Aurap..siggy ..it some CFR... by kaneman

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So Auraptor, are you as outraged about our terrorizing the civilian population of Vietnam as you are about the jihadists terrorizing Iraqis?

Irrelevent question. That was during a hot war, plus, the jihadist are terrorizing the rest of the planet, not just one country.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, November 2, 2007 1:41 PM

America loves a winner!

You keep making the same mistake, that it's "just about deaths". I wonder why. Hmmmm.

It's very different when the US discounts deaths which weren't intentional than when an terrorist plans to murder as many as he can. That's self evident, or should be, to most folks.

Yeah, 60 Minutes. A real impartial news source.

Please.

It's definatly making me and all of us safer. Seen any major attacks on the US soil lately ?

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, November 2, 2007 2:12 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Well, isn't it "just about deaths" ? Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, November 2, 2007 3:12 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Irrelevent question. That was during a hot war

So if WE can be "forgiven" for terrorizing and killing civilians during a "hot war", can the Jihadists in Iraq be forgiven for doing the same thing in the same circumstances? Or is that somehow different? And if so, how?

Quote:
plus, the jihadist are terrorizing the rest of the planet, not just one country.

And we're not? Okay, you'd say that "we're" not terrorizing people, its just our mercs and allied repressive militaries. But I could say the same for the "jihadists" because they aren't under one commander either.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, November 2, 2007 4:36 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Irrelevent question. That was during a hot war
So if WE can be "forgiven" for terrorizing and killing civilians during a "hot war", can the Jihadists in Iraq be forgiven for doing the same thing in the same circumstances? Or is that somehow different? And if so, how?
Quote:
plus, the jihadist are terrorizing the rest of the planet, not just one country.
And we're not? Okay, you'd say that "we're" not terrorizing people, its just our mercs and allied repressive militaries. But I could say the same for the "jihadists" because they aren't under one commander either.

If you're going to try to have a discussion that our troops and the jihadist are in ANY way equivolent, then that's a discussion you'll have by yourself.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, November 2, 2007 4:37 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Well, isn't it "just about deaths" ? Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?

Absolutely. Got any more dumb questions ?

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, November 2, 2007 4:40 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

So people killed by the US are less valuable than people killed by Jihadists ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, November 2, 2007 5:12 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So people killed by the US are less valuable than people killed by Jihadists ?

Wow, you do have more dumb questions! I was half kidding.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, November 2, 2007 5:33 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely.

Then explain - HOW is it better ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, November 2, 2007 7:18 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
If you're going to try to have a discussion that our troops and the jihadist are in ANY way equivolent, then that's a discussion you'll have by yourself.

Well, just like all Muslims are not jihadists, not all "troops" are terrorists. But if you torture, rape, maim, and kill... in other words, if you DO the same thing... then you ARE equivalent. Cause it doesn't matter how you "feel" about it, or what your "reasons" are, terrorizing people is being a terrorist.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 1:08 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
If you're going to try to have a discussion that our troops and the jihadist are in ANY way equivolent, then that's a discussion you'll have by yourself.
Well, just like all Muslims are not jihadists, not all "troops" are terrorists. But if you torture, rape, maim, and kill... in other words, if you DO the same thing... then you ARE equivalent. Cause it doesn't matter how you "feel" about it, or what your "reasons" are, terrorizing people is being a terrorist.

But that's not what our soldiers 'do'. So it's a invalid comparison.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 3:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'm trying to get you to see that islamic terrorism is real. Whether or not it's indicitive of all Islam, is another issue, but at the very least, you must see what's going on first before you can address the problem.

Quote me where I said Islamic Terrorism doesn't exist. You can't because I never said that, I never even alluded to that.

Perhaps you just aren't reading what I write, or you're more interested in winning to engage me honestly, either way there seems to be little point in continuing.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 4:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Beslan terrorist got instruction and financing from al Qaeda.

and Al Qaeda got instruction and financing from the CIA.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 5:38 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
But that's not what our soldiers 'do'. So it's a invalid comparison.

You keep wanting to expand your scope of Jihadism across the globe, through decades, and to all unaffiliated groups.

But when it comes to discussing "Americans" you suddenly narrow your focus to the "good guys in Iraq", discounting what we've done in Vietnam and elsewhere; what we trained, armed, and paid other militaries to do; our rogue soldiers; Abu Ghraib; Blackwater and our other contractors.

