that you assumed I was a man. Of course it must be hard to tell the difference between men and women when you don't know your arse from your elbow.

So in Charlotte you have to have a permit for a gun. Big fat hairy deal. If I'm going to be around people with guns I damn well want to know that they know how to use them. And more importantly, I want to know that they know when not to use them, because in most situations pulling a gun is the very worst thing you can do. If someone has a gun pointed at you, your best bet is to try and talk that person down. If you pull a gun their first instinct is going to be to fire theirs - and theirs is already in their hand and aimed at you.

Obviously, that doesn't count in the situation the students faced at Virginia Tech. Still, I'd like to know that anyone who has a gun is able to hit the guy and won't wind up hitting me instead. A firefight is very, very different to firing at a target in a shooting range.

*edit* 6String - you've obviously forgotten that Ireland's shopping centres were being bombed as little as ten years ago. And we all live with the very real threat that violence could break out again at any time. Guess what? When the pub or shopping centre you're in blows up around you, having a gun at your side doesn't help in the least!

You want everyone in the States to have the right to bear arms? Fine. Go ahead. Good luck to you. Whatever. Don't criticise us for choosing a different path, and don't accuse us of being sheep.

Banners, avatars and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:49 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:

6String - you've obviously forgotten that Ireland's shopping centres were being bombed as little as ten years ago. And we all live with the very real threat that violence could break out again at any time. Guess what? When the pub or shopping centre you're in blows up around you, having a gun at your side doesn't help in the least!

You want everyone in the States to have the right to bear arms? Fine. Go ahead. Good luck to you. Whatever. Don't criticise us for choosing a different path, and don't accuse us of being sheep.

I'm not accusing you of being sheep. I am witnissing the sheep out to pasture and simply commenting on it.

Thank you very much for your permission to preserve the right to bear arms. The NRA, in light of recent events in the world, has done a wonderful job protecting the citizen's rights to bear arms and have even done a damn good job in getting the courts to recognize that the handgun ban in Washington DC is not only counteractive to preventing crime that is spiraling out of control there, but is more importantly in breech of our constitutional rights.

I am not even a gun owner myself. I've never fired a gun, other than a pellet gun I had as a kid. But I recognize that this is our right as citizens of America and that the people who founded this country realized that the only way we would remain free from oppression, even and especially oppression from our own government, is if we preserve this basic right.

There is not a single other right we have that could be preserved if the people don't maintain the right to prevent them from being forcefully taken from them. Ask the Germans (who weren't Nazis) in WWII. Better yet, ask the Chinese.

I'm a pacifist myself. I can see your point, and even sympathize with it, but you need to open your eyes and relize that the world is a scary place and that with budget cuts abound and crime on the rise, there may be a day that there won't be any calvary coming to rescue you when you're in trouble. Even in a primarily white, upper-middle class suburb.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 1:44 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Thank you very much for your permission to preserve the right to bear arms.

You're welcome. Your obedience will be noted and remembered when I become Most High Surpreme Overlord of the Earth.

Quote:

I am not even a gun owner myself. I've never fired a gun, other than a pellet gun I had as a kid. But I recognize that this is our right as citizens of America and that the people who founded this country realized that the only way we would remain free from oppression, even and especially oppression from our own government, is if we preserve this basic right.

There is not a single other right we have that could be preserved if the people don't maintain the right to prevent them from being forcefully taken from them. Ask the Germans (who weren't Nazis) in WWII. Better yet, ask the Chinese.

I'm a pacifist myself. I can see your point, and even sympathize with it, but you need to open your eyes and relize that the world is a scary place and that with budget cuts abound and crime on the rise, there may be a day that there won't be any calvary coming to rescue you when you're in trouble. Even in a primarily white, upper-middle class suburb.

Honestly, I didn't come in here in the first place to argue about gun control. That's for you guys to decide. I just took exception to the idea that Irish people are less free because we're not armed.

Our war of independence took place within living memory. Okay, it's an elderly, cranky, get off my lawn kind of living memory, but it's still living memory. That tends to make you very, very aware that some day you may be asked to take up the fight others did before you. We weren't allowed guns back then, but we got our hands on them anyway because, well, we needed them. Right now we don't. Not in day to day life anyway. And since it makes it a lot less likely that I'll be shot I don't really mind.

Getting back on topic, Piratecat said that America's youth were sheep because none of the kids at the school took down the shooter. I suggested that he be placed in a similar situation to see if his remarks were valid. I'm hearing a lot of comments on a lot of forums from people who are convinced that they would have used their karate chop action to knock the shooter out before he hurt anyone. I just can't help wondering how tough they'd be when the bullets started flying in their direction.

