To think about. by Fremdfirma

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

To think about.

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:14
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Saturday, November 10, 2007 9:14 AM

This is, actually, sci-fi related in where I got the idea, and such - will explain afterwords.

As usual up to you whether you wanna answer or discuss.

Which is the more important question.

#1. Who are you ?

#2. What do you want ?

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Saturday, November 10, 2007 9:43 AM

LEADB

After watching a particular episode of B5 lately, I'm afraid to answer the first question.

The first question is very hard to answer in terms that mean much in an objective sense. For instance, if an FBI agent asks that question and you reply "I am me", he's likely to be very unhappy with you for your most accurate and truthful answer. You can reply with your name, but it is merely a label and does not mean much unless they can associate facts to the name. "I am a flawed human who strives to improve him(her)self" might make a philosopher happy, but again frustrate the FBI agent.

What do you want? Besides food, shelter, and acceptance? Surface answers may not mean much, and mean very little if one cannot answer the question 'do you know what you want?'.

In general, I find 'What do you want?' more revealing, especially if permitted to ask the follow up question 'and why?' I don't know most folks are prepared to answer the first question in a way that is helpful.

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Saturday, November 10, 2007 12:33 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Which is the more important question.

#1. Who are you ?

#2. What do you want ?

The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.

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Saturday, November 10, 2007 3:43 PM

CAUSAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Which is the more important question.

#1. Who are you?

#2. What do you want?

I think that LeadB is right that "Who are you" could be answered in a variety of different ways--and that is why I think it's actually the more important question. "What do you want" is almost certainly going to have its ground in who you are--you will almost certainly not be doing something contrary to your nature. But the question of who you are is a deeply existential issue, and one, if I may be so bold, that is almost inexhaustible in its possbilities.

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Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:26 PM

LEADB

I suppose, to answer the original question, one must understand this word... 'important'.

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Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:31 PM

CAUSAL

Ah, yes: philosopher, define thy terms!

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Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:39 PM

TPAGE

I'd have to agree with leadb. Who someone is changes with the situation, the crowd, the role, ... but what do you want is much more revealing about a person's 'inner self' so to speak.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

And if someday on some little piss-ant moon/My hand is a little too slow, or my aim a little bit off/At least I’ll go down fighting, not lying abed surrounded by quacks - "Sir Warrick" by Geezer

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Sunday, November 11, 2007 1:20 AM

CITIZEN

Surely it doesn't matter which question you find more important? The other one will still blow up your planet.

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Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:10 AM

CAUSAL

Quote:
Originally posted by TPage:
I'd have to agree with leadb. Who someone is changes with the situation, the crowd, the role, ... but what do you want is much more revealing about a person's 'inner self' so to speak.

But isn't what a person wants a mere function of who the person is?

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Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:40 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I vote for 'Who are you?'

To which Malcolm Reynolds might reply, "You want to meet the real me, now?!"

Of course, future questions such as "Why are you here" and "Where are you going" raise other interesting possibilities.

But those are more River questions, I suppose. I bet she'd do well in the B5 verse.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Good question.

Initially, I thought "What do you want" would be more important because it's more definite. But "What do you want" doesn't answer the other important questions "What do you NOT want", and just as important "What is your capability to move towards you goal"? So while "What you want" is an indication of motivation (i.e. what makes you "move", and in what direction) it doesn't say anything about HOW you achieve it or whether indeed it's even within your capacity to imagine it.

So my opinion now it "who are you?" is the more important, although less definable.

Of course, I'm ready to be swayed on the topic.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:24 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Which is the more important question.

I think they are the same question.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.

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Sunday, November 11, 2007 11:07 AM

CAUSAL

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Which is the more important question.
I think they are the same question.

That's a rather bleak picture of humanity--our very essence can be reduced to nothing more than the sum of our appetites. Eesh.

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Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:01 PM

CITIZEN

The first is certianly the harder question to answer honestly.

The second is fairly easy. I want a boiler that didn't stop working right as winter hit, and a computer that didn't explode right when I don't have the money to replace it.

Am I supposed to say peace on Earth and goodwill to all now?

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Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:08 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
That's a rather bleak picture of humanity--our very essence can be reduced to nothing more than the sum of our appetites. Eesh.

Perhaps I should define the term, "want."

There is want, and there is want. There is "Mal wants independence and freedom outside the reach of meddlesome authority" and there is "Mal wants a dumpling."

To me, want is the desire that arises from the core of your being, a desire so strong you eventually have no choice but to follow, no matter what the cost. It is the desire that caused Mal to have no choice but to return the medicine in Train Job. Returning the medicine is what he wants, because it is who he is.

I don't mean want as in "I want a cookie."

My husband, though, pointed out that we have to include wanting cookies in our wants, and therefore what we want includes who we are, but also includes appetites, as you say, and psychological baggage of wanting things that are contrary to what we "want" existentially. And it is sorting out our wants that help us eventually find out who we are.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.

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Sunday, November 11, 2007 1:15 PM

LEADB

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Am I supposed to say peace on Earth and goodwill to all now?

Depends on 'who you are' ;-) For instance, the utterance is mandatory for beauty pageant contenders.

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Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:24 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Both the questions can be pretty useless or useful, depending on how introspective and self-conscious the person being asked is. The first is difficult to answer more than partially because of how complex people are, and the second one can be answered shallowly. It also depends upon if the person is lying to themselves - how many pageant girls really want world peace? Am I really as smart as I'd like to think?

