Funny Taser Video by SignyM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Since Hero thinks that Taser videos are funny, he should find this one a hoot!

The part where they taser him is funny, the part where he dies is not funny thus proving the age old saying about it all being funny till somebody dies.

The story did not seem allege a direct connection between the taser and the death. In fact they note the most disturbing part being the physical restraint of the man after being tasered by undue pressure to the head and neck. Perhaps more liberal use of the taser would have made the dangerous physical contact unecessary.

I would also suggest that if the Canadians were better trained and more capable of handling physical violence, this would not have happened.

Some folk might want to make a comment about the irony of a Polish guy getting himself killed by a nonlethal devise...but that would be wrong...I oppose such comments.

H

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, November 15, 2007 9:56 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Some folk might want to make a comment about the irony of a Polish guy getting himself killed by a nonlethal devise...but that would be wrong...I oppose such comments.

I watched the video........
First thought was how very unfortunate
Then, why was he "detained" for 10 hours?
Who wouldn't go "nuts" being detained that long?
I probably would start hurling things around if somebody held me for 1o hours.
He seemed to be making a gesture indicating surrender....really unclear why he was tasered.

What am I missing Hero in terms of this being ironic?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
What am I missing Hero in terms of this being ironic?

Why is it ironic? Clearly you have no idea how many Polish folk it takes to change a lightbulb or have never walked into a bar with a Polish man, a priest, and Osama Bin Ladden.

Not that I myself would ever make such comments...but I've heard them...on Comedy Central I think...

H

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:16 AM

JONGSSTRAW

You're right...I don't. Been a long time since I was in the 2nd grade.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, November 15, 2007 12:07 PM

Lemme guess... cause of death listed...

"Excited Delerium"

Right ?

Perfectly safe and effective, right ?

-F

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, November 15, 2007 12:17 PM

GRIZWALD

I had the impression that he waited there because his mom said she would meet him there, and then she couldn't get there because of security precautions, and eventually just went home because she was told he was not in the airport. Not that he was detained.

Could be just that he was in language/culture shock, but I also wonder if perhaps he had some mental problems that contributed to his inability to handle the situation or respond to gentle overtures from fellow travelers. Poor, poor man.

___________________________________________________
High Priestess of Pork and Ag-Related Activities of the MYTHICAL LAND OF IOWA

Click on my profile for my Annoyingly Long List of Firefly Links.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 16, 2007 4:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Since Hero thinks that Taser videos are funny, he should find this one a hoot!

I note for the record that I said I'd never seen a taser video that wasn't a little funny. Now I have. Like everything else in the world, there's always tragedy waiting to happen.

I have decided to revise and extend my earlier comments on this topic. Last night I had the opportunity to review the entire video and listen to the testimony of the witness. Two things are readily apparent.

1. The man was completely out of control and security handled it well be cordoning him off and calling for police support. I think the Airport security should be commended for their good handling of the situation, particularly their restrait (they could have piled on and used physical violence and I would not have blamed them...guy was throwing furnature and computers).

2. Upon the arrival of the police the man's demeanor changed dramatically. He was no longer demonstrative, seemed to calm down a great deal, and seemed to desire to coopoerate to the best of his ability given the language barrier. The police responded appropriately in that they attempted to get him to comply and when he did not comply with orders they tasered him.

That said the police failed to take into account his language problem, despite being told and it being readily apparent. They did not take into account his non-aggressive demeanor. The seemed to act too quickly, with incomplete information, and without regard to the totality of the circumstances. They then failed to percieve the man's medical distress and failed to act in a timely manner to attempt to mitigate his condition.

I understand the need, particularly in airports and such, to act quickly and decisivly, and I believe this was the goal of the officers, never the less I found this incident to be inappropriate from the moment the decision is made to initiate a violent physical confrontation with a tasered man.

I view this incident in the light most favorable to the police, but still reach that conclusion.

At best they demonstrate a simple lack of judgement likely from poor training, leadership, or policies, at worst criminal negligence.

There is nothing funny here. It is a tragedy that can be best avoided by good training and good disipline by law enforcement officers. I'm happy to say my City has both making the rare use of the taser (normally the threat is enough) safe and enjoyable for everyone (usually with one exception).

H

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 16, 2007 9:04 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

And don't forget this one, tasered for the crime of being unconscious in a diabetic coma:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_artic
le_id=494199&in_page_id=1770

And the nice woman tasered to death for talking in an airport:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/01/phoenix.airport.death/

Plus 500 other dead bodies electrocuted to death by police state death squads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendi_Deng
Hanoi Hannity: "Outsourcing your job is good for me."
"US ports owned by Commie China is good for me."
"Dead and disabled US soldiers are good for me."
"Sir Rupert dines with Hillary every week."
"Ron Paul does not exist in my 'Verse."

