REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Call to Arms for People who believe we can win this war.

POSTED BY: MALBADINLATIN
UPDATED: Monday, August 6, 2007 05:33
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 8799
PAGE 1 of 3

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:51 PM

MALBADINLATIN


If you are ages 18-30....And you're in favor of the war in Iraq, you have a moral obligation to enlist right now. And don't give me any of that stuff about the family you just started, plenty of our boys have given thier lives and had infants at home. People are dying right now because of your convictions....doesn't that affect you at all? Don't tell me that's not the only way to serve your country...It IS the only thing your country desperatly needs from you right now. You keep saying your country is in such peril from the people our brave boys face in the streets of Baghdad!.....Why are you pro war young people still sitting while people fight, suffer, and die in your stead.

Pro War Young People...go save Iraq yourself!


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:18 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


*FMF pushes the snack trolly into this thread*

If I wait here they will come


---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:23 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


One of the great things about 'our' freedom is the fact that anyone can mouth off about anything and not have to back it up. But don't let me derail this very thought provoking thread, carry on as you were.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:23 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
If you are ages 18-30....And you're in favor of the war in Iraq, you have a moral obligation to enlist right now. And don't give me any of that stuff about the family you just started, plenty of our boys have given thier lives and had infants at home. People are dying right now because of your convictions....doesn't that affect you at all? Don't tell me that's not the only way to serve your country...It IS the only thing your country desperatly needs from you right now. You keep saying your country is in such peril from the people our brave boys face in the streets of Baghdad!.....Why are you pro war young people still sitting while people fight, suffer, and die in your stead.

Pro War Young People...go save Iraq yourself!




What makes you think that's not happening now already?

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:27 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


How about you Rap ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 4:02 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
How about you Rap ?




How about me what ? Give any credence to this silly thread? Naw....I think not.


People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 4:02 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Double


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 5:49 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Sign me up! Proud to be another cog in the murder machine.

Nevermind.... I'm already funding it.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:15 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
How about you Rap ?


Back off Rue, Rap's a comfort addict. He's attending Comfort Anomymous to help him go to Iraq. And Iran.

Believer Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:19 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

What makes you think that's not happening now already?


Ummm...numbers. Statistics don't lie, just like the ones that say we're making a positive difference in the average Iraqi's life right now.

The last angry Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:37 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Wow, you really had to walk a few blocks out of your way to avoid that one. So I'll be explicit, since I want an answer. Rap - since you are all for the war in Iraq, why don't you go fight there?
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
How about you Rap ?
Originally posted by AURaptor:
How about me what ? Give any credence to this silly thread? Naw....I think not.



***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 12:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh BTW the age of service (at least for the Army) is 18-45. It's not too late Rap! You too, Hero, Bigdamnnobody, Skywalken, and Jongsstraw! Unless you've got some really good excuse- like, you're blind- your next post should be from basic training.

---------------------------------
Cowards and hypocrites.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 6:26 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh BTW the age of service (at least for the Army) is 18-45. It's not too late Rap! You too, Hero, Bigdamnnobody, Skywalken, and Jongsstraw! Unless you've got some really good excuse- like, you're blind- your next post should be from basic training.


Signy, there's believing, and then there's believing. These peeps believe in the war like Bush believes in God. Like in, as long as it doesn't inconvenience them. Here we see the bulls**t most plainly. There is no answer to these posts they can make that won't make them sound like cowards or hypocrites.
It's worth OTHERS dying for. Yep. Effue too.

Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 7:21 AM

MALBADINLATIN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh BTW the age of service (at least for the Army) is 18-45. It's not too late Rap! You too, Hero, Bigdamnnobody, Skywalken, and Jongsstraw! Unless you've got some really good excuse- like, you're blind- your next post should be from basic training.


Signy, there's believing, and then there's believing. These peeps believe in the war like Bush believes in God. Like in, as long as it doesn't inconvenience them. Here we see the bulls**t most plainly. There is no answer to these posts they can make that won't make them sound like cowards or hypocrites.
It's worth OTHERS dying for. Yep. Effue too.

Chrisisall


My work is done here...only one thing....where did all the pro war people go?


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 7:27 AM

MALBADINLATIN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
How about me what ? Give any credence to this silly thread? Naw....I think not.


Enlist now Rap!!!

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 7:43 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
If you are ages 18-30....And you're in favor of the war in Iraq, you have a moral obligation to enlist right now.


Actually my moral obligation is to vote my conscience for candidates who support my position. Then to live with the consequences of my decision.

