Chiquita banana pays death squads... by SignyM

America loves a winner!

Figures. Blame Bush. Never mind that this bridge orginally was known to have a probolem since back in 1990. How a State spends, or fails to spend its funds is a State matter, not the office of the President.

Quote:
"We chose the inspection route. In May we began inspections," Dan Dorgan, the state's top bridge engineer, said. "We thought we had done all we could, but obviously something went terribly wrong."

Dorgan said there was enough money in the agency's budget to pay for construction work on the underside of the bridge. But he and Gov. Tim Pawlenty acknowledged that transportation officials will face tough questions about the state's upkeep of the bridge, which has had known deficiencies since 1990.

"We will absolutely get to the bottom of this," Pawlenty said. "There were a lot of decisions made, a lot of judgment calls made, and they're all going to have to be critically reviewed."

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1339411.html

This is nothing more than BIG, BUREAUCRATIC Gov't, once again passing the buck to YOU the tax payer, while playing the game of CYA. Unable to account for the BILLIONS of tax $$$'s wasted over decades of abuse, waste , corruption and ineptitude, they'll intentionally point the finger an anyone but themselves, and cry about not having enough funding. Horse hockey!

Get a gorram clue.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, August 5, 2007 11:51 AM

Chiquita's feat is disgusting, but likely more common than we care to admit. Unless the case is that Chiquita was trying to get specific action from the squads, like as much is was 'protection' money. "Back in the day" (at least, I like to think the mob is fairly well broken in this regards, I could be wrong), substantial numbers of business folk in the bigger east coast city's 'paid the mob.' I would -hope- a company this big would 'fight back' against such things, but I'm willing to boycott Chiquita for at least a few months for failing to have a back bone and stand against them.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/20/1420235
'At the time Chiquita defended its actions saying it fell victim to an extortion racket that threatened its employees.'
I believe even =if= that is the reason, they should have found a better way.
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Re: bridge collapse; as much as I enjoy blaming Bush for things, I have to agree this has to be a problem which falls at a more local level. Local inspection teams, and perhaps more importantly, who ever set local priorities. IFF it turns out it was properly prioritized, but insufficient funds were available for bridge work, then I lean toward blaming the state Gov. for not allocating enough money toward bridge maintenance; or (if you want to look at it the other way) of mismanaging the money so there was not enough for bridge maintenance.

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Sunday, August 5, 2007 12:05 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

and other outrages

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/Oddities/070805/K080502AU.html

" SURF CITY, N.J. (AP) - The Army Corps of Engineers, which accidentally dumped sand filled with old military ordnance on Surf City's beach, now wants the town to help pay to remove it.

Local officials are angered by the suggestion that they should help foot the bill for a federal goof that already has cost the town an unknown amount of tourism business. "

better call Haliburton... lol

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Sunday, August 5, 2007 12:06 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hello? The bridge was built by the Army Corps of Engineers, and is part of the interstate highway system over a navigable river. That makes at least partly a Federal responsibility, which the Feds themselves acknowledge.

Quote:
The federal government is now providing about $40 billion a year to improve and expand the nation's highways and bridges. The main source of revenue for roads and bridges, the federal highway trust fund, is failing to keep up with spending demand.

www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/national/MI57063/

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, August 5, 2007 1:23 PM

I fail to see how this surprises you Siggy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company
They've got a bit of a history for such behavior, wiki's a lot nicer to em on that front than they oughta be.

At least it's supporting the local economy, cause really, what's the difference between the right-wing stormtroopers of the AUC, and the right-wing stormtroopers of Blackwater, save for geographical location ?
(If you know *anything* about Blackwater, you'll understand why this comparison is made)

The AUC was prolly cheaper to hire, too.

Not sayin it's a very nice thing, mind you, but a goon squad is a goon squad, and whether the state dept likes em or not, has more to do with whos side we're on this week than anything else.

How many current "Terrorists" were once US allies funded with taxpayer money, eh ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, August 5, 2007 4:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hello? The bridge was built by the Army Corps of Engineers, and is part of the interstate highway system over a navigable river. That makes at least partly a Federal responsibility, which the Feds themselves acknowledge.
Quote:
The federal government is now providing about $40 billion a year to improve and expand the nation's highways and bridges. The main source of revenue for roads and bridges, the federal highway trust fund, is failing to keep up with spending demand.
www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/national/MI57063/

Hi!
Thanks for providing the link to this, documents my point exactly:
"The federal government provides 80 percent of the money for construction, repair and maintenance of the so-called federal-aid highway system including Interstate highways and bridges. But states set priorities and handle construction and maintenance contracts."