"As far as Chinese goes, I resented it."
-Adam Tudyk, The Making of Firefly

FOX, MYSPACE & FIREFLY OWNED BY COMMUNIST CHINA!
www.piratenews.org/pntv-schedule.html

Does that seem right to you?
Firefly Music Video: Tangerine dream - Confrontation, Thief soundtrack
www.megavideo.com/?v=JVT35GR8
www.scifi.com/onair/

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 16, 2007 10:04 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Huh. Hero, as much as you try to hide it, you DO have a heart after all.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 16, 2007 10:08 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

'Hero' thinks that any type of physical or mental suffering is OK until someone gets physically damaged - 'hurt'.

I wonder how he would prosecute a hate crime like a cross burning, or emotional abuse of children. B/c they must be a real hoot to him - after all, no on got 'hurt'.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 16, 2007 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I wonder how he would prosecute a hate crime like a cross burning, or emotional abuse of children. B/c they must be a real hoot to him - after all, no on got 'hurt'.

The emotional abuse of children is a very subjective area. Some consider making a child play sports to be emotional abuse. Then again some parents are very good a beating a child down with words but never laying a finger on them.

Even if proven such conduct may not rise to be a criminal violation in every case. That does not mean the State is powerless since Child Services has powers the prosecutor does not. If a crime, as defined by the Ohio Revised Code, has been committed, I'll prosecute it...

I recently prosecuted a nice lady for Child Endangering after she let her little kid wander several blocks away to the grocery store. I also prosecuted some parents for not sending their kids to school (and not home schooling them either...just leaving them at the motel while the parents went off to their jobs).

As for cross burning, thats ones never come up. If it does...well I doubt those folks will be very welcome in the County jail...

I note for the record I did recently prosecute a racially motivated assault with a deadly weapon. Guy got drunk and went after neighbor all the while using the "N" word. Good case. Fella is in prison now. The Civil Rights violation is a Federal matter and I referred it to the DOJ, but since we got a conviction and nobody got killed, they'll probably let it be (after all no point putting him in jail if he's already in jail).

H

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 16, 2007 11:09 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

So if one neighbor tasers another is that an assault ? Or a joke ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 16, 2007 11:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So if one neighbor tasers another is that an assault ? Or a joke ?

No reason it can't be both. It'll be really funny to the guy NOT going to jail.

H

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 16, 2007 11:19 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I wonder what your bosses would think of you saying you find the crimes you prosecute to be amusing, as opposed to, say, unacceptable ...

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 16, 2007 11:52 AM

TPAGE

Hey, thought I would throw my two cents in as I'm living in Vancouver and have heard a lot about this Taser incident.

1. The man who was tasered was told by his mother to wait at the baggage claim for her. She forgot the baggage claim is on the other side of customs. Therefore, he waited and waited and waited for his mother.

2. At some point he become aggressive, throwing chairs and the like.

3. Security cordoned him off and attempted communication, but as you can see hear in the video no one knew which language he spoke (they assumed it was Russian).

4. The police were called in and as he was already aggressive they met his force with the taser (which I might add has been proven to be harmless except in cases of drugs or rare medical conditions), and is a much better option than whacking him over the head with batons.

I will point out that the Police could have given him another chance to calm down upon his realising the police were getting involved. Nonetheless he was not submitting to their authority and there was a stand off.

5. Once he was tasered, regardless of whether he should have been or not, he resisted. You can hear a bystander in the video mention that he wasn't giving in. This is the reason the officers were required to subdue him by body weight until they could properly restrain him.

Unfortunately, the effect of that pressure on his heart combined with the state he was in resulted in a heart attack.

While I believe that the police could have taken a extra step or two I in no way believe they did not follow due process and while unfortunate and sad they are in no way culpable for his death.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

And if someday on some little piss-ant moon/My hand is a little too slow, or my aim a little bit off/At least I’ll go down fighting, not lying abed surrounded by quacks - "Sir Warrick" by Geezer

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 16, 2007 6:19 PM

"That said the police failed to take into account his language problem, despite being told and it being readily apparent. They did not take into account his non-aggressive demeanor. The seemed to act too quickly, with incomplete information, and without regard to the totality of the circumstances. They then failed to percieve the man's medical distress and failed to act in a timely manner to attempt to mitigate his condition.

