Evil lefty Liberal subversive media lies about Bush, the war, the vets, and Rush Limbaugh's drug addiction!!!! by chrisisall

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Evil lefty Liberal subversive media lies about Bush, the war, the vets, and Rush Limbaugh's drug addiction!!!!

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 09:45
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VIEWED: 5291
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Monday, December 3, 2007 8:18 AM

Pure Democracies are ones where the people can petition to have any question placed to a popular vote and then the whole population gets to vote on the proposition. I believe the Swiss have that kind of system?

Most places have a representational democracy where the people elect representatives that make laws and vote on issues on their behalf (?)

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Monday, December 3, 2007 9:08 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Pure Democracies are ones where the people can petition to have any question placed to a popular vote and then the whole population gets to vote on the proposition. I believe the Swiss have that kind of system?

So it's what, another name for Direct democracy?

Though I suspect that's not the meaning Kirkules had in mind, firstly because its not the system Venezuela has.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, December 3, 2007 9:33 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

JONGSSTRAW wrote:

Quote:
...please tell me how you ever know what to believe or not.

Easy. If you're a Liberal, you've likely been to college and gotten a higher education, so you have an idea how to run things through your internal logic filters to sift out the truth. Also, you can actually READ, so you get your news from more than one source.

If you're a Conservative, you just believe whatever Bush tells you to. Y'know, because he's never, ever, EVER been wrong.

CHRISISALL wrote:

Quote:

Lets see:
Gun control- leaves guns in the hands of the unlawful.
Abortion- hey, it ain't MY body or embryo...
God- I have dumb ideas of my own, so who am I to say he/she/it don't exist?
Drunk driving- if you can't drive well while drunk, you shouldn't!
Bush- means well, but there's only so much you can do with a 90 IQ.
Clinton- wuss.
The U.S. government perping 9-11- what? We don't already have ENOUGH conspiracy theories??
Taxes- destroy income tax and flat tax non-essentials and luxuries.
Military- keep 'em strong, well equipped and trained.
Gay marriage- whatever.
Israel- nice place, but I don't wanna pay for it.
Iran- bad place, but I don't wanna invade it.

Pretty close, actually:
Gun control- the best gun control is a steady hand. Gun control means hitting what you aimed at.
Abortion- Ever notice that the people who are so dedicated to safeguarding a life from the moment of conception lose all interest in that life right after the moment of birth?
God- You say "church", I say "crutch".
Drunk driving- if you can't drive well while drunk, you shouldn't!
Bush- You say he means well, I say he's, well, MEAN!
Clinton- wuss with horrible taste in women.
The U.S. government perping 9-11 - I don't think my government played a hand in the 9/11 attacks -BUT I think they absconded with the patriotic fervor that came after and used it for their own agenda...
Taxes- destroy income tax and flat tax non-essentials and luxuries. Bingo.
Military- keep 'em strong, well equipped and trained. And use ONLY in case of emergencies, not just to show off to your daddy what a bad-ass you are.
Gay marriage- whatever. How does the two guys next door to me getting married destroy MY marriage?
Israel- nice place, but I don't wanna pay for it.
Iran- bad place, but I don't wanna invade it.

Mike

Remember, Kiddies, you can't spell "QUAGMIRE" without "I", "R", "A", & "Q"!

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Monday, December 3, 2007 10:22 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Easy. If you're a Liberal, you've likely been to college and gotten a higher education, so you have an idea how to run things through your internal logic filters to sift out the truth. Also, you can actually READ, so you get your news from more than one source.

If you're a Conservative, you just believe whatever Bush tells you to. Y'know, because he's never, ever, EVER been wrong.

So which are you Kwicko? Are you an enlightenend liberal whose 'gotten' their education or are you a poor dumb conservative needing to be told what to think?

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Monday, December 3, 2007 11:18 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Pure Democracies are ones where the people can petition to have any question placed to a popular vote and then the whole population gets to vote on the proposition. I believe the Swiss have that kind of system?
So it's what, another name for Direct democracy?

