As if we need yet another thing to be pissed at... by fredgiblet

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

As if we need yet another thing to be pissed at...

POSTED BY: FREDGIBLET
UPDATED: Friday, September 21, 2007 12:42
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2233
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Friday, August 31, 2007 8:06 AM

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/08/30/torture-school-subje.html

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Friday, August 31, 2007 8:55 AM

Talking, fidgeting, or acting out during this "school" time is punished with shocks.

This is a joke. right? I can't tell; being a Liberal as I am I have no sense of humour...

Out of it Chrisisall

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Friday, August 31, 2007 9:30 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/school_of_shock.html

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, August 31, 2007 9:42 AM

Holy crap.
Did Bush graduate from there?

Astonished Chrisisall

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Friday, August 31, 2007 10:08 AM

I just saw a Law and Order episode loosely inspired by this school.

Everytime advocates and the state try to shut this place down, it is the parents who fight tooth and nail to keep it going.

It is an interesting dilemma. Not having been in the shoes of those parents, I try not to jump to their judgment. But the school is still horrifying to me.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

--------------
Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.

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Friday, August 31, 2007 10:13 AM

Gotta say, I'm having a hard time believing it. I've lived in or near Boston since 1995, and never heard a thing about this.

I sure hope it's not true! People can't really be this cruel and evil. Can they? Yeah, don't answer that...

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Friday, August 31, 2007 10:24 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Wow. No meds? What do you do if kids have seizures... as a lot of autistics have? Shock them for that too? Some parents are so against psychotropics that an elecric shock seems preferable. To them.

But I think this is a natural outgrowth of It's MY kid and I can do what I like with it Much as some of us don't like government intrusion into family life, this is exactly what results: the parents get what they want and it's not always a good thing.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, August 31, 2007 10:35 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Catholic nuns used to run centers for severely retarded/ handicapped/ deformed/ 'troubled' children. They never used electric shock so far as I know, though I can well imagine them hitting children with their rosaries. And the dangerously unstable people used to be kept in locked-up state wards, which admittedly could have used improvement. But with changes in concept and medicine - no longer 'charities' and 'asylums' with all their connotations - these types of places could be viable.

People wouldn't have to sent their children to a place where shocking children is a way of making money.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, August 31, 2007 10:56 AM

As a teacher, this is horrific...

...yet oddly appealing...

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, August 31, 2007 11:00 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I'm still trying to figure out how the nuns managed. (I went to a Catholic grade school and disobedience wasn't a problem ...)

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, August 31, 2007 11:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
As a teacher, this is horrific...

...yet oddly appealing...

AH, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

isall

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Friday, August 31, 2007 11:18 AM

You don't know the half of it.

No one has done any research, cause they don't WANT to know the answers, but most of the kids kill themselves within five years of leaving one of these programs.

Those few that somehow, someway, manage to "survive" - are forevermore broken people, unhealed wounds and ghosts of their past a constant set of claws upon their soul - and the hate, the rage, all buried deep and ready to explode, walking time bombs ready to blow.

Some few of us have a knack for untangling the skeins of these tortured souls, and we try, and sometimes even succeed, and in those cases, the former victims assist in our work to ensure this hidden nightmare is not visited on anyone else if we can prevent it.

http://isaccorp.org/
http://www.teenliberty.org/
http://www.nospank.net/main.htm
http://www.protect.org
And a new addition.
http://www.bacausa.com/

Worse is Mitt Romney and his direct political and financial supporters involvement in this stuff, there's few enough times I'll say "you don't wanna know."...

But really, most of you don't - just be aware that these bastards are out there, and of what they do, because if you dig too deep, you'll have nightmares forever.

-Frem

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Friday, August 31, 2007 11:25 AM

Sorry Frem- it's a serious matter to be sure.

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Friday, August 31, 2007 12:07 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Everytime advocates and the state try to shut this place down, it is the parents who fight tooth and nail to keep it going. It is an interesting dilemma. Not having been in the shoes of those parents, I try not to jump to their judgment. But the school is still horrifying to me.

For a while my child was just like some of these kids. But that's not the way I treated her and I would NEVER recommend treating someone this way. Especially self-injurious autistic kids. Can you imagine the kind of hell that they're going through internally when banging your head on a floor is a relief?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, August 31, 2007 12:25 PM

Don't sweat it Chris, dealing with the things I do, you have to have a real dark sense of humor as a pure survival trait - so even if I weren't pretty hard to offend in that manner, I doubt I would take offense from YOU, cause I know where your heart is....

