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Originally posted by rue:
SignyM,

I was thinking about expressed v silent anti-Americanism.

If the US should ever need help, to whom would it turn? Let's say China decided to call in it's debt* and the US economy took a dive. Who would help out? Or would you see anti-Americanism in full force as the countries who previously felt inhibited suddenly faced no more repercussions?

My sense is that the US would be swarmed - figuratively speaking - by countries getting in whatever licks they could.

I think that would be the prediction of most people. And that is a tacit acknowledgement that the US isn't envied. B/c if the US were to suddenly become, say, destitute, there would be no more envy and so no more anti-Americanism.


* Not that it's doing that, my understanding is they are actively buying things w/ US dollars as a way to dump dollars

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Fear is a vast oversimplification. You might be able to make the case that some countries have reason to fear us. Syria, North Korea, Iran maybe. But even in those cases, I don’t think fear is as big as motivator as you're making it out to be. Even after Iraq and Afghanistan most countries that pose a threat to the US don’t really expect to be invaded by the US. But most countries don’t pose a threat, like France which has one of the largest anti-American populations? French people don’t fear the US. Neither do Germans or Canadians or the Brits or the Irish. And you will find considerable anti-Americanism in all of these countries. Envy is a better explanation.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Why would western Europe envy the USA? Their standard of living is in many ways higher than ours.

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Originally posted by fredgiblet:
I read a book (I think it was 'Warday') about a post-nuclear war U.S. where the nukes were largely contained to the U.S. and the Soviet Union. The author was of the opinion that the only countries that would stand by us in our hour of need would be Britain and Japan and the rest would ignore us or try to screw with us.

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True, but on balance the US is still more successful

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Can you be specific as to what ways the USA is viewed as "more successful"?

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You see, I find this kind of unexamined statement to be reminiscent of VOA broadcasts.

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I have family in Hungary (one of poorer European nations) I have not heard anyone express envy.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
... whyizzit that of all the major mainland European nations, France is the only one with an independent nuclear weapons program AND which does not have American bases in its soil?

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I was thinking along the lines of economic power and global influence.

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The out-of-control global media (just a right-wing spin machine, obviously) and numerous books and articles (written by quacks, obviously) have this thing about calling the US a superpower. If the uneducated proletariat buys into this preposterous fantasy one could infer that it might view the US as a successful country, perhaps even more successful than their own. If they feel the success is undeserved, they might become envious. Ludicrous, I know, but most of them have dandruff anyway, so what do they know

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Originally posted by SignyM:
What do you mean by "economic power" and "global influence"?

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The VOA broadcasts were actually refering to American standard of living not to global positioning.

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And my Hungarian relatives not only did not express envy, they expressed a certain amount of distaste for the American way of life. Several of the things that shocked them was the number of homeless, the huge difference between rich and poor, the fact that most land is privately owned (They were in some wealthy suburbs. The comment was: "Yeah it's pretty but you can't go on it"), lack of quality food, lack of public tranportation, and the really high number of fat people.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
ETA: I would really appreciate your views about European lack of global influence, and why you think that might chafe.

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I think if you dig down you'll find a surprise.

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Also, please google up French atomic weapons. You will see that they did not get their weapons from the USA but developed their own.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
So they see America as ignorant slobs who have somehow stumbled onto the world stage and it offends their sense of fairness? I think the feeling is a little more pointed than that.

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It's as I said in the other thread- the USA is an elephant in a playground. One wrong step militarily and a lot of people get hurt. And although we no longer make up more than half of the world's economy we still influence it mightily. If you combine our total power with our total unawareness that there really are different people out there that are not Americans- our unconsiousness of others' needs and viewpoints - it will lead to an underlying sense of unease at best in other nations.

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1) I bet the average American couldn't name me America's #1 source of crude oil.

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2) You over-estimate the political acumen of the average European.

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3) A large part of Europe's oil comes from Russia. If we should be fearing someone, it should be Russia, not America.

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4) Even if Europe's oil reserves were to depend on America's whims, that means we should be sucking up to America. Instead, students shout anti-American slogans on the streets and politicians run on anti-American platforms.

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2) You over-estimate the political acumen of the average European.

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I beg to differ. But this will need polls or statistics to demonstrate one way or another

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Russians do not represent the same level of power.

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Due to their straightened circumstances they are not in a position to withold oil from Europe for a long time, altho I know that the supply was shut off due to a contretemps with the Ukraine.

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European power is ascending. They are not strong enough to "take on" the USA but not so weak as to identify completely with the USA either.

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Hence Rue's question about what happens when power changes hands?

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Originally posted by kaneman:
We know we are the star quarterback in a class full of chess players.

