To save America, we need another 9/11 by CrevanReaver

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
YOUR president is claiming Executive privilege on everything Auraptor. YOUR party is happy to remain blissfully ignorant of information. YOUR party doesn't want to govern, apparently, it wants to be taken care of by a daddy government. YOU want to abdicate responsibility over OUR democracy. We cannot check our politicians if we have no facts. We can't do our jobs as citizens. Apparently you are fine with that. Why do you hate our freedoms?

Let's see. Which President hid secret FBI files in their personal offices of 100's of political rivals, and then balked at even knowing how they got there ?

Which 'First Lady' kept stalling a Grand Jury order to present specific papers concerning billing records from Rose Law Firm, and then they somehow appear in her office, with her finger prints all over them?

No,it's YOUR party which wants to drag out partisan investigation after investigation, screaming about Impeachment since all the way back just after Bush was elected, all for the sake of 'getting even'. Your party doesn't want to Govern, they want to rule, and when they can't do that, they want to humiliate and ridicule our Commander in Chief...even during WAR TIME!! When there are legitimate perils to deal with, you a-holes simply want to play politics for the sake of playing games.

None of MY freedoms have been taken away. Have yours ? Oh, you mean the 'freedom' to attack the sitting President when he's of a different political party ? That freedom?

Sorry, you'll need much more than that.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, August 12, 2007 12:04 PM

RIGHTEOUS9

Dude,

your party did a 30 million dollar investigation. It controled the senate. It impeached. Kudos to it. With all of its digging it didn't nail the Clinton's down. My guess is there was probably wrong-doing, but it didn't stick. If you can't nail somebody for it, you can't nail them for it. But you should be at least fucking looking. Inexcusable that the best thing you can do is point back at Clinton. What I want to know is, where is your righteous indignation now? Where is your effort to forward open government in this country? Why are you okay with shit that erodes checks and balances when a President of your party does it?

On edit ---

During wartime? And when exactly is that little window going to close Auraptor? And why, with such sweeping priveleges awarded to the commander in Chief by people like you, should we ever expect to see an end to this war on terror, which Bush himself said we can't ever win.

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Sunday, August 12, 2007 1:00 PM

ALLIETHORN7

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Allie- Are you saying is that we should openly hope for what Hitler created covertly: a convenient enemy to unite us? Don't you find that a bit scary- that we would potentially value being "united" over being moral and just?

FWIW, IMHO except for blacks who have not yet been fully integrated and STILL face a lot of prejudice, first/second generation immigrants, and minorities of some religions, I don't see "ethnic heritage" as a major cause of our divisiveness. Also, division of opinion is not necessarily a bad thing. ALL nations contain diverse views.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

I didn't say hope. I said exactly what I said- America is so reactionary, that to actually do something, we need a focus. That focus could be a car crash, a terrorist attack, or a hurricane. We have- rather openly-simply refused to do something until we are given some type of proof or galvaniver.
I never said "Hope". I never would- if being fractured and disjointed means three thousand less folk to mourn, then I'd gladly have that.
All I said was that that would be what it would take- we, as a whole, are so busy fighting eachother, that an outside threat is most likely the only thing that could make us stop for a minute.
Even our countrys bloody NAME is meant so that we have some disjointedness- The United States of America. By definition, that means that, although we work together for our collective good, we are first bound to State, and only secondly to Country. When you ask someone where they're from, most like they'd tell you the State. I know I would. We take pride that we are from a STATE of America, but not necessarily America itself.
Hell, that was what very nearly killed us at the beginning- People from the same StAtes wanted to fight together, first and foremost.

As to the second thing- Diversiveness and suchlike... Touche. It very well may strengthen us- or not. We won't know until that scenario actually comes up, and, by then, we'd most likely be fucked anyway.
Ja.

-Danny

We move for all mankind,
A million miles from everything we've ever know...
We're on their hearts and minds,
A million heads are bowed to bring us safely home...
Hemmed in by emptiness,
A million ways that everything could be undone...

THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!
My Master went to the Moon in a Rocket of Flamin' Cheese!
I LIKE CHEESE!!!
http://www.myspace.com/otherrandomdude

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Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:00 PM

See, that's where everyone screws it up....

I got no problem with what anyone else does or believes, hell, more power to em - it's when they wanna force ME to do or believe, that is unacceptable.

They slam THEIR taxes on MY smokes, I gotta issue with that, they make THIER churches tax exempt in spite of the blatant political influance and make every effort to bend the law against any other belief system.

They want THEIR bullshit DCMA to apply to MY property I purchased, and use on MY land, and worst of all, they want THEIR wiretaps on MY phone line and internet.... they want in MY personal business.

Yanno, I don't even know my neighbors name, he don't know mine, and in a very short conversation as we put out the trash one night, we indicated to each other that we like it just that way.

I don't force or coerce other people to do, say, or believe anydamnthing, that's up to them, and all I ever ask is that same respect, but no one seems willing to give it.

Is it really too much to ask other folk and their damned governments to keep the hell out of my life and business ?

Cause that is, in the end, what it comes down to.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, August 12, 2007 3:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

None of MY freedoms have been taken away.

Nope. Your're a happy prisoner.

I am not a number, I am a FREE MAN!
Ha ha ha ha Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 12, 2007 5:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The Left is , by definition, womb to tomb Nanny state. Might not have been always, but that's what it is now. And I'm sure as hell not up for 'different' simply to be different. It has to have some substance, some MEANING. I'm all for the Fair Tax, but despite Ron Paul being for it, he's a nut case. Might have some good points, but he's the Howie Dean for the GOP.

So, Fair Tax, or at least keep the tax cuts where they are until we get the Fair Tax.

Let's agree to start agreeing there, ok?

I consider myself left of center, and I'm not up for womb to tomb. FWIW.

