5 Myths About Rendition (and the Movie Version) by Skywalken

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

5 Myths About Rendition (and the Movie Version)

POSTED BY: SKYWALKEN
UPDATED: Thursday, October 25, 2007 12:36
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Friday, October 19, 2007 3:30 PM

This information comes from Daniel Benjamin, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. He served on the National Security Counci staff during the Clinton Administration.

With hearings in Congress, legal cases bouncing up to the Supreme Court and complaints from Canada and our European allies, the issue of rendition is everywhere. There's even a new, eponymously titled movie in a theater near you, starring Reese Witherspoon as a bereft wife whose innocent husband gets kidnapped and Meryl Streep as the frosty CIA chief who ordered the snatch. Like most covert actions and much of the war on al-Qaeda, the practice is shrouded in mystery -- and, increasingly, the suspicion that it's synonymous with torture and lawlessness.

In fact, the term "rendition" in the counterterrorism context means nothing more than moving someone from one country to another, outside the formal process of extradition. For the CIA, rendition has become a key tool for getting terrorists from places where they're causing trouble to places where they can't. The problem is where these people are taken and what happens to them when they get there. As a former director for counterterrorism policy on the National Security Council staff, I've been involved with the issue of rendition for nearly a decade -- and some of these myths need to be cleared up.

1. Rendition is something the Bush administration cooked up.

Nope. George W. Bush was still struggling to coax oil out of the ground when the United States "rendered to justice" its first suspect from abroad. In 1987, President Ronald Reagan authorized an operation that lured Lebanese hijacker Fawaz Younis to a boat off the coast of Cyprus, where FBI agents arrested him. (Younis had participated in the 1985 hijacking of a Jordanian plane and was implicated in the hijacking of TWA Flight 847, which left a U.S. Navy diver dead.) President George H.W. Bush approved the kidnapping in 1990 of Mexican physician, Humberto Alvarez Machain, who was believed to be involved in the torture and killing of a Drug Enforcement Administration official. Nothing says that renditions can only involve only suspected terrorists; Israel's abduction of Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in Argentina in 1960 could be called a rendition, though the term was not yet in use.

Beginning in 1995, the Clinton administration turned up the speed with a full-fledged program to use rendition to disrupt terrorism plotting abroad. According to former director of central intelligence George J. Tenet, about 70 renditions were carried out before Sept. 11, 2001, most of them during the Clinton years.

2. People who are "rendered" inevitably end up in a foreign slammer -- or worse.

Actually, that's not a foregone conclusion. Alvarez was brought to the United States. So was Mir Aimal Kansi, who killed two CIA employees in their cars outside the agency's Langley headquarters in 1993, and Ramzi Yousef, the architect of the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. Both were apprehended in Pakistan, whose leaders decided that the nation would rather not have those two -- folk heroes to some -- sitting in jail, awaiting extradition. Pakistan's leaders feared that cooperating with the United States would be dangerously unpopular, so they wanted the suspects out of the country quickly. For many pro-U.S. Muslim leaders, that concern has only deepened as anti-Americanism has soared.

By my count, most renditions since 1995 have involved moving individuals from one foreign country to another -- not grabbing someone in Washington and carting them off to North Africa, as happens to Witherspoon's onscreen husband. Such operations typically occur in secret because, again, Muslim leaders (especially in the Arab world) want to shield their cooperation with Washington from their anti-American publics. The CIA has acted as a go-between, arranging the transfers and providing transportation. Usually those being rendered are not brought to the United States because, while the U.S. government may have an abundance of intelligence showing their malfeasance, it doesn't have enough courtroom evidence. There's a big difference between the two.

One other safeguard: During the Clinton years, the United States required the country that received a rendered person to have some kind of legal process against the suspect -- an arrest warrant or indictment, for example. It's not clear whether that is still the case. Perhaps Michael Mukasey, President Bush's attorney general nominee, can check.

3. Step one of a rendition involves kidnapping the suspect.

The individual may feel as though he's being kidnapped, but that's not usually what's going on. Most of the time, the person is detained by the authorities of the country he is in. They will then hand him off to the CIA, who will fly him to his destination.

In rare cases when the country of residence is a hostile one, an "extraordinary rendition" can be carried out: a covert effort to abduct the suspect and spirit him out of the country. The CIA put considerable time into efforts to capture Osama bin Laden this way from Taliban-ruled Afghanistan in the late 1990s. Had it worked, it would have been an extraordinary rendition -- and Americans would have cheered.

