Things that make you go, hmmmmmmmm by FutureMrsFIllion

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
BUT, heaven help the senior citizens who dare to buy their prescription drugs from Canadian or Mexican pharmacy. That's called un-American!

I work in the medical industry (notice how I no longer call it a profession) and the reason pharmaceutical companies don't want Mexico and Canada involved is exactly what you'd think. The R&D process. First to blame in my eyes, lazy unionized bureucrats from the FDA. Next, Overpaid sales reps from pharmaceutical giants who conduct worldwide tours promoting products with "Sky's the limit" expense and entertainment accounts. Throw in an overpaid CEO, and a demanding board of directors, and you have one expensive R&D process. I haven't named everybody, not by a long shot.

Now, if Canada or Mexico comes along right after the patent runs out for a new drug and produces it cheaply, the pharm industry will tell you they loose money, and woe is me, they'll say they can bearly go on.

I went on a tour of a pharmaceutical distributor about 2 years ago. The parking lot looked like an auto show for expensive imported cars, IE Benz, Lexus, Range Rover, etc. I'm not a communist but that industry needs to be taken down a peg.

And you can't change that by gettn' all bendy.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 5:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
I'm not a communist but that industry needs to be taken down a peg.

Surely you're not sayin' that CEO's and drug reps should be driving lowly Corvettes and Mustangs....

Ostentatious Saturn driver Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 6:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall
Surely you're not sayin' that CEO's and drug reps should be driving lowly Corvettes and Mustangs....

Ahhh yes...can you imagine the horror...I fear that I shall surely languish and die from the very thought....

If you spend all your money on prescriptions because your copays are high, or no coverage at all. Just call Pfizer or Glaxo, ask to talk to sales, then ask whomever answers the phone to come pick you up and give you a ride home cuz you just spent $250 to support thier lifestyle.

And you can't change that by gettn' all bendy.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 7:10 AM

Nancy Reagan said it best: "Just say no to drugs!"

No Drugstore Cowboy Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 7:36 AM

One could always heed the warnings...don't smoke, watch your weight, don't eat eggs and steak everyday for breakfast, don't drink, go exercise more, don't have sex with sluts or homosexuals, if it has a wart on it..don't put it in your mouth, don't eat mosquitoes or your boogers, slow down on sodium and crack, and my favorite...floss daily. This will allow you to be healthier, fitter, and less reliant on big pharma products....but, what fun is that...I mean really, I'd rather bitch and moan when older about needing to buy drugs for Herpes, high cholesterol, cancer, heart disease, anal warts, AIDS, and my favorite...Gingivitis.....Well, just one man's opinion.......

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 7:40 AM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
"Just say no to drugs!"

For many people saying 'no' isn't an option.

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 7:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
don't have sex with sluts or homosexuals

I've had much fun being with (being-?) the first group, and I detect a phobic element with your inclusion of the second.

Just sayin' Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 7:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
For many people saying 'no' isn't an option.

Please excuse my flippant remark; I was going for the funny.

And failed, apparently Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 7:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
don't have sex with sluts or homosexuals
I've had much fun being with (being-?) the first group, and I detect a phobic element with your inclusion of the second.

Just sayin' Chrisisall

Must have missed...."but, what fun is that."....part.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 7:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:

Must have missed...."but, what fun is that."....part.

Hey, diff'rent strokes, my (wo)man!

Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 7:53 AM

WHOOPS

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
don't have sex with sluts or homosexuals

"Where does that get fun?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Love. You can do all the math in the 'Verse, but you take a boat in the air you
don't love, she'll shake you off sure as a turnin' of worlds. Love keeps her in
the air when she oughtta fall down. Tells you she's hurtin' 'fore she keens.
Makes her a home." Mal

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 8:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Whoops:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
don't have sex with sluts or homosexuals

"Where does that get fun?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Love. You can do all the math in the 'Verse, but you take a boat in the air you
don't love, she'll shake you off sure as a turnin' of worlds. Love keeps her in
the air when she oughtta fall down. Tells you she's hurtin' 'fore she keens.
Makes her a home." Mal

Must have missed...."but, what fun is that."....part.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:41 AM

It smells like smoke, eggs, steak, sluts, booze, and homosexuals in here!!!!

We were talking about pharmaceuticals, but now...Oh! It's Kane.....wazzzzup Kane! You are the intelectual equivelant to a food fight. Don't you ever change.