Though I suspect that's not the meaning Kirkules had in mind, firstly because its not the system Venezuela has.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

Fletch2 is correct about what I was trying to say and you were also correct in pointing out that my Chavez comment did not help my argument. It was my impression that the Venezuelan elections allow them to directly vote on constitutional amendments. I read that they were voting to decide if Chavez could run for another term and assumed that this meant "direct or pure democracy". My intended implication in mentioning Chavez was that it is much more difficult to make constitutional changes in the US because of our form of Democratic Republic. My argument was defiantly not well made. I blame that on the US education system and five or six beers.

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Monday, December 3, 2007 11:22 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Pure Democracies are ones where the people can petition to have any question placed to a popular vote and then the whole population gets to vote on the proposition. I believe the Swiss have that kind of system?
So it's what, another name for Direct democracy?

Though I suspect that's not the meaning Kirkules had in mind, firstly because its not the system Venezuela has.

Not exactly, but I suspect that direct democracy is about as close to a pure democratic system you can get.

To give this some context at the time that the US constitution was being drafted there was a lot of discussion about the form of govenment they would have. They decided against pure democracy because.

1) Every classical democracy had failed.
2) They didnt really trust the people not to turn it into mob rule

3) In theory a pure democracy is dangerous to property rights in that a poor person has the same vote as a rich one and there are a lot more poor people. In theory in a pure democracy the poor could just vote themselves the rich's property.

So anyway the US decided on a representative republic.

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Monday, December 3, 2007 11:29 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Easy. If you're a Liberal, you've likely been to college and gotten a higher education, so you have an idea how to run things through your internal logic filters to sift out the truth. Also, you can actually READ, so you get your news from more than one source.

If you're a Conservative, you just believe whatever Bush tells you to. Y'know, because he's never, ever, EVER been wrong.

So which are you Kwicko? Are you an enlightenend liberal whose 'gotten' their education or are you a poor dumb conservative needing to be told what to think?

I don't know want makes you think liberals are better educated than conservatives, but if you look at the exit polls from the US 2006 election you will see that the same number of voting Republicans have college educations as democrats.

On second thought was you statement meant to be a joke and I"m just to dumb to get it.

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Monday, December 3, 2007 11:53 AM

STORYMARK

Yeah, but the exit polls also claimed someone else shoulda won the election.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 3, 2007 12:22 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Posted by Fremdfirma:

Quote:
I don't get why folks delude themselves into thinking that it's a republic or a democracy, when it's clearly and in practice a Totalarianist Corporate Oligarchy - which is what I been calling it since 1980 when a well meaning teacher asked me what kind of Government we had.

That's a cool story.

Yep, we're the Blue Sun Alliance.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.

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Monday, December 3, 2007 1:23 PM

FREMDFIRMA

CTS, in all truth, my nieces frighten me, especially the youngest.

Fifteen years, I kept my distance, other than fistfulls of presents for the last couple years at xmas, they barely knew I existed, which was more my doing than anyone elses because of not wanting to meddle, and in part cause of the work I do, and the folk who don't like me doin it.

So there's no WAY any doings of mine could have influanced this, and yet, as matters have come to a head rather recently, both of em have the exact same sideways thought process and proto-anarchist beliefs in spite of every attempt to crush it out of them by that school and their own relations - leading to a "YOU understand this... YOU handle this!" kind of call upon me to "do something about it".. yeah, like what, bout all I can do at *this* point is give them the understanding and mental tools to cope with the rest of the world without resorting to violence, survival skills for dealing with folks who don't think the same as they do, and comfort that at least someone, somewhere, does understand them and doesn't think they're bat-shit crazy for wanting to be treated like people, wanting to get a straight answer beyond "Cause I said so!"...