Wait for it...

In the beer fridge, next to the pale ale.

-F

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Friday, August 31, 2007 12:43 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

'Sending kids away' isn't a new thing. As I said earlier, sending them to an 'institution' or a 'home' was an unspoken reality, or if they were semi-functional they were thrown out of the house at an early age - or left - and often ended up in jail.

I've read stories of parents with autistic, schizophrenic or bipolar kids who, of course, become physically uncontrollable as they get larger. One person I work with has a 'developmentally disabled' nephew who eventually burned the house down despite years of vigilance and loving home care. Another has a daughter who they locked in the room at night to keep her from hurting anyone in the family. A friend down the street has a step daughter who didn't respond to medication or behavior therapy and terrorized everyone in the family (including the grandmother she went to live with for a year). I can sympathize with parents who are desperate to maintain the safety of the child, their other children, and themselves.

What to do in the current environment (institutionalization is a no-no) is a real problem. While parents are responsible, they don't necessarily have the authority to institutionalize a child for whom they can't provide care. It's a no-win situation. So a few parents - relieved at being able to discharge some of their burden onto others - might fight for a school like that simply because it's the only place to turn to.

That that should be the only option is a travesty.

Blood lead level screening and treatment need to be done while women are pregnant, on their newborn babies, and on the children every six months afterwards to the age of 10. People need to have free or low-cost DHA (fish oil) supplementation for their children. I think that home help needs to be made more available, as well as mandatory programs for things like ADHD. (There is an excellent ADHD program at SUNY at Buffalo). All avenues for prevention and treatment need to be exhausted. But in the end (I'm probably going to be strongly disagreed with), I also think the rules for institutionalizing people need to be changed.

Desperate people with nowhere else to turn do desperate things.

As to that lady who preferred electric shock to drugs - I would hope that she'd spend a day - or two - in the school all wired up and ready to dance.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, August 31, 2007 12:44 PM

Frem, I really appreciate your presence on this board. I really appreciate your commitment. You ever think of writing an autobiography or anything drawing upon your experiences?

You ever read the early letters of Freud, back before he decided that the incest his patients were reporting were fantasies? Really interesting stuff. I remember one line that summed up the abuse phenomenon: "The child is the mute whore of the adult." This, from Freud!

Anyway, here's a really horrible joke for ya:

Q: How many incest survivors does it take to screw in a light-bulb?

A: I don't remember.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, August 31, 2007 1:17 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

We had to lock our daughter in house at night because of her distressing and dangerous tendency to go wandering. Some parents I know had to lock their children in their (bare) rooms at night, and some had to go farther than that. And you always get that queasy feeling that "someone" is going to call CPS ... either because you're locking your kid in or because they got out.

If parents have to resort to the measures of locking in/ restraining their children they should be able to get a court order for such. If they have to insitutionalize them, there really should be much more humane places where these children (mental age) can go.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, August 31, 2007 2:41 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

thought better

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, August 31, 2007 2:43 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm curious... Since you know our personal situation and apparently MANY people with potentially dangerous children - can you post anyway?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, August 31, 2007 3:38 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I didn't want to intrude on other people's privacy.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, August 31, 2007 4:11 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/30/AR2007
083002199.html?
hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR

Killer's Parents Describe Attempts Over the Years to Help Isolated Son

Sometimes, Hyang Im Cho would become so frustrated with her son, Seung Hui Cho, that she would shake him. He rarely spoke. And when he did, it was just a few words, barely above a whisper. He never looked anyone in the eye. Try as (his mother) might -- with countless visits to counselors and psychologists, treatment with antidepressants or art therapy, and attempts to find him friends at basketball camp or taekwondo or church -- no one could break through.

The panel's report, formally released yesterday, paints the most complete portrait to date of Cho's frail and sickly childhood; his hopeful middle and high school years bolstered by intensive psychological therapy, medication and a supportive school environment; his misplaced aspirations to become a famous writer; and, as that dream slipped away, his descent into madness.

In 1997, the summer before he entered middle school and on the school's recommendation, the family took Cho to the Center for Multicultural Human Services, where he saw an art therapist and a psychiatrist who diagnosed a severe social anxiety disorder. "It was painful to see," one of the psychiatrists told the panel. The Chos took turns leaving work early to get their son to his sessions every week. In art therapy, Cho made houses out of clay that had no windows or doors. Sometimes, when the therapist explained that his artwork showed how inadequate he must feel, Cho's eyes would fill with tears.