4. Rendition is just a euphemism for outsourcing torture.

Well, not historically. The guidelines for Clinton-era renditions required that subjects could be sent only to countries where they were not likely to be tortured -- countries that gave assurances to that effect and whose compliance was monitored by the State Department and the intelligence community. It's impossible to be certain that those standards were upheld every time, but serious efforts were made to see that they were. At a minimum, countries with indisputably lousy human rights records (say, Syria) were off-limits. Another key difference: Renditions before Bush were carried out to disrupt terrorist activity, not to gather intelligence or interrogate individuals.

Now, though, the Bush team seems to have dramatically eroded such safeguards. The administration has apparently sent someone to Syria, and Khaled el-Masri, a German citizen, was evidently boosted in Macedonia and interrogated in Afghanistan in a manner that sure sounds like torture. In light of this and other revelations, the criticism that the administration has "defined down" torture looks pretty persuasive. It's probably a good bet that Congress or the next administration will reform the program, or abolish it outright.

5. Pretty much anyone -- including U.S. citizens and green card holders -- can be rendered these days.

Not so, although the movie "Rendition" -- in which Witherspoon's Egyptian-born husband gets the black-hood treatment and is yanked from a U.S. airport and taken to a North African chamber of horrors -- is bound to spread this myth. A "U.S. person" (citizen or legal resident) have constitutional protections against being removed from the country through rendition, and there have been no incidents to suggest the contrary.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/19/AR2007
101900835_pf.html

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 8:40 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

3 years ago.

White old man.

His white wife is a Dr and a US citizen.

They are not illegal aliens from Mexico.

They lived in my hometown of Seymour Tennessee.

He was rendered, kidnapped and falsely arrested by police state death squads, without charges, without trial.

He was TORTURED by killer dogs in a death camp gulag (Blount County Justice Center in Tennessee). This is outside the jurisdiction he was falsely arrested in.

A pedophile judge in that "Justice Center" is now under arrest and on trial for raping a kid in that "Justice Center".

For the non-crime of a routine $50 civil traffic ticket, the only way for females to escape a life sentence on death row in that death camp is suicide. Civil contempt of court is a life sentence on death row in every city and state in USA, no bail or appeal allowed. Ask Joe Francis of Girls Gone Wild.
www.meetjoefrancis.com/legalstory/

He was denied habeus corpus in federal court in Knoxville Tennessee.

He was illegally deported to Canada, without charges.

He rotted for two years in Canada, without charges, without trial.

He was deported to ZioNazi Germany, without charges.

He was tortured in prison, without bail.

His wife is not allowed to visit him in Germany, or she might be arrested.

After several years of torture, he got a secret trial, but no transcript or tape recording was allowed.

His lawyer was arrested for defending him with facts and evidence.

There was no alleged victim of this thought crime.

After a show trial, he was found guilty and sentenced to 5 years prison. No time reduced fro the 3 years he already spent in prison.

At his age, this is probably a death sentence.

His crime?

He published a history book, written by a British author.

You can read that burned, banned and censored book, for free:
www.zundelsite.org/english/harwood/Didsix01.html

In USA today, police state death squads summarily execute over 800 US citizens every year, for routine traffic non-crimes, without crime victim, including summary execution of 1/3rd innocent bystanders, no trial and no appeal allowed.. Summary execution by electrocution has genocided 300 US citizens, so far, no trial and no appeal allowed.

Here's hidden audiotape of 5 US traffic cops torturing a man in his own home in USA, using a baseball bat, electrodes attached to his genitals, drowning, and a loaded gun in his mouth:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3386531596598980684&hl=en

Keifer Sutherland is now sentenced to 48 days torture in a death camp gulag, for his 4th DUI victimless crime. Serves him right for selling torture on 24 for Fox TV, which is owned by Communist Chinese citizen Deng Wen Di, for Communist China to overthow USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendi_Deng

www.piratenews.org/pntv-schedule.html

Commie China even built the Great Steel Wall of USA, to "protect" it from Communist Mexico, with built-in tunnels for the invading army of 10s of millions of illegal aliens.
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/10/18/418705.aspx?p=1