As a citizen my obligation is to perform my job to the best of my ability, obey the laws of the land, pay my taxes, and exercise my franchise...but thats true war or no war.

As a Browns fan I have a moral obligation to buy tickets if I can or watch them on TV when I can't buy tickets. I've got them for three games so far and plan to buy them for at least three more. Go Browns!

But the last thing they need is some out of shape lawyer hitting the front lines with a rifle in one hand and the Ohio Rules of Criminal Procedure in the other.

I guess my point is this, if a person does not immediatly enlist do you feel that makes their contribution less important or their support less heartfelt? I believe a hundred million or so Americans would have disagreed with you back during WW2.

We also serve who stay behind (and prosecute people for speeding and DUIs...aka PirateNews).

H


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 8:37 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
My work is done here...only one thing....where did all the pro war people go?


We have jobs. Got paid last Friday. Am planning on buying a new computer and paying for my expensive vacation. About a third of my check went to buy ammunition and flak vests for the boys in Iraq...none went to the National Endowment for the Arts, thats were your money goes if you oppose the war.

H

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 8:42 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh BTW the age of service (at least for the Army) is 18-45. It's not too late Rap! You too, Hero, Bigdamnnobody, Skywalken, and Jongsstraw! Unless you've got some really good excuse- like, you're blind- your next post should be from basic training.

---------------------------------
Cowards and hypocrites.




I don't know how you have time to post from all your humanitarian work in Africa, not to mention all that peacekeeping work you do? I mean you BELIEVE in that stuff right? So you must be posting via your Peace Corp account via satelite from Africa right?

Maybe that's too hot for you, I understand, I won't trouble you again you're probably tired from feeding folks at the homeless shelter?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 8:54 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I don't know what you're talking about. We're talking abut life and death. Specifically, people who want other people to die for a cause they themselves (theoretically) believe in. It's not about the money, or the time, or effort.

***************************************************************
Revolution - what revolution ? We'll just hire Hessians too.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 9:14 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I don't know what you're talking about. We're talking abut life and death. Specifically, people who want other people to die for a cause they themselves (theoretically) believe in. It's not about the money, or the time, or effort.

***************************************************************
Revolution - what revolution ? We'll just hire Hessians too.



I disagree. Surely money, time and effort are all worth less than a life? Yet my guess is that very few of you are actually willing to do even that for the causes you "believe" in.

But ok if you want to play the dire danger card I'll play. I'm sure you believe in law and order, so you're a cop right? You expect someone to risk their lives rescuing you from a fire so obviously you yourself are a volenteer firefighter?

No?

So you have no problem expecting these folks to die in your defence but you yourself dont join up. Coward, hypocrite.




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 9:30 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


You're sure I believe in 'law and order' ? You must have been reading someone else's posts all along.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 9:38 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
very few of you are actually willing to do even that for the causes you "believe" in.

But ok if you want to play the dire danger card I'll play. I'm sure you believe in law and order, so you're a cop right? You expect someone to risk their lives rescuing you from a fire so obviously you yourself are a volenteer firefighter?
No?
So you have no problem expecting these folks to die in your defence but you yourself dont join up. Coward, hypocrite.


Great points!
I'm sure they also want & expect :
Clean water?....go work for the water company
Sewage removal?...go work at a waste treatment plant
Child's education?...become a substitute teacher or tutor
Good roads?....go out and pave some
Electricity?......go fly a kite with a key on the end hooked up to your schvance
Disaster Relief ( ala Katrina )...what'd you do?
Their's is an absurd argument, as always.



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 9:46 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


The other problem I have with it is that things like education, clean water, even 'law and order' are considered necessities. There's no argument about whether or not it should be done, though the how might be debated.

Iraq OTOH was entirely optional. So it's appropriate to test the sincerity of its proponents. Optional for who, exactly ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 9:49 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


And now that I have a (very few) minutes - FWIW Fletch my priorities are my family, my job and the environment. So it's a good thing my job is the environment.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 9:55 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
And now that I have a (very few) minutes - FWIW Fletch my priorities are my family, my job and the environment. So it's a good thing my job is the environment.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."



So when your house burns down you don't care about people turning up to try and save your family?

This is important to me. My brother is a fireman which means that he's paid to risk his life to save strangers. None of the people he has to save are worth as much to me as he is and I have no real stake in any of them. If I was of a narrow frame of mind I could argue that saving any one of them is "optional."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 10:01 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Boy are you being stupid today. Where did I say I didn't care ? I just listed the top three.

