Cooperation is hardwired by SignyM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

If we were to design a system that didn't favor the sociopaths, I wonder what it would look like.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 10:39 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The problem is that the sociopaths rise to power and then design the system.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 10:44 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The problem is that the sociopaths rise to power and then design the system.

To put it another way. Management promotes in it's own image.

And rather disturbingly, it's often easier to give an incompetant moron a promotion than sack them...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 11:10 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The problem is that the sociopaths rise to power and then design the system.
To put it another way. Management promotes in it's own image.

And rather disturbingly, it's often easier to give an incompetant moron a promotion than sack them...

It's called the Peter Principle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 11:18 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
And rather disturbingly, it's often easier to give an incompetant moron a promotion than sack them...

It's called the Peter Principle

Oh....that explains Nancy Pelosi.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 11:27 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Oh....that explains Nancy Pelosi.

Jong, that pretty much explains Washington.

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 11:33 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Swenyways, one idea that I read is that if some people use power structures to their advantage (and the disadvantage of most everyone else), create a society without power structures - ie an anarchy.
I am not quite sure how you get such a society to work. And it depends on a certain level of technical development to start so it's not something that could be implemented just anywhere.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 11:37 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Oh....that explains Nancy Pelosi

Jong, that pretty much explains Washington.

LOL...Thanks for having a sense of humor about these things. She's at war with the Salvation Army now, and Bush is cashing in his dollars for Euros. What a woild!

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 12:17 PM

FREDGIBLET

Anarchies can work fine, you just have to be down with subsistence farming and fighting off roving bandits. Or having your entire life run by a corporation that isn't even slightly beholden to your opinion.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 1:10 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I reposted part of this from 'ends and means' b/c it more properly belongs here. I think SignyM has done a great job proposing that people often respond to natural and social structures in ways we don't understand. And I think in discussions of 'human nature' he's gathered a convincing amount of information to support that idea.

☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

for example (reposted):

"One thing SignyM pm'd is an interesting idea. That people are born with a capacity for empathy, that once invoked, literally changes the way they view the world.

Here were some examples:
1 the tough cha chas in LA who were so moved by the plight of Afghani women under the Taliban they started an aid program and along the way gave up their gansta' ways
2 the program that makes non-violent troubled youth into mentors to severely disabled children, which turns the lives around of nearly all the troubled children
3 the girl who puts up with sexual abuse until daddy goes after the younger sister

What SignyM pointed out that was interesting was that these people live their lives without sympathy for themselves. But the capacity for empathy for others is there in many people, and once sparked, it changes the entire way they view the world and themselves."

☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

But I think that besides finding and changing the structures to which we relate – as if Jane Goodall’s chimpanzees had distributed the fruit themselves - we also need to essentially change the way we view ourselves and our world. Because people are also, to a large degree, shaped by their own ideas of who they are and what the world is like. We need to match our notions better to reality.

Due to our technology we are now no longer weak and vulnerable creatures on the edge of survival. We no longer go hungry then strip our world of whatever we see to feast for the future famine. We no longer have to have many children just to have a few survive. At this point, our survival individually and as a species is guaranteed. The paradigm, as they say, has shifted. And our thinking needs to reflect that. If it doesn't then we are certifiably crazy, thinking we live in a world that doesn't exist, and reacting to things that aren’t there.

So when people say greed is good – and besides it’s how nature works – they’re chanting an old ‘answer’ for a different time. Now it’s just a recipe for suspicion and hate, insecurity, and wasting the planet.

Many posts ago LeadB asked what would I replace our current system with, and I answered – a philosophy. Now you know what my answer meant.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 2:20 PM

Ummm...

HellllOOooo, folks are just now realizing this ?
Didja somehow miss it the first 5-8 times either myself of HKCav brought it up here ?

This general concept comes from Peter Kropotkin, a russian anarchist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Kropotkin

And much of it from "Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution." written by him in 1902.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/kropotkin/mutaidcontents
.html

That's always been my point of contention - that the idea of human nature being so vile is an excuse, cause IF true then any attempt to change our society is wasted so why bother...

A convenient, though untrue, excuse to do nothing and preserve the status quo, usually offered by those benefitting in some way from it.

MY view on it, is that our sociopathic society, rammed down the throat of a child, comes in conflict with their inner hardwiring and creates many of the behavioral and emotional issues we see in school age children - and over time this has been multiplied by the sheer and growing size of the gap between what their instincts are telling them and what they are being taught, directly or otherwise.

In short, you could say they're "choking on the kool-aid", as it were, because what they are being taught in a very force-fed manner, is so radically at odds with what their instincts are telling them, that everything upstairs just kinda shorts out - no telling where it goes after that, too many factors and no way to track them all.