Mexican US border fence built by Commie China for US Govt

Quote:

"How can I get the Captain to shoot a cop in the face, and make it right? That extra moment of sadism - that's the thing that says it's okay, buddy, you're not up to spec, you're going down!"
-Joss the Boss, Serenity DVD Director's Commentary, censored Episode 1 "Serenity"

"On Earth-That-Was, the two ruling powers were once known as America and China. Though their empires remained separate, the two powers worked together throughout the colonization process, their cultures - as so many had - melding at many levels. Londinium, called so after the Roman name for England's capital (a country long before annexed by America in a somewhat ironic reversal), represented what was once the American Empire. Sinon ('SEE-non,' a bastardization of Sino, our word for 'Chinese') was the new China, basically. These two powers, still working in harmony, grew at once into the most populous and advanced civilizations in the new galaxy."
-Joss Whedon, Serenity: The Official Visual Companion

Does that seem right to you?
www.megavideo.com/?v=JVT35GR8
www.scifi.com/onair/

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 9:02 PM

LEADB

PN,
I'd like to verify your quote, PN "How can I get the Captain to shoot a cop in the face, and make it right?" Where is that on the DVD?

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 9:10 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
PN,
I'd like to verify your quote, PN "How can I get the Captain to shoot a cop in the face, and make it right?" Where is that on the DVD?

FUKN great quote, aint it?

I think it's on the SERENITY DVD, director's commentary. The original DVD, not the new Australian version (don't know what's on it).

RENDITION looks like a good movie. I've got new respect for Reese Witherspoon.

http://www.renditionmovie.com/trailer.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendition_%28film%29

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 9:30 PM

LEADB

I'll go dig.

Regarding the 'did 6 million die' item above; do you agree with the assertion of the material, or just concerned with how this person has been treated for publishing the material?

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 9:48 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

The purpose of rendition and torture is to get false confessions from innocent patsies. Real intelligence can only be gathered from phone taps and undercover investigations. The real terrorist bombers are the US Govt, British Govt and NATO Govts, in Operation Northwoods and Operation Gladio, including on 9/11/2001. Google it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331
www.september911surprise.com
www.piratenews.org/911con.html

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
I'll go dig.

Regarding the 'did 6 million die' item above; do you agree with the assertion of the material, or just concerned with how this person has been treated for publishing the material?

Every writer and publisher and historian has a right and a duty to investigate and report on facts, assertions and allegations. That's called news reporting.

What his book says is that the Nazi Govt did kill 100,000s of Jews (mainly by starvation due to Allied embargo), and millions of other people in WW2. This book asserts that the 6-million total Jews killed is a false statistic. Zundel writes that over 20-million non-Jewish Germans were killed by the Allied govts during WW2. What about them? The Germans STILL don't have their own govt or nation after WW2, but Israel got a free nation stolen from the Arab Semites.

This allegation is now CONFIRMED by Jewish historians in Europe, including at the former "death camp" museums in Eastern Europe. Even the Jewish govt in Germany has ERASED all Jewish names from the govt tombstones at the "death camps", because none of the names can be confirmed.

It's my information and belief that 6-million never died in Nazi death camps, that perhaps the number was between 300,000 and 600,000. Obviously, one death is too many, one death is a murder punishable by death, and this is why GUN BANS must never be tolerated in USA or any other nation, because citizens must always be ready to defend themselves from police and politicians BY KILLING THEM. Read the Gulag Archipelago.

George Bush Jr's grandfather Senator Prescott Bush was Hitler's bankster DURING WW2, and bastard Rockefeller Bill Clinton Blythe's uncles supplied Hitler with oil DURING WW2. Trillionaire Rabbi David Rockefeller is still publishing books and giving speaches bragging how he's overthrowing USA today for the New World Order. Google can tell you all about it.

WW2 was a scam, to enslave 100,000,000s of white people (and everyone else), and to genocide 55-million people.

My uncle was on a B17 crew during WW2, and I published several magazine aricles about it, resulting in him representing all POWs in WW2 at the White House:
http://geocities.com/snetterton_b17_pow_mia

According to Jewish historians on CSPAN and History Channel, Adolf Hitler Shicklegruber Rothschild was a JEW (Khazar AshkeNAZI non-Semite), as were all the top Nazis, as were 150,000 soldiers and Gestapo agents, including the director of the Final Solution death camps. Google can tell you all about it.