And, BTW, what does this have to do with asking people to walk their talk when it comes to entirely the optional killing and dying of Iraq ? Not that you'd try to derail a discussion when you had nothing valid to add or anything ....

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 10:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Idon't know how you have time to post from all your humanitarian work in Africa, not to mention all that peacekeeping work you do? I mean you BELIEVE in that stuff right? So you must be posting via your Peace Corp account via satelite from Africa right?

Maybe that's too hot for you, I understand, I won't trouble you again you're probably tired from feeding folks at the homeless shelter?

God, now THAT'S a stupid argument! I'm not forcing people, or even encouraging people, to do those things. What I believe in, I do. What they believe in, they do. But I DON'T make others do it for me.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 10:13 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:


Iraq OTOH was entirely optional. So it's appropriate to test the sincerity of its proponents. Optional for who, exactly ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."



The operative part there is "IMHO" ie "in your opinion" since last time I checked your opinion doesnt determine the military or foreign policy of the United States this question is moot.

If you are completely honest all wars are "optional" even the war against Japan could have been dodged if you really wanted. You could have taken the 2000 odd casualties and ceeded the Pacific to the Empire of Japan. Surely 2000 dead was better than the 100's of thousands finally killed? The country as a whole via it's elected representatives decides which wars to fight without reference to the opinion of the infallable Rue. They do this though a professional military who are hired, trained and paid with a view to using them to fight wars, just like the fire department hires firefighters with the view to fighting fires. It is a job for which people are paid in the expectations that some risk might be involved like many other jobs as far ranging as cops and high steel workers.

I work in a high building, I do not work high steel though in theory people risked their lives (and perhaps died) to create the building I use. I expect safe streets and I pay people to risk their lives to make that happen. That does not mean I strap on a gun myself.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 10:16 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Idon't know how you have time to post from all your humanitarian work in Africa, not to mention all that peacekeeping work you do? I mean you BELIEVE in that stuff right? So you must be posting via your Peace Corp account via satelite from Africa right?

Maybe that's too hot for you, I understand, I won't trouble you again you're probably tired from feeding folks at the homeless shelter?

God, now THAT'S a stupid argument! I'm not forcing people, or even encouraging people, to do those things. What I believe in, I do. What they believe in, they do. But I DON'T make others do it for me.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.



The point is that you dont go and do them yourself. Your dumb idea is that if you believe in something put up or shut up but you dont put up yourself for the things you believe in.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 10:26 AM

MALBADINLATIN


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
We have jobs. Got paid last Friday. Am planning on buying a new computer and paying for my expensive vacation. About a third of my check went to buy ammunition and flak vests for the boys in Iraq...none went to the National Endowment for the Arts, thats were your money goes if you oppose the war.


My post did not address how our rights and responsibilities as citizens overlap with our obligation to fight in Iraq. If you are in the age range of enlisting, AND if you are in favor of the war, you should go without making excuses...unless that's too great a sacrifice!If you're not willing to go shoot at terrorists yourself, you should'nt be so quick to send people to thier possible deaths, thats....whaddya call it....hypocritical, or oppulent (sort of)

It doesn't matter if you're out of shape Hero, boot camp will change that. Don't even start to compare yourself with Rosie the Riveter either, there was a labor shortage then. So....I restate...Your war effort doesn't need you to pay taxes and have Sunday BBQ's as much as it needs you to man-up and fight for our boys. Something tells me there are lots of our fighting men over there that DO NOT support the war like you do, even though they say they do, or maybe they've done 3 tours!, and would gladly let you take thier place.

Tell me....if you were drafted...would that change your opinion about keeping this tragic war going?

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 11:46 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Wow, you really had to walk a few blocks out of your way to avoid that one. So I'll be explicit, since I want an answer. Rap - since you are all for the war in Iraq, why don't you go fight there?
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
How about you Rap ?
Originally posted by AURaptor:
How about me what ? Give any credence to this silly thread? Naw....I think not.






My reasons are my own. By your logic, I can't root for an football team unless I sign up and play football. I can't listen to music unless I can sing or play an instruemnt. This petty tactic of trying to shame folks into signing up for an entire life style just so you can claim some imaginary moral high ground is as phoney as it gets.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 12:40 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Actually, I'll make the suggestion to you a third time, Hero.

Private contractor forces over there are in rather desperate need of some form of J.A.G. type services, to keep things orderly and limit potential legal and other liabilities, and given your experience, you would qualify for the work, probably at a substantial pay bump, too.

There goes your excuse.