So to quote you " This man [State Governor] was so committed to not raising gas taxes (the first proposed increase in 20 years) that he starved ALL bridge repairs. "
So, as I said, prioritization problems, to say the least. So combine a Governor who has starved "ALL" bridge repairs, the fact that the -state- sets the prioritization... I'm sorry, please explain how -Bush- is responsible for this.

Also, if you feel that there's not enough 'waste' in the federal money stream to come up with the missing 15 billion also mentioned in the article, then please don't moan about tax increases.
Edit: I know it's a bad day when I post something defending Bush.

====
Please vote for Firefly hourly: http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html

Consider $5/year to support FFF: http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/pay/T39WWCGS4JYCV4

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Sunday, August 5, 2007 4:52 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hello? The bridge was built by the Army Corps of Engineers, and is part of the interstate highway system over a navigable river. That makes at least partly a Federal responsibility, which the Feds themselves acknowledge.
Quote:
The federal government is now providing about $40 billion a year to improve and expand the nation's highways and bridges. The main source of revenue for roads and bridges, the federal highway trust fund, is failing to keep up with spending demand.
www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/national/MI57063/

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm finding myself forced to repeat myself. Perhaps reading this a 2nd time will allow its meaning to sink in.

Or not.

" Dorgan said there was enough money in the agency's budget to pay for construction work on the underside of the bridge. But he and Gov. Tim Pawlenty acknowledged that transportation officials will face tough questions about the state's upkeep of the bridge, which has had known deficiencies since 1990."

Oh, and did anyone catch that part at the end of the sentence ?? Where it says -

" ...the state's upkeep of the bridge, which has had known deficiencies since 1990. "

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, August 6, 2007 3:38 AM

JONGSSTRAW

The Federal Gov't gives the states about $ 60 billion a year for transportation. Trouble is then what the states do with it...fixing bridges?...Naw...in W. Virginia, for example, everything built there says Robert Byrd...as in... Robert Byrd Turnpike, Robert Byrd Tunnel, Robert Byrd Arena, Robert Byrd Endangered Turtle Preserve, Robert Byrd Ku Klux Klan Memorial Center, Robert Byrd Mensa Studies Library, Robert Byrd Business School of Pork Barrel Corruption, and on and on....all states have their own Robert Byrds...but yes...of course, President Bush is at fault for Minneapolis...for the money he's spent in Iraq, the Govt. could have hired 12,575 un-employed recently-raised minimum wage workers to actually just stand there all day, every day, and hold up the bridge by hand, all while singing We Are The World together while scraping their weathered skin away to send in to Washington for stem-cell extraction and implantation into Dennis Kucinich's upper vertabrae to hopefully grow an adult body and spine.

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Monday, August 6, 2007 5:08 AM

CHRISISALL

Can you say 'gloss over'?
Neo-cons are fine with goon squads. Chiquita was just defending it's interests- it's business, nothing more. Death is a part of life...and profits, it would seem. Law of the jungle. All is well.

Semi-disgusted Chrisisall

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Monday, August 6, 2007 9:07 AM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
cause really, what's the difference between the right-wing stormtroopers of the AUC, and the right-wing stormtroopers of Blackwater, save for geographical location ?

Blackwater actually designs cool new toys?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_APC

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Monday, August 6, 2007 9:09 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

After doing some research on Minnesota Bridge responsibility I've come up with the following: The system is broken as much as the bridge. Gov Pawlenty has a lot of blame on his shoulders, as do the Minnesota Legislature Republicans. But Congress bears the largest part, since they are the biggest source of funds. And it all boils down to pork. http://wonkette.com/politics/you-did-this-dept/everyone-at-fault-in-br
idge-disaster-285844.php

What this article is telling me (besides the fact that money talks, which I already knew) is that if we do "politics as usual" our politicians can't keep their eyes on the ball for the time it takes to actually locate, scope, design, and build a bridge. If we're going to do infrastructural repair, it has to either be on a priority basis- the way Eisenhower had the interstates built

Quote:
Title I of the 1956 Act increased the System's proposed length to 41,000 miles. It also called for nationwide standards for design of the System, authorized an accelerated program, established a new method for apportioning funds among the States, changed the name to the National System of Interstate and Defense Highways, and set the Federal Government's share of project cost at 90 percent.

www.fhwa.dot.gov/programadmin/interstate.cfm

...or (my personal fave) we fix the system by taking essentially technical decisions out of the hands of politicians.