YES WE DO Auraptor. We have done, and will continue to do EXACTLY the same thing. Sometimes, as in Vietnam, it's on purpose with "special units". Sometimes it's what we train and pay others to do, as in Guatemala. Sometimes its our contractors. Sometimes we just don't "mind" collateral damage and wind up taking out a lot of innocent folks on the way to someone else. You're a big Jack Bauer fan, right? Kidnapping, torture, murder ... it's all good, right?

What we've been talking about all along is ends and means. If we feel that our ends are "just", does that give license to our means? I used to think that the ends DID justify the means. But over the decades I saw a pattern: every time we took a short cut ... aided, abetted, and performed terrorism... it came back to bite us in the *ss. A lot of people in South and Central America hate us. The people THERE know who backed their dictators with guns, money, training and intel. Years of horrific dictatorships, people "disappeared" by the thousands, torture, murder, genocide.. has led directly to backlashes like Hugo Chavez. Saddam Hussein was our big buddy against the Ayatollah Khomeini. And the AK came into power as a result of a backlash against the Shah of Iran, who WE placed into power. We trained his infamous Savak. The Taliban was an outgrowth of our support for the "muhajadeen".... whose main selling point was that they were anti-Soviet, ignoring the fact that they were repressive, religious nut-jobs INCLUDING ObL. Let's not forget that the Reagan administration played footsie with Islamic Iran, selling them arms and skimming the money for our "contra" war in Nicaragua.

So we backed a bunch of dictators in S&C America, the Taliban, Saddam, the Shah of Iran, supplied arms to Islamic Iran. And each time we made a deal with the devil we wound up dealing with an aftermath which was stronger and more virulent.

I've come to the conclusion that noble and righteous "ends" provide very little wiggle room for our "means", either in a moral or practical sense.

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 5:41 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Beslan terrorist got instruction and financing from al Qaeda.
and Al Qaeda got instruction and financing from the CIA.

Not only is that a lie, it's also incredibly irrelevant.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 5:53 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
But that's not what our soldiers 'do'. So it's a invalid comparison.
You keep wanting to expand your scope of Jihadism across the globe, through decades, and to all unaffiliated groups.

But when it comes to discussing "Americans" you suddenly narrow your focus to the "good guys in Iraq", discounting what we've done in Vietnam and elsewhere; what we trained, armed, and paid other militaries to do; our rogue soldiers; Abu Ghraib; Blackwater and our other contractors.

I'm not narrowing down the focus to ONLY our guys in Iraq, YOU'RE the one doing that. But instead of focusing on the 99.99% of good guys, you focus on the 0.01% bad guys. Bad guys whom we've charged, tried and when applicable, convicted for doing bad. You show me ONE case where an al Qaeda or Islmic Jihadist has been reprimanded for killing too MANY innocent people, or for being too harsh with a kidnapped victim, etc..... It never happens - EVER. In EVERY case around the globe, the terrorist in question are doing their acts in the name of allah, for PURE Islam, so spare me the attempts to disassociate them from each other. They're ALL doing this for one cause, for ALLAH.

I'm sick of explaining this over and over again, and all you do is refuse to read what I'm posting, undestand what I'm saying. You're just too stubbornly clinging to your politically correct mindset, which trips your logic breaker and keeps you from seeing that there IS good and evil, and instead you try to equivocate the two.

You refuse to see things as they are, and inisist on comparing unlike things as being on par with each other. I'm done w/ this moronic exercise in trying to educate you or to have a rational discussion on this topic. I've said all I can / will say on the matter.

Aloha.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 6:07 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Auraptor, I added more to my post, which x-posted with you so I'm carrying it here for your convenience. Thanks.

What we've been talking about all along is ends and means. If we feel that our ends are "just", does that give license to our means? I used to think that the ends DID justify the means. But over the decades I saw a pattern: every time we took a short cut ... aided, abetted, and performed terrorism... it came back to bite us in the *ss. A lot of people in South and Central America hate us. The people THERE know who backed their dictators with guns, money, training and intel. Years of horrific dictatorships, people "disappeared" by the thousands, torture, murder, genocide.. has led directly to backlashes like Hugo Chavez. Saddam Hussein was our big buddy against the Ayatollah Khomeini. And the AK came into power as a result of a backlash against the Shah of Iran, who WE placed into power. We trained his infamous Savak. The Taliban was an outgrowth of our support for the "muhajadeen".... whose main selling point was that they were anti-Soviet, ignoring the fact that they were repressive, religious nut-jobs INCLUDING ObL. Let's not forget that the Reagan administration played footsie with Islamic Iran, selling them arms and skimming the money for our "contra" war in Nicaragua.