Me, I'm old, slow, half-blind and in poor health, but if I really, truly *believe* in something, I go to it and get personally involved, but I'm crazy like that.

If you don't qualify for military enlistment, you could always work for Haliburton/KBR/Blackwater/etc, I hear the money's good and no one gives a damn if you shoot the locals, since you folks seem to hate anyone who ain't american anyways.

But please, continue to bleat pathetically, your inventive excuses are amusing.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

P.S. Pearl Harbor - go read the fekkin history, the truth of that one's finally come out too, it wasn't a surprise, and the Gov deliberately and maliciously provoked it via an eight step program designed to cause exactly that while hanging our personnel out to dry so that they'd have an excuse to get us involved in WWII to the profit of their imperial agenda and corporate friends in spite of american sentiment against it.
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408
"7 Oct 1940 - Navy IQ analyst McCollum wrote an 8 point memo on how to force Japan into war with US. Beginning the next day FDR began to put them into effect and all 8 were eventually accomplished."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 1:11 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Fletch and Rap,

Both of you appeared to have breezed past my earlier response just to repeat a meaningless argument. Though Fletch tried to divert the point by saying 'all wars are optional'. Maybe he should talk to the few remaining Polish soldiers who fought when Germany rolled over their country. There is such a thing as fighting for survival.

Iraq was not a fight for survival, not even close.

It was concocted in what I think of as the perfect storm of mendacity. PNAC got their ME opportunity, Halliburton got billions of tax $$$$ for nothing, oil interests if nothing else blocked France and Russian development contracts, the rapturites who apparently don't trust god's inscrutable timetable want to make it all happen, there were no WMD (poink poink poink Rap ), there were no links between 9/11 and Iraq ... and on and on and on.

So, if I may repeat myself since you both missed it the first time "things like education, clean water, even 'law and order' are considered necessities. There's no argument about whether or not it should be done, though the how might be debated.

Iraq OTOH was entirely optional. So it's appropriate to test the sincerity of its proponents. Optional for who, exactly ?

And, BTW, what does this have to do with asking people to walk their talk when it comes to entirely the optional killing and dying of Iraq ? Not that you'd try to derail a discussion when you had nothing valid to add or anything ...."


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 1:52 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Fletch and Rap,

Both of you appeared to have breezed past my earlier response just to repeat a meaningless argument. Though Fletch tried to divert the point by saying 'all wars are optional'. Maybe he should talk to the few remaining Polish soldiers who fought when Germany rolled over their country. There is such a thing as fighting for survival.




I agree, wars of genocide are not optional wars. However I would argue that most wars America has fought have not been for survival and COULD by your definition be considered optional. I would even say that the American people thought that too, we could have really used your help in Sept 1939 when the Poles you talk so elequently about were fighting for their survival. You decided that war was "optional" until Dec 41.

The point is that you could have ignored Pearl Harbor, or made peace with Japan rather than risk more American lives over teritory that was not the US mainland. I'm sure that had FDR offered to end hostilities as long as Japan did not attack Hawaii the Japanese would have accepted. How many young Americans would have lived in that case?

I'm not saying it's the right thing to do but any time a country sends troops to defend anywhere that is not part of it's contiguous territory that decision is "optional." Imperial Japan could not have defeated the USA and occupied the mainland. In that context the War in teh Pacific was not one of survival and by your definition "optional."



Quote:



It was concocted in what I think of as the perfect storm of mendacity. PNAC got their ME opportunity, Halliburton got billions of tax $$$$ for nothing, oil interests if nothing else blocked France and Russian development contracts, the rapturites who apparently don't trust god's inscrutable timetable want to make it all happen, there were no WMD (poink poink poink Rap ), there were no links between 9/11 and Iraq ... and on and on and on.




And who knows you may be right. Pity the party you support didn't make even a token showing of opposition, pity most of the American people supported the action. Guess they didn't care what you thought, boy do they look foolish now. You should crow some more and tell us what you think....


Oh you are... carry on.

Quote:



So, if I may repeat myself since you both missed it the first time "things like education, clean water, even 'law and order' are considered necessities. There's no argument about whether or not it should be done, though the how might be debated.

Iraq OTOH was entirely optional. So it's appropriate to test the sincerity of its proponents. Optional for who, exactly ?




See my comments on US optional wars. So who decides a war is optional Rue? Do you do that with what we have established is your infallability? Or do we leave that to our elected representatives who punted rather than you know, do what they are paid for? I would argue you don't get to decide, but assuming you do you going to draft the majority of Americans who thought it was a good idea in 2003? Or is this what we know it is passive agressive posturing from someone who simply doesnt count and whose opinions don't actually have any more import than any of us.