I fault GWB, Republicans specifically of being so "pro-business" and anti-government that they won't allow the government to even carry out it's day to day functions. You want government strangled in bathtub? Fine. Get used to falling bridges and tainted food, because unless someone is out there with a whip hand over industry, they'll go for the least-cost highest-margin path.
----------------------------

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, August 6, 2007 10:54 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

I fault GWB, Republicans specifically of being so "pro-business" and anti-government that they won't allow the government to even carry out it's day to day functions. You want government strangled in bathtub? Fine. Get used to falling bridges and tainted food, because unless someone is out there with a whip hand over industry, they'll go for the least-cost highest-margin path.
.

Of COURSE you blame Bush! No shocker there. Hell, screw the facts, you'd rather deal in glossed over generalities, " pro-business / anti Gov't " rhetoric. You cite Wonkette as a " source " ? This oh so serious of bloggers who makes Michael Moore look like a legitimate direcotr of documentary films. Color me unimpressed. The problem with you and your kind is that you love Gov't too much. I'd remind you what one of our founders said.....

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson

Just as was the case w/ the levees around New Orleans, the primary fault w/ the collapse of the 35W bridge lies w/ the state and local gov'ts , and not the office of the President. Stop using national tragedies as political hit pieces. It's woefully dishonest, false, and does nothing but divide us even further.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, August 6, 2007 11:25 AM

I have done some looking around, but no luck. Has anyone found if MN had allocated sufficient State funds to get their full federal highway 'match'? More exactly, I'd be interested to know if they did so in the years 2000-2005 (funding later than that would probably have been too late to avoid this catastrophe). If not, then I would be obliged to say that the fault lies plainly with MN State Government.

I will concede that congress does too much pork. I recall that wonderful bridge they want to build in Alaska to join some islands that they estimate will get a few cars a day across it. Those millions could easily have funded a lot of needed repairs elsewhere. Heres $200,000,000 we could have used elsewhere... http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/000054.html

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Monday, August 6, 2007 4:33 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

I hate to say it but my outsiders point of view would put this on the state government. While Federal funding for upkeep is a real issue, inspection is done through the state. If it wasn't safe they SHOULD have closed it then raised a stink about funding pointing at the Feds. By not doing this, they own most of this.

So the message to other state govs, when safety is in doubt shut it down.

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Monday, August 6, 2007 8:53 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Of COURSE you blame Bush!

If it makes you feel any better, I blame you, too!

Quote:
Hell, screw the facts

Wait! That's MY line! THIS from the guy who wouldn't know a fact if it bit him in the *ss? Well at least now I'm gonna feel perfectly justified crucifying you every time you ignore facts, seeing as you're such a factual person.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, August 6, 2007 9:00 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Gino, it's a little more complicated than that.

On the one hand, you have a bridge that's "structurally deficient" and show signs of cracks due to metal fatigue etc. On the other hand, you have all the expense and disruption of making major repairs or even replacing a bridge.

Now, if there were enough money right way to repair or replace, the decision to do that becomes easier. Id there is REALLY more than enough money, then you can afford to put the replacement on an expedited basis: pay overtime, work stuff in parallel even if it means some duplication of effort etc. and the decision becomes a LOT easier.

As a technical person in an air pollution regulatory agency (one I might add that is quite corrupt) I've seen how the stops can be pulled out for senseless projects, while important work goes begging. The money is always there for the stuff "they" want.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, August 6, 2007 9:48 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Gino, it's a little more complicated than that.

On the one hand, you have a bridge that's "structurally deficient" and show signs of cracks due to metal fatigue etc. On the other hand, you have all the expense and disruption of making major repairs or even replacing a bridge.

Now, if there were enough money right way to repair or replace, the decision to do that becomes easier. Id there is REALLY more than enough money, then you can afford to put the replacement on an expedited basis: pay overtime, work stuff in parallel even if it means some duplication of effort etc. and the decision becomes a LOT easier.