I understand the need, particularly in airports and such, to act quickly and decisivly, and I believe this was the goal of the officers, never the less I found this incident to be inappropriate from the moment the decision is made to initiate a violent physical confrontation with a tasered man.

I view this incident in the light most favorable to the police, but still reach that conclusion.

At best they demonstrate a simple lack of judgement likely from poor training, leadership, or policies, at worst criminal negligence."

Well, Hero has left me with nothing to say, cause that is my assesment as well, although my version of it woulda been a lot less polite.

We need to address a lot of this conduct at the training and policy level, rather than incident by incident, after the fact.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, November 16, 2007 11:28 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello all,

I've noticed a lot of witch hunting going around, and I wish we'd stop it. I am guilty of this to some extent. I think it's possible to disagree with someone's position without villifying them.

Are the conservative tyrants and liberal communists amongst our fan base really deserving of all the vitriol and vendetta that we can muster? Do we need to follow them from thread to thread and pick them apart, not for the strength of their logic, but for the crime of representing the 'wrong position' or the 'wrong side?'

If these chosen nemeses display chronically flawed reasoning, then ought we not to rejoice instead of lambasting them? Surely, it will therefore be easier to deconstruct their arguments. We have no cause to insult their character if we can defeat their position.

I wish we'd all do better than to label each other and make enemies. I wish we wouldn't resort to name-calling and judgementalism. Whatever our political disagreements, I'm confident that at the end of the day, we're not all that different.

That means that Hero doesn't have horns on his head, Rue isn't foaming at the mouth, and even Piratenews probably isn't wearing a tinfoil hat

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, November 17, 2007 7:29 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I'm curious - did I foam ? Did I call anyone names ?

I thought I did a pretty good job de-constructing Hero's logic - by following it to its logical end.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
even Piratenews probably isn't wearing a tinfoil hat

Hmmm. And if he does, is that a problem?

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I wonder what your bosses would think of you saying you find the crimes you prosecute to be amusing, as opposed to, say, unacceptable ...

My bosses realize that I deal with a lot of bad stuff. A person with my job and the wrong attitude quickly burns out and turns self destructive.

Now me I find all crime unacceptable. Plain and simple I go to work every day set to prosecute every criminal I can get my hands on. In doing so I deal with the world of crap. Bad Defendants, incompetant Defense Attorneys, bad judge rulings, the "one" juror who holds out, victims who are not sympathetic, witnesses who are bad, a mountain of paper, plus dealing with every little issue that comes up in any of the five Police Departments I prosecute for 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and 52 weeks a year.

But I love my job. I get to serve the community, I get to punish pedophiles and thieves, and yes I have the right and privilage to enjoy my work. I look foreward to new cases, I whistle on my way in on Mondays and take my cell with me on Fridays so I can be 'on call'.

How many of you can truly say you love your job? I can and a big reason why is because I can allow myself to be amused and find the humor in the stupid crap I deal with. I suggest that without that I'd not be happy in my work...and if I want to work a job I don't like I'd just take one of those six figure law firm jobs I get offered every year or so.

I note for the record that I've found many others that share this attitude about their jobs...not just lawyers. Cops, Doctors, nurses, teachers, animal shelter workers, and even computer geeks. They all share that kind of attitude to some extent more or less.

H

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:31 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Despite all your words - where the rubber meets the road, you find people screaming and writhing in pain amusing.

Of all the things one can find humor in - that one would disqualify anyone from their job: lawyers. cops, doctors, nurses, teachers, animal shelter workers, and even computer geeks.

***************************************************************
Lets' try it on for size-

a teacher finds it amusing to see a student screaming in pain

a nurse finds it amusing to see a patient screaming in pain

a doctor finds it amusing to see a patient screaming in pain

an animal shelter worker finds it amusing to see an animal screaming in pain

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Despite all your words - where the rubber meets the road, you find people screaming and writhing in pain amusing.

So you would never be caught watching America's Funniest Videos, Cops, World's Wildest Police Chases, or half the videos on YouTube.

Fine, thats your choice. Unfortunately I am required to watch videos of people at their worst. The worst behaivor, often dangerous to themselves and, far more importantly, dangerous to others including the police. If I cried tears of sympathy for every one I would not last a week. Thats what Public Defenders are for (a paid Defense Attorney's sympathy...is most often bought).

H

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:43 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

As part of my hospital work, I watched people die every day, in real life in real time. Of all the times and places where one might want to 'toughen up' that would be one of them.

And while there were many things I thought about people dying, amusing wasn't one of them.