The Fair Tax? Only vaguely have heard of it. I presume this is a reference to...
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_main

Ok, I'm all for abolishing IRS and it's complexity. I have no objection to replacing it with a sales tax, other than it tends to be a bit regressive in principle; of course, with all the loop holes, it's not clear to me that the income tax is 'genuinely' progressive.

Looking at the website, these statements bother me a bit...
# Enables retirees to keep their entire pension
# Enables workers to keep their entire paycheck

Let's be honest, it doesn't much matter if they take the money up front or on the 'spend' side, they are taking the money. The only advantage is if the tax is 'fairer' and/or more effeciently collected; which is the important part. Just bugs me when they start trying to include irrelevent parts.

In any event, it seems to have some provision for reducing or eliminating the taxes for the poorly paid. So... sure.

And no, I also don't go for different's sake; it has to be meaningful. The point being, if we simply go with 'same old' discussion, nothing changes.

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Sunday, August 12, 2007 6:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
None of MY freedoms have been taken away. Have yours ?

Yes. I have been informed by my doctor's office they will provide records at the request of the federal government, and no warrant is required. In fact, they tell me they are not obliged to tell me my records have been provided if they ever are. To the best of my knowledge, they haven't been, but what the heck do I know?

President Bush has signed an executive order that if you should help someone who has helped someone who has helped someone who is believed to be a terrorist, they can seize all your assets. So far, so good for me. I basically have decided to stop contributing to any group smaller than, say, the American Red Cross as it is simply too hard to checkout who is help who with what. Even then, it still seems like a risky proposition.

I've lost the freedom to speak in private with those I wish to on the phone; no court orders are needed for wire taps.

You may not value these freedoms, but I did.

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Sunday, August 12, 2007 10:41 PM

Hopefully we suffer a 9/11 attack every year and we can be eternally pissed off at everyone!

We can all enjoy our 5 minutes hate every morning and in a generation or two we won't even question the Constitutionality of illegal wiretapping because there is no word for Constitution in Newspeak.

Boy, that would be Double Plus Good!

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, August 12, 2007 11:37 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Rightious9 wrote: ..... With all of its digging it didn't nail the Clinton's down. My guess is there was probably wrong-doing, but it didn't stick. If you can't nail somebody for it, you can't nail them for it. But you should be at least fucking looking.

Interesting how you glossed over the 2 topics I brought up. There was 'some wrong doing' when hundreds of secret FBI files suddenly 'show up' at the White House, but no one knows how ???

Fuck it , I give up.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, August 12, 2007 11:46 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
None of MY freedoms have been taken away. Have yours ?
Yes. I have been informed by my doctor's office they will provide records at the request of the federal government, and no warrant is required. In fact, they tell me they are not obliged to tell me my records have been provided if they ever are. To the best of my knowledge, they haven't been, but what the heck do I know?

Sounds like you might have a special circumstance which is related to public health. Other than that, I can't see why you'd be any different than anyone else.

Quote:

President Bush has signed an executive order that if you should help someone who has helped someone who has helped someone who is believed to be a terrorist, they can seize all your assets. So far, so good for me. I basically have decided to stop contributing to any group smaller than, say, the American Red Cross as it is simply too hard to checkout who is help who with what. Even then, it still seems like a risky proposition.
Does the E.O. really read " if you should help someone who has helped someone who has helped someone who is believed to be a terrorist... " ? If so, I'd at least like a reference.
Quote:
I've lost the freedom to speak in private with those I wish to on the phone; no court orders are needed for wire taps.

You may not value these freedoms, but I did.
I'd question whether or not you ever really had that 'freedom' in the first place, just as I'd challenge your broad brush approach that you, as any random Joe citizen, will or could have your phone " wire tapped ". As I understand it, no such activiity is taking place, what so ever. Certain requirements must first be met ( the person you're chatting with being a suspected terrorist as one ). The fact is, the Fed has had the ability to listen into ANY conversation, w/ out use of a physical wire tap. Google 'Carnivore' and 'communication' . You'll see this sort of stuff dates back to the Clinton era. But only after we've been attacked on our own soil and a Republican is in the White House do folks want to stand up and make an issue of it. I find that a bit odd.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, August 13, 2007 2:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
None of MY freedoms have been taken away. Have yours ?
Yes. I have been informed by my doctor's office they will provide records at the request of the federal government, and no warrant is required. In fact, they tell me they are not obliged to tell me my records have been provided if they ever are. To the best of my knowledge, they haven't been, but what the heck do I know?
Sounds like you might have a special circumstance which is related to public health. Other than that, I can't see why you'd be any different than anyone else.

I wasn't being treated different than everyone else. Everyone that day was getting the form, I watched. Most of the sheep signed it. I refused, and turned it in telling the receptionist that the form was giving implied consent based on the phrasing, that I would be willing to provide a statement acknowledging they believed what was there to be true and what they 'had' to do; but that I felt it was unconstitutional and that they should not comply with such requests. They were content to take the form back unsigned. I saw the doctor that day, and they never raised the point again.
Quote:

Quote:

President Bush has signed an executive order that if you should help someone who has helped someone who has helped someone who is believed to be a terrorist, they can seize all your assets. So far, so good for me. I basically have decided to stop contributing to any group smaller than, say, the American Red Cross as it is simply too hard to checkout who is help who with what. Even then, it still seems like a risky proposition.
Does the E.O. really read " if you should help someone who has helped someone who has helped someone who is believed to be a terrorist... " ? If so, I'd at least like a reference.
No,it merely says if you help anyone who has been found to be 'marked', then you can be 'marked'; it does not provide any limit to how many 'layers back' you peel the onion.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=29739
for the discussions in these forums, and it has a link to the EO, which you may read.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html

Quote:

Quote:
I've lost the freedom to speak in private with those I wish to on the phone; no court orders are needed for wire taps.