As a Rothschild, Hitler was heir to half the world's wealth, morgaged with counterfeit money by the private Jewish banksters, which prints all "dollar bills" in USA, and collects and keeps all VOLUNTARY US income taxes (which are never paid to the US Govt). Rothschilds founded Israel, and Hitler was a Zionist with his own rabbi. Google can tell you all about it.

I lived in Germany, and got married in Germany. It was very creepy knowing that former govt perped the Final Solution, and that the US Govt still occupied that nation in the 1980s. How would US citizens feel about being occupied for 50 years? (As Communist China and Fascist Mexico are doing NOW)

In the US Air Force in England, our nuke bombs were targeted at WESTERN Germany, not at Communist Eastern Europe... That was confessed to me by my boss, as I loaded the nukes on supersonic bombers, as senile President Reagan went on live TV, saying, "I have just signed legislation outlawing Russia forever - the bombing begins in 5 minutes." FOR REAL.

As for torture and rendition, my former mayor of Knoxville Tennessee is now running death camps for the CIA in Poland. He was promoted to ambassador to get him out of USA, since he's George Bush Jr's homosexual lover, according to a candidate for governor of Nevada and US Senate, who was their dominatrix, as reported in her autobiography this year:

http://lustfulutterances.com

I still have felony charges filed against Ambassador Victor "Victoria" Ashe, refiled in US District Court and with US Attorney General last month:

www.piratenews.org/newslinks.html

Hopefully Skull & Boner Ashe will be rendered and tortured to death in Gitmo, along with Georges Bush.

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:52 PM

LEADB

300,000 would be sufficient to satisfy my 'outrage' quota, for whatever that is worth. I believe there is sufficient documentation to support 3.5 million as a lower number. I believe that folks can argue a range upwards of 5.8 million in 'good faith'.

Even if the number is 'just' 300,000; I'd still stand behind the concept of 'never again.'

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 5:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, they're dead... while the exact numbers might be in doubt, they're dead, those who did it are dead, everyone involved is worm food, you see.

And the only real legacy they leave us is the lesson.

And as I watch Isreal gleefully do to Palestine, what Hitler did to Poland, only over a more prolonged period of time - I cannot for the life of me, feel any sympathy for them.

Sorry.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 5:48 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
I lived in Germany, and got married in Germany.

PN, you're married?! Huh, ya learn somethin new everyday. What were you doing in Germany?

Frem, I have no love at all for the state of Israel. But I really can't withdraw my sympathy for millions of Holocaust victims because they happen to have a f**king evil govt. Whatever their govt is doing in the name of victimization now, they didn't deserve to be victimized then.

Sort of how I can't withdraw sympathy from 9/11 victims just because we have a f**king evil govt that is milking that tragedy for all it's worth (or maybe even perpetrated it).

Just my perspective.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 6:35 AM

FREMDFIRMA

I take your point, CTS - I just spare my sympathies for the living, as they need it more.

And boy do some of them ever, watching the casualties stack up here from a certain so-called wonder drug, and good-golly-gee, look how FAST it dropped off the mainstream media radar when the deaths and complications started piling up...

And so are the class actions, four and counting, been busy trying to help coordinate into a single, and it's serious enough that stock holders are screaming "sell, sell!" before the inevitable.

And if one doesn't understand what I speak of, good for you - I've no patience left for discussing THAT topic with folks who's naive and meek acceptance has lead us to this pass... but if you want a fucking hint, go check the VAERS database and get back with me.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 7:19 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Hey Frem, thanks for the links you send me on Gardasil. The last one had a doozer in the comment section. (Please forgive this temporary hijack.)

http://womenmatter.typepad.com/women_matter/2007/03/gardasil_tell_e_1.
html

-----------

The whole concept of "rendition," even without the myths, is odious to me. It is part of the Jack Bauer mentality, that certain levels of torture, kidnapping, and imprisonment without due process is morally justified if it is thought to prevent crimes to more people. It doesn't sit well with me, and smacks of the same sort of moral erosion that makes Israel what it is today.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:51 AM

SERGEANTX

In response to the 'myths'. So what?

None of these mis-perceptions about rendition have any bearing on how wrong it is. But thank you for playing.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 1:47 PM

LEADB

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Well, they're dead... while the exact numbers might be in doubt, they're dead, those who did it are dead, everyone involved is worm food, you see.