***************************************************************
added - but I am curious. How deeply is that entrenched in your local work culture ? Do you get together with other like-minded people for a drink after work and laugh about taserings ? Or is yours a private pleasure ?

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, November 17, 2007 11:35 AM

Far be it for me to stand up for this berk, but I have to throw in that such is generally a defense mechanism - in certain work, you see horrors so awful, so often, than unless you develop a very dark, if not outright black, sense of humor, you WILL lose your sanity after a while.

I've known two homicide detectives and a city coroner who's humor you'd find way more offensive, and given some of what I do - I've been at times offended by even my own amusement.

I mean, look at a battlefield, and it's stresses, on the spot, in the environment, one might find the disembodied leg of an enemy soldier spasmodically kicking itself in a circle downright hysterical - but it's not, it's simply a defense mechanism against such horrors as the human mind was never meant to concieve.

And believe me, I consider our "justice" system one of those horrors, from the on the street law enforcement, to the court and bench, to the penal system - the entire thing is so utterly dehumanizing that it poisons everyone who touches it, the stanford prison experiment is just the teensiest, tiniest taste of it... and add in some milgram for seasoning and human nature, and you have a genuine living nightmare even for folk with the very best of intentions.

This is what happens when you fall to the lure of the One Ring (Government).

Anyhows, yes, sure, he's a sick bastard, but he is an element in a system capable of producing nothing else - even the castoffs and hollow eyed burnouts are somewhat twisted.

The only difference between a courtroom and a cage match is that the gladiators in a courtroom wear suits, but beyond that it's every bit as savage.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, November 17, 2007 11:39 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Despite all your words - where the rubber meets the road, you find people screaming and writhing in pain amusing.

So you would never be caught watching America's Funniest Videos, Cops, World's Wildest Police Chases, or half the videos on YouTube.

H

Speaking personally I don't. I'm not even fond of what I call "humiliation humor" movies where the "laughs" derive from pranking someone.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, November 17, 2007 1:24 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
even Piratenews probably isn't wearing a tinfoil hat
Hmmm. And if he does, is that a problem?

I heard a conspiracy theory that aluminum causes cancer. So... yeah.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, November 17, 2007 1:31 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I'm curious - did I foam ? Did I call anyone names ?

I thought I did a pretty good job de-constructing Hero's logic - by following it to its logical end.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

No, Rue, you're judgemental. So am I, for that matter. That's why I say 'we' have to do better.

I mean, you've determined that Hero doesn't deserve his job because of his opinions. I know, I know, "That's not judgemental, that's justice. Someone with those opinions shouldn't be doing a job where..." I can run the line through my head without your help. I've thought it all before.

We should only care about one thing. We should care that he does his job well. (And, frankly, we will never have any way of knowing.) He can burn Christ in effigy on Sundays and watch Nazi propaganda in his spare time while eating popcorn and jacking off. (Which I am NOT suggesting he does.)

He can have any opinion, perception, or attitude he wants, and none of us know enough about him to judge him for it. None of us have the right to determine his worthiness for his job or anything else. We should restrict our judgement to his individual positions, not to his person.

In my humble opinion.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:26 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hi Frem

I take it you've never heard of hospital humor. Where I work now there's one other ex-hospital person and every now and again we swap stories. I think there are some jobs where only people who've had those jobs understand. Police understand police, hospital people understand hospital people, military understand military and so on.

There were many things we found funny. For example, a doctor who had just returned to work after having a heart attack did chest compressions for a really long time on a person who came in as - essentially - a corpse (fracture of the base of the skull with bloody spinal fluid leaking out of the ears and nose). After 30 minutes everyone else was rolling their eyes at each other. The doctor finally bagged it after nearly an hour. But everyone was snickering behind his back.

But we weren't snickering over the patient's death.

And remember, Hero's not talking about the release of tension at the spur of the moment. No, he's talking about selecting other's pain, finding it, watching it after-the-fact in the relaxed comfort of his living room chair. To find people screaming in pain amusing under those circumstances is perverted, wouldn't you say ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, November 17, 2007 6:43 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"He can have any opinion, perception, or attitude he wants, and none of us know enough about him to judge him for it."

The one thing you do know about him is that he has that opinion, perception, or attitude. And uh, then what DO you judge people for ? The clothes they wear ?

"None of us have the right to determine his worthiness for his job or anything else."

I don't know if you were old enough or followed the Rodney King case well enough (come to LA where we'll treat you like a King !), but one of the policemen involved - Powell - was disgraced to be tagged with this: 'Powell described the scene of a domestic disturbance involving African-Americans as right out of "Gorillas in the Mist.'"
You know, maybe despite his personal gratification over watching suspects being tasered he really can do an impartial job. I rather doubt it. And I don't think Hero's superiors would be any too pleased to know that that kind of attitude exists.

