At precisely what point should we be alarmed at human rights violations? by chrisisall

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Three, if an innocent person is abused in any fashion that is a tragedy. However it is not the end of the world.

Better a 1,000 innocient men be imprisoned for life than one "bad guy" go free.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, November 26, 2007 5:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I note for the record that Jack Bauer who tortures, murders, and drives without a seat belt...is an EXTREMELY popular character suggesting that the majority of people approve of such actions under the right circumstances (like right before a commercial break).

The right circumstances, in this instance, being propoganda under the guise of an mega-action thrill-ride that is written, performed, and directed so well, that it has no problem keeping millions of American's eyes glued to the tube for an hour every week.

Way to distinguish reality from fantasy. I've seen Vanilla Ice music videos that keep it more "real" than 24. Not suggesting that it's not entertaining though.

Anybody old enough to have stopped believing in the Tooth Fairy should be old enough to know that real life is nothing like 24, and whether it be only for advertizing revenue, or much more nefarious purposes such as propoganda and subversive indoctrination, anybody who allows a TV show to control the way they think about the world or the people living it are being played like violins.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, November 26, 2007 5:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
6SJ,

Don't smoke myself, not counting my twice yearly cigar. But I feel for you and all my friends at the neighborhood bar that have to keep walking outside to have a smoke.

You're a good man Vet....

I have a feeling that a lot more people look at it the way you and my brother do than the media would ever admit to. Watch too much of that idiot box and you'll start believing that everyone in the world wants to give up all of their rights and let the government micromanage their entire lives so they can feel safe and warm.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, November 26, 2007 5:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
But when other governments worldwide starve, murder, rape, beat, imprison, relocate, and otherwise deprive large portions of their populations of human rights, not so much, eh?
Geezer, I wonder: Are you being a dick on purpose or can't you help yourself? You toss off this stuff as if it's somehow meaningful, but all you're doing- as usual- is putting words in someone else's mouth.

Just trying, once again, to make a point, and subtlety hasn't worked too well. Human rights violations occur all over the place, but unless the US can be blamed somehow, they never get discussed here. Why is that, do you think?

Never a mention of the political repression or prisoners held by Castro's regime in Cuba, for example, but a new Gitmo/waterboarding reference every time you turn around.

People blown up in a pet market in Iraq by Shi'a militias? Not a peep. But show a fragment of a taser video and it's the end of the world.

Couldn't even get up a good sweat over the political repression in Myanmar.

Putin is about to railroad the elections in Russia without comment, but we'll hear over and over how Bush 'cheated' in 2000 and 2004.

Get the point? If you really want to complain about human rights abuses, complain about all of them. Don't pick and choose depending on your prejudices. Evaluate them all fairly based on their degree of seriousness.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Quite honestly Geezer, I couldn't give a shit less about what happens in other countries. If we weren't so busy meddling everywhere else in the world, we could have locked down our borders and made immigration very hard legally and damn near impossible otherwise. (Eliminating any threat of someone with "evil" intentions from outside coming in, thus bringing us back to a "cold war" state at the absolute worst, should Putin's ascendance of power or China's strenghtening economy become a imminent threat).

But where do you get off talking to me about shit in Russia when we've got the enemy living here stateside? Just how many of those illegals who came up from Mexico do you suppose might be terrorists just waiting for the go signal to start firebombing churches, schools and malls?

(And before you say anything silly, I don't mean Mexican terrorists..... because the only nationality that comes up by the millions every year from the south are Mexican's right?)

And no, the Real ID is not the answer.

Let's fix our own shit and then we'll worry about the rest of the world. I don't see how the hell we get off telling the world how to live their lives and run their countries when we are the epitome of decadence and self-indulgant behavior and hypocracy in the world.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, November 26, 2007 7:23 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Besides, I know firsthand how the VC fought. Torture and terror were their stock in trade. Remember the My Lia massacre and the outrage at that? the VC did that, and worse, on a daily basis. I spent a year there receiving front-line reports, straight from the field, like, "VC entered village of X. Killed village chief and family. Killed school teacher and family. Kidnapped 4 teenage boys. Stole all rice." every day. Don't talk to me about the VC.