And the only real legacy they leave us is the lesson.

Agreed, which was basically my point. I might have been understated.

Quote:

And as I watch Isreal gleefully do to Palestine, what Hitler did to Poland, only over a more prolonged period of time - I cannot for the life of me, feel any sympathy for them.

Sorry.

-Frem

Of course, then the question is, what is the lesson? I did not mean "Let's all feel mushy sorry for Isreal." They have at least as much contribution to the on-going misery in the middle east as any, and more than some.

The lesson is, when the Government comes for 'them', you might want to help 'them' because when the Government runs out of "them's", they might be coming after you.

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 3:38 PM

FREMDFIRMA

"The lesson is, when the Government comes for 'them', you might want to help 'them' because when the Government runs out of "them's", they might be coming after you."

That's exactly it, but most folk can not, will not, accept that.

They live in this illusion, this phony little plastic bubble world where they are the hero of the story and bad things only happen to other people.

And then it happens to them.

And then, IF they survive, physically and mentally...
(most of em just meltdown, implode or self destruct upstairs when it does happen)

They become very angry, and usually lash out in a fashion that gets them laughed at and discredited by the folks still in their bubble, leading to a second breakdown, and so on and so forth.

By the time the truth comes clear to most folk, they're already circling the drain in effectiveness and mental resiliance, and unless someone nasty enough to survive lookin at the world that way throws em a rope and hauls em up... cares enough to bother...

They sink.

Not a very nice way of puttin it, but time for nice has long since gone and passed, and the facts remain the facts, such as they are - no one is ever gonna thank you for smashing their bubble, even if you could.

Call me cruel if you will, but there's even a certain satisfaction at watching some of em sink, done in by some of the very actions they at one time rabidly supported, till they found themselves on the recieving end.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record about it, I use the sig line I do for a very good reason... some things should never ever be forgotten, nor the events that lead to them.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 3:42 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Speaking of who to feel sorry for, I always cry when I read about these people.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2195924,00.html

Quote:
Nufar Yishai-Karin, a clinical psychologist at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, interviewed 21 Israeli soldiers and heard confessions of frequent brutal assaults against Palestinians, aggravated by poor training and discipline....

The soldiers described dozens of incidents of extreme violence. One recalled an incident when a Palestinian was shot for no reason and left on the street. 'We were in a weapons carrier when this guy, around 25, passed by in the street and, just like that, for no reason - he didn't throw a stone, did nothing - bang, a bullet in the stomach, he shot him in the stomach and the guy is dying on the pavement and we keep going, apathetic. No one gave him a second look,' he said.

The soldiers developed a mentality in which they would use physical violence to deter Palestinians from abusing them. One described beating women. 'With women I have no problem. With women, one threw a clog at me and I kicked her here [pointing to the crotch], I broke everything there. She can't have children. Next time she won't throw clogs at me. When one of them [a woman] spat at me, I gave her the rifle butt in the face. She doesn't have what to spit with any more.'

Yishai-Karin found that the soldiers were exposed to violence against Palestinians from as early as their first weeks of basic training. On one occasion, the soldiers were escorting some arrested Palestinians. The arrested men were made to sit on the floor of the bus. They had been taken from their beds and were barely clothed, even though the temperature was below zero. The new recruits trampled on the Palestinians and then proceeded to beat them for the whole of the journey. They opened the bus windows and poured water on the arrested men.

...The soldiers described how the violence was encouraged by some commanders. One soldier recalled: 'After two months in Rafah, a [new] commanding officer arrived... So we do a first patrol with him. It's 6am, Rafah is under curfew, there isn't so much as a dog in the streets. Only a little boy of four playing in the sand. He is building a castle in his yard. He [the officer] suddenly starts running and we all run with him. He was from the combat engineers.

'He grabbed the boy. I am a degenerate if I am not telling you the truth. He broke his hand here at the wrist, broke his leg here. And started to stomp on his stomach, three times, and left. We are all there, jaws dropping, looking at him in shock...

'The next day I go out with him on another patrol, and the soldiers are already starting to do the same thing."

Anyone who has researched the Arab Israeli conflict adequately will know these types of stories can be corroborated by any number of human rights groups including Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem (Israeli human rights group), the Refusniks, etc.

