Losing virginity early or late tied to health risks by citizen

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Signym: SHOULD children have sex? If so, how young? Under what conditions?
Chrisisal: In Ira Levins' book, This Perfect Day, children were introduced to sex as soon as they felt the urges, ...
I would have loved that at age 13 or so....
Signym: Confession here? I would have loved it at age 6.

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That's not the part that you misunderstood. But it's a known fact that some children... yes, those innocent little angels... can have intense sexual arousal. And yep, that's what I was experiencing. I know it's a horrifying thought (to you) but I'm not about the deny the truth because it doesn't fit into your view of the way things "should" be.

But you're under the assumption that I'm a horny old guy who just wants to defile your daughters, which is why you assume that I'm making the argument that all kids should screw like monkeys. 'Cause yanno, there's my entre.

I'm not a horny guy. Chris had it figured out but you are too blinded by your own assumptions to notice what's right in front of your face. Go re-read his posts and become enlightened.

BTW- You've entirely mischaracterized my position, and have once again decided to attack the person and not discuss the points. You have NO idea what I think. Get out of your own head, Finn. Take a deep breath, open your eyes, look around, stop that yammering list of "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" and just SEE what is out there.
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Always look upstream.

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 5:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Most youngsters had sexual intercourse between 13 and 16 years of age.... "mutual orgasms were expected and... nearly always achieved”

Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' 'bout!

Evil

Chrisisall

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 6:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Signym: SHOULD children have sex? If so, how young? Under what conditions?
Chrisisal: In Ira Levins' book, This Perfect Day, children were introduced to sex as soon as they felt the urges, ...
I would have loved that at age 13 or so....
Signym: Confession here? I would have loved it at age 6.

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That's not the part that you misunderstood. But it's a known fact that some children... yes, those innocent little angels... can have intense sexual arousal. And yep, that's what I was experiencing. I know it's a horrifying thought (to you) but I'm not about the deny the truth because it doesn't fit into your rigid view of the world.

But you're under the assumption that I'm a horny old guy who just wants to defile your daughters, which is why you assume that I'm making the argument that all kids should screw like monkeys. I'm not a horny guy. Chris had it figured out but you are too blinded by your own assumptions to notice what's right in front of your face. Go re-read his posts and become enlightened. .

Actually, that‘s not my impression of you at all, nor has it ever been. I’m not arguing the reason why you said what you said, I’m using it to demonstrate the way some critics of abstinence only view what is appropriate with regard to sex and children. I’m painting a picture of the allowable limits of what is deemed appropriate in this discussion. In this discussion, debate about six year olds having sex is deemed appropriate, but even the mention of responsibility with regard to sex, gets ridiculed even as far as to compare it to Taliban style totalitarianism. And it’s not unique to just this discussion. It is one that I have to deal with in almost every discussion on teen sexuality or almost anytime I bring up the idea of responsibly with regard to sex. As our culture seemingly moves further and further towards quick and easy fun, we may be becoming too overly critical of responsibility with regard to sexuality and family. And it’s a pretty sad picture to paint.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 6:12 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
LOL....you guys are KILLIN' me here!!!!
*wipes away tears*

Okay...now THIS exchange would REALLY surprise me...

*image swirls cuing the dream sequence*

I never tried to paint Finn as an extremist, though he certainly did so to me, he in fact flat out said I was. I said he preferred Abstinence to what it's critics argue for, which again are his words more or less. He then implied that he didn't think measures such as teaching children contraception should be included, right here:

Quote:
“Abstinence is the best policy, but let me show you all the wonderful paraphernalia that you can could use that will make sex completely safe and wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

I get he doesn't support abstinence only, but neither does he appear to support full education. Instead of trying to explore that issue he tries to paint me as Anti-Religion, then denies that an obvious attack is one, and spends the entire thread trying to push it further off course. He's been entirely unreasonable, and I don't care for his complete disrespect for people who have a different opinion to him.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 6:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Finn:
Sorry Citizen, if I'm not as clear as I could be sometimes, I just don't respond well to animosity, and I'm feeling sort of attacked here. I basically like you guys- but it seems like you want to see me as the one who's wrong here...

You do sometimes have a knack for summing things up.

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 6:23 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You do sometimes have a knack for summing things up.

Not really. He indicates that you 'basically like you guys', which is obviously as far from the truth as you can possibly get. It's nothing to do with wanting to see you as the one in the wrong, it's that you are, but want to see me as the one in the wrong.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 6:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Instead of trying to explore that issue he tries to paint me as Anti-Religion

*Mal voice*
Well he did a bit.
Everybody's fussin'...