And you can't change that by gettn' all bendy.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:46 AM

Making drugs affordable is anti-capitalist. Whatever the market will bear, remember? A small percentage must die, so that others can be rich.

Snarky Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
It smells like smoke, eggs, steak, sluts, booze, and homosexuals in here!!!!

We were talking about pharmaceuticals, but now...Oh! It's Kane.....wazzzzup Kane! You are the intelectual equivelant to a food fight. Don't you ever change.

And you can't change that by gettn' all bendy.

No. Why change perfection? And, who doesn't enjoy a good food fight? I believe my post was relevant and on topic.....Well, kind of..........

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 10:10 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"First to blame in my eyes, lazy unionized bureucrats from the FDA."

Those bureaucrats don't make policy, the presidential appointee does. The bureaucrats are mere workers, and when the politico boss says ' jump ' they say ' how high, sir ! ' (or ma'am, as the case may be).

I realize memory lasts less than a month, so going back a few years is like charting unknown territory - but does anyone remember when the FDA was truly functional under David Kessler?

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 11:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Those bureaucrats don't make policy, the presidential appointee does. The bureaucrats are mere workers, and when the politico boss says ' jump ' they say ' how high, sir ! ' (or ma'am, as the case may be).

I know for a fact that Medicare workers do not jump at all, it's not in thier union contract. I also know the difference between the FDA and Medicare. But a buddy of mine and I share stories all the time. He has dealings with the FDA, and I...the dread Medicare/MediCal. These people are not helpfull, they are lazy, sarcastic, overpaid, inefficient, nasty, uninformed, and incompetent. Medicare stands alone as the entitiy nobody likes or wants to deal with. Can you imagine if we socialize medicine, every hospital and doctor's office be like that! And then the medical world would suck and you should pray you never get sick. Sorry, now I'm off track AND whinning.

Quote:
I realize memory lasts less than a month, so going back a few years is like charting unknown territory - but does anyone remember when the FDA was truly functional under David Kessler?

Kessler (Sratching head) was in the mid 90's right? He showed promise at first, but the lazy, useless, ignorant, smart ass, overpaid federal workers made his reforms difficult. The government as a whole will never be functional as long as there are labor unions

And you can't change that by gettn' all bendy.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 12:50 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

You can now buy toothpaste with megadoses to Fluoride, the most-electronegative element on the periodic table, and the cancer-causing active ingredient in Prozac. Presumably these are manufactured in Communist China, which has no health standards, and murders all children who are 2nd-born.
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_dollar_stores.htm

Fluoride was added to water at Nazi and Commie death camps, the keep the slaves from wanting to escape, or kill their kidnappers. This deadly scam was first targeted at Africa, which is already being culled by United Nations Corporation and Jew Bill Gates' "vaccination" sterilization and HIV-injection program.
www.aidsbiowar.com
www.boydgraves.com

Now you can buy antifreeze in your toothpaste, and your meds, direct from Communist China, as CNN confessed on TV today:

Quote:

From China to Panama, a Trail of Poisoned Medicine

By Walt Bogdanich and Jake Hooker
The New York Times
Sunday 06 May 2007

The kidneys fail first. Then the central nervous system begins to misfire. Paralysis spreads, making breathing difficult, then often impossible without assistance. In the end, most victims die.

Many of them are children, poisoned at the hands of their unsuspecting parents.

The syrupy poison, diethylene glycol, is an indispensable part of the modern world, an industrial solvent and prime ingredient in some antifreeze.

It is also a killer. And the deaths, if not intentional, are often no accident.

Over the years, the poison has been loaded into all varieties of medicine - cough syrup, fever medication, injectable drugs - a result of counterfeiters who profit by substituting the sweet-tasting solvent for a safe, more expensive syrup, usually glycerin, commonly used in drugs food, toothpaste and other products.

Full text:
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/piratenewsrss/message/315

And now pigs in Commie China are dying by the millions, after staggering around with blood gushing out of all orifices. Enjoy your bacon MacSandwich...

Quote:

Concerns raised on China's global health disclosures

International Herald Tribune
May 7, 2007

The international and Hong Kong authorities said Monday that they had received little information from mainland Chinese officials about a mysterious ailment killing pigs in southeastern China or about Chinese wheat gluten contaminated with plastic scrap, raising questions again about whether Beijing is willing to share data on global health issues.