In case you think I'm being too harsh - I've been told by someone I think is a credible source - ex LAPD - that the CHP is legendary for their public skills. That people will often say 'thank you' to them after getting a ticket - b/c they've been treated with respect. And that it was the CHP who were out of their jurisdiction who witnessed helpless and shocked King's beating by the LAPD. You don't get that kind of reputation or reaction by harboring a secret culture of petty bullies and sadists. B/c sooner or later it does come out in very work-related ways.

As it did and continues to do with the LAPD, and maybe even in Hero's neck of the woods.

IMHO

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, November 17, 2007 11:05 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I guess my point, Rue, is that hearing his position on one topic, or thinking you understand one of his failings, does not tell you everything you need to know about him as a human being.

I further believe it IS possible to have a personal prejudice, kink, etc and not let it interfere with your work. In the Home Equity business, for instance, I have worked with racist people who do not let their racism affect their decisioning. Their racism is regrettable, but it's their conduct at work that determines whether they keep their jobs.

I think it's possible for Hero to laugh at misfortune (probably because he sees so much of it, and prefers laughter to tears) and still do a good job at his business. Ever read Stranger in a Strange Land's take on humor? It's illuminating.

You also can't (shouldn't) ascribe to him the failings of the LAPD. The fact is, Hero can disagree with us, have a different political position, and even deal with pain differently than us... and still be good at his job. He might even be a great guy.

I don't always agree with either of you. (Though I think I more frequently disagree with Hero. He doesn't seem to place personal Liberties on the level I like) But I don't know either of you well enough to judge you. If you were a fry cook, I wouldn't assume you'd burn the fries of LAPD customers just because you might not like them. We can't assume Hero allows personal prejudice to interfere with his job, either.

This internet thing is a one dimensional way to meet people, and we shouldn't judge people based on this one-sided window. That's all.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 18, 2007 2:14 AM

I disagree, Anthony.. my theory, my take on it, is thus.

You wanna take the real measure of another person, contrary to Shaun Yu, you simply remove all consequence, for good or ill, from their actions.

And then you observe what they do.

Cause at the root of it, what you do, is who you are.

The real "core person" comes out, you see, how they wish to be, unhindered by threat of consequence - and this says a damn lot about them personally, especially viewed over time, in an overall sense, it tells you who they are behind the polite fictions we hold up as masks in public.

He's a twisted dude, working in a twisted system, and sadistically reveling in the power it gives him, especially since as a prosecutor, the deck is massively pre-stacked in his favor, and prosecutor misconduct is so very rarely penalized that it's front page news when it happens.

I could maybe overlook that, if it were not for the fact that all he believes in, all that he represents, with fanatic devotion, is a direct threat to my beliefs and personhood - he knows it, and celebrates it, so there's no way in hell I can be anything but downright crass to him directly - conversely, my very existance and actions are a similar threat to all he holds dear.

When you threaten a person at the root of all they are, generally the human reaction and response is to throw all your force against it in hopes of savaging it's power to harm you.

In light of that, you just ain't gonna get polite, it's not gonna happen, not even possible, consider it a minor miracle that any discussion at all takes place.

I sure hell ain't the nicest of folk either, but my agenda is as crystal clear as I can make it, right up front, you have to give me that one, at the very least.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 18, 2007 2:29 AM

Amen Fletch, I ain't never found it funny neither.

Re: Hospital Humor...

Doll, I *AM* hospital humor, the guy they kept waitin for to die so they could clear the room for the next one.. who just.. wouldn't.

After a while it got funny even to me!

Not to mention the fact that I fired any doc or therapist who uttered the words "won't" or "can't" and replaced them with some mad scientist types who joke that they could do frankenstein one better any day of the week and would probably try, given the opportunity.

And of course the whole "patient: some assembly required" bit, detachable limbs come with a whole range of side-joke options

I think the darkest bit of that was the pulse monitor going flatline when the sensor fell off, and the doc commenting "About damn time!" only to be met with a patient awake and aware, if just barely, who handed him a an empty coffee mug "Not quite yet, get me some coffee, bitch!" - it was just so totally ludicrous that we had to laugh, you know ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 18, 2007 2:50 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

In another thread, far away.... we discussed whether the USA was a police state. And one of the questions that came up was whether ALL cops were bad people. Hero said... it {is} all funny till somebody dies. No, wait, that was Hero talking about himself.