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Originally posted by kaneman:

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Originally posted by fredgiblet:
I read a book (I think it was 'Warday') about a post-nuclear war U.S. where the nukes were largely contained to the U.S. and the Soviet Union. The author was of the opinion that the only countries that would stand by us in our hour of need would be Britain and Japan and the rest would ignore us or try to screw with us.

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I would ask the author why he left Israel, Canada, Australia, and The US virgin islands off that list.....

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Some are dismissive of American culture and perceived lack of intellectual standing. Along with this is the fear that America's "Big Mac culture" will spread to their country.

Some don't like the success of America's democratic and capitalist systems, since it marginalizes their concepts of socialist rule by an educated elite of scholars and intellectuals.

Anti-globalization supporters see America as the driving force behind globalization, and as out only for America's benefit.

Some countries resent perceived or actual interference by America in their internal politics and development.

America has been hasty and careless in it's use of power, and anger at this is justified. It was noted in several places that this anger doesn't seem to be expressed as much against other powers, such as China.

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People in other countries don't know any more about American than Americans know about their countries.

People with an anti-American bias see no difference between American liberals and conservatives. They're all lumped together.

There is a difference between disagreement with American policy, which is largely aimed at the American government, and anti-Americanism, which is also aimed at the American people, their perceived culture, and their social institutions.

Some are disappointed that America does not always live up to its own ideals regarding liberty, law, and equality.

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It was noted in several places that this anger doesn't seem to be expressed as much against other powers, such as China.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
While it's possible to create a imminent threat out of nothing (after all, we did it with Saddam)

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Thanks Chris. I meant something even more restricted: an imminent threat to the USA.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, re Noam Chomsky. Sigh, if you're referring to me, it is my misfortune to keep reinventing the wheel. I don't know if that means I'm smarter or stupider than him, but my arguments are all my own.

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Everything in this list revolves around fear: fear of loss of cultural identity, economic viability, or sovereignty;

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Because America has a long history of global interference,

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a current military footprint all over the world and retains its position as the holder of world currency, everyone sees the USA as the driver of unwelcome changes. They fear these changes and their inability to deflect them.

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But the United States is a democracy, as Bush reminds everyone at every opportunity. I think previous to the Iraq invasion most people distinguished between our government and people, but the high approval rating of George Bush and his invasion of Iraq made it obvious that Americans cannot be counted on to prevent government from egregious acts.

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Using the USA as a foil for internal politics only works because we're a relevant target. While it's possible to create a imminent threat out of nothing (after all, we did it with Saddam) it's hard to keep the justification alive very long.

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Anti-Americanism, especially concerning people, culture, and social systems, was prevalent long before Pres. Bush, or even Pres. Bush I. It doesn't depend so much on who's in office.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Here's a question for you history buffs! I don't know the answer so it's not a trick question, but whyizzit that of all the major mainland European nations, France is the only one with an independent nuclear weapons program AND which does not have American bases in its soil?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
If you look back in history, you'll find an "anti" for just about every nation. The French hate the British and the Brits have not had much nice to say in return, the Koreans and Chinese hate the Japanese, and the Arabs hate Israel.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
If you look back in history, you'll find an "anti" for just about every nation. The French hate the British and the Brits have not had much nice to say in return, the Koreans and Chinese hate the Japanese, and the Arabs hate Israel. Focusing on "anti-Americanism" makes it sound like we're the ONLY nation that's ever been disliked and -gosh!- people have been picking on us since whenever!

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I don't think there's anything strange or peculiar about waves of anti-Americanism as they seem to result directly from what we do, and if we were to stop doing what we do the feelign would subside to be more-or-less on par with the usual backbiting and griping that normally goes on between nations.

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Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Everyone loves the Irish!

...except the English.


...and Singate.

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Originally posted by marina:
Thought this article might interest people:

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2007/04/that-ineffable-islamic-threat-t
o.html

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Originally posted by Geezer:
Some might say that the lack of Islamic terrorist attacks in Europe in 2006 was due to the number of Islamic terrorists arrested prior to and during 2006. Also, limiting the discussion to 2006 conveniently takes the London and Madrid subway bombings and the school attack in Beslan, plus several other attacks in Russia and Chechnya, out of play.

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Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Not us! Everyone loves the Irish!

...except the English.


...and Singate.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

-Some don't like the success of America's democratic and capitalist systems, since it marginalizes their concepts of socialist rule by an educated elite of scholars and intellectuals.

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by Geezer:

-Some don't like the success of America's democratic and capitalist systems, since it marginalizes their concepts of socialist rule by an educated elite of scholars and intellectuals.

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This one really jumped out at me. One, why is it bad to have the smart people in charge? I'd much rather than than another Bubba in charge. And how is it worse than our current system of rule by corporations?

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