REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

A Question of NATO

POSTED BY: JEWELSTAITEFAN
UPDATED: Monday, July 16, 2018 14:05
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 297
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Wednesday, July 11, 2018 6:21 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I don't keep track of, or remember what everybody's opinion is about everything.

So I'm wondering who thinks this is a good idea:
Germany is paying Moscow for fuel, being a captive partner with Moscow, and spending 2% of their GDP on their NATO Defense. While America is paying far more to protect them FROM Moscow.

I don't mind if you also argue the opposite, just say that you're playing Devil's Advocate.

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Wednesday, July 11, 2018 2:45 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Germany is (mostly) looking out for Germany's best interests, altho Merkel's immigration policy was a giant WTF??? moment.

Germany is an exporting nation, like China, and depends on the American market to maintain a positive balance of trade. At the same time, they don't want to be overburdened with military expenses, so they've been depending on America for that, too. And, since they shut down their nuclear power plants after Fukushima, they have really relied very heavily on coal, but are trying to switch over the "greener" energy sources and are now relying on cheap Russian natural gas.

Don't look for big overarching ideological consistency from Merkel. She's what they call a "pragmatist" which means that (except for her immigration policy, which I STILL can't fathom!) she will not sacrifice an awful lot for a political principle or a for an ally.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Wednesday, July 11, 2018 9:03 PM

REAVERFAN



Can We Just Admit that Trump Is Captured by the Russians?
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2018/07/11/can-we-just-admit-that-trump-
is-captured-by-the-russians/

It’s getting sad watching people thrash around for explanations for the president’s behavior that don’t involve him being essentially captured by Vladimir Putin. The latest comes from the Washington Post‘s editorial board. They begin by advancing the argument that Donald Trump is simply too stupid to understand how NATO is funded which is supposed to explain why he continuously says moronic things about Europe not paying the United States their dues. Perhaps as a private citizen and candidate, Trump suffered under the misimpression that NATO countries owe America money, but he was disabused of that notion at some point since he’s become president. If no one else has informed him (and they surely have), the foreign leaders within NATO have let him know in one-on-one conversations. Even Trump’s own words confirm he understands, as he asked European countries to commit to spending four percent of their GDP on defense. That’s a ridiculous request but it shows that he knows what the real bone of contention is, and it isn’t that NATO countries aren’t paying us directly.

Trump attempts to cover for his own NATO-destroying rhetoric by accusing Germany of being too friendly with and dependent on Russia, but that’s ludicrous. Germany has been steadfast in defending Ukraine while the president has rhetorically ceded Crimea to Russia and called for them to be reinstated to the G7.

It’s almost humorous to watch the Post’s editorial board dance around the elephant in the room.

"Ms. [Angela] Merkel and other European leaders probably are aware that Mr. Trump’s deep skepticism toward NATO is shared by virtually no one in his own administration or Republicans in Congress; the Senate passed a resolution in support of the alliance by 97 to 2 on Tuesday. The president is also at odds with the American public. According to a 2017 survey by the Chicago Council on Global Affairs, 69 percent — including 54 percent of core Trump supporters — say NATO is “essential” to U.S. security.

Perhaps that’s why, despite his outbursts, Mr. Trump did not stand in the way of NATO’s adoption at the summit of new plans to defend against Russia and terrorism. But his hostile rhetoric does its own damage — and it will be compounded if it is followed by an unseemly show of comity with Mr. Putin at their meeting next week."

Why would a president adopt these anti-NATO positions when they do not reflect the consensus of opinion within his own State Department, Defense Department, intelligence services, or his top advisors and congressional members of his own party?

Why would a president who stands accused of conspiring with Russia to win election want to nakedly adopt policies that suit Russia more than his own country and that are opposed by our allies? Why would he want to have a summit with the Russian leader? Why would he want to have a private meeting with no witnesses present with that Russian leader? An innocent man would avoid making himself look so clearly guilty and a guilty one would be more deceptive. Only a captured man would act like this.

And it’s getting silly how far people will go to avoid facing up to that simple fact.

LOL! I can't wait to see the pee tapes!

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Thursday, July 12, 2018 12:11 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Quote:

Can We Just Admit that Trump Is Captured by the Russians?
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2018/07/11/can-we-just-admit-that-trump-
is-captured-by-the-russians/



expected, propagandist, fear mongering - being 'trumped' up to make people accept even more US troops in NATO than the current record numbers, more US military spending in Europe, and moving NATO even closer to the Russian border

I predict - and please put this in the predictions thread - that all this kabuki angst will silently evaporate. And people like RF will be too stupid to notice.