As a technical person in an air pollution regulatory agency (one I might add that is quite corrupt) I've seen how the stops can be pulled out for senseless projects, while important work goes begging. The money is always there for the stuff "they" want.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

Well, my background... years ago I apprenticed as a aircraft maintenance engineer and in that field ( in Canada anyway ) you find something wrong, you write it up and it either gets fixed on the spot, it gets examined and defered by a higher authority ( in my case we called Boeing, sent photos, etc and they issued a waiver ) or the aircraft is removed from service until one of the first two happen. I cant see how you can have anything fail a safety inspection, then let it go until it fails killing people. In the aircraft industry the civil suits would extend to whomever signed off the aircraft into service, and I think the same sort of rules should apply in this case.

And if money was the issue, the expense and disruption of a closure are likely sure ways of forcing the issue into having the cash found. And I am sure we could agree that would be alot cheaper than a failure.

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 12:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I hate to say it but my outsiders point of view would put this on the state government. While Federal funding for upkeep is a real issue, inspection is done through the state. If it wasn't safe they SHOULD have closed it then raised a stink about funding pointing at the Feds. By not doing this, they own most of this.

So the message to other state govs, when safety is in doubt shut it down.

Personally, you've 'capped' this issue for me. I agree 100%; local authorities should have spotted this and closed the bridge (or put appropriate load limits, but I suspect the only way to have done this safely is to close it) until funding caught up.

Then folks could have whined to their hearts content about the funding side until -that- got corrected.... though I suspect the state would have -reprioritized- and the closure of -this- bridge never would have happened (though it might have caused enough other things to delay that -those- delays (or closures of less critical routes) still would have ended up with a lot of unhappy folks complaining about funding problems.

Edit: Here's a thought. This bridge got low ratings; known problems. What if we require a sign to be posted before all bridges which have a quality low enough that they fall into the 2 year or less inspection cycle requirement of what the bridge rating was? Maybe those folks would have chosen to stop using this '50 %' bridge if they had known?

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 1:06 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Of COURSE you blame Bush!
If it makes you feel any better, I blame you, too!

Of course you do. It makes about as much sense.

Quote:
Quote:
Hell, screw the facts
Wait! That's MY line! THIS from the guy who wouldn't know a fact if it bit him in the *ss? Well at least now I'm gonna feel perfectly justified crucifying you every time you ignore facts, seeing as you're such a factual person.

I just obliterated you and your fact CHALLENGED position on this issue. You blamed Bush for this catastrophy, when the FACTS clearly showed that a) This bridge was deemed a problem since 1990 and b) the State HAS THE FUNDS, now , to address this specific problem, but still failed to act. Bush, as am I, remain blameless.

Them's the facts. Get over your petty insecurities, you bias, and face reality.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 4:06 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Bush, as am I, remain blameless.

While I tend to agree with you on who's fault the bridge collapse was, I have to ask two things:
What about the Chiquita death squads?
In what kind of English is the quoted sentance above acceptable?

Cantankerous Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 5:18 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

1990 - wasn't that George HW's reign ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush
"George Herbert Walker Bush (born June 12, 1924) was the forty-first President of the United States, serving from 1989 to 1993."

There was a starting swell of "Blame Clinton" from the right until it was pointed out that 1990 was George HW's reign. So the whole idea of Federal responsibility was ditched in right-wing world b/c it would put the blame on dubya. So they had to move it to a state problem.

You have to admit one thing about Rap - he does his right-wing homework and keeps up with the right-wing talking points very well.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 5:39 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I ran across this so I thought I'd throw it in here:

http://www.gcn.com/print/26_19/44770-1.html
... and growing concerns about how much government work is being farmed out to contractors. Spending on government contracts has nearly doubled during the past six years, from $219 billion to $415 billion.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 8:38 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Interesting article, www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/us/07highway.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&th&emc=
th

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 9:58 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Them's the facts. Get over your petty insecurities, you bias, and face reality

Auraptor, I've spent some time learning about shared (ie Federal and State) responsibility for interstate tranportation systems. What I've learned is that the responsibilty is indeed shared, and unfortunately "shared" responsibility often means no accountability.

And like many looming crises (IT policies and purchases, pollution control strategy, education techniques, disease control etc.) infrastructural integrity would benefit from relatively straighforward technical decisions, but politicians often manage to take over and "micromamage" the budget to their benefit. (And boy, does that chap my *ss because our agency budget has turned into a piggy-bank.)

For my part, what I'd like to see is "boards" turned out on the street en masse, and agencies run by staff. The staff would develop a budget and program, and put it to popular vote. I'm so fed up with politicians at this point I want them ALL out of the loop!