In 1999, during the spring of eighth grade, the clay houses morphed into disturbing caves and tunnels. Cho wrote in a school assignment about wanting to "repeat Columbine." A psychiatrist diagnosed selective mutism -- the inability to speak in certain circumstances because of profound social anxiety -- and prescribed paroxetine, an antidepressant. The drug treatment was discontinued after one year because Cho seemed much improved.

When Cho was at Westfield High School in Chantilly, his inability to communicate and lack of social skills landed him in a special education program designed to help him succeed in school. He was excused from participating in class discussions and received language therapy once a week. The plan enabled him to graduate with a 3.52 grade-point average in a demanding honors program. As a junior, he resisted further therapy. "There is nothing wrong with me," he complained to his parents, according to the panel report. "Why do I have to go?"

When Cho was a senior, his guidance counselor strongly encouraged him to attend a small college close to home. But Cho had his sights set on Virginia Tech, where he was accepted on the strength of his grades and SAT scores. When his school records were sent, as is common practice, there was no mention of the special education provisions or his condition.

At Virginia Tech, he became increasingly isolated and behaved in a bizarre manner, stabbing a carpet with a knife at a party and yelling at a teacher who told him to drop a class. His writing likewise became increasingly violent.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, August 31, 2007 6:52 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

It's like my SO says: there is hardware, firmware, and software. Some kids have obvious structural abnormalities, some kids with structurally normal brains function badly, and some kids with perfectly functional brains are "programmed" by hideous circumstances. It sounds like Cho was the middle kind of kid: apparently spontaneous pathology in a structurally normal brain.

If I had to pick a "site" as the center for such pathology it would be the thalamus. The thalamus is essentially a programmable switchboard. But more than that, it's the "clock" that makes sure that 'red" "round" "sweet" and "stem" combine to form "apple" because they occur at the same time in different areas of the brain. In addition, it apparently controls consciousness and awareness, depression, anxiety etc. It would have been interesting to have given this kid an MEG (magnetoencephalogram).

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 4:52 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm just going to add that it does without saying that electrically shocking anyone doesn't improve their brain function one whit.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 5:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Can you imagine the kind of hell that they're going through internally when banging your head on a floor is a relief?

I've never thought of it that way; VERY sobering thought.

Chrisisall

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 5:37 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

High-functioning autistics tell us what they're feeling and provide insight into other autistics' worlds.

But first, a little lesson on brain function.

When you experience a sensation long enough... the weight of your butt on the chair, the fold of cloth under your armpit, the whine of the computer, the lawnmower outside... your brain turns down the amplifier so that you no longer feel it so acutely. ONE of the problems with autistics is that their brains CAN'T filter sensation. Everything is there, all the time, at high volume. I recall reading an article where a high-functioning autistic noticed that his neighbor's electrical meter was running.... from a few hundred feet away! Even my daughter, who is not truly autistic but has many features of autism, has freakishly sensitive hearing: She can hear my keys jingling when I'm on the driveway and she's inside three rooms away with doors and windows closed. When she was little we had to cut off ALL of her clothing tags, and ... well, suffice it to say we tried very hard to make her world comfortable because she was so very very distressed all of the time.

It's hypothesized that what autistics are doing when they're banging their heads, or biting their fingers or tongues, or rippng thei skin open, is trying to "drown out" the overwhelming noise with one BIG noise that THEY can control.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 6:34 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

It's easy to be understandng about people who injure themselves, but what about CHO? Or THIS man:

Quote:
LANSING, Michigan (AP) -- A prison parolee and sex offender is the man suspected of killing five women in the city in a little more than a month, and he could face charges in a sixth death from 2004, authorities said Friday. Macon had been in prison off and on since 2001, returning twice for parole violations after serving more than a year and a half for larceny from a person, said state Corrections Department spokesman Russ Marlan. Macon also had an extensive juvenile criminal history, including two criminal sexual conduct offenses, breaking and entering, larceny, and unlawfully driving away an automobile, Marlan said.
"He spent most of his life in and out of foster care," he said.

Macon was arrested Tuesday on suspicion of not reporting to his parole officer and not registering as a sex offender, and on a breaking and entering warrant. He could face charges in the deaths this summer of Ruth Hallman, 76; Deborah Cooke, 36; Debra Renfors, 46; Sandra Eichorn, 64; and Karen Delgado Yates, 41. A number of the victims were beaten. Police also want Macon to be charged with the 2004 death of Barbara Jean Tuttle, 45.

Okay, this is an arrest not a conviction, but assuming that this guy is guilty what are we to do with him?