Rue likes welfare, say since she likes it why doesnt she pay triple, put her cash where her mouth is.

See we can all have the same kind of dumb ideas.


Quote:



And, BTW, what does this have to do with asking people to walk their talk when it comes to entirely the optional killing and dying of Iraq ? Not that you'd try to derail a discussion when you had nothing valid to add or anything ...."


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."




You don't accept what we say is valid because your argument is bogus. I guess you probably are against starvation in Africa but I dont see you out there doing something about it. Dont see you with a rifle defending refugees in Darfur either but I bet you believe the genocide is terrible.

When Obama sends US troops to Pakistan that won't be an "optional" war just like Kosovo wasn't....

Now if you want to talk about the unequal burden put on servicemen and their families compared to the average Joe, we can talk, if you want to discuss the extension rules that keep folks in the military when they should now be civilians we can talk. If you want to talk about inadiquate funding of care for wounded and traumatised veterans we can talk, but you won't because that doesnt allow you to preach from what you think is a point of moral superiority.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 2:21 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

It was concocted in what I think of as the perfect storm of mendacity. PNAC got their ME opportunity, Halliburton got billions of tax $$$$ for nothing, oil interests if nothing else blocked France and Russian development contracts, the rapturites who apparently don't trust god's inscrutable timetable want to make it all happen, there were no WMD (poink poink poink Rap ), there were no links between 9/11 and Iraq ... and on and on and on.



You and I see things entirely differently. This has far less to do w/ PNAC , Haliburton or rapturites. And yes, there were WMD.

It's pointless to deny that, the debate is over.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 2:52 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Mal, Rue, Signy, Chris
How do you feel about the American forces in Afghanistan?

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 3:35 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I sense a diversion coming on ....

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 3:57 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


fLetch,

Seriously, your answer makes no sense.

You add in stupid requirements (it can't just be an attack ANY territory like Hawaii or Alaska to be war, it has to be contiguous territory ! Or maybe Alaska would be an exception b/c though all non-contiguous territory is equal, some is more equal than others !)

You seem to blame "my" party - which was out of power - for the war, rather than the repubicans in power who cooked the intel and lied their asses off to everyone ... (not sure why you seem to think I shouldn't crow - I knew the war was bogus from day 1 and said so, so I was right, unlike you.)

"See my comments on US optional wars ...
See we can all have the same kind of dumb ideas." This is rather sadly scrmabled, I'm not sure what your point is, really. Care to rephrase ?

"You don't accept what we say is valid because your argument is bogus." So you say.

"Now if you want to talk about the unequal burden put on servicemen ... but you won't because that doesnt allow you to preach from what you think is a point of moral superiority." Actually, no. I'd love to talk about it. It just wasn't the topic of the thread.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 4:03 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Rap,

"You and I see things entirely differently. This has far less to do w/ PNAC , Haliburton or rapturites. And yes, there were WMD.

It's pointless to deny that, the debate is over."

I used to wonder how you could post these sort of things. But since SignyM uncovered your phenomenal ability to dismiss your senses, science, logic, and most of history, now I know how you manage. So now I don't even consider debating you anymore. You are in your own little folly which is pretty much disconnected from reality. You're not truamatized by 9/11, you've got bigger problems.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 4:04 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Letch,



I accept your surrender. You have a pattern Rue, the moment you give yout your childish "pet" names and start your ten year old stampy foot pouting is the moment you tend to realise your position is unsupportable.

We're done here.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 4:09 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Went back and corrected it when I noticed. It's not a word that spell-checks so I tend to gloss over those.

Shhesh, anything to avoid the topic it seems ...

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 4:19 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


BTW, this is a sampling of your pattern:

"I don't know how you have time to post from all your humanitarian work in Africa ..."
ad hominem

"my guess is that very few of you are actually willing to do even that for the causes you "believe" in"
ad hominem

”I'm sure you believe in law and order"
not even sure what this one is, aside from a complete misunderstanding of everything I've ever posted

"So when your house burns down you don't care about people turning up to try and save your family?"
and yet another one

"If you are completely honest"
ad hominem

"all wars are "optional""
not true

"contiguous territory"
sigh ... not sure what this one is either, except it's you backing down from your mistake

"You should crow some more and tell us what you think.... Oh you are... carry on."
ad hominem

--------------------------------------------
What I see is YOUR pattern of unending slagging, none of which actually addresses the topic. Then you have the nerve to get bent all out of shape over a simple typo. And, scince you were so twisted over the typo when I left the "f" off, I can delightedly reply "f" to your name.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 5:13 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Rap,

"You and I see things entirely differently. This has far less to do w/ PNAC , Haliburton or rapturites. And yes, there were WMD.