Trump is a blowhard when it comes to getting along with Russia. In reality, despite all the noise and gafla, there has been a major increase in US NATO-directed spending and troops.


https://www.defensenews.com/smr/nato-priorities/2018/06/25/poking-the-
bear-us-air-force-builds-in-russias-backyard
/
The Trump administration wants to spend $828 million in 2019 to build up military infrastructure in Europe as part of an ongoing initiative to deter Russian aggression and reinforce allies. Almost half of that construction funding would go toward U.S. Air Force projects.
The request would more than double military construction funding under the European Deterrence Initiative, or EDI, from the 2018 request — when not so long ago, the U.S. military was shrinking its Cold War-era footprint in Europe.

http://www.mfa.gov.lv/en/news/latest-news/59184-the-foreign-ministry-s
-parliamentary-secretary-welcomes-latvia-u-s-strategic-partnership-and-u-s-involvement-in-the-strengthening-of-latvia-s-security
19.02.2018. 17:20
On 19 February 2018, the Parliamentary Secretary of the Latvian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Zanda Kalnina-Lukaševica, met with Elise Stefanik and Anthony Brown, members of the Committee on Armed Services at the U.S. House of Representatives.
During the meeting, the Parliamentary Secretary expressed satisfaction at Latvia’s intensive political dialogue with the U.S. Administration and the Congress, which had resulted in further U.S. support for the security and defence of Latvia: a constant rotational forward presence of the U.S. has been established in the country, U.S. troops take place in military exercises in the Baltic States and Poland on a regular basis, and the U.S. Congress has increased funding for the European Deterrence Initiative. Because of this, society in Latvia can feel more secure. Members of the Congress Stefanik and Brown pledged unwavering U.S. support for Latvia’s security and Article 5 of NATO Charter.

https://www.stripes.com/news/big-guns-better-chow-for-us-soldiers-on-r
ussia-deterrence-mission-1.488756
September 21, 2017
Big guns, better chow for US soldiers on Russia deterrence mission
Martinez and his platoon are among 500 173rd Airborne Brigade soldiers that swooped into the Baltics (Lithuania) this month on a mission to deter Russian aggression.
They have joined war games with local troops and new NATO battle groups deployed to the broader region — a buildup that collectively represents the alliance’s largest reinforcement of its eastern flank since the end of the Cold War.

https://www.socom.mil/Pages/posture-statement-hasc.aspx MAY 2, 2017
Reassurance Initiative funding to deter Russia and reassure Allies, including by working with NATO to build more effective defense institutions in partner nations. In support of this, we have had persistent SOF presence for over 2 years in nearly every European country on Russia's western border (Baltics, Poland, Romania, Ukraine, Georgia) – assuring our allies and partners while building host nation and NATO capabilities to compete short of conflict in a hybrid environment.

https://apnews.com/cb5d55ba66694c2ca0f4094e26926345 Jan. 12, 2017
... the new deployment — which includes some 3,500 U.S. troops — marks the first-ever continuous deployment to the region (Poland) by a NATO ally (US).
In a separate but related mission, NATO will also deploy four battalions to its eastern flank later this year, one each to Poland and the three Baltic states. The U.S. will also lead one of those battalions.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-us-troops-nato-
mission-poland-message-obama-putin-a7517281.html
. Monday 9 January 2017
American soldiers landed in Wroclaw, home to a key Nato and Polish air base in south-west Poland. The troops will be followed by around 2,800 tanks and other pieces of military equipment which are being transported by land from Germany.
It has been described as one of the largest movements of US troops to Europe since the Cold War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO (since the 1997 NATO-Russia Founding Act)
In 1999, Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic joined the organization, amid much debate within the organization and Russian opposition. Another expansion came with the accession of seven Central and Eastern European countries: Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia. These nations were first invited to start talks of membership during the 2002 Prague summit, and joined NATO shortly before the 2004 Istanbul summit. Albania and Croatia joined on 1 April 2009, prior to the 2009 Strasbourg–Kehl summit. The most recent member state to be added to NATO is Montenegro on 5 June 2017.



T H E W H I T E H O U S E
NATO-Russia Founding Act Signing
https://clintonwhitehouse4.archives.gov/WH/New/Europe/19970527-814.htm
l

There is an obligation to non-deploy on a permanent basis of combat forces of NATO near Russia. All of this means that we have agreed not to harm the security interests of each other. And I think it is the most important accomplishment for us all.

https://www.nato.int/cps/su/natohq/official_texts_25468.htm






SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Thursday, July 12, 2018 10:29 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I haven't really heard the numbers laid out.

