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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Sad is right, but not for the reasons you're problably thinking.

Sad effort, sad perspective, sad attempt at blaming any ONE person for all the ills of the world or thinking they could do a damn thing about why bad things happen.

What a load of crap.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
You wanna convince folk of something, offer em respect, and then present actual evidence worth a damn, or a convincing argument beyond purile and juvenille nastiness best left on the elementary school playground.

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Originally posted by deadlockvictim:

...the blind admiration some people have for this man is mind-boggling... (at least to me)

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Congratulations, Rap - you finally figured out exactly why I am so passionately nasty...

TO YOU!

I guess we achieved some understanding after all.

YHBT

-F

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Originally posted by deadlockvictim:

...the blind admiration some people have for this man is mind-boggling... (at least to me)

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
... but saying that is a bit different than a pre-emptive flaming of all who hold a different opinion.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Despite the talking points which you've bought into, the facts are quite contrary to how you portray them. Bush has curtailed our freedoms almost nil. We're kicking the terrorit's asses , no giving them a boon in recruiting. Saddam ( I can't believe this still has to be said ) had 10 + yrs to 'comply' , and never did. He never was going to, and that's why we invaded. To force him to comply.

Everyone thought there was WMD, and it was no longer an issue. There was no deception here, save by Saddam.

We don't torture. The handful of times waterboarding was used, it worked. Worked VERY well. It seems it was a very reliable tool. Again, contrary to your well constructed but false talking points.

After 7+ yrs of him being in charge, you not wanting him in charge is really a moot point. Sorry.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Again, contrary to your well constructed but false talking points.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Again, contrary to your well constructed but false talking points.

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His talking points?

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Yes, the tired and old talking points of the Left ( the war is lost, the surge won't work, the war has only produced more recruits, blah blah blah... ) All which have been proven false. Those talking points.

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Originally posted by deadlockvictim:

...the blind admiration some people have for this man is mind-boggling... (at least to me)

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Well, the surge is working, and the war isn't lose , so those haven't been disproven. Sorry to burst your bubble.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Well, the surge is working, and the war isn't lost , so those haven't been disproven. Sorry to burst your bubble.

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Yeah, but those are just extreme right talking points that have been proven false. Sorry to burst your bubble.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Nope. Them's called FACTS. Not talking points.

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The "troop surge" by American soldiers in Iraq is not working, one of Britain's senior military officials in Baghdad has said.

In a pessimistic assessment of the strategy designed to pull Iraq back from all-out civil war, Alastair Campbell, the outgoing defence attaché at the British Embassy in Baghdad, claimed that extra US forces were not achieving the desired drop in violence.

Mr Campbell, whose remarks may cause embarrassment to Downing Street and anger in Washington, said that the casualty figures for April - in which 1,500 civilians are believed to have been killed - provided no "encouraging" evidence.

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The leading foreign policy think-tank, Chatham House, is warning that Iraq faces the distinct possibility of collapse and fragmentation.

A new report from the London-based Chatham House, also known as the Royal Institute of International Affairs, argues that the Iraqi government is now largely powerless and irrelevant in large parts of the country, as a range of local civil wars and insurgencies are fought.

The report urges a radical change in American and British strategy to try to rescue the situation.

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We should not be too surprised by the Petraeus verdict. He is, after all, a military figure obliged to serve his civilian masters. By maintaining a positive spin (if somewhat nuanced) his views are in keeping with the proclamations emanating from a White House that is increasingly divorced from reality and ignoring the negative findings of other government offices and independent analysts alike. It is clear that Iraqi security is something of an oxymoron.
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Petraeus talks of improvements in security caused by the surge, but the evidence suggests otherwise. Virtually every other source points to an increase in deaths during the surge - perhaps by as much as 5% and, even more worrying for the scholar-warrior, fears that the Iraqi military is still a year to 18 months away from being able to operate independently from the US military and therefore be effective.

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The opinion pieces being throw about here are interesting, reminds me of the news coverage of the Vietnam war. One faction claiming every strategy change will produce results, the other highlighting every setback.....

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
That is my assessment too. What we're currently seeing is a pragmatic position being taken by Sunni insurgents -- they have come to realize that there are two "invaders" in Iraq, the Collation and Al Q. The difference is that Al Q is deliberately targeting civilians. There was an interview with a Sunni insurgent leader in the Guardian last year where he said that Al Queda were a pain in the ass that would have to be dealt with after the Americans left, it now seems they changed their priorities.

The Iraqi government is a dead duck, for all the talk of democracy it can only work if the government elected enjoys the support of the people. That doesn't seem to be happening. We need a new approach, one that reduces the country to smaller semi autonomous functional units that hold the majority of the power. That likely means we will get some aholes in some regions but my guess is that when folks like Al Sadar actually have to make sure the electricity stays on and there is clean water they will start to moderate their viewpoint, it's easy to be against the government when you don't have the responsibilities, far harder when people are looking to you for practical answers. They need a Federal system where the main task of central government is using the oil money. Hopefully on stuff like roads, hospitals and schools.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Well I suspect that the problem is that everyone assumed that if you broke the country up into sections you would end up with 3 unsatisfactory groupings.

Kurdistan -- almost immediately in trouble with Turkey
The Sunni Triangle -- who would have no oil and would therefore be troublemakers
The Shite south -- far too chummy with Iran.

I think that was the failure of imagination. The trick is to break things down smaller than just those regions into cities, tribal areas, places where the folks being elected are known to the folks on the ground. Then build up from there. People have really good reasons to get along, only idiots like Al Q benefit from Chaos. With good will you can build a working system from the ground up. That is the way everyone else has had to do it.

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