And I know too. I'm not a dumbass who talks about the "heroic" VC. So what? WE were there. Doing very much the same. And I suspect that if we hadn't been there neither would the Russians or Chinese. (Like al Qaida in Iraq.)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, November 26, 2007 11:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Freedom of speech - Try denying the Holacaust in Germany or several other European countries.
Freedom of religion - Try wearing your Sikh turban to a French school.
Freedom of the press - Try to print a leaked document in England, and get charged under the Official Secrets Act.
Ask the folk in the Muslim ghettoes in France about police violence and racism.
What about the neo-fascist movements in Germany and Italy?

Weren't you just telling me about degrees earlier? Does any of this really compare to 'extraordinary rendition'? There’s neo-fascist movements in America as well, and the official secrets act has been tested in court, and it doesn't hold up for cases of whistle blowing. Frankly if a tabloid was to get hold of top secret information that put service people at risk, and printed it, I have no problem with them and whoever leaked it being nailed to the wall.

A situation, I note that is also provided for under US law. I also note, that on the whole the British press can be found to attack the British government far more thoroughly than I tend to see from most other countries, despite the apparent complete lack of 'freedom of the press' over here.

You did rather sidestep the point though. If you're happy with the US or other western nations "not being as bad as Zimbabwe" then more power to you. Personally I don't use "better than a tin pot dictatorship" as my yard stick.

Someone can be realistic and still decry Human Rights abuses where ever they come from. Before I mention the words "the leader of the free world shouldn't be locking people up and throwing away the key", I have to condemn every tin pot dictator? Are Americas Gulags ok, because they only intern a few hundred people, while China’s intern thousands?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:47 AM

JUDITH

Don't look now, you young folk, but this country is in worse shape than during the McCarthy commie witch hunts.

You already live in a fascist state - the fascists just haven't moved to total enforcement, yet.

Keep your weapons and clothes where you can find them in the dark!

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 3:46 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
WE were there. Doing very much the same.

Once again, Bull.

I was there. I received the reports every day, and then talked to the guys who sent them.

Here's what "village chief and family murdered" really meant.

If they were lucky, the VC did just murder them quickly. If the VC commander was more of an ideologue or more creative, they'd tie the chief to a post and disembowel him, making sure he stayed alive. Then they'd torture and kill his sons in front of him, then rape, torture and kill his wife and daughters. A couple of the commanders with a flair for the dramatic might then behead the chief's family and mount their heads on stakes where the chief couldn't avoid seeing them. The VC would then threaten to kill any villager who tried to help, or even move, the chief, steal all the food, kidnap all the young men, and leave.

No. We weren't 'doing very much the same'.

Edited to add:
"And I suspect that if we hadn't been there neither would the Russians or Chinese. (Like al Qaida in Iraq.)"

The Soviet Union and Chinese were providing direct military aid to the Viet Minh starting in the early 1950's. Try checking your facts for a change.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 3:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Weren't you just telling me about degrees earlier? Does any of this really compare to 'extraordinary rendition'? There’s neo-fascist movements in America as well, and the official secrets act has been tested in court, and it doesn't hold up for cases of whistle blowing. Frankly if a tabloid was to get hold of top secret information that put service people at risk, and printed it, I have no problem with them and whoever leaked it being nailed to the wall.

A situation, I note that is also provided for under US law. I also note, that on the whole the British press can be found to attack the British government far more thoroughly than I tend to see from most other countries, despite the apparent complete lack of 'freedom of the press' over here.

You did rather sidestep the point though. If you're happy with the US or other western nations "not being as bad as Zimbabwe" then more power to you. Personally I don't use "better than a tin pot dictatorship" as my yard stick.

Someone can be realistic and still decry Human Rights abuses where ever they come from. Before I mention the words "the leader of the free world shouldn't be locking people up and throwing away the key", I have to condemn every tin pot dictator? Are Americas Gulags ok, because they only intern a few hundred people, while China’s intern thousands?

WTF?

Me an Cit finally found an issue that we agree on probably about 80% at least if we were to sit down and have a long talk about it.

I'ma have a beer and celebrate.

One point I'd like to make though..... I think our press does one hell of a job bashing our Government, but only one side of it. The Rethuglican side. Today they very rarely ever pick on the "ideals" or the spoken word of Demonocracy.

As you're probably well aware by now, I fear one side just as much as I do the other. Why do you suppose that even a lot of Democrats are supporting Ron Paul?

I believe that it is because most "moderates" on either side are likely Libertarians, but they don't even know it because we're a Government of black and white... Neo Conservative or Commie Liberal.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 4:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I was there. I received the reports every day, and then talked to the guys who sent them.

Here's what "village chief and family murdered" really meant.