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 10:40 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
1990 - wasn't that George HW's reign ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush
"George Herbert Walker Bush (born June 12, 1924) was the forty-first President of the United States, serving from 1989 to 1993."

There was a starting swell of "Blame Clinton" from the right until it was pointed out that 1990 was George HW's reign. So the whole idea of Federal responsibility was ditched in right-wing world b/c it would put the blame on dubya. So they had to move it to a state problem.

You have to admit one thing about Rap - he does his right-wing homework and keeps up with the right-wing talking points very well.

I'm unaware of which imaginary world you live in where " there was a starting swell of 'Blame Clinton' from the right". Regardless of who the President was then or is now, I maintain that it's primarily the state's responsibility to check and keep up their bridges. The Gov says they had the money, but still didn't act on it. Don't know how long they've had the $$, but it's clear the bureaucracy wasn't serving the people.

Just keep living in your partisan glass houses, and keep throwing those partisan rocks.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 10:42 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm so fed up with politicians at this point I want them ALL out of the loop!

On that, we can agree.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 11:34 AM

March 14th 2002.
Report Outlines Poor Condition of Nation’s Roads.
http://www.asce.org/pressroom/news/grwk/event_release.cfm?uid=1605

Here's another - October 23, 2005
http://www.worldtrademag.com/CDA/Articles/
LTL_and_Motor_Freight/589c170abaaf7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____
(spaced to avoid screenwrap)

Some details of how federal funds are present, but so legislated and restricted in use that often state govs cannot apply them where and how they are needed.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=24811

Switch off Faux News, put down the Kool-Aid and read once in a while, and maybe you'd have something other than dittohead talking points to address the issues with, Asshat.

That bein said, one must also realize that I-35 means INTERSTATE 35, as in dual responsibility for maintainence and inspection, through a torturous tangle of red tape and assigned responsibilities and so much beauracratic bullshit defining what can be spent by whom, where and how - that not a rivet fucking falls but that it's plink is noted in quintuplicate, and then with a followup memo "Rivet, Wasteage: Query?".

I'd say 15 cents of that buck lands on shrubs shoestrings, and the remaining 85 on the state - no doubt they had the money, but from what I've seen here in MI, having the money means nothing compared to negotiating the tremendous levels of red tape and bullshit concerning any govt project.

It's one thing to say go and do it - yet another to write up the appropriations, get the bids, then go back through the bids and sort equal-opportunity/gov't quota bidders to the top, then fire and discard them when they can't deliver, then start over, and get someone on the job, deal with cost overruns, subcontractors with crummy crap that don't meet specs, rejecting and replacing them, more cost overruns, etc yadda.

It's not easy, from a Gov aspect - and almost impossible to do right by the very nature of the thing.

So blame the Gov, doesn't matter which, government is a problem of it's own making, and with only one solution, the unemployment of the incompetent.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 11:59 AM

America loves a winner!

Frem, this has nothing to do w/ FOX news, or W, despite your zealous adherence to claim the contrary. The Gov has admitted they had the money and they( the State Government )knew there was a problem w/ this bridge, but somehow the ball still got dropped. As much as you'd love for this to be an example of " how the Right hates Big Gov't", the fact is that we ALL should hate ineffective government! It makes little difference whether this was an INTER or INTRA state bridge, the fact still remains....those who use it the most and whose ability and obligation to check it and maintain the bridge were the STATE and LOCAL authorities. NOT THE FEDS. Do you HONESTLY think there's an office in Washington D.C. which cares more about, has more info on or knows what's best for the folks in anytown USA than the folks who LIVE there ??? Get fucking real! Where the 'shared' responsibilities come into play is in the funding. The state HAD the funds. This should be a wake up call for all the other State and local authorities across the country to stop the corruption, stop the graft, lining their own pocketbooks, the pork barrel trade offs and get back to doing the business of the PEOPLE!

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 2:13 PM

It's one thing to have the money, another to have it and not be able to use it cause it's earmarked for other stuff, or mired in red tape.

The WDOT is primary responsibility, and secondary is NTSB for not properly performing their oversight function, but since those rules and regs which sandbag the process were written by congress and approved by the exec, damn right imma throw some blame at them too.

And folks learn by example, government officials too - as long as it's ok for the upper end of the feddies to shovel pork to Haliburton/KBR, you really think the example that sets is gonna convince local officials to give up THEIR pork and sweetheart deals ?