State-controlled media in China have carried a few reports on the wheat gluten problem but almost nothing on the pig deaths.

Hong Kong media were full of lurid accounts Monday of pigs staggering around with blood pouring from their bodies in Gaoyao and neighboring Yunfu, both in Guangdong Province. Apple, a daily newspaper here, said that up to 80 percent of the pigs had died in the area, that peasants were engaged in panic selling of ailing animals at deep discounts and that pig carcasses were floating down the river.

www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/07/news/pigs.php

Are the ChiComs planning to monopolize the casket market?

Fox News will never report on this, since its Jewish owner, Sir Rupert Murdock Autralian Knight of the British Empire, lives in Communist China with his wife who is a citizen of Commie China, and she is a card-carrying member of the Communist Party. So the Communist Chinese government is legally half owner of Fox News, since individual ownership of property is not allowed under the Communist Manifesto (written in London England by Masonic Jew Karl Marx). By marriage, Sir Rupert is a member of the Communist Party in Communist China.

Murdock's wife attended Yale University, where my sister ran the Chinese student program, commuting to China. I no longer speak to my sister, the trial lawyer who never won a case, when employed by the government as a "public defender". Constitutional Rights are apparently not taught at Yale nor in law schools.

Of course, Commie China has a long history of running cannibal death camps for its slaves, massmurdering nearly 100-million since the British Empire invented Communism in London.

But the US death-camp industrial complex will fight to the death to keep its market share of over 2.5-million murders in USA every year.

Quote:

"The most stunning statistic, however, is that the total number of deaths caused by conventional medicine is an astounding 783,936 per year. Using Leape's 1997 medical and drug error rate would add another 216,000 deaths, for a total of 999,936 deaths annually. It is now evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the US."
—Gary Null, PhD; Carolyn Dean MD, ND; Martin Feldman, MD; Debora Rasio, MD; Dorothy Smith, PhD, Life Extension Magazine, "Death by Medicine", March 2004 (plus 1.5-Million annual aborticides in USA)
www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_awsi_death_01.htm

"After 40 million dead because we have aborted them in this country, I would say that that would be the greatest day in this country's history when that, in fact, is overturned."
-Congressman Tom Tancredo, GOP debate 2007
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18478985/page/7/

But you can cure yourself of kidney failure, get arrested for eating weeds, get hired by the government that arrested you to do the exact same crime every day, then serve David Letterman a weed salad on TV:

VIDEO: THE JEWISH WILDMAN OF NY CITY
www.econetwork.net/~wildmansteve/TV.Pages/TVClips.html

Amerika: Police State Gulag or Loony Bin?

"Son, you're not the first man to piss off a woman and end up stranded on the side of the road. That's why I always take my keys with me when I get out."
-Trucker, Drive

DRIVE BY MIND CONTROL: FREE TV EPISODES ONLINE
OOPS! CANCELLED!!!
www.myspace.com/driveonfox

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
https://video.indymedia.org/en/2007/02/716.shtml
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=8cd2bd0379340120e7a6ed00f2a53ee5
.1044556
www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv

Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 12:56 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

MalBadInLatin

http://www-tech.mit.edu/V116/N62/fda.62w.html

The Washington Post

Kessler said he was stepping down voluntarily after six years as commissioner because he had accomplished his major goals: "We did what we set out to do," he said.

Yet it had become clear to FDA observers that Kessler had become a major target of the anti-regulatory mood in Washington.

Attacked as a glaring example of the overprotective "nanny state," Kessler's FDA has been a target of sweeping regulatory reform efforts.

Quote:
Kessler (Sratching head) was in the mid 90's right? He showed promise at first, but the lazy, useless, ignorant, smart ass, overpaid federal workers made his reforms difficult.
And you can't change that by gettn' all bendy.

Actually, it was the lazy over paid (also corrupt and conniving) repubican members of Congress who wanted to gut the FDA - and did. Mebee you should change your tag to 'never let facts get in the way of an agenda'.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 1:18 PM

"Mebee you should change your tag to 'never let facts get in the way of an agenda'."

The bitch is back.........

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 1:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Actually, it was the lazy over paid (also corrupt and conniving) repubican members of Congress who wanted to gut the FDA - and did. Mebee you should change your tag to 'never let facts get in the way of an agenda'.

Happy!