But, as to which is more important... I'd say the first, because it influences the second (and a lot else, too). I’d ask the second question, though, because it reveals things about the first in a more concrete way than the first does about the second, even when possible lying is factored in.

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Monday, November 12, 2007 6:27 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Ok, will get more on this later, but yes, I did indeed get the idea from Babylon 5.

Question 1 is known as the "Vorlon Question".
Question 2 is known as the "Shadow Question".

Having not gotten to see all the episodes, I took to digging through the storyline elsehwere when the idea to ask it here jumped out at me - and for the record (admitted bias) I despise the Vorlons, just so ya know.

I'll get more into my perceptions of the questions and what they say in a bit, gotta pull a double today in hopes of makin a buck past the fuel cost on the cab, grrr.

Back in a while.

-F

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Monday, November 12, 2007 7:40 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Ok, will get more on this later, but yes, I did indeed get the idea from Babylon 5.

Question 1 is known as the "Vorlon Question".
Question 2 is known as the "Shadow Question".

Having not gotten to see all the episodes, I took to digging through the storyline elsehwere when the idea to ask it here jumped out at me - and for the record (admitted bias) I despise the Vorlons, just so ya know.

I don't particularly like either. The Vorlons were control freaks, and the Shadows were homocidal maniacs. In the wash they're both control freaks, the Vorlons want to force peace on everyone, but the Shadows want to force war on everyone, at the end of the day I think the Shadows are the bigger bastards.

Like I said, at the end of the day it doesn't matter which you choose, the other still blows up your planet.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:02 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

#1. Who are you ?

#2. What do you want ?

Hmmm...lets see...

I have always been here (really, I've been on the website a LONG time) and I want a pizza (even though is 9am...I'm fracking hungery).

H

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:04 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Question 1 is known as the "Vorlon Question".
Question 2 is known as the "Shadow Question".

Question 3 was "Why are you watching this?" That was know as "The Season Five Question".

H

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 8:41 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Question 3 was "Why are you watching this?" That was know as "The Season Five Question".

H

Kinda like the B5: Crusade spin off question "How bad do we have to get to get rid of you?"

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 11:24 AM

FREMDFIRMA

sadly, i do not have as much time as i would like to expound on this, as i gotta "situation" developin likely gonna take all my attention for a bit...

Didn't wanna leave you hangin, but the one i would ask is #2 - and why ?

cause #1 deals mostly with how you relate to you, and #2 deals with how you relate to others... in short...

"How are your actions likely to effect or impact me ?" seems to be the root of the answer.

I flipped through the storyline, and while anything but nice, the shadows seemed content to leave the lesser races alone as long as they did not feel threatened by them - while the vorlons went and meddled, causing the shadows to feel threatened and prettymuch go apeshit about it, hell from their point of view they were quite justified, although I do not necessarily agree about that.

While both total jackasses, given any kinda choice i would always pick the one who left me be over the one who wants me to be a pawn on their chessboard, yanno ?

so, back to the questions...

#1 seems mostly an internal question, regarding self-realization and thought processes, belief systems, what have you - things which may spark or influance external actions, but are not in themselves such a thing.

Generally something not directly relevant to someone i have just met.

#2 seems mostly an external question, regarding how their actions might affect me, or mine might affect them, and gives a hint, at least in a general sense, to predicting what those actions might be.

Generally something very relevant to someone i have just met, you see ?

And so I was curious to see how other people reacted to those two questions and why, and thus offer my perceptions of... woulda been longer and more involved, but i gotta go handle stuff.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:14 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I flipped through the storyline, and while anything but nice, the shadows seemed content to leave the lesser races alone as long as they did not feel threatened by them - while the vorlons went and meddled, causing the shadows to feel threatened and prettymuch go apeshit about it, hell from their point of view they were quite justified, although I do not necessarily agree about that.

While both total jackasses, given any kinda choice i would always pick the one who left me be over the one who wants me to be a pawn on their chessboard, yanno ?

That's not exactly what they were all about. The Vorlons actively 'guided' the 'lesser races' (i.e. every race that wasn't the first ones) both culturally and genetically.

Though the Vorlons have largely been out of the picture until the first episode of Babylon 5, they were little more than myths to most people and races until after the Earth-Minbari war.

Though in the wash what it comes down to is that both the Shadows and Vorlons were using the 'lesser races' as proxies in their own war, a little like countries such as Korea, Vietnam, Cuba and Afghanistan were used as proxies between the USA and the USSR. So that they can fight each other, without fighting each other. There's a lot to that comparison, they're both fighting mainly over ideology, in respect of the US/USSR it was Communism vs Capitalism, Vorlons and Shadows were the best way to 'teach' the lesser races (the Shadows and Vorlons were all that were left from the First ones, they were left behind with the purpose of guiding the lesser races).

Both philosophies can be devolved down to one word respectively, for the Vorlons it was order, for the Shadows chaos. The Vorlons thought the best way for the lesser races to develop was through obedience and peace, the Shadows thought it was by war, killing off the weaker races, allowing the stronger survivors to come back even stronger. Kinda like extreme Darwinism.

Races the Shadows left alone, were the ones they had picked out to be wiped out, and ones they saw as strong were meddled with just as much, if not more than the Vorlons had. For instance Earth under president Clark became a totalitarian dictatorship, this was the doing of the Shadows. Basically the Vorlons wanted to control everyone, the Shadows wanted to control some, and wipe out everyone else. Point is, they both wanted you as a pawn.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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