Peace n' understandingisall

to BDN

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 6:29 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Actually, that‘s not my impression of you at all, nor has it ever been. I’m not arguing the reason why you said what you said, I’m using it to demonstrate the way some critics of abstinence only view what is appropriate with regard to sex and children... In this discussion, debate about six year olds having sex is deemed appropriate, but even the mention of responsibility with regard to sex, gets ridiculed even as far as to compare it to Taliban style totalitarianism.

What you're saying is that the conversation lacks balance. One side of the spectrum gets ridiculed, the other side is taken seriously.

Okay, I get it. I like to look at ALL arguments 'cause I might be missing something, so let's look at your end. Tell me if I'm wrong. You prefer abstinence until marriage. That is your ideal. I'm not sure that a lot of people would vehemently disagree. Heck, everyone's entitled to a preference. But the point that I'm not clear on, and I suppose a lot of other people aren't clear on either is.... are you a proponent of abstinence ONLY education? Or do you favor also teaching about sex, birth control, masturbation, the reasons why kids have sex all that other stuff?

FWIW, I feel a little envious of all those kids who grew up with sex ed. I went to a Catholic school and grew up in the household where nobody talked about sex. Everything I learned I had to figure our on my own. I sometimes wonder if sex ed would have eliminated some experiments and maybe saved me a few mistakes.
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Always look upstream.

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 7:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Okay, I get it. I like to look at ALL arguments 'cause I might be missing something, so let's look at your end. Tell me if I'm wrong. You prefer abstinence until marriage. That is your ideal. I'm not sure that a lot of people would vehemently disagree. Heck, everyone's entitled to a preference. But the point that I'm not clear on, and I suppose a lot of other people aren't clear on either is.... are you a proponent of abstinence ONLY education? Or do you favor also teaching about sex, birth control, masturbation, the reasons why kids have sex all that other stuff?

I think I explained myself pretty well already. I am not a proponent of abstinence only and I am in favor of teaching "sex education," meaning sex, birth control and masturbation. Although I don’t have any intentions of getting into discussion of why 6-year olds have sex, because that’s just a little too damn bent.

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 8:02 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Okay then, I think you and everybody else in this thread pretty much agree. And in THIS culture, sex at 6 IS "bent".

It seems to me that our commercialized view of sex and Islam have something in common: it's all about dominance. We've tied violence and sex so closely it will take years to disentangle. It seems to me that Muslims look down SO far on women that hetero sex approaches bestiality. So I guess it's all about context, which we have to take into accoutn when forming our decisions.

But OOC- Is there anything about this culture that you would change with regards to sex?

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Always look upstream.

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 8:34 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Oh yeah, Finn, just scrolling though the first third of the thread I found many instances where you either attacked the person or misrepresented their argument.

So here is a small sampling, for your edification:

Allow children to do whatever they want without supervision and you as a parent deserve to have your skin flayed and strung up by your nose hairs. Don’t play this game with me, Chris. No good parents allows their children to go to amusement parks without supervision of some sort or allows them to watch TV unabatedly without concern for what they are watching, so why do people advocate that children should be allowed to have sex at will without parental consideration?

You’re absolutely right. Since sex by it’s nature is generally a private thing and parents aren’t allowed to be directly involved in the children’s sex life, the only solution is to let children screw unabatedly without concern for their emotional or physical well-being.

In other words, you don’t really have a rational response.

Spoken like a single guy without daughters.

Blah blah Blah. As usual, you can’t deal with the issues, so you attack the person you don’t agree with or take someone’s words out of context. (This one is particularly ironic.)

I see, so 15 year old girls should screw all they want, because they can always kill or give away the pregnancies? Man that’s some cold shit.

I doubt it. Even those who buy into your general ideology aren’t stupid. They know damn well you’re full of shit, even if they don’t confront you on it.

Or you could just try to instill in your children a since of self-pride and responsibility, so that they can always make the best effort to enjoy all of life’s riches, without becoming bitter and cynical. I guess telling them to live life to the lees with carefree abandon is easier, but failing to inform them of what might very well happen if they do, seems like a real asshole thing to do to your children.

I don’t think I have been secretive about what my views are. I’ve been talking about them all through this thread. If you can’t have a conversation with someone without putting words in their mouth, then I can’t do anything about that, but I don’t have to participate. When you decide you’d like to know what I think instead of the thoughts you want to attribute to me, then my posts will still be here for you to read.

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I leave you to decide which is which. If you have any problems, I'll be able to help you out.