Leadb wrote:

Quote:
The lesson is, when the Government comes for 'them', you might want to help 'them' because when the Government runs out of "them's", they might be coming after you.

I love this! Right on the money. May I quote you?

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 4:02 PM

LEADB

You are welcome to quote me; but I will say I was paraphrasing those before me (and might have fairly directly quoted). If I can 'bring to front of mind' the reference, I will.

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 4:46 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

I guess it depends on what you mean by “them.” If by “them” you mean “palestinian terrorists” or “child molester” then, as far as I’m concerned, if you decide to help “them” obstruct the law, you probably deserve what you get.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 5:08 PM

LEADB

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I guess it depends on what you mean by “them.” If by “them” you mean “palestinian terrorists” or “child molester” then, as far as I’m concerned, if you decide to help “them” obstruct the law, you probably deserve what you get.

Ok. Some folks need the long version.

'Them' is the 'defined enemy of the moment'. For Hitler, it was the Jews, gays, Gypsies, physically defective, and started wandering toward anyone not sufficiently 'Arian'. And if they happened to grab someone solely for political reasons, oh well, they could probably find some worthy 'defect', it's not like they would have to explain the reasons to a judge. I am speaking of neighbors who are decent but in some way identifiably different. Racial lines are often preferred for these criteria because they are visible.

When they go after the 'Palestinian' regardless of the 'terrorist' portion, -that- is when it becomes problematic. Have -proof- that will stand up in court, by a jury of peers, in a just criminal system and I will no more stand up to defend these folks than you.

Is this clear enough for you? If not, please advise on the particulars where you suspect it would be 'ok' to lock someone up and that you think I might object.

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 5:17 PM

LEADB

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Speaking of who to feel sorry for, I always cry when I read about these people.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2195924,00.html
Quote:

...
'The next day I go out with him on another patrol, and the soldiers are already starting to do the same thing."

Anyone who has researched the Arab Israeli conflict adequately will know these types of stories can be corroborated by any number of human rights groups including Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem (Israeli human rights group), the Refusniks, etc.

Leadb wrote:
Quote:
The lesson is, when the Government comes for 'them', you might want to help 'them' because when the Government runs out of "them's", they might be coming after you.
I love this! Right on the money. May I quote you?

Ah, apparently the song I was struggling to remember had the basis of the lyrics from this poem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

--- was a bit on the run when I replied before; read all of your quote above. Yes, there's wrongs on both sides. Those who train, support, arm the suicide bombers & the rocket launchers on one side; and the atrocities like you have referenced above on the other. That's the hard part to peace; to somehow realize there can't be revenge upon revenge. That somewhere the hatchet must be buried, to wipe the slate clean and start anew. I don't know if that will ever be possible in the Mid-East, but I see nothing to do but try.

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 5:33 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Is this clear enough for you? If not, please advise on the particulars where you suspect it would be 'ok' to lock someone up and that you think I might object.

It was clear enough the first time, but the point is there are people in this thread who are equating Israel’s defense against Palestinian terrorists to the Nazi’s Final Solution. And you really have to be one of the most naïve people on the planet to think that analogy holds.

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 6:13 PM

SKYWALKEN

Haha, Rendition bombed at the box office.

I suppose the makers of the film will oppose efforts to find the perpetrators of the bombing.

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20071021/D8SDQAN00.html

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Monday, October 22, 2007 1:58 AM

LEADB

[post withdrawn. After pondering a bit, I realized I tried to briefly 'tie off' a thread, but did so in such a way my words could be misinterpreted yet again. Will reply later when I have time to give a comprehensive comment that (with any luck at all) will say what I mean, and be interpretable by most folks to meant what I meant.]

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Monday, October 22, 2007 3:16 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Don't let em get to you, Leadb - they're just rabidly defending their bubbles, is all.

Beyond pointing out the obvious similarity, I've no intention of discussing the matter cause no logic, reason or evidence is ever gonna penetrate those bubbles, and thus it becomes pointless to even try - I guess it's a whole lot easier to sleep at night when you cut it into black and white and pick the side that's obviously winning.

In fact, most discussion here has ground to a halt, cause folks don't discuss, they just bring petty personal and partisan hatreds into each and every thread and grind their axes regardless of the topic - whatever middle ground once existed, is now a DMZ, and in this I see a microcosm of what I see around me in society every day, the foundations of a second civil war, here, in america.