You may not value these freedoms, but I did.
I'd question whether or not you ever really had that 'freedom' in the first place, just as I'd challenge your broad brush approach that you, as any random Joe citizen, will or could have your phone " wire tapped ". As I understand it, no such activiity is taking place, what so ever. Certain requirements must first be met ( the person you're chatting with being a suspected terrorist as one ). The fact is, the Fed has had the ability to listen into ANY conversation, w/ out use of a physical wire tap. Google 'Carnivore' and 'communication' . You'll see this sort of stuff dates back to the Clinton era. But only after we've been attacked on our own soil and a Republican is in the White House do folks want to stand up and make an issue of it. I find that a bit odd.

'suspected' terrorist... maybe that doesn't worry you. In the past, it would have had to been proven to a relatively objective judical review; now it doesn't. All they have to do is pick either party on either end of the phone and simply state 'we suspect'.
Wiretap is now the common interpretation of 'using' those tools. Unless you maintain that under the Clinton administration they -were- listening to arbitrary calls; if that is your point, please state it plainly. You will note I'm not asking for measures to be put in place to have 'Carnivore' removed, I'm simply saying they should not listen unless there is a reason. And that reason should be sustained by a court order, IMHO. If you think there's no difference between having the infrastructure in place to do the listening; and actually using it to listen to arbitrary conversations, then I ask you why the administration went to the bother to get the rules changed?
==
Edited at 11 past the original hour to correct formatting problems and a few clarifications.

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Monday, August 13, 2007 3:08 AM

Lead, do you really think those rabid alphabet agency lunatics haven't been doing this crap from the very second of their inception, legally or not ?

I mean, seriously, I can go all the way back to operation HTLINGUAL and show you that.

What really brought it to my attention, and you can look this stuff up yourself cause I really don't have time this morning, is something that happened in the mid-late 90s.

The FBI went on a little field trip to the Soviet Union in order to hone their unlawful domestic spying abilities, and they were practically slavering and drooling over the Soviet SORM-II internet monitoring system, to the point of being so eager to copy it here that Congress felt the need, in spite of the fact that it was *already* illegal for them to do so - to explicitly forbid them to build it, forbid them to fund it, and forbid them to ever USE it on american citizens if they ever found a way around the first two.
(Carnivore/Omnivore is basically just an updated clone of SORM-II, mind you.)

And what did they do ?
IMMEDIATELY funded it, built it, and then started using it on americans right away - violating their charter, the law, and three congressional directives, spitting in the face of Congress, just like the DOJ is doing right now over the whole subpeano issue... man, if you or I told the courts were to stuff a subpeano, we'd be staring down the barrels of a SWAT team before you could even blink.

The Patriot act may have illegally (ex-post facto) and retroactively granted them permission, but for a long time prior to that the FBI was operating completely rogue in clear defiance of their charter and assigned function, and it's anything but the first time our alphabet agencies have done so - the church commission and FISA were somewhat of an attempt to tighten the leash on these rabid maniacs, because in hindsight the damage they do is far and away beyond anything that ever happened here since shermans march, and that includes 9-11, cause if you tally up the death toll from their own actions, it does in fact exceed that, and it doesn't even come close to the amount of economic damage and ruined lives and careers under COINTELPRO and other assorted programs of that nature.

They've almost never even performed their assigned function, choosing to instead harrass, intimidate, spy on and ever murder the very people they are supposed to be protecting - they are a poison within us, the arsenic in the states kool-aid, and ten times the threat any terrorist organisation ever was or will be.

Any yet when they come round at appropriates time for more funding, it's handed right on over, isn't it ?

I dunno about you, but if MY guard dog started mauling peoples kids while not bothering to defend my property, I sure as hell wouldn't be patting it on the head and throwing it treats.

Yeah, it's nuts, and took a good close look at Raps crazy fortress mindset and consider that THOSE are the kind of people that operate said alphabet agencies... and are then given massive budgets with no control or oversight.

YOUR money, MY money, used to commit terrorism, against US, in the name of "keeping order".

And folks wonder why imma Anarchist....

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, August 13, 2007 3:56 AM

I always find it quite hysterical that the same people screaming their personal business into their cell phones all day in public, for all to hear, are worried about losing their "privacy."

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Monday, August 13, 2007 4:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Lead, do you really think those rabid alphabet agency lunatics haven't been doing this crap from the very second of their inception, legally or not ?

I mean, seriously, I can go all the way back to operation HTLINGUAL and show you that.

Keep in mind my intention here was to try to keep Rap on track for a discussion perhaps to a conclusion on a particular point.

I will grant you raise a number of concerns, worthy of additional research; and I will dig a bit later.

The point I was trying to make is that we are having further erosions of freedom. It is one thing if they listen to my conversations illegally; if I can prove they did so, in theory legal action can be taken. If they manage to legalize it, I can't even do that. I admit, what hope to I have to win such a battle even if they don't legalize it? Not much, but 'at least' I have that to stand on. Again, simply because a thing can be done does not permit them to do it. I stand by my original position stated to Rap that what I described was a further erosion; if you disagree with that, please so note.

Now, if we can get agreement on that (and I mean more with Rap, I'm reasonably confident you will agree it is a further erosion), perhaps then the next question is 'what is the correct response to this erosion?'?

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Monday, August 13, 2007 4:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I always find it quite hysterical that the same people screaming their personal business into their cell phones all day in public, for all to hear, are worried about losing their "privacy."

Me too. I'm not one of them. I attempt to keep all conversions I wish to be private to be held at least only in my home, and I'm committed to retain a land line for privacy's sake. Doesn't help entirely if the person on the other end is a cell phone user, but I do what I can.