It's pointless to deny that, the debate is over."

I used to wonder how you could post these sort of things. But since SignyM uncovered your phenomenal ability to dismiss your senses, science, logic, and most of history, now I know how you manage. So now I don't even consider debating you anymore. You are in your own little folly which is pretty much disconnected from reality. You're not truamatized by 9/11, you've got bigger problems.



So, when someone doesn't agree w/ you, you accuse them of dismissing their senses, science, logic and most of history? How quaint. Never a specific challenge to anything in particular with you, is it ? Naw..it's far easier to dismiss all your worries, out of hand, than to wallow on those pesky details and face facts, huh?

It's my recognition of science, history and logic which simply has you at odds, and unable to respond w/ any sort of coherent, mature reply. I get that. I really do. I'd just wish you'd be more honest about it with yourself and everyone else here. But we all know about wishes and horses, huh?

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 5:21 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"a specific challenge to anything in particular with you, is it ?"

I spent many posts quoting speeches, the Senate Report, and any number of factual data to inform your opinions, which you just ignored. I'm not going to bother this time.

"It's my recognition of science, history and logic ..." OMG, you are seriously delusional. Out of curiosity, did you make it through high school earth science, chemistry, biology and physics ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 5:33 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Mal, Rue, Signy, Chris
How do you feel about the American forces in Afghanistan?

BDN, this is the ONLY valid question that has come out here. I was wrong; I said the only posts made in response would expose cowardice or hypocracy- I was wrong. Effin' stupidity and avoidance...that's what I'm seein. At least you asked a related question.

Afghanistan is a decision I could back, and we had (HAD!!!!) enough troops to deal with the Taliban in a timely fashion with minimal losses. My physical participation was not necessary.
Iraq, OTOH, is taking a great toll for nothing much, and peeps that don't get killed there just spend years there due to insufficient numbers to relieve them. They shouldn't be there.
You can't support both the war AND the troops.
I support the troops and want an end to this war of ours.
Others support this war. They should be fighting it.



Another pre-emptive effue from Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 6:18 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Afghanistan is a decision I could back, and we had (HAD!!!!) enough troops to deal with the Taliban in a timely fashion with minimal losses. My physical participation was not necessary.


In your humble opinion.
Quote:


Iraq, OTOH, is taking a great toll for nothing much, and peeps that don't get killed there just spend years there due to insufficient numbers to relieve them. They shouldn't be there.


But they are there and most are in agreement that up and leaving could be more ruinous. I hope the troops in Iraq believe they are there for a very good reason, to help stabilize that country and end the violence.
Quote:


You can't support both the war AND the troops.


Please expound.
Quote:


I support the troops and want an end to this war of ours.
Others support this war. They should be fighting it.


In your humble opinion.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 6:47 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

In your humble opinion.

No, in my considered opinion.
Quote:


But they are there and most are in agreement that up and leaving could be more ruinous. I hope the troops in Iraq believe they are there for a very good reason, to help stabilize that country and end the violence.

*muffled sardonic laugh*
Quote:



"You can't support both the war AND the troops."
Please expound.

The war is a loss. Troops there will be also. To support a loss of idea is fine and dandy. To back that up with a loss of life is not. Pro-war directly = feed the troops into the physical and psychological grinder for a dumb idea. That is NOT supporting the troops. That's USING them. That IS supporting the war.
End expound-y.
Quote:


In your humble opinion.

No, in my emotional, pissed-off opinion.

GRRRRChrisisall

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 7:24 PM

FREMDFIRMA


It's always bullshit, it's always BEEN bullshit.

From "Remember the Maine"
To
The Gulf of Tonkin non-"Incident"
To
"Fight them over there so we don't fight em here"
To
Niger, Yellowcake, and "Mushroom Clouds", it's always, always been bullshit.

And it's always been for the same reasons, just ask Smedley Butler.

I would lay good odds that if the very FIRST thing we did in a war was nationalise the related industries and force them to run at-cost, rather than at a profit - our record of military intervention from 1890 to present would be zilch, zip, and nada.