Nobody is discussin or reasoning anymore, just pickin a side and diggin in while lobbing shells at the other side... one side refuses to compromise, one side doesn't dare, and most people are just quietly preparing for the worst.

I know I am.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:34 PM

LEADB

I'll keep that in mind, Frem. I will warn I'm rather determined to stay out there in the Middle till the firing starts... if for no other reason to see if I can at least understand (if not agree) with the various sides. I realize that might be dangerous; perhaps my tombstone will read "He understood (idiot!)"

I've decided that since Finn indicated I was 'clear enough' I really don't need to post further. If someone wants to contest that was -not- the point they were making, I'll leave that to them.

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Tuesday, October 23, 2007 6:42 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
I've decided that since Finn indicated I was 'clear enough' I really don't need to post further. If someone wants to contest that was -not- the point they were making, I'll leave that to them.

Yes, I understood what you were saying and I agree with it in principle, but you can’t just apply it anytime you want because you don’t agree with the policies of a certain country or administration. Israelis are struggling to maintain the freedom and prosperity they have, which can’t survive if groups like Hamas and Hezbollah get their way. That doesn't meant that Israel always necessarily does the right thing, but it certainly means they aren't Nazi Germany by a long shot. So many people, however, never seem interested in looking at it from that side.

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 3:48 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Looking back in history one must come to the conclusion that the UN creation of the State of Israel was a collossal mistake.

Yes...Jews were persecuted and murdered in Europe by the millions
Yes...The liberated death camp internees had no where really to go after liberation
Yes...The civilized world felt embarrased and ashamed at what the Nazis and their prods all over Europe had done to human beings, women & children

Yes, Yes, Yes....BUT creating Israel was not a viable answer. It has caused 60 years or wars and death, 60 years of hatred and dis-harmony....60 years of off & on mayhem, and perhaps the near-future fuse that will ignite WWIII.

The million or so Jews that first emigrated to Israel could easily have been re-settled in America & England. Putting them side-by-side with Arabs & Muslims was short-sighted and insane. Maybe this was the first example of "political correctness", but the ramifications of decades of hate & death prove that it was indeed a huge mistake. And this huge mistake has come back to haunt the West in spades. All this Al Qaida shit & fundamentalist shit, and Saudi Arabia shit, and Palestinian shit etc etc etc stems from that mis-guided implementation after WWII.

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:40 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Actually Jong, historically.. prior to that point the Jews had often sought shelter with the Arabic peoples from Christian persecution, and they had a history of mutual support up to an including agreements like the Medina Compact.

They got along pretty well, all things considered, and that is just one of the things that makes the current conflict that much sadder.

-F

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:11 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The initial agreement was to settle something like 100,000 Jews in Palestine. The Jews "stuffed the ballot box" so to speak by jamming in over a million settlers and presenting the world with a fait accompli. Ben Gurion "he challenged British authority by organizing mass "illegal" immigration and set de facto boundaries for a Jewish state by establishing Jewish settlements in all parts of the country...In 1948, as head of the provisional government, David Ben-Gurion proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel and the beginning of the "ingathering of the exiles" - "
www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts%20About%20Israel/State/David%20Ben-Gurion

The Israel began as an illegal state.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:32 PM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Actually Jong, historically.. prior to that point the Jews had often sought shelter with the Arabic peoples from Christian persecution, and they had a history of mutual support up to an including agreements like the Medina Compact.

They got along pretty well, all things considered, and that is just one of the things that makes the current conflict that much sadder.

That is quite true and very interesting. If I'm not mistaken it was Arafat and the PLO which first invented this whole concept of terrorism against Israel on a large scale, and he wasn't even Palestinian. He did it ALL solely for money and power...He is the original, the prototype, which led to the current "production model" copycats like BIn Laden and the rest of the "pseudo-Jihadist" motherfuckers.

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Wednesday, October 24, 2007 4:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Incorrect, Jong.

What sparked the fight originally was the actions of a group called the Irgun, or Etzel, who acted aggresively against the locals.

When I say "got along, comparitively" I meant just that, there were plenty on both sides who hated each other, and there were incidents, but that goes all the way back to biblical times - not to sound anti-semetic (actually, the arabs are semites too, believe it or not) but these folk were always an uneasy neighbor, which lead to all amount of trouble throughout history.

