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Now you've heard today a lot of people say that there are many little things that you all can do today to avert climate change on your own. But I will tell you this, it is more important than buying compact fluorescent light bulbs or than buying a fuel efficient automobile. The most important thing you can do is to get involved in the political process and get rid of all of these rotten politicians that we have in Washington D.C. who are nothing more than corporate toadies for companies like Exxon and Southern Company, these villainous companies that consistently put their private financial interest ahead of American interest and ahead of the interest of all of humanity. This is treason and we need to start treating them now as traitors.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Yeah, Robert, the real issue here for you is POLITICS, not saving the planet. There's no question as to which side of the political aisel you're trying to recruit. The far, FAR Left.
Yes, PRIVATE companies are doing what they're suppose to do , make money for their shareholders. That's not an evil thing, by any means. But you calling folks 'traitors', now that's something old grand dad Joe would probably love to hear. After all, he was a big supporter of Adolph Hitler. And boy howdy , we know how Hitler treated traitors, don't we ? So, who are you going to line up, Robert, and murder first ? Will it be the board members? Or will it be some the thousands and thousands of share holders across the country, who used their own money to buy stock in these 'villanious' companies, so they'd be able to retire with something more than a promise of government cheese and a shiny bowl for their daily ration of soup.

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Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
"May the curse of the Kennedy's continue to wreck havoc on you and your loved ones."




although not surprised

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
[ activity that lends moral support and encouragement to the enemy,

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Like I said, even-handedness seems a foreign concpet to som....

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Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
activity that lends moral support and encouragement to the enemy,

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Oh Bullshit! The "enemy" needs no encouragement.

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Originally posted by rue:
You see fit to libel anyone who is a liberal. Remember this ?

"The only thing that concerns me about this bet is that with your socialist leanings, you'll never be worth that much to make the pay off! "

Speaking of fair-minded people, you fit the description quite nicely.

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Actually I have defended the patriotism of Liberals, even as I recognize that the enemy is comforted by the attitudes of many on the Left in this country. One of the standing problems is the ability to dissent over a war without encouraging the enemy. A lot of the criticism that comes from the Left is not responsible enough to warrant the damage it does in supporting the enemy. Accompanying that is the principally Left-wing attitude that patriotism is some throwback off fascism, so there is actually an argument to be made for the lack of patriotism of some Liberals, if for no other reason then that many Liberals willingly choose not to be patriotic.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
For me, patriotism means watching our government to make sure it is REALLY representing the people, and doing so effectively. What does patriotism mean to you?

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I have found Mr. Kennedy to be a total jackass

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fredgiblet wrote:
Wednesday, July 11, 2007 14:07
Rap, I'm interested in knowing how this explains why the left is "so dangerous". Turning issues like this into political leverage is an old tradition on both sides of the aisle. The left uses the environment and civil liberties, the right uses moral outrages how is this any worse than anything that's been going on on both sides for decades?

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"... these villainous companies that consistently put their private financial interest ahead of American interest"

Gasoline price gouging be damned ! That doesn't count !

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"... and ahead of the interest of all of humanity."

Yeah ! No problem with burning it up as fast as we can !

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"This is treason and we need to start treating them now as traitors."

After all, price fixing, writing public legislation, war profiteering - that's just good old American business !

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Well this seem like a red herring to avoid responding to Kennedy’s fruitcakey comments but I didn’t really expect an answer anyway.

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Your description of patriotism is a convenient excuse to be critical of a government run by an administration you don’t agree with, more then it is a love for your country, I suspect. A lot of people use patriotism as an excuse to attack the government. There isn’t anything wrong with being vigilant to preserve a liberal government (in fact I would say that it is incumbent upon us to be a free people), but that’s not necessarily patriotism. It’s probably better described as republicanism. You could argue that one could be a republican because they are patriotic, but I don’t think you can define patriotism as republicanism.

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Patriotism is love for one’s country. It has nothing specifically to do with the government. You can love your country even if you live out in the woods away from any government involvement, or even if your government is an oppressive regime.

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Patriotism is the glue that holds us together as a nation. .. We must be American to be a country, and in order for us to be American we must want to be American.

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We must love our country. We must have a desire for our country to be successful, a single unifying idea that leads us forward as a people. We are an extremely diverse people and we are very proud of our individuality, and these things can be strength, but they are also a recipe for conflict and disagreement. Patriotism is an ideal that gives us a sense of unity, a sense of nationality, something that we can agree on, even if we agree on nothing else.

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Originally posted by rue:
I bet you believed the tobacco exces when they said it wasn't addictive.

Anyway, I have things to do. I'd stay and chat but ... maybe someone else will have the patience.

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Except there's no price fixing, equal writing of public legislation by the Sierra Club and little if ANY war profiteering....... you have no case

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Halliburton, Vice President Dick Cheney’s former company, has a no-bid monopoly contract with the Army Corps of Engineers that is now estimated to be worth $10 billion. In June 2005, Pentagon contracting officer Bunny Greenhouse told a congressional committee that the agreement was the “most blatant and improper contracting abuse” that she had ever witnessed, a frank assessment that subsequently earned her a demotion.