And you can't change that by gettn' all bendy.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 2:40 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Hmmmmm, do you see what you started.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 8, 2007 3:49 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
Hmmmmm, do you see what you started.

Yup, I surely do.

A. Chrisisalways funny - well it was!

B. I was a federal employee and was neither overpaid nor lazy. I think you will find that the overpaid and lazy people are the ones appointed by the "current administration". New ones every 4 years or so.

C. Some of us who are the working poor, have disease and have lousy healthcare would LOVE for someone to figure out that I can't actually PAY $700 a month for my meds. It is either feed the kids or take the meds. Until then, they can continue to increase the prices and I will just go on disability and live off all of your(meaning society's) tax dollars.

eta: I really, really miss the Navy. Free meds, no co-pay, trully the cadilac of healthcare!

FORSAKEN original

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 2:16 AM

I know a number of federal, state, and local employees. My wife works for a non-partisan office in Congress and I have friends from law school who work for the FDA, military, state attorney, and public defender offices at all levels of government. These people get paid a lot less than they would in private practice, work very long hours, and do it because they are patriotic individuals. My wife has had to stay at work overnight for weeks at a time when things are busy, but she is proud to be one of the faceless bureaucrats who make our government work. If you want to bemoan governmental policies fine, but realize that federal employees (which includes the military) are working very hard in service to this country.

But it is even harded because of policies. The current administration has hobbled regulatory agencies from the FDA to the EPA with tremendous cutbacks in funding and limitations in their scope. Focus on that and not the federal employees, because anyone whinning about federal employees as being over paid and lazy have no clue what they are talking about.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 5:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by KJW:
I know a number of federal, state, and local employees. My wife works for a non-partisan office in Congress and I have friends from law school who work for the FDA, military, state attorney, and public defender offices at all levels of government. These people get paid a lot less than they would in private practice, work very long hours, and do it because they are patriotic individuals.

I apologize for my rash statement which gave the impression that all gov't workers are lazy etc. I experience frustration with medicare (lazy unionized idiots) on a daily basis and I was on a rant, I am sorry for any offense related to my going too far.

Quote:
My wife has had to stay at work overnight for weeks at a time when things are busy, but she is proud to be one of the faceless bureaucrats who make our government work. If you want to bemoan governmental policies fine, but realize that federal employees (which includes the military) are working very hard in service to this country.

No fair mentioning the military...I didn't...and they are NOT unionized, and you're right, they do work exceptionally hard

Quote:
But it is even harded because of policies. The current administration has hobbled regulatory agencies from the FDA to the EPA with tremendous cutbacks in funding and limitations in their scope. Focus on that and not the federal employees, because anyone whinning about federal employees as being over paid and lazy have no clue what they are talking about.

The point I didn't make very well is how I have observed a consistant lack of quality work from medicare employees. I don't mean to bad mouth the EPA, your friends from law school, your wife, and the others you pointed out. Once again, I violated my own code by letting the emotions I had that day cloud my judgement, that was very republican-like. Anyway...I have relatives who work for the State of California. The fact is, they have way better benefits than private industry usually offers, way more days off per year, can't be fired (cuz of the union), and that's why everyone wants to work for the state. They do not at all resemble your "proud to be one of the faceless bureaucrats who make our government work" folks

You can take me apart all you want for my unwisely chosen words, but logic would tell us that the truth lies somewhere between your rosey characterization of unionized federal employees, and my demonization of SOME of them

And you can't change that by gettn' all bendy.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 5:25 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

KANEMAN and PIRATENEWS, the webs very own Pinky and The Brain. I'll let you all decide which one is which.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 6:58 AM

You know what the problem is? Its the same in the private and public sectors and that is the manager-divide. We have all seen it, how a good manager can make everyone more effective and a poor manager can make everyone less effective. I have been an employee and a manager and can say that while there are certainly problem employees...the bigger problem is with poor managers. A good manager can work with anything, a bad manager can drive a business or agency to the ground even if it has the best employees.

Unions aren't the problem. Legally, unions are pretty weak and have been since the 80s, but they provide employees with a voice and set up a situation where the employer and employee haggle over working conditions. Unions provide a more experienced and healthy workforce and no competent employer is going to give unions any concessions that will undermine the company. Unions don't close factories, unions don't cause drops in profits, incompetence by management causes that. A good manager just deals with the union, a bad manager blames his failures on the union.