But there you have it.

Take a look at how folks a generation or two ahead of you react to Torture TV like COPS or Fear Factor, and other shite funneled at us to break down our resistances and give us a nice rush whenever we spike our own empathy, retraining the mental processes.

Watch, and learn.

We're MONSTERS in this day and age folks, ownin up to it would be the first step toward fixin it.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 4:38 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Here is one more nail in the coffin of social Darwinism...

But not Darwinism in general. The folk who didn't have the hardwiring for cooperation didn't survive.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 6:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
They then were presented with the toys to see which they would play with.

Nearly every baby picked the helpful toy over the bad one. www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/11/21/infant.judging.ap/index.html

Does this mean that I can no longer use hard wiring as an excuse for every bad decision I have ever made. I think I need to use my monkey given ability to rationalise, otherwise I might have to except responsibility for my own choices.

"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 7:12 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

So cooperation is a good thing?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 7:43 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
capitalism!

Joe, who takes a second mortgage on his home to open Joe's Pizza Parlor? He's a capitalist, owning the means of pizza production, and risking his capital in hopes of a profitable return.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 8:50 AM

No,

the mortgage company, for while joe has to take the consequences if his pizza business fails, the mortgage company can go running to big daddy government to steal more of joes money to ensure their bottom line if their mortgage business tanks.

Capitalism my ass.

-F

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 9:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
People keep talking about "human nature" as if we were vicious, solitary predators just itching to screw eveyone over.
Even infants can tell the difference between naughty and nice playmates, and know which to choose, a new study finds.
Quote:

Nearly every baby picked the helpful toy over the bad one. The babies also chose neutral toys -- ones that didn't help or hinder -- over the naughty ones.

www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/11/21/infant.judging.ap/index.html

It occurs to me that maybe the babies are responding to a more primeval impulse by identifying helpfulness and neutrality as weakness. I would be interested to know if 100% of the babies after choosing the "helpful" or "neutral" toy immediately put it in their mouth.

"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 9:56 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

There are too many studies indicating the hard-wired nature of cooperation to dispute the overall idea. It would take a MAJOR revolution in current interpretation of fMRIs and brain neuro-chemistry, and a complete revamping of brain anatomy and function to refute all the different lines of evidence pointing that way.

Anyway, back to the idea of islanders. One group that never made it were the Greenlanders. They were so stuck on the idea of dairy cattle as a symbol of prosperity and so resistant to adopting alternate subsistence (fishing) that as the weather cooled they became a less and less robust society until they finally petered out. If they had an 'ism' it would have been cultural'ism'.

Compare that to the islanders who made the choice to sacrifice a few for the survival of the group. AFAIK there was no 'ism' involved, just a practical calculation of the greatest good for the greatest number.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 12:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
There are too many studies indicating the hard-wired nature of cooperation to dispute the overall idea. It would take a MAJOR revolution in current interpretation of fMRIs and brain neuro-chemistry, and a complete revamping of brain anatomy and function to refute all the different lines of evidence pointing that way.

Anyway, back to the idea of islanders. One group that never made it were the Greenlanders. They were so stuck on the idea of dairy cattle as a symbol of prosperity and so resistant to adopting alternate subsistence (fishing) that as the weather cooled they became a less and less robust society until they finally petered out. If they had an 'ism' it would have been cultural'ism'.

Compare that to the islanders who made the choice to sacrifice a few for the survival of the group. AFAIK there was no 'ism' involved, just a practical calculation of the greatest good for the greatest number.

***************************************************************

I agree that the human brain is hard-wired for many social responses. Not sure if this study adds much to the adds much to that body of evidence. Dogs run in a pack but don't show evidence of social Darwinism so obvious in humans.

Is there evidence that the Greenlanders "petered out" or did they just move on to greener pastures.

"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 1:46 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
No, the mortgage company, for while joe has to take the consequences if his pizza business fails, the mortgage company can go running to big daddy government to steal more of joes money to ensure their bottom line if their mortgage business tanks.

Capitalism my ass.

Okay. So you're not upset with pure capitalism, where the capitalist has to actually risk his capital in the hope of profit, but with capitalism propped up by the state - say the major companies in Japan which receive preferential loans through state-controlled banks?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 4:37 PM

Golly Gee, Geeze, what took ya so long to figure that out ?

I am an AN-ARCH-IST, of course I believe in doing what you can do to profit yourself without levelling harm at others or stepping on their lives and rights.

I also believe that when a corporation does the latter, they should damn well expect swift violence in return if they refuse to make it right.

It's perfectly fine when both sides get to write the contract, to contract biz between folk, it's when one party, backed by government, gets to write the contract and force it on the other party (see also: EULA, Shrink Wrap Agreement) AND change the terms thereof at will, when the other party is not allowed to even question or dispute the changes.