Truthfully it's all *I* can do not to respond to some of these folk with violence, no matter how justified, cause I am tryin to set an example for a pair of kids who idolize me to the point of having to be very, VERY careful what I say or do, cause they'll emulate it sure as the sun comes up - I've tried to weaken that fanaticism by pointing out my own mistakes and flaws, as well as pointing out that perhaps their uncle isn't exactly the best role model to be emulating here.. but I figure it'll fade as they grow more independant, leastways I hope so...

I really do wonder how much of it's genetic, but it's always been my belief that while genetics loads the cannon, it's environment that pulls the lanyard.

Sending them to THAT school was about the worst possible boneheaded move, and they did it anyway in spite of my advice not to, and now they dare whinge to me that it caused the very trouble I told them it would ?

But then again, hardhearded stubborn jackassery is like, the very hallmark of the entire line, from both ends, so what you gonna do, yanno ?

And anyway...how DO you teach someone to survive in a world where their compassion, empathy, tolerance, free will and every other concept that even makes them what they are is unwelcome, hated on, despised... and always will be ?

That's why I have no kids, I am unwilling to repeat my mothers mistake and raise a child who's values and existance were, and would forever be, unwelcome in the world they had to live in.

I look at how hate, racism, theological fanaticism, intolerance, exploitation, greed, sadism and ignorance are held up on pedastals as the "values" of the truly successful, social role models who glorify, rather than vilify that conduct..not just in our own country, but all over the world, and I look at the night sky... and it's all that I can think, is that I desire to be AWAY FROM HERE, these people, their disgusting, inhumane and perverse societies, their cruelty and malice, just.. far, far AWAY, and I want off this rock before these lunatics blow it half to hell and make it uninhabitable over some ridiculous bullshit.

And if I cannot have it, then I would like for the girls to have that option when they begin to yearn for it as earnestly as I do now.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 9:29 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
So which are you Kwicko? Are you an enlightenend liberal whose 'gotten' their education or are you a poor dumb conservative needing to be told what to think?

Enlightened? Hardly. I try to satisfy myself with the knowledge that I am more enlightened today than I was yesterday, and less than I will be tomorrow.

Quote:
On second thought was you statement meant to be a joke and I"m just to dumb to get it.

You're getting warmer... ;)

Frankly, pretty much EVERY statement I make is meant to be somewhat of a joke - a kernel of truth packed with a grain of salt. Take it as such.

Remember, Kiddies, you can't spell "QUAGMIRE" without "I", "R", "A", & "Q"!

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 3:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

AURAPTOR Finally have enough time to answer. Sorry for the long delay.

I read your answer, I went to the Heritage Foundation links. What I found what a lot of misunderstanding (on your part) and misleading word-smithing at the Heritage website.

The usual theory behind tax cuts is to remove money from government hands, which “stimulates” the economy, leading to an increase in GDP and therefore an increase in (real) revenues. (BTW, I only use inflation adjusted, i.e. ‘real”, dollars unless I specify otherwise.) So theoretically, what we SHOULD have seen after the tax cut was an increase in GDP, and an increase in revenues. Correct? Instead, what we see in year to year GDP growth is:

1992 3.32
1993 2.67
1994 4.02
1995 2.50
1997 8.34
1998 4.17
1997 4.50
1998 4.17
1999 4.45
2000 3.66
------------------------------
2001 0.75
2002 1.60
2003 2.51
2004 3.64
2005 3.07
2006 2.87

www.bea.gov/national/xls/gdplev.xls
BEA footnote: "Real" estimates are in chained (2000) dollars.
www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdpnewsrelease.htm

Similarly, from the President’s OMB, Federal revenues in “real” (Y2000) dollars are as follows

1992 1,282.7
1993 1,323.1
1994 1,413.9
1995 1,482.3
1996 1,557.7
1997 1,661.0
1998 1,793.0
1999 1,874.7
2000 2,025.2
----------------------------------------------
2001 1,945.7
2002 1,780.5
2003 1,677.7
2004 1,661.8
2005 1,849.6
2006 1,952.6
www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2005/sheets/hist01z3.xls

In other words, stripping the words and just looking at the numbers, real revenues declined and real GDP growth slowed drastically after the tax cuts. One of the things that right-wingers like to claim in that the drop in 2000 was due to an expected recession after the go-go years of 1997-1999.