It's rotten through and through in both parties, believe me, I'm well aware of it, I just get annoyed at screaming shills without a clue grabbing a party line and sticking to it even in the face of damned obvious realities, and I *will* mock for it, at every possible chance.

All that being said, my local politicos know imma ballbuster when it comes to such things, as we learned with "Elmer FUD" aka Elmer Parraghi, and the most recent round and round over the desired blank check to build an unneeded school building in another district by contracting their friends and relatives...

And we're about to have another go-round cause now they want a blank check for police funding, in a town you could cover completely with three cops and a fekkin bicycle - fer cryin out loud you can quite literally SPIT from one end of this place to the other, and the most serious "crime" in recent history, other than minor vandalism, was the fekkin DHS/INS dragging our gas station owner out in the middle of the night and sending him god-knows-where, resulting in the closure and abandonment of our primarly local fuel stop and convenience store... Grrr

And he was a decent guy too, ergo i'm quite pissed at the folk who make such an atmosphere of fear and loathing possible, so don't go expecting any mercy from me.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 2:47 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Bungling, or deliberate ?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070807/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ ylt=ArYWzK842Yc1_17vUOcEGGus0NUE
U.S. troop deaths up after drop in July

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070807/wl_afp/usattacksguantanamo_070807
174952;_ylt=Ahw8X_ YxYF53Boam8Qz100is0NUE
Britain seeks release of five Guantanamo inmates

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070807/ts_nm/sept11_damages_dc
Airlines seek FBI, CIA September 11 testimony

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/seafood_safety_failures;_ylt=Aqe3DSZvYXjuGu
LpxnL8oUys0NUE
AP: Seafood from China wasn't screened

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070807/ap_on_re_us/bridge_collapse;_ ylt=Ahfk_nh1Rnp5THVZu8zjzius0NUE
Navy divers join Minn. bridge search

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070807/ap_on_re_us/burn_bed_shortage;_ ylt=AilUTxH_jt9.3GfjuCyE_Eas0NUE
Hospitals are shutting down burn centers

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070807/us_nm/beaches_usa_dc;_ylt=AtqJ49zq
LUiSmPEBr8GrY.Ss0NUE
Pollution closes record number of beaches: study

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070807/wl_mideast_afp/iraqunrestusweapon
s_070807233839;_ ylt=AjUHMVDegbEBzo4TbU8.cCms0NUE
US commander says 190,000 missing US guns went to Iraqi forces

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 3:03 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Frem I gotta agree with you on something: It all starts at the top.

That kind of conclusion goes against my desire to see individualist/ populist movements setting the tone, but having survived three CEOs and about seven Directors, I can say for sure that the "culture" of an oragnization is inevitably set by the top echelon. If you have corrupt, smirking know-nothings at the top (as we do) that "message" is inevitably transmitted downwards. Rank and file does the best they can, but eventually they retire, quit, or are fired simply because they're not allowed to do a decent job.

I feel there's a rot in the heart of America, and that its best exemplified by Bush, Cheney, Gonzalez, Rove, who lie, cheat, and steal every single day. But that's not letting Dems off the hook either.

There has GOT to be a better way!

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, August 7, 2007 11:56 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
If you have corrupt, smirking know-nothings at the top (as we do) that "message" is inevitably transmitted downwards. Rank and file does the best they can, but eventually they retire, quit, or are fired simply because they're not allowed to do a decent job.

That's rich. Not ALLOWED to do a decent job? ROFLOL! Please. Your entire premise is based on a flawed, personal opinion that isn't backed up by any fact. That Bush and Cheney lie, cheat and are corrupt. After that, all you've got is scapegoating to the Nth degree, all simply for partisan political bitching points.

Quote:
I feel there's a rot in the heart of America, and that its best exemplified by Bush, Cheney, Gonzalez, Rove, who lie, cheat, and steal every single day. But that's not letting Dems off the hook either.

Oh geeeze, how gracious of you.

Quote:
There has GOT to be a better way!

Clearly, there is.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 12:49 AM

Don't forget the ideology-blinded party-shill cheerleaders who enable em, either, Siggy.

I sure as hell won't.

-F

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 12:54 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

SignyM & Auraptor....

I'm sure you are both not suprised to know that for completely different reasons, I think you're both wrong.

You're also both right...

Can we stop devoting ourselves mindlessly to one side or the other please? That's the real problem in this country. Everybody is so busy being either a Republican or a Democrat that the only thing getting accomplished is the slow death of the American way.