My point is not that Hero is a bad person, but that the criminal justice system dehumanizes everyone who works in it. Not only do cops, detectives, and prosecutors see the horrors that most people are shielded from, their job is to be vengeful and of course they see people as "evil". That's why cops can stand over a person writhing and screaming and apply the taser over and over... and prosecutors can find it funny. It's not a normal response and everyone who participates in it is pathological to some extent, but it's part of the system.

The difference between nurses/ doctors/ social workers versus soldiers/ cops/ prosecutors is the mission to HELP. That's why medical professionals can see the same horrors (car accident) but develop a different response. People who use guns or tasers or "punishment" are shaped by the tools they use.

The answer is to get away from the view vengeance can resolve our crime problem. Very few criminals are "cured" of their behavior by a stint in jail.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 18, 2007 3:27 AM

And Sig rapidly approaches the topic of 'Means and Ends'
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=31493

We allow the system to exist as it is, part of the price is it's tendency to dehumanize that which it is ostensibly put in place to serve.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 18, 2007 6:13 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"You wanna take the real measure of another person, contrary to Shaun Yu, you simply remove all consequence, for good or ill, from their actions."

Hello,

There is some merit to this viewpoint. You made me pause and reconsider my position. The internet is, after all, an opportunity to display ourselves to the world in whatever way we like.

However, I propose that how we wish we were, and how we see ourselves, often bears little resemblance to who we are. Many are the rebels who cower in the face of consequence. Many are the tough guys who melt before an adversary. Many are the men who weep in secret during a chick flick, and curse themselves for their 'weakness.'

The faux tough guy is unlikely to position himself as a coward online. The flick weeper is unlikely to admit to his 'failing' in a forum. The rebel will continue to lambast the 'man' and advocate rebellion even though he fears jail more than he loves his philosophy of freedom.

Sometimes what we project in an arena 'without consequence' bears little resemblance to who we are. Sometimes it is what we do despite consequences that really reveals us. That having been said, your premise has really made me think this over.

Still, I believe you need a 360 degree perception of someone before you can judge them as a person. It's different from saying, 'Was it wrong of him to steal that man's hubcaps?' That is a specific question with clear points of evidence.

Asking 'Is he a bad guy?' is a much deeper question and one that requires a great deal of insight. We don't get that here, and I don't think we should rush to judgement without it. Why would we want to?

It's enough that Hero has bad ideas. We don't need to see him as a bad person.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 18, 2007 7:51 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

AnthonyT- In my last post I really wasn't trying to pin anything on Hero specifically, I was talking more generally about "people" and "systems".

But you bring up an interesting point about people's response to consequences: "Punishment" DOES work as a deterrent. But not jail time. The punishment that people fear most is separation from their group of choice through embarassment etc. As a deterrent to bad behavior punishment has to be nearly immediate, and it has to be meaningful to the person being punished. A lot of gang-bangers, for instance, see going to jail as a way of earning the chops. Our particular system is really just vengeance masquerading as "justice". So I wonder: Are we really interested in reducing crime, or do we just want to be angry and righteous?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 18, 2007 7:55 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

LeadB, you get my point! Most people don't

YAAAAAY!!! :fireworks:

Thanks for the discussion folks. (That means you too Hero). Gotta get to work. Hope to catch up later.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 18, 2007 9:45 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hi Frem

I was hesitating to post my story, knowing your own history. So I'm glad it didn't throw you off.

Hi AnthonyT

I knew of a guy who was quite popular with the boss, co-workers and neighbors but would beat up and terrorize his wife and children because there were no 'consequences' to that. And studies have found generally that on-line discussions tend to be meaner b/c the 'consequences' you get with face to face interactions are missing. I would think in general that people more freely express their 'true' selves online than in real life.

SignyM

Many people become dehumanized and some people are born that way, IMHO. I think MOST people respond to the system they are in, but it goes beyond the 'type' of system.

For example two county hospitals compared and two police systems compared.

Erie County Medical Center (one of the hospitals where I worked) was a phenomenal county hospital staffed with capable, dedicated employees. Compare that with King-Drew the LA County House of Horrors, which has continued as charnel house despite progressive loss of federal funding and a complete replacement of upper management plus direct oversight. The CHP are noted for their professionalism, due, I've been told, to the efforts of one person who somehow found a way to completely turn then around. Compare them with the LAPD which has been a thuggish organization for decades resistant to changes at the top. And so on.
It seems once a 'culture' becomes established by whatever means, it becomes resistant to change. I wish it were as easy as - if you build it, they will change. But there's an least one extra part of the system and it's unknown to me.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 18, 2007 10:11 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Rue: I guess my point is that "the system" as we have currently constructed it doesn't really deter crime, which is its putative goal.