I know this is going to be a very unpopular notion because I don't like it much myself, but I think the concept of "free will" is about 90% bunk. So the notion of "punishment" as a way of moderating deviant behavior, and "vengeance" as a way of justifying our anger ... altho it makes gut-level sense to us .... is wrong.

What people don't realize is that underneath our human brain is a fully-functioning lizard brain. And MOST times we use our 2" of gray matter to rationalize what our lizard-brains have already decided! If the lizard-brain is misfiring... through prenatal exposure to drugs or developmental problems or deeply traumatic experience... punishment doesn't make it work better.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 10:01 PM

very interesting thread. inspired me to write a fic piece.

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 10:43 PM

Haven't you posted about schools such as this one on several occasions in here yourself before?

Possibly this very school?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, September 2, 2007 5:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Haven't you posted about schools such as this one on several occasions in here yourself before?

Possibly this very school?

Is this directed at me? If so then possibly but I don't think so, I know that Frem has posted on these places more than once and I might have but I don't remember.

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Sunday, September 2, 2007 6:30 PM

Yeah... actually I was speaking to Frem there. Sorry if I posted that to you. I didn't even post his name there.... losing my mind in my old age, I guess.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, September 3, 2007 4:56 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

There are doctors who believe that electroshock therapy has significant benefit in certain circumstances. The APA does support its use in treating disabling disorders. I’m not that familiar with it. I know that we turned down an opportunity for a fairly renowned doctor to use ECT on my brother, and looking back on it, I don’t know that we made the right decision. I think our decision was based on a superficial impression, and not on any real appreciation for the medicine behind it. If you don’t suffer from schizophrenia or some similarly disabling psychological condition it’s easy to be repulsed by the mention of ECT, but in recent years, I’ve come to think that schizophrenia is often the worse of the two, and the drugs that are used to treat it, often only have limited effect, but cause life-long brain-damage. If we had it all over to do again, I'm not sure we would have turned down the opportunity.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, September 3, 2007 6:10 AM

Electroshock therapy, used judiciously and carefully, has been shown to have some therapeutic effect for a number of conditions. Now whether the benefits are worth the risks, that is another debate.

The school in question, however, is NOT using electroshock therapy. It is using AVERSION conditioning, which is a whole different thing. It is using electric shocks to teach aversion to certain behaviors. They use the same tactic on pedophiles by shocking them whenever they see a picture of a child. Aversion conditioning works. The debate here is about ethics, not effectiveness. The question is whether we should be using torture to brainwash and "re-educate" a subset of our population.

Unlike electroshock therapy, which tries to tap into electricity as a medium for healing, aversion conditioning uses electric shocks solely for their pain value as punishment. There is nothing therapeutic about punishment. It is a "therapeutic" as restraining someone with physical chains. The two should not be confused because they both use electricity.

I strongly suspect that the parents are not championing this school for the therapeutic effects of electric shocks, but because it is the only school that would take their children. If there existed an alternative school that is willing to work with these kids without electric shocks, I am willing to bet most of these parents would transfer their kids immediately.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

--------------
Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.

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Monday, September 3, 2007 6:40 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I strongly suspect that the parents are not championing this school for the therapeutic effects of electric shocks, but because it is the only school that would take their children. If there existed an alternative school that is willing to work with these kids without electric shocks, I am willing to bet most of these parents would transfer their kids immediately.

I think a big part of why the parents support this school is because they see results from it. There aren’t many things more miserable then knowing that 20 years of your life will be spent in constant loveless struggle with a manipulative and hateful child. It’s enough to destroy lives and whole families. After a few years of this, if the child returns from a school and suddenly obeys and begins acting in a responsible or quasi-responsible way, even if the behavior is motivated by the fear of torture, it is amazingly easy to see this as a miracle cure.

And for some children, I think you do need to lay the hammer down, to get them to respond, but there is a fine line between discipline and torture. I’m not sure that line is always drawn in the same place for all children, which might make it hard to identity, but I’m certainly against crossing it.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, September 3, 2007 7:49 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I think a big part of why the parents support this school is because they see results from it. There aren’t many things more miserable then knowing that 20 years of your life will be spent in constant loveless struggle with a manipulative and hateful child. It’s enough to destroy lives and whole families. After a few years of this, if the child returns from a school and suddenly obeys and begins acting in a responsible or quasi-responsible way, even if the behavior is motivated by the fear of torture, it is amazingly easy to see this as a miracle cure.