To quote Auraptor: "Just keep living in your partisan glass houses, and keep throwing those partisan rocks."

EDIT:

SignyM: "I'm so fed up with politicians at this point I want them ALL out of the loop!"

Auraptor: "On that, we can agree."

Me: "My God! Does that make the three of us in agreement on something?"

There may yet be hope afterall....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 8:58 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Under the heading of other outrages ...
--------------------------------

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070808/ts_afp/chinaenvironment_070808124
624
China's white dolphin likely extinct

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070808/us_nm/young_uninsured_dc; _ylt=AqWYdAgBMnl06788PvW8WLWs0NUE
Young adults lead in lacking healthcare: report

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070807/wl_nm/weather_un_extreme_dc; _ylt=AusUsNuepG_rBHNQyc8GwmOs0NUE
Early 2007 saw record-breaking extreme weather: U.N.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070808/ap_on_re_as/afghanistan_pakistan; _ylt=AuV5p3qximj7GPg3dlfqRPSs0NUE
Musharraf pulls out of peace council

http://news.yahoo.com/s/oneworld/45361520831186582372; _ylt=AnPK_OAveQ3f5w9nPCFYRCphr7sF
Poll: Iraqis Oppose Oil Privatization

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/paying_for_vaccines;_ylt=AqZ9klFEeyxK22V9ka
6o5mhhr7sF
Some children shut out from vaccines

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070808/ts_nm/newyork_transport_dc
Flooding cripples New York's aging infrastructure

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/usdefensemilitaryiraq;_ylt=AqwkiEWmIyy46xN
pszAljC8DW7oF
US urgently needs anti-mine cars in Iraq: report

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2143096,00.html
Bad call from a Wall Street king

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6835474,00.html
Repair Job Ruled Out in Steam Pipe Blast

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6835518,00.html
Montana Fire Crews in for Long Haul
--------------------------------

'Ya see Rap, this is what makes wrong-headed thinking wrong - the string of bad results that come of it. Ye shall know the tree by it's fruit - and so on.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 9:39 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
That's rich. Not ALLOWED to do a decent job? ROFLOL! Please. Your entire premise is based on a flawed, personal opinion that isn't backed up by any fact. That Bush and Cheney lie, cheat and are corrupt. After that, all you've got is scapegoating to the Nth degree, all simply for partisan political bitching points

Oh goody! This from the f*cktard who wants me to be "factual"! I'm kinda busy right now, but I'll be happy to start the crucifixion party later tonight, since you apparently prefer the view up your *ss to looking at facts.

Quote:
Can we stop devoting ourselves mindlessly to one side or the other please? That's the real problem in this country. Everybody is so busy being either a Republican or a Democrat that the only thing getting accomplished is the slow death of the American way.

6ix- Apparenty you have me mistaken for a partisan Dem. Why? I didn't voted for Bill, I'd rather cut off my right hand than vote for Hillary, I think most Dems are cowardly weasels who are so busy triangulating that they're utterly incapable of any action of consequence. The only f*cking partisan here is Auraptor, who is so friggin' in love with his hero that he can't see that GWB is as bad as any Dem in recent memory and in some ways a good deal worse. So don't you go shaking your finger at me, boy. You got me confused with someone else. Aim your sights where they really belong.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 9:51 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Your entire premise is based on a flawed, personal opinion that isn't backed up by any fact. That Bush and Cheney lie, cheat and are corrupt.

You're a fool AU. An honest-to-goodness fool. You would have been cheering for Hitler too, back in the day. Fear of the truth runs you.
Really, you should stay off here. Fantasy is your game; you're much more agreeable on the Buffy threads.

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Under the heading of other outrages ...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/usdefensemilitaryiraq;_ylt=AqwkiEWmIyy46xN
pszAljC8DW7oF
US urgently needs anti-mine cars in Iraq: report

While perusing your other linked articles, this one caught my attention. What point are you trying to make with this one?

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
You're a fool AU. An honest-to-goodness fool. You would have been cheering for Hitler too, back in the day. Fear of the truth runs you.
Really, you should stay off here. Fantasy is your game; you're much more agreeable on the Buffy threads.

But your support for all things 'left' and your ad hominal attacks would be sorley missed in RWED, so please stay.

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 1:01 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

You really can't tell ???

Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Under the heading of other outrages ...
US urgently needs anti-mine cars in Iraq: report

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
While perusing your other linked articles, this one caught my attention. What point are you trying to make with this one?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 1:05 PM

No, hence why I asked. The real question is do you?