That violates Hoyles law, and makes the process a mockery - likewise my issue with labor rights is that labor in and of itself has a value in creating a good or refining a raw material into a good and should be valued as a commodity rather than peon slave labor for the corporate elite.

In a REAL free market, you can't outlaw your competitors and their products with the help of big daddy gov, and nor do you get your money back when you make jackass stupid decisions like the mortgage company, or laugh in the customers face while producing a product they don't want, with no effort towards producing one they do, like Ford or GM and their 8-11mpg penis extensions.

I don't have an issue with a true free market based on real (1) currency so long as usury is not involved (2) and people realise that violence occasionally WILL ensue, and better to let it do so and be settled, than try to put a lid on that via artificial means that lead to the end of a free market in the first place.

(1) - No Fiat Money, disaster waiting to happen.
(2) - NO Usury, it poisons the entire process top to bottom.

And yeah, cause of that and my stance on weapon ownership, I get flamed as a "Right Wing Hardcase" just as often as I do "Flaming Liberal!" or "Leftist Socialista!".

Hilarious, innit ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 4:43 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
(1) - No Fiat Money, disaster waiting to happen.

You know, the gold standard used to be the norm, but it doesn't work. It's not a conspiracy to enslave people with 'worthless' money, the Gold standard had problems with run away inflation, and was replaced with a supirior system, that I might add has out performed the Gold Standard over the course of it's use.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 8:27 PM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
or laugh in the customers face while producing a product they don't want, with no effort towards producing one they do, like Ford or GM and their 8-11mpg penis extensions.

From what I've seen plenty of people still want those.

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 8:41 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hi Kirkules

I would say most people are hardwired with the capacity for empathy. But some people are born without and some have it trained out of them.

People are like fuzzy logic systems that can be 'trained'. You give them enough different examples of the same category and eventually they work out the pattern of characteristics. But with language people are also self-training and are human-taught to parse out reality according human rules. You tell people often enough, loudly enough, and with enough consequences that the world is tough, they have to be tough, if you want to get ahead you have to beat out the competition and eventually --- they'll see the world that way. And react to that world which they see.

What we say about ourselves is largely a self-fulfilling prophecy. Though as I said, there are also those born without empathy who do aggressively manipulate the vast majority of people with empathy.

---------------------

At one point Greenland was in semi-regular trade with Norway - I think (I forget exactly which country - wherever Eric the Red came from). They had an arch-Bishop stationed there and many of the amenities of home. As their situation became more dire they had less and less to trade, at some point the last ship scheduled to visit was recorded, but it never came back. So there was no way off the island. Greenland was 'rediscovered' centuries later with no inhabitants. Indicators are that at some point there were very few people living on the island with cattle in their home rather than in barns and human bones showing poor diet and poor health.

The story as best can be reconstructed is in 'Collapse' by Jared Diamond.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, November 23, 2007 2:51 AM

Sure they do Fred, some folk anyhows - but a lotta folks want a high-mileage alt-fuel compact, and the Big Three have been anything but forthcoming on that front.

Even if it has limited range and top speed, there's a large market for an "in-town car" around here.

-F

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Friday, November 23, 2007 2:55 AM

LEADB

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
(1) - No Fiat Money, disaster waiting to happen.
You know, the gold standard used to be the norm, but it doesn't work. It's not a conspiracy to enslave people with 'worthless' money, the Gold standard had problems with run away inflation, and was replaced with a supirior system, that I might add has out performed the Gold Standard over the course of it's use.

Both methods have possible exposures to abuse and their defined nature. I believe the US is about to experience the problems with the abuse of a non-hard currency. When it does, I will squarely put it at the foot of the Bush administration. I believe a properly administered Fiat Money can work fine indefinitely. Sadly, the Bush Admin has made some 'poor choices', and we are about to experience the consequences. I personally am hoping the wheels don't come flying off, but we'll see. I'll content myself with 10-20% inflation for the next few years, when accounting for -all- financial sectors, not just the few the US government has decided to feature in the CPI. Of course, most folks are asleep to the problem, and will only blame the administration which follows Bush. Here's to 'soft landings'!

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Friday, November 23, 2007 4:50 AM

Then you might find these two links of interest.

Billions for the Bankers, Debts for the People.
http://www.bigeye.com/bankers.htm
Written by Pastor Sheldon Emry, I believe.

And this one, the tale of the eleventh round, brings us full circle to the original topic, how our society operates directly counter to those instincts by making a lack of empathy a survival trait.
http://www.bullnotbull.com/blog/?p=48

When compassion, altruism and empathy are mocked, scorned, ridiculed, and a weakness to be preyed upon in a society - is it any wonder that they disappear from it ?