As far as cell courtesy, I am very careful to use my cell in consideration of others. It is on vibrate at restraunts, and is not answered (folks can go to voice mail, that's what the stinking thing is for).

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Monday, August 13, 2007 4:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I always find it quite hysterical that the same people screaming their personal business into their cell phones all day in public, for all to hear, are worried about losing their "privacy."

We also post our lives, feelings and emotions here J....

Dunno why.... could be because we feel that people need to say things like this so younger generations can hear it and realize that it's not normal for kids to grow up in classrooms where they're being video recorded the entire time they're there, just in case their teacher rapes them. If we're watched all the time J, and we're unable to make any decisions of our own based on fear of the repercussions that we could face for actually making our own choices in a world where we could be watched at any time..... we're nothing but robots then.

Consider cops today.... Even when I was 16 years old I got pulled over quite a bit, but cops liked me. I played the game. I still do. But now cops have a lot of gadgets that not only help them, but in many cases smother thier ability to be "human". Without even being a cop myself, I'm positive that your average street cop is granted a certain amount of "warnings" per week or month, or if they've met their quotas they're able to give breaks. Recently, even cops that I was sure weren't going to give me tickets at the end of our conversations gave me them. (I've got plenty of good cops stories... I've never been arrested for anything, but I'm a bit of a speed demon and probalby have a winning record if I tabulate the amount of tickets to the amount I've gotten out of)......

My point is that even today, the last time I got pulled over, which was about 2 months ago, the cop let me go because we were born in the same hospital. I think our conversation beforehand in large part had a lot to do with the events leading up to my getting away scott-free.... but he cut me a break....

Until that day, I was certain that I'd never get away with it again. I've had cops tell me that once they've started writing the ticket that they have no choice but to issue it. My heart warmed a bit when that cop let me go because I realized that at least in some parts of this country there is still a human heart beating in our police force. He could have given me a ticket for speeding that night, but we made a connection and he let me go. It was 2 in the morning and nobody was out and I wasn't drinking. I wasn't endangering anyones life going 45 on a 35 road with my wits about me. He cut me some slack, and unwittingly gave me a bit of my humanity back. He made me realize that even as bad as it's gotten recently, there still is a human heart beating in our governmental structure....

Above all, that's what I fear we will lose the most.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, August 13, 2007 4:57 AM

Neat story Jack, thanks for sharing.

One point I'd like to make, our discussions here are clearly public; and what I choose to post here, I clearly have no expectation of privacy. There are things I will not discuss in public, and I will either refrain from discussing them, drop to PM, or email. If I feel something warrants serious privacy, it gets encrypted or uses some means where I expect privacy... like a phone call placed from my home.

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Monday, August 13, 2007 4:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I always find it quite hysterical that the same people screaming their personal business into their cell phones all day in public, for all to hear, are worried about losing their "privacy.

We also post our lives, feelings and emotions here J....

Dunno why.... could be because we feel that people need to say things like this so younger generations can hear it and realize that it's not normal for kids to grow up in classrooms where they're being video recorded the entire time they're there, just in case their teacher rapes them. If we're watched all the time J, and we're unable to make any decisions of our own based on fear of the repercussions that we could face for actually making our own choices in a world where we could be watched at any time..... we're nothing but robots then.

Consider cops today.... Even when I was 16 years old I got pulled over quite a bit, but cops liked me. I played the game. I still do. But now cops have a lot of gadgets that not only help them, but in many cases smother thier ability to be "human". Without even being a cop myself, I'm positive that your average street cop is granted a certain amount of "warnings" per week or month, or if they've met their quotas they're able to give breaks. Recently, even cops that I was sure weren't going to give me tickets at the end of our conversations gave me them. (I've got plenty of good cops stories... I've never been arrested for anything, but I'm a bit of a speed demon and probalby have a winning record if I tabulate the amount of tickets to the amount I've gotten out of)......

My point is that even today, the last time I got pulled over, which was about 2 months ago, the cop let me go because we were born in the same hospital. I think our conversation beforehand in large part had a lot to do with the events leading up to my getting away scott-free.... but he cut me a break....

Until that day, I was certain that I'd never get away with it again. I've had cops tell me that once they've started writing the ticket that they have no choice but to issue it. My heart warmed a bit when that cop let me go because I realized that at least in some parts of this country there is still a human heart beating in our police force. He could have given me a ticket for speeding that night, but we made a connection and he let me go. It was 2 in the morning and nobody was out and I wasn't drinking. I wasn't endangering anyones life going 45 on a 35 road with my wits about me. He cut me some slack, and unwittingly gave me a bit of my humanity back. He made me realize that even as bad as it's gotten recently, there still is a human heart beating in our governmental structure....

Above all, that's what I fear we will lose the most.

Nice post 6ixString...I think the vast majority of people in the Government are good and decent people, same as in the private sector. Because we only really ever hear about the bad apples, so many bad apples sometimes, it seems like everything in the world is corrupt and inept. That's why it's a good idea to keep your sense of humor handy whenever your first instinct is too get agitated....especially 'bout things and/or people you cannot do anything about. All you really can do to change anything is to vote for candidates you believe in, ones who have a track record of achievements that agree with your positions. Political promises, politically expedient flip-floppers, and opponent bashing will never help you or I one iota.

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Monday, August 13, 2007 5:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I always find it quite hysterical that the same people screaming their personal business into their cell phones all day in public, for all to hear, are worried about losing their "privacy."

Me too. I'm not one of them. I attempt to keep all conversions I wish to be private to be held at least only in my home, and I'm committed to retain a land line for privacy's sake. Doesn't help entirely if the person on the other end is a cell phone user, but I do what I can.

As far as cell courtesy, I am very careful to use my cell in consideration of others. It is on vibrate at restraunts, and is not answered (folks can go to voice mail, that's what the stinking thing is for).