If they were lucky, the VC did just murder them quickly. If the VC commander was more of an ideologue or more creative, they'd tie the chief to a post and disembowel him, making sure he stayed alive. Then they'd torture and kill his sons in front of him, then rape, torture and kill his wife and daughters. A couple of the commanders with a flair for the dramatic might then behead the chief's family and mount their heads on stakes where the chief couldn't avoid seeing them. The VC would then threaten to kill any villager who tried to help, or even move, the chief, steal all the food, kidnap all the young men, and leave.

No. We weren't 'doing very much the same'.

I wasn't there, and that makes me highly suspect of any "facts" that somebody else wasn't there tells me they read in a book or saw on TV.

I do, however, have a great deal more faith in an individual who was there and can vouch that they did see this going on.

Geezer, you fall somewhere in between there, but much closer to actually having seen the events yourself than having been a 13 year old in high school today giving me your interpretation of a topic rewritten 5 times in the history books over the decades.

That's not to say that I believe you, but let's just say that if we were playing Hold 'Em right now and i thought that maybe you and Signy were bluffing me right now when everyone else folded around to me, I'd be a lot more worried about what you were holding in your hand than what Signy had in his with my pair of 8's.

Sorry Signy. Know we agree on most stuff, especially on this topic, but I am trying to filter out a lot of stuff I hear and I read and not automatically flock to information from any source that will validate my opinions. I myself cannot say that what we have done to "terrorists" is as bad as what the VC did.

I truly don't believe that we do anything as torturous to prisoners (at least physically and mortally) as Geezer said the VC did above. But having some experience in BD/SM before, I can say that mental torture and manipulation can be a hell of a ride, and most likely, a bitch of a downer if the people giving you the torture are looking for a lot more than simply your satisfaction and your money.

I don't really know who I'm arguing over this point right now, if anybody..... just more mindless ramblings from one who is trying to come to terms that the more he knows, the less he really knows.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 4:26 AM

Grow up ?

It's not me who has a percieved need to cling to some Government as an authority surrogate to make their decisions for them.

So what options should I be lookin at then ?

Boil it down, ya only got three, Fight, Flight and Bend over for The Man.

Given the near futility of the first one, cause first ya gotta fight all the infants who think you wanna murder their daddy... and the repulsiveness of the third, that leaves only one viable option - and go on, find a spot on this planet not claimed by some Government.

I have wanted off this rock since 1977, the very moment I began to realize what a horrific thing our society really is under all the whitewash, and having watched what it has become in the time between then and now, I cannot say I want it any less now.

The same thing that drives Mal is what drives me, get your Gov out of my life, my business, my wallet and my fridge - leave me be, or let me go.

I think, having watched the show, at least, you'd understand that.

As for the VC, Jack - go do some homework on Operation Phoenix.

And yes, it was under Bill Colby, and certainly not the least he had to answer for, but good luck questioning his ass now, unless one plans to hold a seance, cause he... "had an accident".

Bad shit goes on in a war, everyone does it, everyone denies it, while exaggerating what the "other guy" did... part of why it's a bad idea to start one - I'm sure the VC told horror stories about what our Phoenix guys did too, not just ours, but the South Viet stringers who were settling other issues outside the scope of the work.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 4:31 AM

I'm thinking that except for the note you left for me at the bottom of your post, this wasn't directed at me Frem, but I can't tell because I don't know who you were addressing.

Had I said something that ruffled your feathers?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 4:46 AM

Nah, I was responding to Geezers "Grow the fuck up" comment, the only thing he could, or would, say to the opinion I handed him.

Guess I struck a nerve with him, cause usually we get along well enough here.

-F

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 4:52 AM

LOL....

What a strange topic, huh?

I was just commenting on how much Cit and I think alike here and that almost never happens. As long as Religion and Science aren't part of that equation, I reckon that me and Cit probably agree on a whole ton of stuff.

And of course I'd have to do some reading on the VC myself. All I know 'em from is some videogame I played when I was a kid. Guess that's why I'm showing Geeze a bit of respect here.....

Then again, I don't even know if Geeze is even a dude, let alone someone who served back in the day because of the beauty of Anonymity on the un-tainted Net.....

But I'd rather leave the choice up to me as who to believe instead of having a Government controlled internet one day in the not so distant future where not only can I know if you're actually male, but I'll know your age, religion, sexuality, medical records, criminal history, credit history, blood type, favorite pizza topping, etc....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 4:54 AM

Just wanted to add....

Does anybody else have abnormally long loading times when you're trying to post here? It's only on this particular site for me, and only when I post in the RWED.

I swear... somebody is reading my posts.

(end tinfoil-hat display)

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:14 AM

JUDITH

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
WE were there. Doing very much the same.

Once again, Bull.

No. We weren't 'doing very much the same'.

Edited to add:
"And I suspect that if we hadn't been there neither would the Russians or Chinese. (Like al Qaida in Iraq.)"

The Soviet Union and Chinese were providing direct military aid to the Viet Minh starting in the early 1950's. Try checking your facts for a change.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

I was there too, treating both the villagers and the interrogated (by 'friendlies') We were doing much the same, only on a smaller scale. Being short handed, we worked the morgue, too. ....Some people just wouldn't talk....and we or our surrogates did that

BTW, if you check your facts, you'll see that 'uncle Ho' came to reps of the US and asked our help to get the French out. When we said 'no' he asked the Chinese who said 'yes.' and so it began....

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:17 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Nah, I was responding to Geezers "Grow the fuck up" comment, the only thing he could, or would, say to the opinion I handed him.

Guess I struck a nerve with him, cause usually we get along well enough here.

-F

You didn’t hand Geezer your “opinion.” You handed him a load of bullshit. And it wasn’t even good bullshit, because it wasn’t even consistent with your previous loads of craps. How do you plan on building your superdooder space station without government? I guess you think that in your utopian anarchy everyone will happily and willingly do whatever you want them too.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
As long as Religion and Science aren't part of that equation, I reckon that me and Cit probably agree on a whole ton of stuff.

Very possibly.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Does anybody else have abnormally long loading times when you're trying to post here? It's only on this particular site for me, and only when I post in the RWED.

Don’t you use FireFox? I usually use Opera, but I’ve noticed this site is particularly optimised for IE, and it makes the render times under standards browsers like FF and Opera really long.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:39 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Don’t you use FireFox? I usually use Opera, but I’ve noticed this site is particularly optimised for IE, and it makes the render times under standards browsers like FF and Opera really long.

I don’t know what this site is optimized for, but it's loading times can be crap in internet explorer too. This site must be on a network that sees a lot of activity with higher priority then us.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Don’t you use FireFox? I usually use Opera, but I’ve noticed this site is particularly optimised for IE, and it makes the render times under standards browsers like FF and Opera really long.

Yeah.... I use Firefox. And I've always loved it. Recently though if you look in your processes tab in task manager the cpu utilization is pretty damn high sometimes and Firefox isn't even doing anything. I love the new feature where if Firefox or Windows craps out on you it will reload every single window and tab you had open before the crash, but I have to say (even after I reformatted and reinstalled Windows 4 days ago finally because I couldn't properly edit videos anymore) that Firefox still crashes a ton more for me now than it ever used to. Until a month or two ago with new updates, I rarely if ever had a problem with Firefox.

Opera is cool too and I love their ability to continue a download if your session ended prematurely.

Just recently had a problem posting on here no matter where I do it from. I have no choice but IE at work.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t know what this site is optimized for, but it's loading times can be crap in internet explorer too. This site must be on a network that sees a lot of activity with higher priority then us.

That's also true. The standards browsers are particularly hard hit though, Opera times out my machine when running this site, but if I have Opera and IE side by side with fff in IE, not a problem.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:40 AM

"You didn’t hand Geezer your “opinion.” You handed him a load of bullshit. And it wasn’t even good bullshit, because it wasn’t even consistent with your previous loads of craps. How do you plan on building your superdooder space station without government? I guess you think that in your utopian anarchy everyone will happily and willingly do whatever you want them too."

Wow, looks like I *did* strike a nerve, you puling facist whiner.

Chris asked for opinions, and I gave him one, which seemed to strike a nerve with you, prolly cause it hit a little close to home, so you insulted the very idea we could evolve emotionally and mentally past the need, or percieved need, of some outside authority controlling our behavior - which, might I remind you is the entire concept behind taoism, diesm, libertarianism, and anarchism, just for starters.

Then, without one whit of supporting evidence or thought beyond the insult, proceeded to call it "impossible" because it offended YOUR concept of reality, which, lemme be completely fucking blunt - involves clinging to big daddy Governments apron strings and doing all that it tells you cause you're terrified of the great boogeyman of "terrorism" hiding under every rock and behind every corner of america...

Which, in my opinion, is outright insane, so don't expect me to offer any respect for it since you've chosen to offer none for other outlooks yourself, you close-minded barbaric fucking primate gibbering in the dark like an animal.

So I pointed out the very blunt reality of how it could be *begun*, and why it hasn't.

A simple step by step process to begin the empirical research necessary to do it.
Then pointed out the very simple fact that if you put people outside their range and ability to enforce the law or collect taxes, Governments do not like it one bit.

To which your primary and initially only response, was a knee-jerk insult consisting of "Oh, grow the fuck up." followed by a quick edit to add another insult and references to works of fiction - but no facts, or even any evidence whatever beyond your nastiness.

And I let it slide, instead explaining to you WHY that concept was important to me, so you might understand where that position generates from and thus perhaps understand it.

And then, you respond again with insult, cite some inconsistency that I'd lay odds no one else here sees in the reasoning and finally offer your best backed into a corner, sputtering denial by once again clinging to the apron strings of big daddy Government, this from Mister "Free Market" (only meaning Gov-protected monopoly in truth).

Dude, if you found a viable way to get a rock heavy with Gold, Platinum or Uranium down here in the gravity well for processing, you could name your fucking price, and aren't you always the one talking about Capitalism being a calculated gamble via investing a chunk of money into something that's likely to bring in more ?

But sure as shit it didn't even occur to you when someone accidently zapped you in a real sensitive spot, did it now ?

It seems your mask is slipping Geeze, and your true colors are shining through a little bit, might wanna go take a powder and adjust it before your fingers get the better of you and fully reveal what a fearful, nasty little creature you are - guess my One Ring analogy isn't so far from the mark after all is it, cause yer sounding an awful lot like ole Smeagol to me, wants it bad, hasn't got it, so afraid of what he loves and hates.

You wanna talk bullshit, how bout you stifle yours and let people who can act, think and reason like adults discuss a subject you obviously just can't handle (nice try with the topic redirection, but not slick enough) - or you could even man up and actually participate for once instead of sandbagging it like you do every topic which doesn't fit into your neat little worldview of how things should be.

Ever occur to you that it's people like YOU I wanna be far, far away from ?

That it's people like you who in my opinion are diggin my grave right next to theirs, ignorantly cheerleading the way for it to actually happen while dismissing the folk attempting to point this out to them ?

Your dumb ass prolly thought we'd be makin a mint in Iraq while the locals threw flowers too, how'd that work out for ya, might I ask ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 7:03 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Boil it down, ya only got three, Fight, Flight and Bend over for The Man.

Given the near futility of the first one, cause first ya gotta fight all the infants who think you wanna murder their daddy... and the repulsiveness of the third, that leaves only one viable option - and go on, find a spot on this planet not claimed by some Government.

And that spot would be?

Sorry, Fremd, but government is like gravity, it's gonna be everywhere, and you can either use it or fight it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 7:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
clinging to big daddy Governments apron strings and doing all that it tells you cause you're terrified of the great boogeyman of "terrorism" hiding under every rock and behind every corner of america...

Unfortunately, I think you hit the nail with this one, Frem.
And 9-11 happened right under 'big daddy's' nose.
Yet some see no need for a major overhaul of government or personal perception.
Amazing.

Blah blah woof woof Chrisisall

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 7:35 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

In helicopter parlance it's called 'ground effects' (that cushion of air that builds up between you and the ground that makes it hard to. land. the. damn. thing.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
And somebody explain to me how a single, highly trained agent can drive anywhere in LA in five minutes or less but his highly trained team of back up agents is always ten minutes away by helicopter.

Updrafts.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 7:35 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Geezer, read up on Operation Phoenix and its predecessor Contre Coup. www.counterpunch.org/valentine.html When assassination and torture didn't work, we carpet-bombed, napalmed, and defoliated (and poisoned) en masse. Yeah, we were real good folks.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:22 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

BTW when it comes to the supposed 'popularity' of '24' - shows that feature highly emotionally charged situations, that are full of action, and quickly paced (with fast dialogue, physical action and scene-cutting) tend to mesmerize people. It doesn't mean people 'approve', any more than tasering being on YouTube means that people find tasering 'amusing'. There is such a thing as being fascinated watching a train wreck - or the equivalent.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:27 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

The one thing that doesn't get a whole lot of attention is the idea of 'proportionate'.

So we have certain folks here (you know who you are) who say - didn't sign the ticket ? TASE 'EM! Too loud at a meeting ? TASE HIM ! Not as bad a Zimbabwe ? Well that makes it ALL RIGHT ! Torture bad - bombing GOOD ! J'accuse of being a terrorist ? INDEFINITE DETENTION !

Really.

What are you thinking ?

***************************************************************
I'm really curious.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
There is such a thing as being fascinated watching a train wreck - or the equivalent.

You mean that if you watch a train wreck, you're not supporting all the lives that are lost in it?

Sarcasm-ingrained Chrisisall

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:40 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Then, without one whit of supporting evidence or thought beyond the insult, proceeded to call it "impossible" because it offended YOUR concept of reality, which, lemme be completely fucking blunt - involves clinging to big daddy Governments apron strings and doing all that it tells you cause you're terrified of the great boogeyman of "terrorism" hiding under every rock and behind every corner of america...

If you're talking about viable space travel in time to get you, Fremd, off the planet to a place where you could live on your own resources, which is what you seemed to be describing - I'd stick with impossible.
It doesn't have anything to do with 'big daddy government' or any of your other boogeymen, but just the fact that the technology isn't going to mature quickly enough for that to happen.

We're pretty much at the skin coracle level of spacecraft now, as compared to the caravels we'd need to make it to anywhere anywhere liveable with enough stuff to support us full-time when we got there. After getting there, you still gotta figure out how to live in orbit, or on a planet, moon, or asteroid, without any continuing support from home, so you need an economical and reliable way to provide atmosphere, energy, water, food, and raw materials. This isn't in the cards on a commercial scale for quite a while.

Reasonably self-sufficent colonies in space in your lifetime just isn't doable, because there's so many levels of development that need to occur. Getting far enough away that you won't be involved with earthbound governments is yet another order of magnitude harder, requiring a private ship which could go extra-solar and provide ALL necessities to establish a colony. And if you bring enough folks to avoid the unfavorable results of too small a gene pool, you're gonna end up with some type of government there anyway.

I don't doubt that we will move into space some day, and maybe out of the Solar System, but it's gonna be a while. You and I won't be around to see it.

Until that time, we and our descendents will have to deal with government. Not necessarily 'clinging to apron strings' or 'trembling in fear', but nudging it in the direction we want it to go. Since there's other folks nudging too, we won't get exactly what we want, sometimes not even close.

If you don't think the government will change, there's nowhere for you to run away from them, and you won't bend over, you better start thinking about finding another option.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:58 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
The one thing that doesn't get a whole lot of attention is the idea of 'proportionate'.

So we have certain folks here (you know who you are) who say - didn't sign the ticket ? TASE 'EM!

So who said that? Most of us here have noted that some use of force, be it tasers or whatever, is inappropriate.

'Proportionate' would start with considering all people, or at least all innocent people, as being equal in worth. So proprtionately, which causes more harm to the innocents; inappropriately tasing them or starving them to death? Both things are bad, but which is worse?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 9:05 AM

Welcome to today's installment of "Obfuscating for Dollars"!

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 9:18 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I liken it to watching a dog chase his tail.

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It's been a long time since I've seen someone go in so many circles.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:45 AM

I am aware it's unlikely in our lifetimes, but then so was the internet, and here we are talking on it, yes ?

I want at least the process in motion, instead of restricting ourselves to antiquated unsafe pieces of shit good only for installing spy and comm satellites in orbit and of no other use outside the gravity well.

And no, not a station, a SHIP, curse it, Solar Sail and Ion engines especially have shown great promise and we're at a point where an in-space test bed is needed to prove or disprove certain things before further development, so why the hell not apply it for a little jaunt in near-earth space so we can call it one way or the other.

First things first, we need to learn how to DO this stuff, to operate in deep space, physical and psychological effects, vehicle balance and propulsion, safety limits and procedures..

To be somewhat sarcastic about it, basically...
"Drivers Ed for Deep Space".

And I believe in it so strongly that I would voluntarily put my ass on the line, first in line, even knowing how damn risky it would be.

I'd totally fail the physical, I know, but fuck it, I'll sign a damn waiver of responsibility, besides, it's not like imma sue if I fall out an airlock or something... shit, I'd even quit smoking cause no air processor we could build is currently up to handling THAT anyways.

And why do I want it done so badly even knowing that I'll never see that end of it ?

Because when I look into the big blue eyes of my nieces, and within their words hear that same wrenching pain of a soul in torment that I have felt for my entire life, looking at the horror we have built and called a society... I'd really like to have something to offer them besides the fact that they were born, will live, and will die in a world in which their beliefs, their hearts, and compassion have no place, and never will.

And be damned if I wanna hand those two the future of MY failures - I will do *whatever* I must, to not condemn them to my own fate.

Deadly serious, I am about that.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:00 AM

FLETCH2

You know a guy with your level of mechanical skills could do well on some south sea islands. The locals use 2 stroke engines on canoes but dont really understand how to maintain them. A man with mechanical knowledge and a semi reasonable toolkit can live a good life. Of course you'd have to barter for your services but pigs and goats are as good a hard currency as you could wish for. Zero government involvement, of course keeping a rifle handy would be a good idea but I think you'd probably enjoy that anyway.

You dont ahve to build a spaceship to get away from the "Man."

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And I believe in it so strongly that I would voluntarily put my ass on the line, first in line, even knowing how damn risky it would be.

I'd totally fail the physical, I know, but fuck it, I'll sign a damn waiver of responsibility, besides, it's not like imma sue if I fall out an airlock or something... shit, I'd even quit smoking cause no air processor we could build is currently up to handling THAT anyways.

It's not about worrying you'll sue, it's about the fact that it costs a bloody fortune to put a Human in space. It costs $300,000,000 to put the Space Shuttle in orbit, with a crew of 7. When you're sinking that much money into a project under the supervision of 7 people, you want those 7 to be the very best possible, because if one of them isn't up to the task, you've just wasted a shit load of money.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:20 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Wow, looks like I *did* strike a nerve, you puling facist whiner.

You didn’t strike any nerve. That’s just a narcissistic device you use to justify your delusions. Just like accusing anyone who doesn’t buy your crap, hook, line, and sinker as being facist (sic). I don’t even think you realize how silly you sound half the time. If you’d just think this stuff through before shooting your mouth off, you might not come across so silly.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:26 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Meanwhile... apropos of how "good" we are Quote:
Geezer, read up on Operation Phoenix and its predecessor Contre Coup. www.counterpunch.org/valentine.html When assassination and torture didn't work, we carpet-bombed, napalmed, and defoliated (and poisoned) en masse. Yeah, we were real good folks.
Didn't want Geezer to miss this.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t even think you realize how silly you sound half the time.

Doesn't seem so silly to me- but then maybe I'm just a silly person.
And yes Finn, even you come off silly sometimes (your cold-war ad hominems come right out of Firefox- but that's okay, it's one of my faves

).

Tee hee Chrisisall

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:37 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

So, I thought I'd go through this in detail.

"Most of us here have noted that some use of force, be it tasers or whatever, is inappropriate."

But for those few 'most' of you, you only apparently object if it's the Chinese or some other (non-US) nation using that force.

Where have I even seen you, or Hero, or Finn, or Rap, or a few select others actually do anything other defend, excuse, minimize or ignore non-proportionate and mis-directed US force ? Iraq for 9/11 - check. Tasers for rudeness - check. Torture for people accused of terrorism - check. Indefinite detention, no habeus corpus - check, check. Warrantless wiretaps - check. This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure if I went back I'd find a lot more.

Here's an especially delicious concatenated circle you ran in: "or at least all innocent people". Is that innocent until proven guilty ? Innocent unless a cop has a notion to taser you ? Innocent until you're accused ?*

But here is the real piece de resistance "tasing (innocent people) or starving them to death? Both things are bad, but which is worse?" Like the cop is standing there thinking - 'hhmmm, maybe I'll just stand here and let them starve to death. Or, I could tase them here, 'cause that's my choice. Which is worse. eenie meenie ...' At that point your argument is doing a death spiral.

***************************************************************
* Geezer - you're a terrorist ! There. Now you're not innocent anymore.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:43 AM

I call em as I see em Finn, you ain't obligated to share any of my opinions, but remember that works BOTH ways, cause you seem to have trouble with that little bit, oft-times.

And Fletch, I've had that and similar offers concerning southeast asia, the carribean, even canada, specifically toronto - but if I really had to bail, I think I'd aim for new zealand by preference, or finland.. problem is no gift for learning languages, been studyin spanish for almost a decade and can still barely manage fifty words or so in it...

Besides, I love the IDEA of america, what it supposedly stands for, and if everyone just gives up and leaves, there's zero chance of ever seeing that dream become a reality - whether or not I care for what it is at this current time, this nation still has the most potential FOR that, provided this tidal wave of madness peters out or is turned aside.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Besides, I love the IDEA of america, what it supposedly stands for, and if everyone just gives up and leaves, there's zero chance of ever seeing that dream become a reality - whether or not I care for what it is at this current time, this nation still has the most potential FOR that, provided this tidal wave of madness peters out or is turned aside.

Well said Frem.

Errr...I mean, GO LIVE IN CHINA WITH YOUR COMRADES, YOU COMMIE RAT BASTID!!!

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:35 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Besides, I love the IDEA of america, what it supposedly stands for, and if everyone just gives up and leaves, there's zero chance of ever seeing that dream become a reality - whether or not I care for what it is at this current time, this nation still has the most potential FOR that, provided this tidal wave of madness peters out or is turned aside.

Ever think of doing something to reduce or turn aside the wave or madness, other than just whining about it?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:58 PM

What makes you think I don't ?

When not here or at work, I spend a good bit of time on it, although what I am mostly good at is sandbagging and exposing some pretty awful stuff to law enforcement, which as I said, does have it's uses, and I am active in local politics as well as having been up Conyers ass ever since meeting him at a rally for Howard Dean, before Dean bent over for the DNC/DLC... not to mention leaning on, and getting other folk to lean on, Dingell - Levin is a waste of time, bought and paid for by AIPAC, but Conyers is a key player especially given his position within House Judiciary, what with that resolution somehow not having been tabled and all...

I might not have money, but I do have the ability to get a lot of their constituents riled up at em very very quickly, and damned good intel on every dirty deed their competitors (and themselves) have ever done, just a matter of getting the arm applied without stickin my neck out for someone elses axe.

It's a nasty business, politics, and I don't care for it at all, but it's still better than a firefight, innit ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Ever think of doing something to reduce or turn aside the wave or madness, other than just whining about it?

Wow Geezer, you got a bug up your but last couple of days or what?
Go back and re-read your posts and tell me who's whining here.

In the words of John Connor: "We need to be a little more positive here!"

I'll be back Chrisisall

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:20 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Boil it down, ya only got three, Fight, Flight and Bend over for The Man.

.....that leaves only one viable option - and go on, find a spot on this planet not claimed by some Government.

And that spot would be?

.....

Sometime before the USSR folded there was a NOVA special where some geologists went to Siberia to look study a potential meteorite impact. While filming they stayed at a cabin with their Soviet hosts. The cabin had a pool heated by a geothermal spring, after a day in the field they kicked back in the pool and drank beer. As the sun was setting one of the Soviets said, right now this is the freest place on earth.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:46 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Meanwhile... apropos of how "good" we are Quote:
Geezer, read up on Operation Phoenix and its predecessor Contre Coup. www.counterpunch.org/valentine.html When assassination and torture didn't work, we carpet-bombed, napalmed, and defoliated (and poisoned) en masse. Yeah, we were real good folks.
Didn't want Geezer to miss this.

Well, I had to do a little checking to get more than the one-sided view on the site you posted so it took a while.

Summing up several sources, Operation Phoenix was designed to remove Viet Cong infrastructure support. People who provided supplies, food, communication, and indoctrination services for the VC fighters. Of the 80,000+ engaged by the CIA, ARVN, and US troops, about 25,000 were killed and the rest captured. Seeing as how support troops and formations are considered legitimate targets of war under most conventions, seems like a pretty valid tactic.

Carpet bombing, called ArcLight, always had to be cleared to avoid civilian casualties whenever possible. I saw that process firsthand too.

Napalm is a tactical weapon, generally used against folk who are already shooting at you.

Agent Orange was a mistake on several levels.

And an observation.

I just love how you absolutely revel in tracking down the worst things you can possibly find about America and bringing them to RWED, like a dog bringing a dead rat to the doorstep, looking for praise and affirmation from your buddies. How many hours a day do you spend roaming the odd corners of the internet for some little tidbit to share?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:50 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
Sometime before the USSR folded there was a NOVA special where some geologists went to Siberia to look study a potential meteorite impact. While filming they stayed at a cabin with their Soviet hosts. The cabin had a pool heated by a geothermal spring, after a day in the field they kicked back in the pool and drank beer. As the sun was setting one of the Soviets said, right now this is the freest place on earth.

Actually, you can be free wherever you are. Freedom is in your head, not your surroundings. Too many folk here think that their freedom depends on what some government does, thus giving up the power to choose to be free.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 3:13 PM