So we backed a bunch of dictators in S&C America, the Taliban, Saddam, the Shah of Iran, supplied arms to Islamic Iran. And each time we made a deal with the devil we wound up dealing with an aftermath which was stronger and more virulent.

I've come to the conclusion that noble and righteous "ends" provide very little wiggle room for our "means", either in a moral or practical sense.

Quote:
You're just too stubbornly clinging to your politically correct mindset, which trips your logic breaker and keeps you from seeing that there IS good and evil, and instead you try to equivocate the two. You refuse to see things as they are, and inisist on comparing unlike things as being on par with each other.

Auraptor, good and evil is what you DO, not how noble you feel or how righteous your goals. Heck, I've read of people who have sadly killed their children out of "love" to send them to a better place. But killing is killing, torture is torture, and terrorizing a population is terrorism.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 6:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not only is that a lie, it's also incredibly irrelevant.

Saying Chechnyan rebels are Islamic terrorists is irrelevant, stupid and a lie. If aid from Al Qaeda makes acts not inspired by Islam "Islamic Terrorism", then IRA bombings in Britain are "American Terrorism", despite not being inspired by America, because the IRA got much of their funding from American citizens.

Islamic Terrorism is terrorism inspired by Islam, not Terrorism committed by Muslims. In the case of the IRA it can be said to be Christian Terrorism, because it's as much about Catholics killing Protestants and vice versa as it is anything else, Chechnyan is not about Muslims killing because of Islam. They're committing terrorism for an entirely different reason.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 6:28 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Auraptor, I added more to my post, which x-posted with you so please scroll up. Thanks.

Much of what you're mixing into the conversation is true, and exposes the catch 22 scenarios that our State Dept ( far more so tban individual Presidents or political parties ) has engaged in for DECADES. Ideas which seem good at the time may ( and do ) come around to bite you later on. As for helping the Islamist in Afghanistan , doing NOTHING seemed even a bigger gamble. Allow the Soviet Union to control the territory, being once step closer to all the mid east Oil and a warm water port. Coming from 30 yrs of the cold war at the time, it's easy to see how stoping the USSR at nearly all cost made sense. Had the Soviet Union won in Afghanistan, who knows where'd they be by now ? They might have helped Iran take out Iraq compeltely, and accomplishing 2 major goals in one step. The cold war continues, the Iron Curtain remains, and the US now has to deal with a much stronger Soviet Union.

We knew who and what these folks were at the time we were helping them, and despite that, the choice to aid them vs the scenario above seems a logical one. And not all of them were so hate filled against us. There was ( and likely still is ) a faction of folks who remember our assistance and would be willing to form some sort of reasonable co-existance. Sadly, those voices have been shouted down. Even so, given what we knew then, it's hard to see us making a different call. That's the problem of having to make tough decissions. Even if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. ( Apologies to the band Rush

)

That's as good as I got for this thread. You're welcome.

Aloha

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 6:43 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Auraptor: What would the USSR want with Afghani oil? They got a shit load of their own! AFA being Anti-Soviet: The USSR went into Afghanistan, built roads, schools, and hospitals. They stayed long enough that they trained thousands of women doctors... who BTW became the first victims of OUR Taliban. If we had focused on the stability of Afghanistan, rather on trying to maintain our extended reach over the Middle East (because WE wanted the oil, not because the Soviets did!) we would have left well enough alone.

At the time, Iran was a hotbed of radical Islam. It would have benefited us to have a stable, prosperous, secular nation in the area rather than a radicalized failed state.

You say that it would have been "hard" to make any other decision. Then what you're saying is that we (our State Department and who-all else) is incapable of learning from history because history teaches us that blowback is a bitch. A lot of times a principled decision while looking flawed in the short term is actually to our benefit in the long run. And maybe if we stopped operating out of reflex we might be able to suck it up and do what's right and practical.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 6:56 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not only is that a lie, it's also incredibly irrelevant.
Saying Chechnyan rebels are Islamic terrorists is irrelevant, stupid and a lie. If aid from Al Qaeda makes acts not inspired by Islam "Islamic Terrorism", then IRA bombings in Britain are "American Terrorism", despite not being inspired by America, because the IRA got much of their funding from American citizens.