If you take a look at a lot of crimes, especialy the more horrific ones... the kind that really make people WANT to string up the perp... there are a lot of reasons why they're committed:

drugs
traumatic brain injury
other organic brain problems
poisoning
other physical illness
alientation
former abuse
psychiatric illness
"born that way"

These are the people LEAST likely to be thinking about "consequences". When I hear of something truly horrific, my lizard-brain says STRING EM UP! I get angry. But I wait a couple of seconds, and think about the whys and wherefores and question whether jail time would really keep this from happening again (either with the same people of by example) and the answer is most often NO.

Usually the perp needs to detox, or take the right meds. Sometimes it's as simple as putting them in charge of someone who's even worse off than they are. (These kinds of programs for "at risk" youths have the lowest recidivism rate, while "boot camp" programs have the highest.) Sometimes there is no resolution, and that person simply needs to be isolated from others.

Yes, punishment works for some. At times all it takes is a slap uspide the head, and the perp recognizes that Hey, other people take this seriously. I'd better clean up my act! I suspect that works for littering, graffiti, white collar crime, yelling at the kids, and for people whose brains are functioning properly... they're just committing crimes of convenience. But unfortunately the justice system doesn't take notice until the crimes are serious, and by the time it rises to the level of being noticed by the "justice" system the person has had a LONG history of that kind of behavior "working" for them in some fashion, and the threat of punshiment is not much of a deterrent.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 18, 2007 10:32 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hi SignyM

Oh - I thought you were making a point about people responding to the type of system they're in. And while I agree that most people do, there does seem to be some extra factor that causes people to respond out of 'type' - King-Drew and the CHP are two good examples.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 18, 2007 10:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Hi AnthonyT

I knew of a guy who was quite popular with the boss, co-workers and neighbors but would beat up and terrorize his wife and children because there were no 'consequences' to that. And studies have found generally that on-line discussions tend to be meaner b/c the 'consequences' you get with face to face interactions are missing. I would think in general that people more freely express their 'true' selves online than in real life.

I've been hesitant to comment on this topic, but I will risk voicing a different perspective.

Posting on the internet within a community is not completely without consequence. I will agree that you get more 'honest' answers here than you will from folks you have 'just met' in real life; at the same time, folks develop reputation; and folks are -projecting a persona-. This last part may manifest in folks 'overstating' their position to either make a point or perhaps to somewhat escape reality. As a consequence, it is somewhat dangerous to take completely at face values things post on the internet.

I'm going to risk commenting on some recent posts Hero made; and I apologize 'up front' for talking about him like he isn't here; and if he asks I'll purge the balance of this post (Hero: I'm hoping you'll take this in the spirit intended).
At one point, Hero made the 'famous' quote, I never saw a taser video that wasn't funny.' I admit when I first saw that, I seriously wondered about his sanity (or wondered if he was seeing some of the video I had bumped into while trying to form an opinion about tasers). DESPITE that, he sees this one, and acknowledges it is -not- funny; that in fact he can highlight specific points where the police made mistakes. This actually relieved a great deal of my fears regarding his character (or at least, the character he is trying to project here.) However, rather than acknowledging he's clearly not as 'out there' as he had originally positioned himself, most folks continue to pound on him like he hadn't said a word above. It astounds me.

It is my belief that Hero gets tired of hearing the "Cops are unfair to me" "The system is putting me down, I didn't do nuthin." It is my belief that Hero himself is probably about a 'good as cog' as any in the system, personally attempts to make the system 'as good as possible' and would have no tolerance for police 'shenanigans' if he personally came across any. And my guess is the police in his area know this, and try to live up to his expectations; thus driving to what I would expect to be a 'better system' than if someone with less integrity were in the position that he holds.

As to finding humor in 'odd' places, I will simply reference 'gallows humor' and say not much more.

HAVING SAID THAT, I do not mean to discount other folks struggles with 'the system'; but will only observe that Hero most likely was not in the area where you had your struggles with 'the system' and thus is not particularly aware of what problems lurk in those portions of the system.

** Now practicing 'duck and cover.'

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 18, 2007 11:57 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hi LeadB

Hero (same apologies) was quite upfront about the idea that it's all funny until someone dies. That's actually what I have an objection to. Finding the vision of a person screaming, writhing, crawling away in pain amusing is twisted, even if they don't die from it.

And Hero keeps trying to 'normalize' it.