Banners, avatars and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 2:32 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thanks for clearing that up. I think I may have largely misunderstood the point of your posts. Sorry about that. I have a problem with gun control. Like I said, I don't own one, but that's because I have a right to own one and I feel safer living in a country that allows upstanding citizens to possess a firearm. If they ever made them illegal, I would most suredly have one now. I'm actually going to the fireing ranage soon with my brother and his friend. They've been trying to get me to buy a gun for a long time and they laugh at me because they know how passionate I am about gun ownership.

It's more of a preventative thing and if the Irish had them before, they wouldn't have had to resort to acquiring them. I know you know this already, I'm just making an observation. Just like my Karate teacher told me when I was a kid, the reason you learn self defence is to protect yourself and hope you never have to use it.

It's funny, about the whole standing up and fighting this guy thing. Recently, in Chicago, there was a 250 lb. cop who beat the hell out of a 115 lb bartender for cutting him off and nobody lifted a finger to stop him. You may have already seen the video of it. Everyone I know says "I can't belive nobody tried to stop him". I don't know if they knew he was a cop or they were afraid of a man that large in the drunken rage he was in, but they didn't lift a finger.

I've posted in another thread about how I was jumped by 4 guys and stabbed, with a kitchen knife, in the back after trying to stand up for a girl I barely knew and tried to calmly talk certain undesirables out of her parents house. She was having a party and nobody there was of age. Nobody wanted the cops there. During my attemted peaceful talks with the main instigator, she came downstairs and said to him "Get the fuck out of my house nigger", obviously leaving me in a very vulnerable position. Things escalated from there and let's just say I got the beating of my life while more than 30 or 40 guys, including the 3 that I came with, sat around doing nothing.

I'd like to think that if a similar situation were to arise again, I would do the same thing I did then, but I fear next time I might be one of those 30 guys sitting around doing nothing. I thought I was Superman and I'd do good for somebody and all I got was a bleeding back, a broken face, and over $12,000.00 in medical bills for my trouble.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 3:50 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
So in Charlotte you have to have a permit for a gun. Big fat hairy deal. If I'm going to be around people with guns I damn well want to know that they know how to use them. And more importantly, I want to know that they know when not to use them, because in most situations pulling a gun is the very worst thing you can do. If someone has a gun pointed at you, your best bet is to try and talk that person down. If you pull a gun their first instinct is going to be to fire theirs - and theirs is already in their hand and aimed at you.

I believe we're utterly on the same page here, Hippie... more so than you know, I *cringe* whenever I see someone with a firearm, loaded or not, that is poorly trained or unsafe, and I include a few officers of the law in those less-than-august ranks.

It's totally stupid to use a powerful, dangerous tool without a clue or proper safety, be it a circular saw, a lathe, boring machine or pistol, if you are going to use a tool, use it right, use it well, and use it safely.

And yes, if someone has the drop on you and has the cursed thing POINTED at you, drawing is about the stupidest thing in the world to do, this ain't a showdown at high noon and most folk take several seconds to draw and fire.
(See Also: Tueller Drill - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill )
You also GOT to think about what's BEHIND your target, my weapon uses rounds unlikely to punch a hole all the way through someone and still be injurious, but the potential is there, so if he was in the doorway, and this place was laid out like many schools, with the doors to classrooms directly across from each other, there would be a risk to those in *that* classroom and you should check your fire and seek cover in a different line before or rather than engaging.

Quote:
Still, I'd like to know that anyone who has a gun is able to hit the guy and won't wind up hitting me instead. A firefight is very, very different to firing at a target in a shooting range.

Again, same page indeed, mixing a loaded weapon in the hands of an untrained individual is a recipe for outright *disaster* in a 'situation', and I too think anyone who carries one ought to be right serious about the fact and train/practice accordingly.

Jack ?

Been there, done that, although with less injury, attempted when much younger and dumber to prevent what appeared to be attempted rape, and got pounded senseless by the guy AND clawed up by his girlfriend for interrupting their brawl over her fidelity - ouch!

Also, you won't find a Colt around much any more, but if you're willing to carry a real world carry piece instead of something to make one feel all manly, I would highly reccommend a Bersa Thunder .380 Auto as something reliable and effective that you could probably actually afford used - it's a nice piece, very controllable and capable of everyday concealed carry, yet still quite effective for it's purpose.

Just do me the favor of learning proper safety and not actually carrying it till you're fully confident in it's use, ok mano ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 6:25 AM

EVILDINOSAUR

Call me a sheep if you want, but if someone has a gun pointed at me, I'm not fighting him. If I try to rush him or throw a desk at him, he's gonna shoot me, sorry but gun beats desk. I will run, I will hide, I will play dead if I have to. Now sure if an opportunity to take the guy out presents itself, I'll take it, but if i see no such opportunity, I'm protecting myself.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:48 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

It's totally stupid to use a powerful, dangerous tool without a clue or proper safety, be it a circular saw, a lathe, boring machine or pistol, if you are going to use a tool, use it right, use it well, and use it safely.

Sensible enough.

On your page Chrisisall

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