Chechan rebels are Muslims. Muslims committing terrorist attacks. They receive help from other Muslims, who themselves are terrorists. Your IRA comparision is completely invalid because these 'Americans', as you call them, are made up mostly,if not entirely, of Irish descendants living in America. While being US citizens, they aren't reflective of most Americans. Bottom line is, you can't compare folks living here in the US to the rank and file members of al Qaeda, which are all trained and brainwashed to kill the infidels, where ever they find them. It's a moot point.

The CIA never funded al Qaeda. They receive their funding from around the world, from front organizations posing as 'Relief' outfits for palestinians and the like, as well as an array of other phony outfits as well. They also get funding from rich Oil sheiks, mainly in Saudia Arabia. And OBL himself was a very wealthy man, before he was exiled. I'm sure he's got a few pennies to rub together himself. al Qaeda is a crime organization which finds funding w/ out help from the CIA.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 6:59 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Auraptor: What would the USSR want with Afghani oil?

I never said "Afghani oil". Dude, this is an entirely different thread. I'm done w/ this one.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 7:16 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
allow the Soviet Union to control the territory, being once step closer to all the mid east Oil and a warm water port

Okay, Mideast oil. But again, what would the USSR want with Mideast oil? They got a shitload themselves. The ONLY thing they could do is deny us and Europe access. Of the two, we would weather that issue better. In fact, we could have eliminated our need for Mideast oil by increasing fuel efficiency.

I said before that fear makes people do stupid things, and that works collectively as well as individually. We were taught to be afraid of Communism, so we reacted reflexively each time ANY form of socialism popped up, and denied such modest steps as land reform or more equitable deals for oil, creating tyranny in the Phillipines, Indonesia, Chile, Iran, Nicaragua, Panama, Brazil, Afghanistan, Guatemala and many other places, all under the flag of "anti Communism". So now we're cozying up to Pakistan (which has done more to spread nuclear technology throughout the Islamic nations than any other nation) and Saudi Arabia (which funds terrorists and is a radical Muslim tyranny), and any other tinpot dictatorship in the area that'll have us (Uzbekistan and all the other 'stans).

But if we really want to live in a peaceful, democratic world... a world where we don't have a big bull's eye painted on our backs... then we should be backing peaceful, democratic, transparent governments, not fostering horror. Tough in the short run? You bet. But better in the long run.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 7:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Chechan rebels are Muslims. Muslims committing terrorist attacks. They receive help from other Muslims, who themselves are terrorists.

I know, but that doesn't mean it's Islamic Terrorism. It's an inordinately simple concept that you seem unable or unwilling to grasp, Islamic Terrorism IS NOT terrorism committed by Muslims, it's terrorism committed in the name of Islam. A Muslim can commit a terrorist act without it being Islamic Terrorism, and you've shown no Islamic component to Chechnyan terrorist motivations. The Terrorists being Muslim is incidental if they're not committing terrorist acts because of Islam.

Quote:
Your IRA comparision is completely invalid because these 'Americans', as you call them, are made up mostly,if not entirely, of Irish descendants living in America. While being US citizens, they aren't reflective of most Americans.

So Irish-Americans aren't normal Americans huh. In a country built on immigration you can't separate people from the general population based on ancestry, they're just American. If you try and separate them out because affiliation is inconvenient to you, your being nothing more than racist.

Actually my IRA analogy is completely valid, because the premise that Beslan was Islamic Terrorism and the premise that IRA Terrorism is American Terrorism are both invalid for the same reasons. Again you manage to miss the point spectacularly.

Quote:
Bottom line is, you can't compare folks living here in the US to the rank and file members of al Qaeda, which are all trained and brainwashed to kill the infidels, where ever they find them. It's a moot point.

I didn't compare them to Al Qaeda, read what I write rather than making it up as you go along.

Quote:
The CIA never funded al Qaeda. They receive their funding from around the world, from front organizations posing as 'Relief' outfits for palestinians and the like, as well as an array of other phony outfits as well. They also get funding from rich Oil sheiks, mainly in Saudia Arabia. And OBL himself was a very wealthy man, before he was exiled. I'm sure he's got a few pennies to rub together himself. al Qaeda is a crime organization which finds funding w/ out help from the CIA.