Germany's GDP was 3,677 Billion in 2017. So 2% was 73.5 Billion (US $). That was the target of each member nation, of which only 5 of 28 met. In 2016 Germany paid 1.19%. Which would be about 43.7 Billion.

US pays 73% of NATO funding. In 2016 US paid 3.61% of it's GDP. Or about 666.8 Billion, based upon FY 2016 GDP.

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Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:17 PM

JJ


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I haven't really heard the numbers laid out.

Germany's GDP was 3,677 Billion in 2017. So 2% was 73.5 Billion (US $). That was the target of each member nation, of which only 5 of 28 met. In 2016 Germany paid 1.19%. Which would be about 43.7 Billion.

US pays 73% of NATO funding. In 2016 US paid 3.61% of it's GDP. Or about 666.8 Billion, based upon FY 2016 GDP.



Since you're so concerned about our financial stability and have tied that to NATO not spending their fare share on defense, I'll enlighten you in two ways.

First, Trump has all the dummies looking in the wrong direction when it comes to Americas financial stability. Therefore my first response to this thread is...
T







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Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:26 PM

JJ


My second response to this thread is to show why NATO is so important and why Russia wants to undermine this alliance.

T






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Thursday, July 12, 2018 4:41 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I don't keep track of, or remember what everybody's opinion is about everything.

So I'm wondering who thinks this is a good idea:
Germany is paying Moscow for fuel, being a captive partner with Moscow, and spending 2% of their GDP on their NATO Defense. While America is paying far more to protect them FROM Moscow.

I don't mind if you also argue the opposite, just say that you're playing Devil's Advocate.

This is the OP.
Reposted for those with reading deficiencies.

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Thursday, July 12, 2018 9:19 PM

REAVERFAN


Or, more accurately, to further avoid getting your lying ass kicked, on a pretense of civility.

You trolls are more educational than you realize.

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Thursday, July 12, 2018 9:28 PM

REAVERFAN


It looks entirely like Blumpy's actions in Europe are exactly what Pooty would like, as opposed to the interests of Americans.

You'd have to be an American to get it, I guess.

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Thursday, July 12, 2018 10:55 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I'm pretty sure that the regular people who argue the other side here are only "Pro NATO" because Trump is against it.

I would love to get a hold of their written opinions about NATO spanning a decade or two before Trump was president, assuming of course that they even had an opinion on the matter at all.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, July 13, 2018 10:44 AM

JJ


T



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Friday, July 13, 2018 8:03 PM

JJ

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Saturday, July 14, 2018 1:10 AM

REAVERFAN


250,000.

Their news is actual news.

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Sunday, July 15, 2018 3:06 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


reposted facts to counter unsupported claims
Quote:

Originally posted by reaverfan:
It looks entirely like Blumpy's actions in Europe are exactly what Pooty would like, as opposed to the interests of Americans.

You'd have to be an American to get it, I guess.



Trump is a blowhard when it comes to getting along with Russia. In reality, despite all the noise and gafla, there has been a major increase in US NATO-directed spending and troops.


https://www.defensenews.com/smr/nato-priorities/2018/06/25/poking-the-
bear-us-air-force-builds-in-russias-backyard
/
The Trump administration wants to spend $828 million in 2019 to build up military infrastructure in Europe as part of an ongoing initiative to deter Russian aggression and reinforce allies. Almost half of that construction funding would go toward U.S. Air Force projects.
The request would more than double military construction funding under the European Deterrence Initiative, or EDI, from the 2018 request — when not so long ago, the U.S. military was shrinking its Cold War-era footprint in Europe.

http://www.mfa.gov.lv/en/news/latest-news/59184-the-foreign-ministry-s
-parliamentary-secretary-welcomes-latvia-u-s-strategic-partnership-and-u-s-involvement-in-the-strengthening-of-latvia-s-security
19.02.2018. 17:20
On 19 February 2018, the Parliamentary Secretary of the Latvian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Zanda Kalnina-Lukaševica, met with Elise Stefanik and Anthony Brown, members of the Committee on Armed Services at the U.S. House of Representatives.
During the meeting, the Parliamentary Secretary expressed satisfaction at Latvia’s intensive political dialogue with the U.S. Administration and the Congress, which had resulted in further U.S. support for the security and defence of Latvia: a constant rotational forward presence of the U.S. has been established in the country, U.S. troops take place in military exercises in the Baltic States and Poland on a regular basis, and the U.S. Congress has increased funding for the European Deterrence Initiative. Because of this, society in Latvia can feel more secure. Members of the Congress Stefanik and Brown pledged unwavering U.S. support for Latvia’s security and Article 5 of NATO Charter.