Quote:
it is now clear that the pre-recession {i.e pre-2000} level was a major historical anomaly caused by a temporary stock market bubble.

But Bush did have an equivalent economic stimulus working, and that was the housing bubble due to the Fed’s low interest rate policy. Now that the housing bubble is bursting we’ll get another unvarnished view of how well tax cuts “work” to stimulate the economy.

Looking at Heritage’s verbiage, I find many misleading things in it. I can’t possibly list them all, but here are a few examples:

Quote:
Tax revenues in 2006 were 18.4 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), which is actually above the 20-year, 40-year, and 60-year historical averages. The inflation-adjusted 20 percent tax revenue increase between 2004 and 2006 represents the largest two-year revenue surge since 1965–1967.

If you’ll notice, this quote says nothing about actual, constant-dollar revenues. Also, they claim that tax revenues were "18.4% of GDP." But actually tax revenues were 17.5% of GDP in FY2006, which is a big difference. The figures can be found in table 1.3 of the big pdf that they cite. So Heritage fudged the numbers.

You might find these interesting
http://www.marktaw.com/culture_and_media/TheNationalDebt.html

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 3:47 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

bump for rap.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 3:58 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

read that as 'bum rap'

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, December 4, 2007 5:58 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Dangit Rue! You made me snort coffee on my keyboard!

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, December 5, 2007 3:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Auraptor? Dija read this? Last bump. If you don't reply, I'll consider the subject settled.

Also KIRKULES, I read the Heritage Foundation's interview with Laffer. I found a MAJOR erroneous assumption on his part. Let me know if you want to discuss. Thanks.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, December 7, 2007 7:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Okay, one LAST bump for Rap!

Rap, if you EVER come up with that stupid Heritage Foundation tax-cut stuff again, I'll barf on you!

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 11:58 AM

CAPTAINOLEY

Lol, that would frighten me.

Want to see what the government is doing for you today?

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bil
ls&docid=f:s1959is.txt.pdf

Making you afraid to speak your mind, that's what.

Oley

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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 4:50 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainOley:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bil
ls&docid=f:s1959is.txt.pdf

Well, that's vaguely enough worded that everyone on this board could be hauled off as subversives I conjure...

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 5:51 AM

CAPTAINOLEY

Yea, and I reckon that would be the problem there good sir.

Oley

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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 6:21 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Rap, if you EVER come up with that stupid Heritage Foundation tax-cut stuff again, I'll barf on you!

I'm a tax-cut loving Libertarian and *I* can't stand the Heritage Foundation!

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D., founder of homeopathy

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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 6:32 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainOley:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bil
ls&docid=f:s1959is.txt.pdf

Making you afraid to speak your mind, that's what.

All right, I have a question. Supporters of this bill would say it is targeting violent groups only. If your ideology does not want to achieve change through violence, you're safe. People who want to achieve change through violence *should* be watched.

What do you say to that? How is this bill dangerous to average Joe? Or a RWED poster, for that matter?

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D., founder of homeopathy

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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 6:58 AM

CAPTAINOLEY

Because stuff like this happens.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=31770&m=566396#566396

Sorry can't talk right now; work to do.

Oley

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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 8:47 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
How is this bill dangerous to average Joe? Or a RWED poster, for that matter?

"In closing, your honour, let me sum up- Chrisisall, in advocating for the death of the character "Crow" on the series Firefly, was actually calling for the death of our President using a secret "Browncoat" code known only to them. Waterboarding got said defendant to admit this in front of his tort- uh, I mean wittnesses..."

*shudders*

No sense of humour there. Chrisisall

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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 9:45 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Okay, one LAST bump for Rap!

Rap, if you EVER come up with that stupid Heritage Foundation tax-cut stuff again, I'll barf on you!

I'll duck, and you'll miss. As usual.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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