As for Osama, he's been dead since approx December 2001 of kidney failure, somewhere on the Paki border, so it's rather pointless to go chasing him now, unless you wanna hire The Ghostbusters or something.
(And I wouldn't put THAT past those psycho lunatics at DARPA...)

But yeah, just keep incompetently sawing down the legs of that table called Iraq, but do it on your own fuckin dime, right-O ?

And send your own goddamn friends, if you have any, cause mine are runnin kinda thin these days..

Oh, and while you're at it, try and think me up a good way to explain to his wife that SGLI didn't cover him cause he got yoinked in from IRR and didn't get the chance to update the paperwork before they sent him into the hot zone....



-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 11:02 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"a specific challenge to anything in particular with you, is it ?"

I spent many posts quoting speeches, the Senate Report, and any number of factual data to inform your opinions, which you just ignored. I'm not going to bother this time.

"It's my recognition of science, history and logic ..." OMG, you are seriously delusional. Out of curiosity, did you make it through high school earth science, chemistry, biology and physics ?




Spent many a post, have you? Well why don't you offer up an example which shows my lack of....oh, that 's right. You don't want to bother. Ok.

I made it through both HS and college level science courses, where required, including biology, meteorology, and geology. Why do you ask?

When you have a point, please, feel free to share it.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, August 1, 2007 11:23 PM

FLETCH2


This is fast and dirty, because it's 3AM and I'm tired.



Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
BTW, this is a sampling of your pattern:




Before we get to that let's talk your pattern.

It goes something like this.

1) start an argument

2) Lay down the word according to Rue in grand general terms.

3) Start to lose an argument, which you always do because reality and the wonderfull world of Rue never do line up quite as nicely as you would like.

4) On discovering that you are losing deny the oposition the privilage of being able to argue in the same general terms that you do. Nit-pick their argument to death, after all it's better to nit pick the fine detail of sneaker production lines than to allow your oponent to make a general point.

The semi amusing thing is that Peter Cook used to do a comedy routine based on the same idea, where he would ask clarification of every minute detail of a joke another person was trying to tell him. When Peter did it it was funny, when you do it it gets old fast.

Casual has figured a way around it. He's basically locked you into a theological discussion so arcane that you have hardly any idea what he's talking about. Therefore you are afraid to nit-pick in the fear of looking stupid. That is incidentally why you are losing so badly, you cant desend into the minutary to try and sidetrack your losing argument.


Now back to your point.

Quote:




"I don't know how you have time to post from all your humanitarian work in Africa ..."
ad hominem




Actually sarcasm, what you usually do to deflate someone pressing a "holyier than thou" viewpoint.


Quote:




"my guess is that very few of you are actually willing to do even that for the causes you "believe" in"
ad hominem




See above

Quote:



”I'm sure you believe in law and order"
not even sure what this one is, aside from a complete misunderstanding of everything I've ever posted




Actually no I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I had thought that if some ahole was terrorising families in your neighborhood you'd want the police to you know... stop them maybe? After all it's ok to be "right on" about being against "the pigs" until they are the ones keeping folks from murdering your family.

If I got that wrong, if your political leanings are such that you think it's cool to let murderers and rapists run wild in your neighbourhood then consider the statement retracted. Wouldn't want to misrepresent anyone, that's Sigies job.


Quote:





"So when your house burns down you don't care about people turning up to try and save your family?"
and yet another one




try exasperation.

Quote:



"If you are completely honest"
ad hominem




Figure of speech

Quote:



"all wars are "optional""
not true




see bellow

Quote:



"contiguous territory"
sigh ... not sure what this one is either, except it's you backing down from your mistake




Actually removing amunition because the next thing you would do is argue that an attack on Hawaii is an attack on the United States, which would in turn be a nit pick to avoid the point.


Quote:



"You should crow some more and tell us what you think.... Oh you are... carry on."
ad hominem




Glad to see you go0t one right.

F- I think :)

Ok because we have Miss Nit Pick we will go through this argument one step at a time in painfull detail (to head off nit picker Rue we acknowledge in advance that all statements given are summerized for brevity rather than cut and pasted from 30 odd posts. It's late, I have to be up early tomorrow and I dont give a toss. Deal


1) The openner: "If you guys believe in this war so much you should be out in Bagdad with an M16.... If you dont you are a coward/hypocrite"

2) The reply is in 2 parts

a) The military is a job like any number of other equally dangerous jobs. Believing the job needs to be done is not the same as being obligated to do the job yourself. If it were then we would all be cops/ firefighters etc because most people accept that like the military these jobs are potentially dangerous but need to be done.