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 2:17 PM

I'm going to take a wild guess that Rue thinks it is an outrage that despite some pretty obvious 'need' for this "US urgently needs anti-mine cars in Iraq" that it has not been previously satisfied. If so, I tend to agree; I mean, road side bombs have been a threat for how long down there?

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 2:20 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Your entire premise is based on a flawed, personal opinion that isn't backed up by any fact. That Bush and Cheney lie, cheat and are corrupt.
You're a fool AU. An honest-to-goodness fool. You would have been cheering for Hitler too, back in the day. Fear of the truth runs you.
Really, you should stay off here. Fantasy is your game; you're much more agreeable on the Buffy threads.

Chrisisall

Let's review. Hitler, blamed Jews for miserable economy which Germany experienced from its involvement in WW1. Hitler tries to exterminate Jews.

Bush, keeping America safe from Islamic Terrorist for 6+ years sicne 9/11, while cutting taxes, increasing revenue to the Treasury with 4 1/2 years of steady, economic growth.

Oh yeah. I see EXACTLY how you arrive at the 'Hitler' comparison.

Idiot.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 2:25 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:

'Ya see Rap, this is what makes wrong-headed thinking wrong - the string of bad results that come of it. Ye shall know the tree by it's fruit - and so on.

Nothing you posted above had any connection to Bush, so I fail to see any point. It's beyond idiotic for you to even attempt to try to connect one to t'other.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 2:41 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

China's white dolphin likely extinct
short-sighted human goals, a warning example of short-term self-serving thinking

Young adults lead in lacking healthcare: report
more people than ever w/o health insurance in the US - not being dealt with

Early 2007 saw record-breaking extreme weather: U.N.
what global warming ?

Musharraf pulls out of peace council
our best friend and ally (aside from the Saudis)

Poll: Iraqis Oppose Oil Privatization
as opposed laws the US wrote for Iraq

Some children shut out from vaccines
oh, it's that health insurance thing again

Flooding cripples New York's aging infrastructure
under built dikes, exploding steam pipes, falling bridges, and now - flooding subways. You think somebody would do something.

US urgently needs anti-mine cars in Iraq: report
STILL ????? didn't that get managed years ago ? Oh wait, I forget which administration I was talking about.

Bad call from a Wall Street king
the whole mortgage 'house of cards', you'd think there'd be some regulation

Repair Job Ruled Out in Steam Pipe Blast
it's that infrastructure thing, again.

Montana Fire Crews in for Long Haul
yeah, 'healthy forests' management that makes them even more fire prone, and, oh yes - what global warming ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 2:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Your entire premise is based on a flawed, personal opinion that isn't backed up by any fact. That Bush and Cheney lie, cheat and are corrupt.
You're a fool AU. An honest-to-goodness fool. You would have been cheering for Hitler too, back in the day. Fear of the truth runs you.
Really, you should stay off here. Fantasy is your game; you're much more agreeable on the Buffy threads.

Let's review. Hitler, blamed Jews for miserable economy which Germany experienced from its involvement in WW1. Hitler tries to exterminate Jews.
Bush, keeping America safe from Islamic Terrorist for 6+ years sicne 9/11, while cutting taxes, increasing revenue to the Treasury with 4 1/2 years of steady, economic growth.
Oh yeah. I see EXACTLY how you arrive at the 'Hitler' comparison.
Idiot.

See, I disagree. 3,000 + US citizens dead in Iraq; that's not exactly keeping Americans safe... of course, it could be said the 3,000 killed in Iraq were not the victims of Islamic Terrorists, so I suppose you are exactly correct in your claim.

On the flip side, I'm not quite up to comparing Bush to Hitler, either.

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 3:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
US urgently needs anti-mine cars in Iraq: report
STILL ????? didn't that get managed years ago ? Oh wait, I forget which administration I was talking about.

In your rush to condemn the Bush administration you forgot that you were against the war to begin with and it's endless monetary needs?
You just blamed Bush for not spending more money in Iraq instead of at home in areas like infrastructure, healthcare and the environment.

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Wednesday, August 8, 2007 3:27 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"In your rush to condemn the Bush administration you forgot that you were against the war to begin with and it's endless monetary needs?"

My objection from years ago wasn't about the money, it was about the lies.

The billions that are being wasted are not being spent on the troops - god knows they get little enough in pay, equipment and support.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, August 9, 2007 1:28 AM