Actually there is evidence to suggest the CIA funded Al Qaeda, and were still funding them in 1995 (as per a French intelligence report). They had motive too, during the 80's Al Qaeda was fighting Soviet Russia, so they were a convenient proxy.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 7:53 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
citizen wrote: So Irish-Americans aren't normal Americans huh. In a country built on immigration you can't separate people from the general population based on ancestry, they're just American. If you try and separate them out because affiliation is inconvenient to you, your being nothing more than racist.

Ahh..the 'racist' card. A clear indication that I've won this debate and left you floundering for some ounce of dignity. The interest of Irish Americans per the IRA and the issues w/ England aren't those shared by a vast majority of Americans. I wish I could say your sad, petty attempt to make this into some sort of 'race' issue is a new low, even for you - but it's par for the course. In a country built on immigration, we clearly can seperate people from the general population based on their actions and their support for the IRA. Most Americans are pretty unaware of the whole conflict, either way. There's nothing in the least 'racist' about it at all, its simply pragmatic. The N.Ireland conflict was never really on the radar as a concern for the average American. Sorry, it just was not nor is not.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 8:01 AM

Whatever dude, you're the one who alluded to Irish-Americans not being 'Americans', not me. I'm not playing the racist card at all, I said denying a group of people as American because you find their inclusion inconvenient is racist, and you know what, it really is. As for a new 'low', someone who has been calling people terrorists and terrorists-sympathisers throughout this thread has no right whatsoever to talk about lows.

It appears you've moved on to your usual tactic of faux outrage and declarations of 'I win' to try to convince yourself that your argument didn't collapse about half a thread back. Whatever lets you sleep at night man, no one is fooled, so I'll just leave you to it.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 1:18 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Whatever dude, you're the one who alluded to Irish-Americans not being 'Americans', not me.

Again, I never did any such thing, not once, not ever. Your built in bias towards me or whom ever really must be looked at.

Quote:
I'm not playing the racist card at all, I said denying a group of people as American because you find their inclusion inconvenient is racist, and you know what, it really is.

I never denied them as being Americans what so ever. Stop smoking the funny weed! I said that outside of Irish Americans, not many give a damn about the religious scrap of N.Ireland.

It appears you've moved on to your usual tactic of faux outrage and declarations of 'I win' to try to convince yourself that your argument didn't collapse about half a thread back. Whatever lets you sleep at night man, no one is fooled, so I'll just leave you to it.

You're just fussy that I didn't roll over as soon as you brought out the bogus 'race card' and called you on your lame attempt to skirt the issue. As usual. There's no faux outrage here on my part at all, just exaspiration as you, once again, try to distort the issue because you have nothing to back you up.

You'd have done better for yourself had you just left it BEFORE you tried the lame race baiting. No one is fooled by your lame tactics, that much you did get right.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, November 6, 2007 7:31 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Rap,

I never did get an answer to this ....

Rue: Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap: Absolutely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rue: Then explain - HOW is it better ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, November 6, 2007 11:32 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rap,

I never did get an answer to this ....

Rue: Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap: Absolutely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rue: Then explain - HOW is it better ?

It's called 'sarcasm'. I really thought this thread wa long dead. Sheesh.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, November 6, 2007 1:28 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Then it's NOT better. Great ! We agree ! So, since it's NOT better when the US kills people, how do you justify the US doing it ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, November 6, 2007 3:30 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

So, uh, Rap ---- any response ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, November 6, 2007 5:37 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Then it's NOT better. Great ! We agree ! So, since it's NOT better when the US kills people, how do you justify the US doing it ?

I honestly have no idea what you're asking. Please, try to form a coherent, clear and concise question for me to answer.

I might add that you could do better for yourself if you left out any misleading, false premised preambles to your question as well. Thanks.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, November 6, 2007 5:55 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Rue: Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap: Absolutely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rue: Then explain - HOW is it better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap: It's called 'sarcasm'.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rue: Then it's NOT better. Great ! We agree ! So, since it's NOT better when the US kills people, how do you justify the US doing it ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 12:17 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Rap

And since we're hashing things out, I never did get an answer to this question. And I even repeated the (very short) question for you, as you asked. So, here it is again, question in bold:

Rue: Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap: Absolutely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rue: Then explain - HOW is it better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap: It's called 'sarcasm'.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rue: Then it's NOT better. Great ! We agree ! So, since it's NOT better when the US kills people, how do you justify the US doing it ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 2:47 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

That's too complicated, Rue. Keep it simple!