We need more citizens like you! Selfless & respectful of other folks around them...I'm startin' to get a little teary-eyed here just thinking that your post has given me hope for South Florida's human noise pollution problem.

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Monday, August 13, 2007 5:26 AM

I think you're right about a lot of the people J.... it's just the unscrupulous people and their weapons of mass destruction and how they target our ability to continue being human to each other. I'm afraid of losing that... I think there really is a lot of good in humanity, but it won't ever be showcased if we're all forced to obey our masters through fear of the bad in humanity.

Like I said before... I don't belive in the Lord of the Flies.... if those boys had good women pointing thier heads in the right direction there woudn't have been chaos. That book was practically OZ without the gay sex. The lack of Government wasn't to blame in the least for Piggy's untimely demise.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, August 13, 2007 5:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I think you're right about a lot of the people J.... it's just the unscrupulous people and their weapons of mass destruction and how they target our ability to continue being human to each other. I'm afraid of losing that... I think there really is a lot of good in humanity, but it won't ever be showcased if we're all forced to obey our masters through fear of the bad in humanity.

Like I said before... I don't belive in the Lord of the Flies.... if those boys had good women pointing thier heads in the right direction there woudn't have been chaos. That book was practically OZ without the gay sex. The lack of Government wasn't to blame in the least for Piggy's untimely demise.

Look, the hard truth here is that Good Men really would rather not have to confront Evil Men. Confrontations, threats, blockades, sanctions, wars, etc. are regrettable acts that no one wants. I was a pretty happy camper on Sept. 10, 2001...good job, proud family, a few bucks in the bank. I'm still basically the same; and although I (like most) are mesmorized by the endless brutality of the terrorists, I don't worry about it in my daily life, or really what is done to fight and defeat them. I trust that our Government, Dems & Reps...Libs & Cons alike, will do what they can to protect us. I don't care about the fine print, so to speak, of how they do it....I'm not out there wearing a badge and putting my life on the line every day, so I leave it to the professionals to safeguard America. God forbid if there ever is a serious attack, and armies of Jihadists are combing through the streets of Weston, Florida looking for infidels to shoot...I will be ready to defend my family with my snub-nose 38, my Remington 12 gauge, and as a last resort, some week-old dried out potato latkes.

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Monday, August 13, 2007 5:56 AM

You lost me until the end there J....

When that time comes, if it ever does, I will consider you a brother in arms and we will fight to the death to protect us and ours.

Don't ever give up that right to bear arms, ya hear?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, August 13, 2007 6:03 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
i'd question whether or not you ever really had that 'freedom' in the first place,

Yes. We did. There are two ways of looking at "privacy": one way views privacy as a thing onto itself, the other is the "no harm no foul" interpretation. So if someone were to execute a "sneak and peak" search of your home and (a) nothing ever came of it and (b) you didn't ever learn about it, the FIRST interpretation would say that your privacy had been violated while the second interpretation would say that it had not. Until quire recently, the government treated privacy (in theory at least) as a thing unto itself and that would be MY interpretation as well.

Quote:
. just as I'd challenge your broad brush approach that you, as any random Joe citizen, will or could have your phone " wire tapped ". As I understand it, no such activiity is taking place, what so ever. Certain requirements must first be met ( the person you're chatting with being a suspected terrorist as one ). The fact is, the Fed has had the ability to listen into ANY conversation, w/ out use of a physical wire tap. Google 'Carnivore' and 'communication' . You'll see this sort of stuff dates back to the Clinton era. But only after we've been attacked on our own soil and a Republican is in the White House do folks want to stand up and make an issue of it. I find that a bit odd.

Well I've been making an issue of it for quite a while, and so have a number of other people. Just because you weren't aware of both the issue AND the response doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

And here's the thing Auraptor: If the government is meeting all of those requirements, then why in hell didn't they just GET a FISA directive? (Same as a warrant, different name) Heck, they can even get one 72-hours after the fact! The ONLY reason to do what they did is to create a precedent that says I'm the President and I can do whatever I want, Courts be damned. The whole conundrum about security OR civil right is a very very very very false dichotomy, only you're either too stupid to see that or too willing to bend over and see other people bent over.

Like I said: People will willingly shackle themselves for the right to get fucked over. Or in your case, to fuck over someone else. How sad is that?

---------------------------------
You're a sad little king of a sad little hill.

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Monday, August 13, 2007 7:23 AM

Sig,
We actually had gotten down to a fairly civil tone; and I'd've been proud to call your append above mine up until the word 'dichotomy'; the rest is inflammatory and, IMHO, not helpful to a civil debate.

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Monday, August 13, 2007 7:34 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
We already had one 9/11, and look where we are. I'd think the Left wing would be cheering for the terrorist next time.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

Ah.. what? I think your mind may have wandered and never came back. The last thing the Left wants is anything that gives the right a chance to do this anymore.

Reporter - "Well what do you think about the state of our education system?"

Republican - "I admit it isn't exactly what we want it to be, but you can't forget about 9/11!"

Reporter - "Okay. Would you concede that our infrastructure is in rapid decline at the same time we spend billions on Iraq's?"

Republican - "Well, if that's true....Can you imagine the shape we would be in if we allowed the terrorists to blow it all up?"

Reporter - "Why do I get a feeling you aren't being entirely candid with me, sir?"

Republican - "I would have to say you are under some kind of mind-control manipulation that that the terrorists are trying to use on the American populous from some sort of new WMD or the 9/11 Muslim-witch potion."

Reporter - "What?"