I think you say this simply bc you haven't dealt will REALLY screwed-up kids. And I don't mean badly behaved I mean neurologically impaired, as many of these children seem to be.

First of all as Frem has pointed out, there have been ZERO independent studies on the effectiveness of this approach. So it hasn't been established whether or not this school "works", or whether or not it "works" better than other approaches. Secondly, the kids that really seem to "need" punishment the most are- in my experience- the ones least likely to respond to it because they are the ones most likely to be damaged or dysfunctional in some way: autistic, bipolar, brain-damaged, FAS etc.

The upshot of my experience is that if you try punishment on a young child and the kid just doesn't "get it" after a couple of swats then stop using punishment because it doesn't work. There are a lot of other ways to get kids to respond other than physical punishment. In our daughter's case we didn't get control over her behavior until we normalized her EEG with drugs.

I've come to understand that 90% of kids can be raised by 90% of adults but 10% of kids need something that just isn't "normal". Part of the problem is that parents take their kids' behavior personally. They see it as a failure if they have to restrain their kids, give them drugs, or do whatever they have to do to give their child some relief. They expect a reciprocity that their child may not be capable of. Sometimes the only thing you can do is protect your child from themselves, and protect your family from them. Sometimes ya just gotta see the kids as independent beings with problems and responses that have very little to do with you. Makes me wonder if there are any grownups in the household when I see that!

Might want to check out this site.

http://brain.hastypastry.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=115
http://brain.hastypastry.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=97

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, September 3, 2007 7:53 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I think you say this simply bc you haven't dealt will REALLY screwed-up kids. And I don't mean badly behaved I mean neurologically impaired, as many of these children seem to be.

Well, I think I say this because I have.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, September 3, 2007 8:00 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Really? I'm curious because I have too. Not only our daughter, who stroked out at birth, but lots of her classmates as well: kids with CP and autism and ODD and ADHD. So what's your experience?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, September 3, 2007 8:22 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

My little brother was diagnosed with schizophrenia. He was diagnosed with several things early on – bipolar, ADHD, hyperactivity, but by the time he reached his teens, schizophrenia seemed to be the consensus.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, September 3, 2007 8:31 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I understand that parents can be desperate to help their children, or at least get their children's behavior under control. So in light of your experience do you think having your little brother shocked would have helped?

It's unusual tho that he would show schizophrenia so early. I would look at the diagnosis again.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, September 3, 2007 8:39 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

He’s probably closing in on his 40s now, and he’s been in and out of psychiatric institutions all his life. I don’t know how certain schizophrenia can ever be diagnosed, but he’s been diagnosed plenty of times with it.

And I don’t know how affective ECT would have been, but I do know that some doctors have claimed that it can alleviate the symptoms of schizophrenia. In hindsight, knowing that nothing else worked, maybe we should’ve tried it, but shouldas are a dime a dozen.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, September 3, 2007 8:44 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

ECT (electroconvulsive therapy) is not what this school is doing. ECT is voltage applied to the brain- an artificial seizure. What this school is doing is shocking the student's skin in order to be painful.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, September 3, 2007 8:48 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Yes. I'm aware of the distinction.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, September 3, 2007 8:56 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

This seems like something you don't want to discuss. Yes, shouldas are a dime a dozen. I shoulda gotten on the inet sooner, and maybe I would have found our daughter's dx sooner. I shoulda tried reducing her Tegretol more when she was on the keto diet. I shoulda been more aggressive about finding a doctor who would try an experimental protocol (which wound up working).

I can look back and see dozens of consequential shouldas. I know that feeling well.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, September 3, 2007 9:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I think a big part of why the parents support this school is because they see results from it.

Yeah, aversion conditioning works, at least in the short term. Not to beat a dead horse, but I think the debate is ultimately whether aversion conditioning, no matter how well it works, is ethical. Is torture justifiable if it yields short term results?

Again, keep in mind electric shocks as punishment is very different from ECT used for therapeutic purposes. If your brother had had ECT, it wouldn't have been to punish him for a certain behavior.

Then, of course, as SignyM pointed out, there is little to no data supporting the long term effectiveness of aversion conditioning. This further begs the question of whether such torture is justifiable.

Obviously, for me, aversion conditioning with electric shocks, esp of very ill children, cannot be justified by such small and temporary benefits. In truth, I can't imagine justifying it even if the benefits were bigger and lasted longer. As Sig so well pointed out, we can't imagine the kind of pain they are in already; to add to that pain on purpose is just wrong.

I think the answer has got to come from offering the parents a viable alternative, instead of simply shutting the place down.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

--------------
Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.