Seriously, has anyone here had consistently good managers? I doubt it, I sure haven't. Mind you I have had a few brilliant managers, but the number of idiots is about the same and most fall in the middle. You solve this problem and you solve a lot of problems.

How do you do it? Education, training, competent oversight, plenty of support (mentoring programs), instilling a sense of personal responsibility, and creating good working conditions (of which unions can be quite helpful).

Now if a government agency is out of favor with the current administration (such as Medicare, VA, EPA, FDA, and the like with the Bush administration) or the current administration lacks quality leadership then this is just not going to happen. The same is true of businesses.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 7:55 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"The fact is, they have way better benefits than private industry usually offers, way more days off per year, can't be fired (cuz of the union), and that's why everyone wants to work for the state. They do not at all resemble your "proud to be one of the faceless bureaucrats who make our government work" folks."

Uhm ... private employees would get way better benefits if they would unionize more. Why do you begrudge the unionized their benefits instead of saying to yourself - damn! maybe I should be unionized and get that, too !

Also, it's not true that you 'can’t fire' someone who's in the union. As a union steward we've had people fired. Just because it can't be capricious and arbitrary doesn't mean it can't happen.

The heyday of the working middle class - the mid 50's to mid 60's - was also the heyday of unions. As unions started to decline in private industry, so did benefits. But even with that you still owe a lot to unions today. Unions got the 40 hour work-week and other important safety items, benefits and work rules.

So unions aren’t the issue, just your perception of them.

I agree that managers, and even higher, are the biggest determinant of how a place functions. King-Drew (county hospital) is one example of the worst. But the culture of corruption and incompetence comes all the way from the top. OTOH the mega-county hospital I used to work at was an example of the best - hard work and competence by dedicated, and unionized, professionals.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 8:08 AM

Absolutely, problems above managers telescope down at the lower levels. I also agree, anyone who complains about union benefits should unionize themselves to get the benefits.

We have an example of the manager-divide with our kids. Our son is in 1st grade at one elementary school and our daughter is in K at another elementary school. Both are public schools (our daughter is in a French Immersion program) in the same county (which has an excellent school system).

My son's school has a brilliant principal, vice principal, and excellent support staff (encouraged by the principal and vice principal). We have 100% confidence in this school as they are responsive and are really dedicated to providing quality education to all of their kids.

My daughter's school has a new principal and vice principal and a mediocre support staff (disconnected from the new leadership). We have far less confidence in this school as they are not responsive, more than a little disorganized, and the leadership is honestly overwhelmed. Still this school has some cool stuff a French immersion program, a number of neat events, and all that, but the poor leadership at the top is so obvious to us with our son in another elementary school.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
As a union steward.

That explains alot about your pro union stance. I wish you hadn't wrote that. Is it possible for you to be objective? It's a yes or no question. Say yes and I'll believe you

Quote:
So unions aren’t the issue, just your perception of them.

Probably, but I've never seen anything but corruption nepotism, etc etc from the unions I've observed. These unions are: The Longshoreman, Boeing Machinists, Whatever union Medicare workers belong to, and the California State Workers.

And you can't change that by gettn' all bendy.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 11:27 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Yes, I am objective about unions. I've worked in both types of places. The unionized are by far the better places to work in terms of basic fairness. Out of my very long work-life (spanning too many decades for me to want to tell) I've only been a steward over the last 8 years. That's long enough to negotiate three contracts and handle many grievances and disciplinary appeals. Our union prides itself on not filing frivolous grievances or supporting unjust causes. But having sat across from management and watching their machinations parade in front of me, I can understand how, in a very specific way, unionized people fare better than non-unionized.

As for your observations, I can't address them as I've never seen it. Perhaps the unions I've belonged to are either too large to be manipulated that way, or too small to be of interest.

As for poor work performance, as I said before, I don't attribute that to unions, but inept management. (As I have been made proud to work in several unionized places and ashamed to work in some non-unionized ones.)

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 11:34 AM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
As for poor work performance, as I said before, I don't attribute that to unions, but inept management. (As I have been made proud to work in several unionized places and ashamed to work in some non-unionized ones.)

Just thought I'd comment on this, I was contracting at a paper mill a little while ago and I forget how it came up, but there was some guys sitting around not working and I mentioned the possibility of getting fired, their response was "Oh we won't get fired, this is a union job".