*Fox reporter steps in*

Fox reporter - "Let me see if I can help clarify what Republican is saying...there have been reports coming from our intelligence that a memo, that is reported as being confirmed to have been written by Osama, has surfaced in a cave in Dubrakastan. This report mentions a possible terror plot to release 9/11 Muslim-witch potion on the masses. It states further that it will probably be released within days...I think that is why the Homeland security department took a preemptive step and raised the terror threat to Black."

Reporter - "Black?"

Fox reporter - "Yep. Don't be alarmed. This only means you can't leave your house this week."

Republican - "That is correct. See, we can never let our guard down against these barbaric terrorists. We never want to see another 9/11."

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Monday, August 13, 2007 7:37 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Sig,We actually had gotten down to a fairly civil tone; and I'd've been proud to call your append above mine up until the word 'dichotomy'; the rest is inflammatory and, IMHO, not helpful to a civil debate.

Unfortunately, when I read Auraptor's posts I go from "simmer" to "boil" in about 0.10 seconds.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, August 13, 2007 7:51 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
They were content to take the form back unsigned. I saw the doctor that day, and they never raised the point again.

So then, you admit that this was voluntary, and that there wasn't any real imposition by the Fed Gov't into your life or freedoms, right ? I have been asked my phone number and/ or address at certain stores. I politely decline. Just because they ask doesn't mean you have to answer. Well, unless it's the IRS.

Look, we're gonna actually agree on the power of the Federal Gov't being too strong in certain places, but there also has to be a pragmatic view on such matters concerning terrorism. You're aware of the GORELICK wall of seperation between different branches of Gov't. Granted, this didn't involve infringing on the rights of citizens by the Fed Gov't, but we do tend to paint ourselves in a box when it comes to trying to prevent major terrorist activity. It's not always so simple to decipher, I'll agree.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, August 13, 2007 8:07 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Sig wrote: And here's the thing Auraptor: If the government is meeting all of those requirements, then why in hell didn't they just GET a FISA directive? (Same as a warrant, different name) Heck, they can even get one 72-hours after the fact! The ONLY reason to do what they did is to create a precedent that says I'm the President and I can do whatever I want, Courts be damned. The whole conundrum about security OR civil right is a very very very very false dichotomy, only you're either too stupid to see that or too willing to bend over and see other people bent over.

Unlike you, Sig, I'm willing to take a pragmatic view on the issue. Why the hell didn't they just GET a FISA directive ? Maybe because they were afraid of leaks, as seems to be case. Seems some would rather sabotage the President's office than see us track down the terrorists. Or it could be because Foreign Intelligence Suveillance Act is too slow by today's standards to be of any real benefit. But since you've likely already talked about all this, you've casually dismissed it , out of hand, as nothing more than neocon 'talking points', and have some colorful, perjorative remark to make about anyone who disagrees with your position.

Of course, if you don't like the answer, why even ask the question? Sorry, but I'll side w/ the President and the 'need to know ' crowd on this one.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, August 13, 2007 8:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
They were content to take the form back unsigned. I saw the doctor that day, and they never raised the point again.

So then, you admit that this was voluntary, and that there wasn't any real imposition by the Fed Gov't into your life or freedoms, right ? I have been asked my phone number and/ or address at certain stores. I politely decline. Just because they ask doesn't mean you have to answer. Well, unless it's the IRS.

Look, we're gonna actually agree on the power of the Federal Gov't being too strong in certain places, but there also has to be a pragmatic view on such matters concerning terrorism. You're aware of the GORELICK wall of seperation between different branches of Gov't. Granted, this didn't involve infringing on the rights of citizens by the Fed Gov't, but we do tend to paint ourselves in a box when it comes to trying to prevent major terrorist activity. It's not always so simple to decipher, I'll agree.

No, I don't admit it was voluntary. The form -stated- that the feds could do this. The form was a bit 'odd' in that 'by signing below' I was agreeing that they 'could', which is why I didn't sign it. When I say 'could' they were not asking me permission; they were simply making the observation then wanting me to agree. The receptionist didn't seem to have a clue on the matter, so needless to say, it's not like we had a meaningful discussion. Another point, I also had an eye doctor appointment the same week. Same form, going out to everyone that day. Again, no meaningful discussion, I declined to sign the form again. If I recall the 'point' of the form was that I wouldn't sue them if they complied to the federal requirements, so what I was really declining was to not sue them if they did comply. I should caution this was about a year ago, I didn't keep a copy of the form, and this is from memory. The form stated the the federal prerogatives as a 'fact.' No, I did not go home to and check to make sure they were not simply full of hookum.

As far as the 'walls' in internal gov. red tape, I have a tendency to agree if the data is legally obtained, and various controls/privacy concerns are addressed, the agencies should be able to do needed cross references. Yes, we can paint ourselves into a corner; it needs to be avoided.

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Monday, August 13, 2007 4:41 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Seems some would rather sabotage the President's office than see us track down the terrorists. Or it could be because Foreign Intelligence Suveillance Act is too slow by today's standards to be of any real benefit."

"Some would rather sabotage the President's office ..." Who are those "some" Rap ? Any evidence for it ? Please be specific.

"Foreign Intelligence Suveillance Act is too slow by today's standards ..."

Really ? Surveillance gets a 72 hour head start. How could it be made any faster than that ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Monday, August 13, 2007 6:34 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
We already had one 9/11, and look where we are. I'd think the Left wing would be cheering for the terrorist next time.