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 9:03 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It seems to me that Muslims look down SO far on women that hetero sex approaches bestiality. So I guess it's all about context, which we have to take into accoutn when forming our decisions.

I think this is a mischaracterization. I don't pretend to be a Muslim scholar, but I have read the Koran and a few potted histories of the life of the prophet. Mohammed was in effect a kept man, he married a rich widow and her money gave him the freedom to travel and preach. She was educated and it seems to have been a relationship that was equitable. Later on in the Koran he sets forth rules that give women rights to inherit property, requirements on men for the fair treatment of women etc. This was FAR short of equality, which should be the standard we all aim for today but for it's time and in that culture it was screamingly progressive and certainly better than we had in Europe at that time where a woman was effectively the property of her father and then her husband.

The problem comes with the underlying Arab culture. In theory a girl wearing a full Burka on a London street is breaking the rules of Islam with regards to modest dress. She is drawing attention to herself and being different from those around her, which the Koran says Muslims should not do. The fact that her family forces her to wear it is Arab culture trumping the intent of Islamic teaching, much how a car salesman can lie and cheat during the week, go to church on Sunday and think of themselves as a good Christian.

Arab culture sees women as the responsibility of men, her own father and brothers while she is unmarried and her husbands family when she weds. They are seen in effect as children who should follow the rules set by their menfolk. The irony of the Burka is that on some level it comes from the desire by the family to "protect" the woman's reputation (and by extension their own.) It's an example of how protection can become oppression if used excessively.

So no, Muslim men don't view women as animals, they view them as something they have a responsibility to protect even when the result of that "protection" is stupid and misguided.

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 10:41 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Well Rue, I try not to engage in the same behavior. Which means I really try to stick to the topic despite provocation. Yes, Finn demonizes the opposition. But then, sometimes so do you. And I personally don't want to get into who started it first.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 10:56 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Read JUST MY POSTS.

If you can find an example, please let me know.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 4:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:

Arab culture sees women as the responsibility of men, her own father and brothers while she is unmarried and her husbands family when she weds.

Being a lazy guy from a corrupt western culture, I prefer my women to be able to think for themselves. Makes for less work for me & better conversation after sex.

Lazy Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 8:23 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The infamous dbl

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 8:26 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Okay Rue, I re-read the whole thread. I DID find several instances where I think you rather purposefully took Finn's statements out of context, where it was pretty clear what he meant, and that was

Are you saying that the abstinence-only crowd invites their parents along on the honeymoon ?
Wait a minute. I thought the reason to not teach sex-ed in schools was because the parents are teaching it at home. So the parents are NOT now allowed to be directly involved in their children's sex lives ? That means the schools better start teaching sex-ed. Right ?
And the burqa, which was a joke but Finn took it seriously.

OTOH.... Finn, no wonder people get pissed at you. You REALLY put words in people's mouths. You spent a lot of time arguing with the phantoms in your head, not the posters. IN EVERY POST you called a lot of names: fanatic, uncaring, "bent", advocating promiscuity, interested only in screwing young girls, irrational, full of shit, anti-religious (as if that's part of the discussion), irresponsible... Hell, you almost called some folks sexual predators. And for what? For advocating sex education! Which, it turns out, you agree with!

I'm beginning to see why so many discussions with you go downhill so fast. You can dish it out but....

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 12:35 PM

RIVERFLAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
so why do people advocate that children should be allowed to have sex at will without parental consideration?

Because it's none of the parent's damn business, that's why!!!

I don't have kids myself, and don't plan to, but I really hate people that assume that parents have the right to be dictators to their kids. Kids are humans too, last time I checked, and while they do need people to teach them how to function in society, they have the right to make their own decisions.

That was just from that part of the thread; now I've read the rest of it, and...

I am getting way confused by what you guys are all saying. I think everyone is just getting mixed up with all these accusations and counter-accusations. Why don't you all just state your opinions, and nothing else, and lets go from there.

My opinion is that we need to teach kids everything about sex, and that abstinence only is not enough.

@)~*~*~*$)~*~*~*)~(*~*~*~($*~*~*~(@

Gots to get away from the green, nasty dragon
\~~~*~~^~~*~~~/

I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy!
#~%~~*~~~&~~~*~~%~#
My favorite quotes:

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 3:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:
Because it's none of the parent's damn business, that's why!!!

Well, I won’t say I agree, but I will say that I really appreciate your honesty. It’s very refreshing given the approach I’ve seen in this thread so far.

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 8:15 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh poor Finn! He's the only one being straightforward in this whole thread! Pobrecito!

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Always look upstream.

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 8:20 PM