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Monday, September 3, 2007 9:39 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Well, I’m reluctant to get too involved with this issue on a personal level, or any family issue for that matter, on an internet forum. I haven’t seen my brother in a long time, and I may never see him again. The time for helping my brother is passed though. He’s on his own.

But I don't think my brother is necessarily a good example of how these kinds of things turn out, and I fully expect that you and your daughter will have much more success. I certainly hope that is the case.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, September 3, 2007 9:43 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I think what happens is that parents and siblings... who start out loving ... become frustrated, hurt, and angry and then justify their actions (born of frustration) afterwards. This really wouldn't occur if family didn't care so much. It's a situation where everyone suffers.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, September 3, 2007 9:58 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Yeah, aversion conditioning works, at least in the short term. Not to beat a dead horse, but I think the debate is ultimately whether aversion conditioning, no matter how well it works, is ethical. Is torture justifiable if it yields short term results?

You make a distinction between ECT as being justified because it is for therapeutic purposes, but proponents of aversion therapy would insist that it’s for therapeutic purposes as well. To be totally honest, I’m not sure that I see the same distinction between inducing seizures by electrocuting someone’s brain and using electric shock to disincentive destructive or unhealthy behavior.

I really don’t know where the line is drawn, but I do know that condemning someone to a nightmarish life of psychological disability because we find the treatment offends our sensibilities is not helping anyone. It does seem like a fairly desperate approach, and shouldn’t be used indefinitely or without being certain that no other options are available. And frankly, I’m not all that optimistic about its likelihood of success either, but somewhere between what’s right and what’s wrong, there is a grey area, that some of us get stuck in, even though many of us try to pretend it doesn’t exist. I’m not sure what to do about those people, and I don’t think anyone else is either that’s why it’s grey, but I think sometimes we need to do what we can and see if it works.

That being said, I sometimes, wonder that aversion therapy may get used on children for which it is probably not warranted because it makes their parents’ life easier. I would say that could very well be crossing the line.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, September 3, 2007 10:42 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I really don’t know where the line is drawn, but I do know that condemning someone to a nightmarish life of psychological disability because we find the treatment offends our sensibilities is not helping anyone.

I'm not sure you can characterize these kids as having a "psychological" disability. The word seems to imply the the "programming" is wrong but the hardware and drivers are OK. I think they're tryng to "reprogram" kids who have faulty hardware and/or drivers. What makes it confusing is that like a lot of things in biology there's no clear-cut division between psychology and neurology because experience causes physical changes. Usually what works best is a combination of drugs AND counseling. But for some of the more involved kids the genesis of their issues is purely physical. a fairly desperate approach, and shouldn’t be use

Quote:
omewhere between what’s right and what’s wrong, there is a grey area, that some of us get stuck in, even though many of us try to pretend it doesn’t exist. I’m not sure what to do about those people, and I don’t think anyone else is either that’s why it’s grey, but I think sometimes we need to do what we can and see if it works.

I agree. Yanno, we trialed over a dozen drugs and several other therapies before we found what worked. As a veteran of the "try what works" wars, my experience is that you need to be brutally honest with yourself about what is "working" and what isn't. If it's so effective, why won't the head of the school let his method be independently reviewed?

www.villagevoice.com/news/0641,murphy,74685,6.html

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, September 3, 2007 11:00 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

A family member was diagnosed with seizures at an early age - around 2. The doctors started with standard therapy which was phenobarbital. And what had been a loving but disoriented little child became a pathologically cruel one who would intentionally entice you with smiles and arms upraised to get as close as possible - in order to poke you in the eye with utmost delight. There were a few of cycles of that - on phenol to control the seizures creating intentional, pathological behavior/ off phenol and loving, normal behavior with seizures *.

On phenobarbital you'd never guess that that behavior was anything but a purposeful choice. There was NO indication that it was a compulsion or, indeed, any type of driven behavior. It looked so freely done.

It made me realize how much of our personality, our choices, our intentions, are driven by things far below the surface of awareness.

* I later found out 30% of children on phenol have to be taken off of it for exactly this type of 'side effect'.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Monday, September 3, 2007 2:26 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I recall a dad posting in the inet about his son who would be sweet and nice until he tried to punch your lights out or cut himself. This boy- who was quite bright- also complained of severe headaches. everybody blew him off as a psycho malingerer. Whatever was wrong became much more overt when he started having seizures at age 9.

Interestingly, some of the anti-convulsants are good (in low doses) for bipolar disorder.

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Always look upstream.

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