What do you mean you think they'd be cheering? They do it every day, every single day for years; alternately cheering, and defending, and emoting for their jihadist brothers...THEY SUPPORT EACHOTHER....greatly and almost lovingly assisting each team to attain their respective goals...
The Left is rooting for and doing everything possible to help the terrorists; a treasonous course of action designed to put their Howard Dean/Al Franken-approved candidates in office, and keep the current cast of Pelositic Pathetics chairing all the key committees that are responsible for gay love in maple trees being legal in front of my house...aka, their well-known agenda of godless, morality-challenged secular-progressive George Sorosesque mental masterbatory fantasy vision of America...while the terrorists use their useful idiots here in America and all over the world to forestall & weaken the world's resolve to unite against them. That video we all saw of Osama & Mull-Man Omar & Zawahiri all jumping & cheering at the buildings coming down on 911 was NOT about their success in killing thousands of innocent people of all religions and origins..NO NO...they were gleefully ecstatic and cheering with tears that it wasn't gonna take but a few minutes before the momentarily-silenced Left would be out in force as they hoped and counted on blaming America and Bush and Christianity & Jews for their little gift to us...heck, another 911 attack killing thousands of people(preferably in a Red State), would send the Left into a frenzied overdose of happiness and joy....they'd all be out there in one of their Soros organized-funded demonstrations holding up signs (printed by Haliburton's silly protestors' sign division) with sayings like : We Love Islamic Beheaders, or Slit My Throat Next Achmed, and Clean Towels and Sheets For Our Al Qaida-Caucus Democrats Free Here, and Stone Me, My Bearded Brothers, I Peeked At Your Camel's Tits, etc. etc. And then Barbara Streisand would sing a benefit concert to raise millions for the muslim widows of the attackers.

hard concept for some I know, but its our Current government that are the terrorist

I read through this whole thread, and it makes me sad that some people still refuse for whatever reason to see what our government is doing... it literally makes me sick to my stomach!

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Monday, August 13, 2007 6:39 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
What do you mean you think they'd be cheering? They do it every day, every single day for years; alternately cheering, and defending, and emoting for their jihadist brothers...THEY SUPPORT EACHOTHER....greatly and almost lovingly assisting each team to attain their respective goals...
The Left is rooting for and doing everything possible to help the terrorists; a treasonous course of action designed to put their Howard Dean/Al Franken-approved candidates in office, and keep the current cast of Pelositic Pathetics chairing all the key committees that are responsible for gay love in maple trees being legal in front of my house...aka, their well-known agenda of godless, morality-challenged secular-progressive George Sorosesque mental masterbatory fantasy vision of America...while the terrorists use their useful idiots here in America and all over the world to forestall & weaken the world's resolve to unite against them. That video we all saw of Osama & Mull-Man Omar & Zawahiri all jumping & cheering at the buildings coming down on 911 was NOT about their success in killing thousands of innocent people of all religions and origins..NO NO...they were gleefully ecstatic and cheering with tears that it wasn't gonna take but a few minutes before the momentarily-silenced Left would be out in force as they hoped and counted on blaming America and Bush and Christianity & Jews for their little gift to us...heck, ... would send the Left into a frenzied overdose of happiness and joy....they'd all be out there in one of their Soros organized-funded demonstrations holding up signs (printed by Haliburton's silly protestors' sign division) with sayings like : We Love Islamic Beheaders, or Slit My Throat Next Achmed, and Clean Towels and Sheets For Our Al Qaida-Caucus Democrats Free Here, and Stone Me, My Bearded Brothers, I Peeked At Your Camel's Tits, etc. etc. And then Barbara Streisand would sing a benefit concert to raise millions for the muslim widows of the attackers.

Now how I miss such a fine

post ? Pardon me while I go and puke.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Monday, August 13, 2007 7:01 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Jong

"I'm still basically the same; and although I (like most) are mesmerized by the endless brutality of the terrorists ..."
The everyday religious non-terrorist nuts in Afghanistan are far worse, but I don't see you calling for US troops to 'reform' the country.

"... I don't worry about it in my daily life, ..."
Isn't that the criticism made of "the left"? (Which is anyone to the left of Bush/Cheney). The progressives just don't understand the seriousness of the problem. sigh

"I trust that our Government, Dems & Reps...Libs & Cons alike, will do what they can to protect us. I don't care about the fine print, so to speak, of how they do it...."
I say, leave Democracy to the Government ! Where it belongs !

"God forbid if there ever is a serious attack, and armies of Jihadists are combing through the streets of Weston, Florida looking for infidels to shoot..."
OMG, what paranoid fantasy world does this come from ?

"... as a last resort, some week-old dried out potato latkes."
Cyanide works better.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Monday, August 13, 2007 7:28 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Unlike you, Sig, I'm willing to take a pragmatic view on the issue. Why the hell didn't they just GET a FISA directive ? Maybe because they were afraid of leaks, as seems to be case.

Has the FISA Court ever leaked anything? No. There are 11 FISA judges, all appointed SINCE 2000. So how did you come up with this "leak" idea.. at least from the FISC? It doesn't seem to be grounded in reality. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Court

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 4:16 AM

What we got here.. is failure... to communicate, some men, ya just can't reach, and so, ya get what we had last week here, which is how he wants it... well, he gets it...

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 9:46 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Seems some would rather sabotage the President's office than see us track down the terrorists. Or it could be because Foreign Intelligence Suveillance Act is too slow by today's standards to be of any real benefit."

"Some would rather sabotage the President's office ..." Who are those "some" Rap ? Any evidence for it ? Please be specific.

While Joe Wilson and Val Plame don't technically count, as there was no real leak of any national security value, they did indeed lie in an attempt to harm the office of the President.

And as for other specifics, we have the NY Times, the L.A. Times and the Washington Post. All 3 are guilty of printing various stories on leaks which the administration specifically asked them NOT to run. One such leak was the SWIFT program.

" By all accounts, the program has been a ringing success. The administration maintains that the TFTP has been central to mapping terror cells and their tentacles, and to shutting off their funding spigot. It has resulted in at least one major domestic prosecution for providing material support to al Qaeda. It has also led to the apprehension of one of the jihad’s most insulated and ruthless operatives, Jemaah Islamiya’s Riduan Isamuddin, who is tied to the 2002 Bali bombing.