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 3:39 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

If a Rue falls in the forest does anyone but Signy hear her?

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 3:48 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Apparently you do, too.

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You just couldn't help yourself - you HAD to say something snide. And not only did you set yourself up, you walked into your own trap.

Where is the :stooopid: emoticon when you really need it ?

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 4:15 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Apparently you do, too.
You just couldn't help yourself - you HAD to say something snide. And not only did you set yourself up, you walked into your own trap.

Where is the :stooopid: emoticon when you really need it ?

But my thoughts don't come across in this forum. For some reason only the typed word does, go figure.

Besides, this is a fan forum, what do you possibly have to gain by taunting Auraptor?
Are your questions the only ones that need answering? You did not even attempt to answer my query to you much earlier in this thread. Perhaps I should keep reposting it over and over again until I can feel some sense of superiority, or victory. Nah, seems rather petty to me.

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 4:19 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

Rue: Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap: Absolutely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rue: Then explain - HOW is it better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap: It's called 'sarcasm'.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rue: Then it's NOT better. Great ! We agree ! So, since it's NOT better when the US kills people, how do you justify the US doing it ?

When you ask a real qustion, I'll grant you the honor of my time and give you an answer. Until then, go play your little game.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 4:20 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

BiggusD

1) this is RWE - repeat as necessary
2) I'm not taunting, I'm asking - politely I might add.
3) repeat your question - I'm often away from the board for days and I even miss posts

Rap

It's a real question. I've been hoping for an answer which is why I keep asking.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 5:09 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

And I'm still waiting for an answer. Sigh.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 5:26 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And I'm still waiting for an answer. Sigh.

And you will continue waiting, until I get a legitimate question.

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 5:30 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

How do (interrogative) you (subject) justify (verb) the US killing (object) of civilians if (conjunction) it is just as bad as when Jihadists kill civilians ? (question mark)

Seems like a legitimate question to me. And I really want to know. You seem to think it's fine. Tell me how you conclude that.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 5:59 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
1) this is RWE - repeat as necessary

Why is Auraptor's answer so darn important to you?

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
2) I'm not taunting, I'm asking - politely I might add.

The first time may have been considered polite, the successive repeats perhaps not IMHO.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
3) repeat your question...

===============================================

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So, in Iraq alone the US has caused AT LEAST 10x more deaths than Jihadists have worldwide.

Do you still say they are more evil ?

So you are holding the US responsible for all deaths caused by sectarian strife?

===============================================

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I'm often away from the board for days and I even miss posts

Hmmmm, perhaps that is the case for others as well no?

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 6:00 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Sigh. That's why I keep asking. Sooner or later he'll get it. That's the kind and gentle interpretation of not getting an answer. Which I am trying to remedy - by simplifying, clarifying and reposting.

As to why it's so important - if you can ask me then I can ask him. It works that way all around.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 6:48 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Auraptor refuses to answer the question because it is the nub of the logical contradiction that underlies his opinion. If he acknowledged that deaths caused by Americans are just as bad as deaths caused by others, he would have to acknowledge that Americans might not be the heroes that he envisions. It's simple, really, and only an idiot could fail to see it.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 7:03 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"it is the nub of the logical contradiction that underlies his opinion"

It looks that way to me too, which is why I'm so curious. If I could find out how he keeps those ideas together in his head I'd feel I had achieved some significant, meaningful understanding of Rap and where he's coming from. Which is why I'm really, really hoping he'll answer - either post or PM.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 10:33 AM

America loves a winner!

I don't justify the killing of civilians, and that is why your question is false. I do, however, acknowledge that collateral damage is a unavoidable consequence of war. Where you and I differ is that I see how the US tries at great lengths to AVOID civilian casualities, while the terrorist do every thing they can to murder as many innocents as possible. I'm fairly certain that we've gone over this before,and can't help but wonder why we're going over it again.

And yes SIGNYM, he US soldiers ARE the heroes I envison them to be, in great contrast to the purely evil Islamo-Facsist/Jihadist.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 10:47 AM