https://www.stripes.com/news/big-guns-better-chow-for-us-soldiers-on-r
ussia-deterrence-mission-1.488756
September 21, 2017
Big guns, better chow for US soldiers on Russia deterrence mission
Martinez and his platoon are among 500 173rd Airborne Brigade soldiers that swooped into the Baltics (Lithuania) this month on a mission to deter Russian aggression.
They have joined war games with local troops and new NATO battle groups deployed to the broader region — a buildup that collectively represents the alliance’s largest reinforcement of its eastern flank since the end of the Cold War.

https://www.socom.mil/Pages/posture-statement-hasc.aspx MAY 2, 2017
Reassurance Initiative funding to deter Russia and reassure Allies, including by working with NATO to build more effective defense institutions in partner nations. In support of this, we have had persistent SOF presence for over 2 years in nearly every European country on Russia's western border (Baltics, Poland, Romania, Ukraine, Georgia) – assuring our allies and partners while building host nation and NATO capabilities to compete short of conflict in a hybrid environment.

https://apnews.com/cb5d55ba66694c2ca0f4094e26926345 Jan. 12, 2017
... the new deployment — which includes some 3,500 U.S. troops — marks the first-ever continuous deployment to the region (Poland) by a NATO ally (US).
In a separate but related mission, NATO will also deploy four battalions to its eastern flank later this year, one each to Poland and the three Baltic states. The U.S. will also lead one of those battalions.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-us-troops-nato-
mission-poland-message-obama-putin-a7517281.html
. Monday 9 January 2017
American soldiers landed in Wroclaw, home to a key Nato and Polish air base in south-west Poland. The troops will be followed by around 2,800 tanks and other pieces of military equipment which are being transported by land from Germany.
It has been described as one of the largest movements of US troops to Europe since the Cold War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO (since the 1997 NATO-Russia Founding Act)
In 1999, Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic joined the organization, amid much debate within the organization and Russian opposition. Another expansion came with the accession of seven Central and Eastern European countries: Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia. These nations were first invited to start talks of membership during the 2002 Prague summit, and joined NATO shortly before the 2004 Istanbul summit. Albania and Croatia joined on 1 April 2009, prior to the 2009 Strasbourg–Kehl summit. The most recent member state to be added to NATO is Montenegro on 5 June 2017.



T H E W H I T E H O U S E
NATO-Russia Founding Act Signing
https://clintonwhitehouse4.archives.gov/WH/New/Europe/19970527-814.htm
l

There is an obligation to non-deploy on a permanent basis of combat forces of NATO near Russia. All of this means that we have agreed not to harm the security interests of each other. And I think it is the most important accomplishment for us all.

https://www.nato.int/cps/su/natohq/official_texts_25468.htm






SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Sunday, July 15, 2018 3:11 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


posting inaccurate, out-of-date opinion

NOBODY has found Hillary's 33,000 scrubbed 'private' emails.
Quote:

Originally posted by JJ:
July 27, 2016: Trump asked Russia to find Hillary’s emails. They acted within hours.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/july-27-2016-trump-asked-russi
a-to-find-hillary’s-emails-they-acted-within-hours/ar-AAA2aKY?ocid=spartanntp



MEANWHILE. according to the DoJ

Department of Justice
Office of Public Affairs
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Friday, July 13, 2018
Grand Jury Indicts 12 Russian Intelligence Officers for Hacking Offenses Related to the 2016 Election

There is no allegation in the indictment that any American was a knowing participant in the alleged unlawful activity or knew they were communicating with Russian intelligence officers. There is no allegation in the indictment that the charged conduct altered the vote count or changed the outcome of the 2016 election.

Everyone charged with a crime is presumed innocent unless proven guilty in court. At trial, prosecutors must introduce credible evidence that is sufficient to prove each defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, to the unanimous satisfaction of a jury of twelve citizens.

indictment here
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4599146-Netyksho-Et-Al-Indictm
ent-Copy.html






SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).

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Sunday, July 15, 2018 4:25 PM

JJ




T

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Monday, July 16, 2018 2:05 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Not exactly on topic, but I just heard news that America was on the verge of surpassing Russia in oil production.

So, will Germany buy oil from us now?

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