And having read those links, and comprehended the primary point of both - one can then see how mortally offensive I find it for these bankers to cry havoc and run to big daddy Gov to strip even MORE of our money to keep their bottom line intact.

The harder you squeeze a handful of sand, the less you wind up holding.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, November 23, 2007 5:00 AM

CAUSAL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
capitalism!

Well, no disrespect to the brain scientists or to anyone in the discussion, but I do want to point out that capitalism requires a great deal of cooperation. There is competition, of course, no denying; but if capitalism were purely competitive it would be impossible. Now, before you tear out my throat, let me just say that the capitalism we're experiencing now has taken the competitive aspect of business too far, and lost out on the cooperative aspect; but let's not say that competition as such is bad, and that therefore capitalism as such is bad.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
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- Vote JonnyQuest/Causal, for Benevolent Co-Dictator of Earth; together, toward a brighter tomorrow!

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Friday, November 23, 2007 5:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Then you might find these two links of interest.

And this one, the tale of the eleventh round, brings us full circle to the original topic, how our society operates directly counter to those instincts by making a lack of empathy a survival trait.
http://www.bullnotbull.com/blog/?p=48

Of course this story assumes no growth in the money supply to allow for increased productivity due to the new technology(leather money). At the end of the year the leather dollar is no longer worth 1 chicken, its worth 1+ chickens. Society as whole is richer. The one family loses out not because of the new technology, but because of the static money supply.

"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"

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Friday, November 23, 2007 6:32 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
(1) - No Fiat Money, disaster waiting to happen.

Having driven a Fiat, I tend to agree.

While I wouldn't mind a hard currency, I'm not sure where you could get enough commodities to back it up. I don't thing there's enough precious metals or gems by a long shot, and most other stuff, such as industrial metals, need to be used, not stockpiled. Not really up on this so if there are methods of backing hard currency in the amounts needed for commerce in a nation of 300 million, please let me know.

Quote:
(2) - NO Usury, it poisons the entire process top to bottom.

Lending and expecting excessive interest, or expecting interest at all? If none at all, is there anything which would replace the need people have to sometimes spend more on a big ticket item than they have in the mattress?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, November 23, 2007 8:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Well, no disrespect to the brain scientists or to anyone in the discussion, but I do want to point out that capitalism requires a great deal of cooperation. There is competition, of course, no denying; but if capitalism were purely competitive it would be impossible. Now, before you tear out my throat, let me just say that the capitalism we're experiencing now has taken the competitive aspect of business too far, and lost out on the cooperative aspect; but let's not say that competition as such is bad, and that therefore capitalism as such is bad.

ANY society takes cooperation. Hell, even wars take a great deal of cooperation, but that's not to say that we should have wars just to promote cooperation! Capitalism is bad because of it's distorting effects on the flow of money. It's intrinsic to the nature of capitalism. Our gladiatorial society is just a follow-on to the concept of private ownership to the means of production.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, November 23, 2007 11:02 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

While I wouldn't mind a hard currency, I'm not sure where you could get enough commodities to back it up. I don't thing there's enough precious metals or gems by a long shot, and most other stuff, such as industrial metals, need to be used, not stockpiled. Not really up on this so if there are methods of backing hard currency in the amounts needed for commerce in a nation of 300 million, please let me know.

The question is how much would you actually need? I mean we would be using it as currency rather than as money by which I mean that as a unit of exchange you would only need enough of it to cover transactions and not the complete value of the economy.

That said, in reality there are no "hard" currencies just things we've agreed have a physical value. You could imagine a situation where people stop accepting gold because it has no value at that time. Back in the 1970's there was a kids TV show about a guy who starts to notice that society is breaking down and makes efforts to protect his family --- kind of a inner city survivalist --- one of the things he did was buy in large amounts of hard liquor and cigarettes not because he drank or smoked but to use as trade goods. Gold only has a value because we chose to give it one, in that respect it is only a little better than paper money.

Quote:

Quote:
(2) - NO Usury, it poisons the entire process top to bottom.

Lending and expecting excessive interest, or expecting interest at all? If none at all, is there anything which would replace the need people have to sometimes spend more on a big ticket item than they have in the mattress?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Christianity used to outlaw Usury, Islam still does. Various states had Usury laws on the books until the late '70's. What we could do to replace current lending is what some banks are now offering as "Islamic Mortgages" where in the bank buys the house at the sellers price and in effect sells to to the buyer in installments as a fixed profit.

The problem isn't lending it's predatory lending. When an entire class of final year Harvard law students can't decipher the terms and conditions for the average credit card agreement what chance does anyone else have?

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Saturday, November 24, 2007 4:59 PM