But as has happened with other crucial counterterrorism tools — such as the NSA’s program to monitor the enemy’s international communications, which the New York Times exposed, and the CIA’s arrangements for our allies to detain high-level Qaeda operatives, which the Washington Post compromised — the TFTP’s existence was disclosed to the Times and other newspapers by anonymous government officials, in violation of their legal obligation to maintain secrecy. The Bush administration pleaded with the newspapers not to publish what they had learned. But these requests, rooted in the national-security interests of the United States, were rebuffed. "

Feel better now ? I sure as hell don't.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 9:56 AM

MALBADINLATIN

And I don't like it any more than you do

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:01 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Here's the source, for anyone interested in reading the whole thing. It's that right-wing rag The National Review. http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDVhYWQzMmQ3YWRlNzFkYjRmZmY4ZTQzZ
mUwZjJhZjI=

Yes, I can see that the WashPost, the NYTimes anf the LATimes are all to blame. Somehow they coerced information, or they read tarot cards. It wasn't leaked by someone in the Bush administration itself. Nah, that would never happen.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:13 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Bush doesn't DARE ask the FISC for warrants because Auraptor thinks that Bush believes that his very own Court appointees are going to leak actual warrant info like a sieve??

Man the bilge pumps!

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Man the bilge pumps!

Some like to believe that seemingly random events are the work of God, who has a plan. Others believe that seemingly random wars are the work of Bush, who has a plan.

Others need no 'beliefs', and assess the merits or lack of same on a issue by issue basis. Damn logic...it has no place for foolishness...doesn't make one feel as comfy about things...presents challenges...

Why couldn't I be born stupid like the masses?!?!?!Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:47 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Why couldn't I be born stupid like the masses?!?!?!Chrisisall

Wow, what a great question Chris. What, IYO, led in becoming smarter than everyone else? Could it be genetic makeup? What about the whole nature vs. nuture argument. Did you get lots of love and support growing up that the masses did not? Was the environment where you grew up more conducive to logical thought than elsewhere in the country? Was it special schooling that led to your enviable position today or simply dumb luck. Perhaps by getting to the root of your intellectual success future generations of masses will no longer have to wallow in their own stupidity.

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:49 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Not to pick on you Rap, but I had to pick somebody ...

Here are some of your worst gaffes:

I'd think the Left wing would be cheering for the terrorist next time. I just think that next time, those on the Left will be cheering WHILE the attacks are going on ... I wasn't speaking of ALL the Lefties (the last bit is called a climb-down)

You mean shackle themselves to the womb to tomb mentality of the LEFT. That IS fucking sad. The Left is , by definition, womb to tomb Nanny state (making up facts as you go along)

OUR party is trying to do something important, like fight Islamic terroirst.(while quagmired in Iraq no less !)

It is the Liberal M.O., and it pisses you off that I nailed it dead to rights. You just don't like being called out on it. (What was the point again ??)

No,it's YOUR party which wants to drag out partisan investigation after investigation, screaming about Impeachment ... (Yes, the investigations have been dragging on for years - years - costing tens of millions of dollars already !)

None of MY freedoms have been taken away. (White republican. At least you still can vote, unlike some). Have yours ? (Shall I list the ways we've ALL lost our rights ? Naw, you wouldn't read it anyway.) Oh, you mean the 'freedom' to attack the sitting President when he's of a different political party ? That freedom? (Sounds like democracy to me.)

Why the hell didn't they just GET a FISA directive ? Maybe because they were afraid of leaks, as seems to be case. Seems some would rather sabotage the President's office than see us track down the terrorists. (Now who could that be ? People inside the WH ? I guess they could be those "some people" you speak about.)

The entire sum of your argument is that "the Left" (anyone who disagrees with Bush) hates Bush so much they support global Islamists. For proof you cite Churchill and Maher, "some people" who leak

, the newpapers, non-existent investigations. As opposed to you, the hero. It's a fucking joke.

Get over yourself, dude.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Perhaps by getting to the root of your intellectual success future generations of masses will no longer have to wallow in their own stupidity.

While there is no single answer, the main cause on my inflated intelect (relative the the average) would be curiosity- the need to know how things work. Most peeps are content not quite knowing how an internal combustion engine works, or how a virus is actually transmitted. Early curiosity can lead to neuron growth that might not normally occur. Exactly HOW that curiosity is stimulated is another few hundred answers...

He stoops to entertain Chrisisall

Edit to add: BDN, how's your IQ, btw? Stellar or Earthbound?

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 11:18 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
BDN, how's your IQ, btw? Stellar or Earthbound?

Neither, I would place myself somewhere in the tropo to mesospheric range.

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 11:19 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

For myself- pretty damn earthbound. I'm slow. Really. It takes me foreffingever to "get" something. I don't trust new ideas, not do I see the possibilities in new technologies. Maybe it has to do with being shy. So I have to grind on stuff 24-7. Seriously.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 11:23 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Professionals have told me I'm "bright", but I look at people all around and think I'm no smarter than they are. Except for a few people, who seem to make a point of being obtuse.

But, Chris, is all, and SignyM ... if I could be as smart as either of you, I'd feel lucky.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 2:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

But, Chris, is all, and SignyM ... if I could be as smart as either of you, I'd feel lucky.

Rue, this is strange to read, because I'd feel lucky to seem as bright as either you or Signy...

*would this constitute an intellectual circle-jerk?*

Puny 130 Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 2:23 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Well, where I work it's all a bunch of what are supposedly really smart people. But when I go on jury duty I think - man these people are effin' brilliant.

So maybe it's just me thinking the way I do. Though I seriously wonder why SignyM says (s)he's slow.

Circle jerk ? If being honest is a circle jerk, I suppose it is.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 3:25 PM