The fact that nobody insists that believing you should be saved from a house fire obligates you to join the volunteer fire service illistrates that the "grab an M16 and ship out" idea is bogus.

b) There are things people general agree are bad. World hunger, genocide etc. If the position given in argument 1) was universally applied then the people that believed these things were bad would be obligated to immediately rush to the affected areas and render personal assistance. However the fact is that few people do this and the fact that nobody expects people to do it suggest the statement in 1) is bogus. Further the fact that folks that weep for Darfor and then do not ship out to Suddan/pick up an AK and defend a refuge camp are not considered "cowards and hypocrites" suggest that statement 1 is political baiting rather than a statement of principle.

3) The rebuttal: "well we all agree that police/fire etc has to be done so that isn't the same. Iraq is an optional war."

4) The response in 3 parts.

a) If everyone agrees that policing/fire etc has to be done then doesnt that just mean that there are more people obligated to sign up to do them? Seems to be a disconnect there.

b) Who decides that a war is "optional?" Since the decision is made by congress on behalf of the people of the United States, the best that can be said (as Rue did in fact) is that in Rue's OPINION it's optional. Obviously this opinion was not shared by Congress in 2003 most all of which punted the issue rather than look bad by voting against what was at the time a popular war. The military goes where the American people as a whole wants them to go, and fights wars on their behalf. Rue's opinion as to if they are optional or not is not enshrined in the constitution. It is important though because if Rue believes it's optional you are apparently required to pick up an M16 and head to Bagdad if you believe in it. Important distinction that.

c) Any war is an optional war. This I agree was an overly broad statement because wars of genocide are very obviously not optional. However that aside almost any kind of war is optional. Faced with agression you can pay tribute, ceed territory or institute policy changes to appease your enemy. War is a terrible thing and he doesnt want to fight it any more than you do, if he can get his way without fighting he will. Wars happen when one side demands what the other is unwilling or unable to give. As such with the exception of wars of genocide where nothing short of your distruction will appease the enemy all wars are optional.

5) Rebuttal: "Not all Wars are optional what about wars of survival."

6) Perhaps it would have better been said that MOST wars are optional.

However, let's think on this a moment. Rues argument seems to be that there are "wars of survival" and there are "optional wars." Being a European I can go though a long history of wars of survival I'm sure a Frenchman has 3 times that number in his history. The in the case of the US however not including the war of 1776 I cant think of a single war where the continued survival of the United States was in any doubt. If you look at the big 3 mechanised wars, the US Civil War, WW1 and WW2 they are almost completely optional. The Union could have left the Confederacy alone, there was no attack on US territory to bring the US into WW1 and as stated if the US had sued for peace with Japan the japanese government would have probably accepted. There was a case for dealing with Hitler because it could be argued that eventually the third Reich would ahve had a nuclear bomb and the missiles to carry it to US soil. However even then the Cold War shows that the distance from the US to a hostile Europe and a strong defence could have prevented a "hot war."

I'm not saying that the US was wrong in these instances. But if the Rue doctrine is that a war is only legitimate if it is for "survival" few if any US wars would be anything but "optional."

Anyway in my view the analysis given above shows the premise of the original statement is bogus. It places an expectation on someone to prove their "belief through action" in a way that greatly exceeds what most normal people expect and what would be expected of others that support similar causes. As such it is political baiting designed to slander those with an oposite viewpoint rather than discuss the merits or flaws of their argument. It is the geopolitical equivalent of "when did you stop beating your wife."





NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Sun, November 24, 2024 09:50 - 7496 posts
The Islamic Way Of War
Sun, November 24, 2024 08:51 - 41 posts
Favourite Novels Of All Time?
Sun, November 24, 2024 08:40 - 44 posts
Russia to quit International Space Station
Sun, November 24, 2024 08:05 - 10 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Sun, November 24, 2024 08:03 - 946 posts
Russia should never interfere in any other nation's internal politics, meanwhile the USA and IMF is helping kill Venezuela
Sun, November 24, 2024 07:48 - 103 posts
Japanese Culture, S.Korea movies are now outselling American entertainment products
Sun, November 24, 2024 07:24 - 51 posts
The parallel internet is coming
Sun, November 24, 2024 06:04 - 180 posts
Giant UFOs caught on videotape
Sun, November 24, 2024 05:43 - 8 posts
California on the road to Venezuela
Sun, November 24, 2024 05:41 - 26 posts
Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
Sun, November 24, 2024 05:37 - 71 posts
MAGA movement
Sun, November 24, 2024 05:04 - 14 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL