THIS explains it! by SignyM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Wow. Interesting. I bet it covers all sorts of 'true believers'. That's how AntiM can dimiss all evolutionary evidence, how Rap post the things he posts, and so on.

************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:29 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

It's that old devil dopamine, I'll bet. To be fact-based would mean eliminating the "high". These people are addicted to their "true beliefs".

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:30 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

But to the point of dismissing reality ... wow.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:09 AM

Could you two just get a room? Geesh. Besides all this "holier than thou" stuff wouldn't come across as being quite so phoney if the two of you were not amongst the most guilty here of ignoring stuff that disagrees with your "reality."

I posted something similar a couple of weeks back. The belief is taht it's a mechanism to avoid people wasting too much time second guessing previous decisions. My guess is that it's not so much a "reward" for sticking with the same model (ie dopamine) as a "punishment" for having to change established models. That explains the high levels of stress in modern cultures, if adapting to change has a physiological discouragement that has to be overcome each time then living with contant change would result in constant "punishment." Maybe that's what stress is?

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:11 AM

FREMDFIRMA

If this surprises you so, try trading jobs with me for a month.

It won't any more.

I get folk loonier than PN all the time, some of em "regular" customers, who don't get along well with any other driver, lol.

Once folk have invested enough time, effort and emotion in something, you will *NOT* move them on it, evidence or not - as I pointed out in a thread a long while back, even if you made the world itself so safe and cooperative there was no use or need for violence, I would never dispose of my piece because I simply can. not. do. it.

Past a certain point of calcification, it gets quite literally hard-wired at the reflex level of activity, the same place you store stuff like riding a bike or swimming, stuff even a total amnesiac doesn't forget, muscle memory if you will.
(Thanks again to Doc Perry's work for this concept)

What it is, is that if someone believes in something so fervently (double especially if at some point it saved their arse/life) for so long, that it just etches itself in like leaving a static picture up would burn it into some of the old monitors (one reason screensavers were invented, although truthfully they're useless now) and at that point it's indelible because their entire personhood, their being, their personality, is wrapped around that core framework and to remove it would destroy all they are.

Sometimes something happens to do that to someone, and their journey to rebuild it is always a struggle - look at Mal in Firefly trying to deal after having his pillar kicked out from under him.

All that bein said... I like shakin peoples pillars, it shows who they really are inside, how they respond to it.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:15 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Nah, Stress is caused by the social requirement of not choking the living shit out of someone who physically deserves it - conflict between caveman instinct and civilized reality, is all.

Not so sure I'm in agreement with civilization on that whole not choking them thing - and if you dislike a discussion here simply because of who initiated it, aren't you just handing yourself over as "Exhibit A" of *exactly* what they're talkin about, like a great bloody idiot ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:20 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Could you two just get a room? Geesh. Besides all this "holier than thou" stuff wouldn't come across as being quite so phoney if the two of you were not amongst the most guilty here of ignoring stuff that disagrees with your "reality."

Bulltwaddle. You're only annoyed because I don't accept your "Profit is spent like wages" supposition - which BTW you have NOT shown to be true. (And no, repeating the same thing over and over doesn't count. Try bringing either logical analysis or numeric facts to tbe board.)

Quote:
My guess is that it's not so much a "reward" for sticking with the same model (ie dopamine) as a "punishment" for having to change established models.

So how do "reward" circuits come into play? Oh, I guess they don't... Nothing like substituting YOUR factless opinion for a brain scan, eh?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:21 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"the most guilty here of ignoring stuff that disagrees with your "reality.""

Care to provide an example ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:22 AM

Oh I definately think there are social stresses, I'm not suggesting that this is a be all and end all. Fact is though that people are naturally conservative (small c) because if a survival strategy works for them they stick with it (naturally enough.) We know that uncertainty and change cause stress and so people tend to avoid it. Now what if that is a hard wired physiological response? What if finding a strategy that works is rewarded and then deviating from that norm is punished by some brain mechanism? If you were placed in a situation where you were forced to change that would be bad === a source of "stress."

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Bulltwaddle. .

I have repeatedly I just dont accept your "remove everything from the model" model. I called BS on it, I dont accept it and so we have an impass.

You dont know that dopamine is involved. They see activity in the brain that is linked to emotion and mechanisms for managing conflicts. My explanation is as valid as yours based on the presented data. We have two propositions, two theories, which a scientist would test by conducting a definative experiment.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:28 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
...The most guilty here of ignoring stuff that disagrees with your "reality.- Fletch

Care to provide an example?- Rue

Hmmm... bet he doesn't.

FLETCH2_ I see we xposted. YOu missed the part of the report that says... but subjects got a blast of activation in circuits involved in reward -- similar to what addicts receive when they get their fix, Westen explains Okay, maybe it's not dopamine (the infamous "drug fix" neurotransmitter involved in "reward") but there definitely IS reward involved.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:34 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Could you two just get a room? Geesh. Besides all this "holier than thou" stuff wouldn't come across as being quite so phoney if the two of you were not amongst the most guilty here of ignoring stuff that disagrees with your "reality."

That's the first thing I thought too. Another lecture from Signym on how everyone who disagrees with Sigrue is biased.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"the most guilty here of ignoring stuff that disagrees with your "reality.""

Care to provide an example ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

Show me an example where you have changed your mind on any topic we have discussed? Now show me three examples? Does it occur to you that this demonstrates exactly the issue you are crowing about? You dont come here to discuss anything, you come here to browbeat people with your personal worldview because out there your opinion counts for squat, you're a complete nobody but in here you get to shout people down from behind the cover of complete anonymity. That's why you can never let it go you cant bear the thought of being even slightly wrong.

And that's great, makes you human, means you have the same frustrations and failings we all have and that's fantastic. The problem comes when you think that makes you better than the rest of us. From my seat in the peanut gallery there is zero difference between you and say Hero or Geezer except in lawish kind of questions Hero has a slight edge.

Jack I disagree with lots but he's an honest broker, Frem at least has an original worldview even if it is a bit paranoid but you and Sig and AU and Hero -- same show just a different network.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:45 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Fletch
the most guilty here of ignoring stuff that disagrees with your "reality."

Rue
Care to provide an example ?

Fletch
Show me an example where you have changed your mind on any topic we have discussed?

Rue
So you CAN'T provide an example where I ignored reality to maintain a true belief ! I thought so.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:50 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Fletch

Still waiting for an example - you know, a fact, rather than a belief.

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I'll be checking back for it from time to time.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:55 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Show me an example where you have changed your mind on any topic we have discussed? Now show me three examples?

I've changed my mind about gun control. I used to be for it. I think it's ridiculous to think that you're going to "protect your rights" with a gun (you need lots of people willing to do the same) but OTOH I don't want a government to have a monopoly.

I've modified my stance on big government. I used to be for it, now I see how much of a "Ring of Sauron" it can be in the wrong hands.

I've changed my mind about how people feel about liberty. I used to think people would just naturally feel passionately that it was THE most outstanding and important feature of the USA. Sadly, I've come to realize that most Americans... indeed, most people... don't care as much about abstract concepts like liberty as they do about their every-day lives.

I used to think that even if individuals were foolish, "cultures" would always evolve. Now I see that even entire cultures can engage in denial and irrationality, and walk off a cliff into oblivion.

I used to think that rational discussion would be convincing. My experience on this board has led me to realize that some people are totally emotion-driven. I see people reacting in gibbering fear all the time.

What about YOU? Have YOU changed your mind on anything?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Fletch
the most guilty here of ignoring stuff that disagrees with your "reality."

Rue
Care to provide an example ?

Fletch
Show me an example where you have changed your mind on any topic we have discussed?

Rue
So you CAN'T provide an example where I ignored reality to maintain a true belief ! I thought so.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

Soi what you are saying is that you cant find a single example where you changed your mind as the result of a discussion here? That makes it less of a discussion and more a diatribe from your side right? I admit I look at things differently as a result of what I read here. I'm inclined to imagine Frems take on a news item or Finns or even Siggy's. I am even informed occasionally by PN. At the very least I have to accept that there are people with valid points of view I don't agree with. You can't accept that any view but your own has any merit because to do so would be an attack on your perception of worth. You are not a person with opinions you are opinions with control of a person.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 11:59 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So Fletch2- since you didnt' answer Rue's question (come up with an example) perhaps you will answer mine: Have you changed your mind on anything? Anything at all?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:01 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Fletch

Here you have a 'belief' that I don't base my views on available facts.

In fact I rather pride myself on posting either links or searchable quotes from credible sources to back up what I say, or quoting people here when they claim 'that's not what I said', or using logic to deconstruct an argument.

You will not actually be able to find me posting things which are at odds with reality. Please. I invite you to find one.

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Anything else is just your opinion, probably not based a whole lot on reality.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Show me an example where you have changed your mind on any topic we have discussed? Now show me three examples?

I've changed my mind about gun control.
......

This wasn't addressed to you now was it?

Quote:

What about YOU? Have YOU changed your mind on anything?

Me? Lots of things. For beginners I read a few of Frem's Patrick Henry links which has greatly expanded my awareness of the debates had about the formation of the constitution. Reading "Federalist" you only see people refute arguments you dont see the arguments themselves. It's changed my view of that entire period.

I've changed my mind on gun control, I used to be of the opinion that personal gun ownership had no place in a civilised society. Now I see no harm in the idea that properly administrated it might be a good thing.

While it hasn't changed my opinion as such I think I now have a better grasp of where in the spectrum I am in the personal liberty vs public order debate I am. I think I have actively refined my position as a result.

Almost every topic we discuss here that extends beyond an irrational belief has resulted in background reading ranging from US law through to cell biology. It's fantastic.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:16 PM

Rue I asked for examples where you changed your mind and got another puffed up important speech about how through you are.

Still waiting on those examples.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:17 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
QUOTE
"What we saw instead was a network of emotion circuits lighting up, including circuits hypothesized to be involved in regulating emotion, and circuits known to be involved in resolving conflicts." ...

Once partisans had come to completely biased conclusions -- essentially finding ways to ignore information that could not be rationally discounted.

---------------------

I've always known that some posters are emotionally-driven. Now I know why they're so resistant to facts.

---------------------------------

I think Rue said in another thread something to the effect that if you repeat something often enough and forcefully enough, eventually people will start to believe it. This study seems to show that we might have some ability to block this brainwashing effect by identifying people as adversaries. Seems like its easier to brainwash people who don't know that your an adversary.

"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:21 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
This wasn't addressed to you now was it?

I thought it was. Especially that part where you said

Quote:
Could you two just get a room?

I didn't catch much distinction there. BTW- I noticed you haven't yet come up with an example of Rue not being fact-based. "Changing your mind" is not necessarily an indication of being non-partisan or realistic. Galileo comes to mind as an example of someone who was forced to mouth a popular- but erroneous - belief.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:21 PM

CHRISISALL

I've changed my mind on Bush- there was a time when I pegged him as an outright evil liar..I don't think he's evil anymore.

Evil Chrisisall

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:22 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Still waiting for you to reply to my question. When have I posted something at odds with reality ? You said that I was a poster child for that. I asked for one measly example. You can't seem to provide one. Not even one. If I was a poster child, examples should be easy to find.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I've changed my mind on Bush- there was a time when I pegged him as an outright evil liar..I don't think he's evil anymore.

Who you tryin' to convince isall :p

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:35 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I've changed my mind on Bush- there was a time when I pegged him as an outright evil liar..I don't think he's evil anymore.
Who you tryin' to convince isall :p

Oh, he's still an outright liar, he just thinks he's doing it for the greater good.

Wink-y Chrisisall

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:40 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Just 'cause I'm still waiting.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Still waiting for you to reply to my question. When have I posted something at odds with reality ? You said that I was a poster child for that. I asked for one measly example. You can't seem to provide one. Not even one. If I was a poster child, examples should be easy to find.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:43 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I guess I evaluate a person's outlook on HOW they discuss a point, not what conclusions they reach. When people chnage the subject, attack, disappear, put words in people's mouths, refuse to answer, threaten, etc. then I know they're reacting emotionally.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Oh, he's still an outright liar, he just thinks he's doing it for the greater good.

You're full of crap IsAll!

ZZZAAAAP!

You make a persuasive argument IsAll!

BendyCitizenIsABit.

No, not like that, jesus.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Still waiting for you to reply to my question. When have I posted something at odds with reality ? You said that I was a poster child for that. I asked for one measly example. You can't seem to provide one. Not even one. If I was a poster child, examples should be easy to find.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Rue I asked for examples where you changed your mind and got another puffed up important speech about how through you are.

Still waiting on those examples.

You answer first!
No you!
I asked first!
Did not!
Yuhuh!
Nuhuh!
[BLACKADDER VOICE]GET ON WITH IT![/BLACKADDER VOICE]

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:50 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Once partisans had come to completely biased conclusions -- essentially finding ways to ignore information that could not be rationally discounted -- not only did circuits that mediate negative emotions like sadness and disgust turn off, but subjects got a blast of activation in circuits involved in reward -- similar to what addicts receive when they get their fix, Westen explains.

"None of the circuits involved in conscious reasoning were particularly engaged," says Westen. "Essentially, it appears as if partisans twirl the cognitive kaleidoscope until they get the conclusions they want, and then they get massively reinforced for it, with the elimination of negative emotional states and activation of positive ones."

---------------------

I've always known that some posters are emotionally-driven. Now I know why they're so resistant to facts.

One assumes that you don't include yourself in the 'emotionally-driven partisan' category.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:53 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Citizen

Well you know, this is what Fletch thinks "the two of you (are) amongst the most guilty here of ignoring stuff that disagrees with your "reality.""

I asked for one example. Just one. One little slice of reality.

***************************************************************
Waiting, is all.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:53 PM

CHRISISALL

I found one!

Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
The Iraqi WMD have actually been located- they were cut up and welded into cars and trucks...every car and truck in the Middle East is sporting the evidence (hide in plain sight as it were). I apologize to all the persons like Hero and AURaptor who had it right...

This is pathologically divorced from reality, Rue, how could you even have posted such a thing?

Really really bad Chrisisall

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:54 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ... where is that knee-slapping doubled over with laughter emoticon when you need it ?

***************************************************************
I've actually done that - laughed so hard I could hardly stand up and was slapping my knee to express how funny it was 'cause I couldn't talk.

Call ME Geezer.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:57 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
One assumes that you don't include yourself in the 'emotionally-driven partisan' category.

I used to be.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:57 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Chris....BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Citizen

Well you know, this is what Fletch thinks "the two of you (are) amongst the most guilty here of ignoring stuff that disagrees with your "reality.""

I asked for one example. Just one. One little slice of reality.

***************************************************************
Waiting, is all.

I was making no judgement beyond how funny it was. While you're both waiting for the other to provide evidence for some transient, largely irrelivent point, all you're going to get out of each other is "you go first."

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:06 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Citizen

You're right. It was just an ad hominem on Fletch's part and really didn't deserve a reply.

***************************************************************
But it does tell me something interesting about Fletch.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:06 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
And that's great, makes you human, means you have the same frustrations and failings we all have and that's fantastic. The problem comes when you think that makes you better than the rest of us. From my seat in the peanut gallery there is zero difference between you and say Hero or Geezer except in lawish kind of questions Hero has a slight edge.

I suspect that this is the single most important, if not the only real point, that will come from this thread.

I remember going to Star Trek conventions when I was young and I always thought of myself a huge Star Trek Fan, yet it never failed to surprise me the degree to which some people are truly committed. The amount of money, effort and shear gall that it must take to dress in a Klingon costume complete with the little ripples on the forehead just amazes me. But the ones that truly stand out where the Vulcan impersonators. I spoke with one guy who, despite his best efforts to portray himself as a purely logical and emotionless Vulcan, only managed to come across like a serial killer. Human beings are not robots. It is not a natural state for us to always be logical or objective. And that’s not a bad thing. The ability to compute the world around us with complex schemes, instead of Boolean logic, makes our brains infinitely superior to computers. We don’t have infinite knowledge of our environment, so we could never analyze the world around us to the depth that we do with logic alone, but our ability to think in terms of schema instead of 0s and 1s, means that we don’t always need complete knowledge of our environment, we can infer, deduce and conjecture. And we can have confidence in these deduction because unlike computers and Boolean logic, it is a far simpler matter for us to interpret complicated patterns from background noise. We can make leaps of faith that are impossible for computers.

Some people believe that this is a shameful characteristic of human nature and like the Vulcan trekkie they are desperate to try to shed themselves of the idea that they could have beliefs or convictions, but its like trying to step outside your own body. The desperate desire to evolve beyond our own convictions is likely to do nothing more then make us completely dependent on them. The unwillingness to view an opinion as a conviction or a true belief, means that opinion will always be accepted with more confidence then it warrants. And this is where the arrogance comes from.

Beliefs and convictions are not always right and people who are blindly indebted to them can often find themselves or others deeply regretting the actions they took based on them. But this doesn’t mean that convictions and beliefs are bad, only that we should be careful to understand the distinction between what we believe and what we know, at least in our own thoughts, and assign an appropriate degree of confidence. I remember discussing with signym and rue about the distinction between belief and knowledge, and I don’t think that either Signym or Rue ever managed to understand what I was saying. I think they couldn’t understand it because neither of them would allow that their point of view could be anything other then knowledge for fear that they might find themselves admitting to their convictions. I would submit that there is no difference between a person who refuses to accept that his or her point of view is anything but knowledge and one who believes blindly in their own conviction.

So much like the creepy Vulcan impersonator, people who refuse to embrace their convictions will always end up blindingly following them.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:09 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"have beliefs or convictions"

Not a bad thing until one abandons reality in favor of those beliefs or convictions. That was kind of the point of the article.

***************************************************************
"admitting to their convictions" I freely admit I have a belief in an objective reality. But I've said that many times before.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:12 PM

FREMDFIRMA

You know, this whole mess would go a little easier if folks were just plainly forthcoming about their agendas and the reasoning behind them.

I try to keep to a policy of admitting bias on a subject prior to discussion and establishing clarity of what that agenda is right up front, although at times I have "baited" a discussion to see where it goes, as a whole there shouldn't be any doubt and if I feel there is, I'll clarify it some more if I can get it across at all.

I mean, after a while, someones intent, perspective and agenda shines through anyway, so why NOT just admit it right up front beforehand ?

That having been said, I do think we're kinda down to picking nits here and I doubt it's gonna go anywhere... feel free to prove me wrong however.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
That having been said, I do think we're kinda down to picking nits here and I doubt it's gonna go anywhere... feel free to prove me wrong however.

I think there is an interesting trend here. That many are trying to personalise this issue on to the 'other side'. Not singling anyone out, or removing myself from the potential pool, but I find it interesting that it has quickly devolved into attempts by both 'sides' to discredit the other.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:27 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I just found it illuminating. Now I know how Rap can say there were WMDs in Iraq, and AntiM can insist evolution is wrong, how those two and others like Hero can say there's no such thing as global warming, how 32% percent of USers can say that Bush is doing a good job ... and so on. I used to bang my head on that - all you have to do is just look at the facts ! Now I know that actively dismissing facts is actually rewarding to folks. This really explains a lot.

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Another bit of reality just fell into place.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Just 'cause I'm still waiting.
Quote:
.

Unfortunately the "SigRue" collective tends to merge in my recollection and I didnt want to bring up an example that wasn't yours. I'm not in a possition to research posts right now but off the top of my head.

1) "Knowing" there were no WMD's in Iraq. You could not "know" ahead of time that there were none, you could say that the ballance of the evidence was against there being some (even though AFAIK that wasnt the case), you could admit that you had a gut feeling. You can't KNOW, how could you? On what information before the event could you base such a conclusion?
If Hans Blix can not "know" hos could you?

2) The huge "Taze me" question where you swore blind that there was no legal basis for removing speakers or baring them from speaking at a public university even though I found court cases that said otherwise. In addition you decided that campus policy wouldnt allow removal based on the policies of an entirely different university. When you finally did find the policy and it allowed the cops to do what they did you decided it was wrong because it didnt comply with your worldview.

I gave you two... I'm waiting for my 3.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:39 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

They MAY be SignyM's but they COULD be mine, so I'm responding -

"1) Knowing" there were no WMD's in Iraq." Based on evidence, not on opinion.

"2) no legal basis for removing speakers or baring them from speaking at a public university even though I found court cases that said otherwise." Court cases from a different university at odds with the policy of UofF, and ...

"2) ... it allowed the cops to do what they did (though) you decided it was wrong because it didnt comply with your worldview." In the end - police dismissed the charges. Didn't they ? Oh yeah, another little bit of reality. We'll never get inside Meyer's head, or the cops, the hosts of the event, or the prosecutors. In the end the University is reviewing it's policy and the charges got dismissed for the 'cost' of an apology. I'm going with me being more right than you.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"1) Knowing" there were no WMD's in Iraq." Based on evidence, not on opinion.

You could not "know" you could not. You did not have enough information to "know" 100% sure. You could claim the ballence of the evidence led you to a conclusion, you could postulate a theory later backed up by observation but you can't "know."

Quote:

"2) no legal basis for removing speakers or baring them from speaking at a public university even though I found court cases that said otherwise." Court cases from a different university at odds with the policy of UofF, and ...

The policy said that they could remove him. And the decision came from a Federal court, might not be the circuit that UofF was in but it carries more weight than Rue's opinion especially since SCOTUS decided not to hear an appeal and let it stand.

Quote:

"2) it allowed the cops to do what they did you decided it was wrong because it didnt comply with your worldview." In the end - police dismissed the charges. Didn't they ? Oh yeah, another little bit of reality.

After he issued an appology and said he was wrong --- another little bit of everyone else's reality.

I showed you mine.... I'm looking for you to put up or shut up.

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:20 PM

Still waiting... Look there is no need to even provide links, do as Siggy did and just tell us 3 things where discussion here led to you changing your opinion on something. Just 3?

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Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:22 PM