... KBR or Kellogg, Brown and Root, the Halliburton subsidiary that has been the focus of congressional, Department of Defense, and General Accountability Office investigations. Defense Contract Audit Agency auditors have questioned Halliburton’s charges on a $1.6 billion fuel contract, claiming that the overcharges on the contract exceed $200 million. In one instance, the company charged the Army more than $27 million to transport $82,000 worth of fuel from Kuwait to Iraq. Halliburton has also been accused of billing the Army for 42,000 daily meals for soldiers, though it was only actually serving 14,000. In another operation, KBR purchased fleets of Mercedes trucks at $85,000 each to re-supply U.S. troops. The trucks carried no spare parts or even extra tires for the grueling high-speed run across the Kuwaiti and Iraqi deserts. When the trucks broke down on the highway, they were abandoned and destroyed rather than repaired.

Responding to complaints, Halliburton refused to permit independent auditing and inspected itself using so-called “Tiger Teams.” One such team stayed at the five-star Kuwait Kempinski Hotel while it was doing its audit, running up a bill of more than $1 million that was passed on to U.S. taxpayers.

Another U.S. firm well connected to the Bush White House, Custer Battles, has provided security services to the coalition, receiving $11 million in Iraqi funds including $4 million in cash in a sole-source contract to supply security at Baghdad International Airport. The company had never provided airport security before receiving the contract. It also received a $21 million no-bid contract to provide security for the exchange of Iraqi currency. It has been alleged that much of the currency “replaced” by Custer Battles has never been accounted for. The company also allegedly took over abandoned Iraqi-owned forklifts at the airport, repainted them, and then leased them back to the airport authority through a company set up in the Cayman Islands. Custer Battles reportedly set up a number of shell companies in offshore tax havens in Lebanon, Cyprus, and the Cayman Islands to handle the cash flow.

Two former company managers turned whistleblowers have charged that the company defrauded the U.S. government of at least $50 million.

... Another American contractor, CACI International, which was involved in the Abu Ghraib interrogations, was accused by the GAO in April 2004 of having failed to keep records on hours of work that it was billing for and of routinely upgrading employee job descriptions so that more could be charged per employee per hour.

... The GAO report also confirms that many private security contractors in Iraq have been charging the U.S. government exorbitant fees for their services, frequently because the contracts allow security costs to be rolled into the overall cost of the contract without being itemized. In one case, contract security guards were effectively being billed at $33,000 per guard per month while the average rate for a security specialist worked out to between $13,000 and $20,000 per month.
... An audit of one region disclosed that 80 percent of the funds could not be accounted for, and more that $7 million in cash was missing.... In one reported instance, an American contracting officer doubled the price of a multimillion-dollar contract and brazenly explained that the extra money would be for his retirement fund.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by rue:
I bet you believed the tobacco exces when they said it wasn't addictive.

Anyway, I have things to do. I'd stay and chat but ... maybe someone else will have the patience.

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Don't try to side step the issue by bringing up tobacco. Totally irrelevant. You can't respond because you can't find where 'Big Oil' has been caught fixing gas prices. So instead of admitting you're flat wrong, you run away while throwing up a smoke screen ( pun intended )

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's a reason I posted Mr Kennedy's comments, and highlighted specific parts. Kennedy goes well beyond simple politicing,

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and makes the remarkably reckless charge that legal, tax paying companies doing exactly what they're suppose to do in a free society, turn a profit, are some how 'traitors'. So now capitalism is a high crime ?

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No where on the Right has there been anywhere near the talk of outlawing such talk and punishment dealt out for expressing one's view.

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Furthermore, Kennedy goes on to state that they should be "treated like traitors" . To the best of my knowledge, a sentence of death is only once brought up in the Constitution, and that's for the high crime of treason. * You may check me on that, I'm not sure *. But the question is,what else can it mean when you're told to treat a person like a traitor ?

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SignyM wrote:
Thursday, July 12, 2007 00:50

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Except there's no price fixing, equal writing of public legislation by the Sierra Club and little if ANY war profiteering....... you have no case

Auraptor, you must have your tinfoil hat on backwards or something because I think the current government has somehow gotten control of your mind! Not sure if there is price "fixing" but there is certainly price gouging going on. For example, while the price of gasoline goes up and down with the spot price of oil, American refining companies are unaffected by the spot price because they're all on long-term contracts.

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I suspect you are an astute observer of gasoline prices.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
You mean the seemingly endless string of "accidents" that do no, or surprisingly little harm while conveniently excusing hefty price bumps ?

I been watching THAT pattern for 12 years now, Rue - like that "Oh, no, prices won't rise this summer unless something horrible happens, you know, like a refinery fire..."

And less than a week later ?
Refinery fire, no injuries, no damage, no product loss, by supposedly a handy lightning strike hitting a tank (which any IDIOT knows is fully grounded or you couldn't load/unload it safely).

Yeah, sure.

Do a little homework.

-F

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Deluded ramblings look far better in German. :)

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