Doesn't everybody ? Isn't that what AFV and YouTube is all about ? People screaming in pain at the hands of another ? And even if not everybody does, it's my job. It drives me to it. It keeps me from burning out. Just like teachers, and nurses and doctors and animal shelter workers ... but unlike them I can't afford to be sympathetic, so it's different, even though it's the same. Oh yeah, and I love my job, too. That counts.

Because he tries to 'normalize' it, it makes me think that even he realizes it's at the very least not acceptable.

Even though Hero tries to frame it as this or that, there are many responses to choose from. It's not a matter of either turning into a puddle of sympathy or snickering over a defendant's pain. Hero chooses to find it amusing.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 18, 2007 1:23 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Prosecutors, police etc often focus on the "free will" nature of crime. It was a "chosen" behavior. Altho Eileen Wuornos had been abused since childhood and hooked at the age of 13 to support herself, she "chose" to kill all those men. Altho Andrea Yates was profoundly depressed and heard voices, she "chose" to kill her kids.

What strikes me then is the illogic of saying that prosecutors, police, and detectives get a "pass" on bad behavior because they're traumatized by the violence they see in their jobs. And these professions often develop their own little subculture of what's acceptable and what isn't, plus a sense of alienation from "regular" folks.

The same COULD be said for many criminals, who often have backgrounds of abuse (to the point of brain damage) and neglect, combined with mental dysfunction and their own little subculture of alienation. And the criminals have to endure the violence first-hand 24-7, not just watching videos of it at work. So if criminals "choose" their criminal behavior, the same should be said for cops (and prosecutors) who "choose" to be less than empathetic. But if cops and prosecutors get a "pass", so should criminals.

When I look at it this way, I see a culture just totally traumatized by violence. First-hand, when kids are abused or grow up in violent neighborhoods. And then second-hand trauma in the people who are sent to deal with it in a violent way. The answer to violence is not more violence. If we stopped looking at this as a problem of "justice" and focused on treatment, sending people to drug treatment programs, and using social workers instead of cops, we'd prolly get better results.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 18, 2007 1:24 PM

FWIW, I only find AFV sometimes amusing; and that which I don't tends to keep me from watching it on a regular basis. But I will observe that AFV has had a relatively long run. It makes me wonder if -I'm- not normal. Perhaps I'm not, but I think I can deal with it ;-)

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 18, 2007 1:33 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Sometimes I laugh while watching AFV, but I often wince which is why I don't watch it very often either. People are on a spectrum- some have more empathy than others. But our culture is particularly punitive, and what empathy people have is often ground right out of them.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 18, 2007 4:01 PM

Siggys mad a lot of my case for me here, and prolly more coherently that I coulda done it.
Ain't nothin I haven't been sayin in many ways over a long time, anyhow.
Especially on the "free pass" issue.

Leadb I think has also gotten similar sentiments about a system being put in place to defend something, actively attacking it instead.

So on that front I've little else to say.

As for perception once consequence is removed...

Anthony, I know it's not a full picture that way, but tells you who they are inside, who they wish they were, and that really does tell you a lot about them, more so than most folk would believe it does - if you look slow and careful.

I offer this, hesitantly, but still enough folk might have put it together after Jack convinced us to spill Meyers-Briggs...

Consequence of various type does have it's uses and the acknowledgement of em isn't always a bad thing - but not everyone can mentally get "here from there", lifestyle-violent offenders, particularly juvenille ones, simply do not have the ability to look that far ahead and thus nothing but an immediate on the spot consquence has any effect whatever on their behavior.

And some folk, ISTP in particular, do not feel fear - that is NOT courage, but rather, imho, a limited form of insanity.. courage is when you're scared out of your wits and take action regardless, but to not feel fear can lead one into some damn stupid conduct.

There's also folk who are by virtue of employment or social status, somewhat removed from the consequences of their own actions.

So that's not always a good ruler to measure by either, you see.

Short of being in their head, a persons actions are really in effect all you can perceive them by, and the truth of them far better than a persons words.

Try watching TV with the sound off, or observing people in general by focusing on their actions rather than their speech, for a while, and you might get what I am tryin to put across here - who ya are, is what ya do.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, November 19, 2007 11:27 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Friends, family mourn 'good kid' who died after Taser incident
Quote:
Friends and family identified the 20-year-old Frederick, Maryland, man who died after police used a Taser stun gun on him Sunday morning, according to a local television station.... A deputy used a Taser on Gray, who fell unconscious, Bailey said. He was taken to Frederick Memorial Hospital where he was pronounced dead.

www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/19/taser.death/index.html

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, November 19, 2007 1:26 PM