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 11:36 AM

FREDGIBLET

I suppose I'll also mention that my dad used to manage union workers, and he says that he frequently had underperforming workers that he couldn't do anything about because they didn't want to do their jobs but the union wouldn't let him fire them.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 3:20 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

You'll find protected under-performers everywhere, and not just in union jobs. Why else do you think non-unionized places have the rep that the only way to get ahead is to seriously kiss ass?

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Our union prides itself on not filing frivolous grievances or supporting unjust causes.

Based on that alone, your union is not like the CA state workers, Boeing Machinists, or the Longshoreman. So maybe I'm just hearing for the first time about a functional labor union. I'm going to make a guess...the Nurses union?...don't acknowlege if that's too personal

Quote:
But having sat across from management and watching their machinations parade in front of me, I can understand how, in a very specific way, unionized people fare better than non-unionized.

Being in management has an insidious dark side that can creep up around you. They are under intense pressure and vulnerable to all the trappings of power we humans often don't handle well. So you have a point. Be that as it may... someone still has to be the Manager

Quote:
As for poor work performance, as I said before, I don't attribute that to unions, but inept management. (As I have been made proud to work in several unionized places and ashamed to work in some non-unionized ones.

Looks like Management will probably continue to blame Unions, and visa versa. I guess it all comes down to which side of the table you're on.

Sorry to all for the diversion into Union Vs Non Union, I think we were talking about whether or not folks should be buying pharmaceuticals from Mexico and Canada.

And you can't change that by gettn' all bendy.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, May 10, 2007 7:05 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Oh, not too personal - it's a small professioanl union of engineers and scientists, has a few hundred members. Though I did belong to CSEA way back when when I worked at a county hospital - another union where a person I worked with was fired for good cause btw. That's what I meant by unions either too small or too large. I've been in both and neither was corrupt.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, May 10, 2007 7:12 AM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
You'll find protected under-performers everywhere, and not just in union jobs. Why else do you think non-unionized places have the rep that the only way to get ahead is to seriously kiss ass?

Granted, but in a union job you don't even need to kiss ass to be protected, it's automatic.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, May 10, 2007 7:27 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Uhmmm - not in the unions I've been in.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, May 10, 2007 8:28 AM

The firing issue is something that is negotiated between the employer and the unions and there is always a mechanism for firing. The only employees legally protected from firing are those employees who are trying to unionize or are union leaders and they are only protected if the firing is in response to their union activities not if for cause. The law is pretty clear and employers can fire employees for cause. Sure they may have a greater process to go through than employers of non-union employees but they can fire people. The non-firing issue is a misconception of the law and reality.

If you have a situation where an employer honestly 'can't' fire an problem employee it is either laziness or more likely apathy as they don't want to bother with the process. It costs money and time to train a new employee and this is the main reason employers don't fire problem employees. If you need an warm body to work and if the only warm body is problematic then you still use him. The union excuse is used, but it has no basis in reality.

Personally, I have never worked in a union environment and my opinions on this are from studying labor law (both sides) in law school and other academic studies from college. My years as menial labor and management where in a non-union settings and the employees could have used unions.

The basic premise of labor law in the U.S. is that unions represent the employees and the employer represents himself and they negotiate for what is best for both parties. Sure there may be a problem employee or two, but you have healthier and better paid employees in a union situation. Plus you have less turnover, which is an advantage for businesses as you don't have to train new people which is also an annoyance. I am pro-union, mainly because the reality is very positive for employees as without unions you have to rely on the goodwill of the employer which is always suspect.

Still that said the negative misconceptions of unions, combined with the loss of many legal rights, has caused unions to diminish in the U.S. Sure you have some exceptions like SEIU, but for the most parts unions are in decline...and the gap in pay between executives and their employees continues to grow.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, May 10, 2007 9:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by KJW:
without unions you have to rely on the goodwill of the employer which is always suspect.

Not always, I work for a great employer, we were in the top 25 of the Fortune Magazine's 100 best companies to work for in the US for 2006. We are paid well, have great benefits, and we are fiancially rewarded on an individual level, based only on individual performance. If you perform better than your co-workers, you should make more than them doing the same job. Can Unions provide that incentive? That's a question I don't know the answer to, not a "Uinons can't do that" statement. So what's your experience?

And you can't change that by gettn' all bendy.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, May 10, 2007 10:25 AM