Anyhow, what really lit the fuse on the powder keg was the mass exodus of Jews form europe during the runup and beginnings of WWII, eventually it became the intent of the Irgun to secure enough land for those people - and you do know the one, and the only, way you take land from someone in the middle east, right ?

By killing everyone on it.

Now, the Arab cultures place a somewhat higher value on hospitality and related rights than we do (see also: Pashtunwali) and to engage in aggression against someone who has offered you sanctuary or hospitality is one of the deepest cultural violations possible - guaranteed to provoke a lethal response.

So, the Jews viewed it as a desperate land grab to ensure the survival of their people.

But the Arabs viewed it as a murderous backstab upon the very people who offered them sanctuary.

They've hated each other ever since - and the official recognition of Isreal as a country given it's founding was a slap in the face to the local Arab cultures, and one they have never forgotten.

It's not as black and white as that, both sides have done pretty horrible things to the other, and believed they were right, or at least had little choice, in the doing of them.

What's worse is that both concepts had actual merit at the time, so you have two "right" answers, and still wind up with a mutual massacre.

The wrong is that this slaughter still goes on today - and if you look at the historical maps between 1930-2007, you will clearly see why, cause of what I said about how you take turf over there... and they've never stopped taking land, not once.

Originally, both sides may have been "right" but as they get closer and closer to being pushed right into the sea, the Palestinians fear they are fighting, and losing terribly, for their own survival, and it was from that fear that Arafat and the PLO were born, in much the same fashion as the Irgun were - when a people are fighting for what they earnestly believe is their own mere survival, they'll do a lot of awful things they normally would not have.

It's an insane situation with few honest, and no easy answers... and well worth some research before you discuss it, which I normally would not, but I figure some insight into the minds and hearts of both sides is worthwhile for you to better understand the situation.

Or, you could recite stuff handed down by partisan shills for one side or the other, like most folk do.

I might not like you, Jong, but I know damn well you got a brain, and there's no excuse to not use it.

Related linkage here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 12:19 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

And of course, the system always works
(AKA Fuck you. Zero,)

Quote:

ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- Willie "Pete" Williams had no idea when he was pulled over by police that the criminal justice system was about to steal away half his life. Willie "Pete" Williams, 45, spent half of his life behind bars for a 1985 rape he did not commit. Sitting in the flashing glow of Atlanta squad car lights along Georgia State Road 400, the 23-year-old part-time house painter didn't know police were looking for a rapist who had struck nearby three weeks earlier.

Police questioned -- and then arrested Williams, triggering a series of mistaken witness identifications that led to his unjust conviction for rape, kidnapping and aggravated sodomy.

It was 1985 and Williams was sentenced to serve 45 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit. "I felt betrayed. ... I felt like these people had taken my life for something I didn't do. I felt like I was being treated unfairly. ... I felt very, very angry towards everybody," said Williams last week, a free man after nearly 22 years behind bars.He said he spent many of those years stoking that anger by fighting guards and inmates, while his childhood friends were developing careers and raising families. Video Watch Williams offer more details about his prison nightmare »

Earlier this year, after DNA science proved his innocence, the 45-year-old with a graying mustache stood again before a judge -- who this time exonerated Williams.

Williams' troubling story provokes discomfort in a nation that prides itself on a justice system where the accused are innocent until proven guilty. So far, DNA evidence has directly exonerated 208 wrongly convicted people in the United States, according to the Innocence Project. It's unknown how many prisoners now locked up in American jails could be freed by new testing of DNA evidence.

One of the problems with the "pendulum" view of history is that... meanwhile...
people die or lose significant parts of their lives.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, October 25, 2007 12:36 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
One of the problems with the "pendulum" view of history is that... meanwhile...
people die or lose significant parts of their lives.

Not too sure how this ties into the topic of rendition, perhaps your 'Police State' thread is a better fit.

People are wrongly convicted of crimes sometimes. Should we no longer imprison anyone to make sure the innocents do not suffer?

People sometimes die on the operating table because of mistakes made by surgeons. Should all operations be suspended to make sure this never happens?

Humans are fallible, always have been and always will be. As long as the 'mistakes' remain a small percentage of the big picture that is all that can be expected IMHO.

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