Water-boarding 'would be torture' by citizen

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Water-boarding 'would be torture'

POSTED BY: CITIZEN
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 22:12
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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 2:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
... They don't want to do anything to fight terrorists. Heaven forbid we eavesdrop on someone calling a cave in Tora Bora, or a group moving money in and out of the First Infidels Will Die Bank. But what they really mean is gee won't I be fucked if someone hears me talking to my drug dealer.

The founders of this nation fought and died for the rights you're trying to throw away. You're cheering for exactly what the terrorists want. They want us to collapse into a police state and piss away the rest of our rights, money and good will chasing our tails. Why don't you just send them a check?
SergeantX

I really don't know what you're talking about. Sounds like hyperbolized paranoia to me. Me, my family, my friends, co-workers, everyone I know...no one has ever been interfered with by the Govt. in any way related to this topic. I guess if you read enough conspiracy and hatred of the Govt. propaganda, one might see things as you do...that everybody & everything is out to get you. You seem to think you have impenatrable privacy righs in America. You don't. From the minute you're born, the big, bad Govt. knows your name and SS number. They know where you live, taxes you pay, school records, and can access credit recports etc. to find out what you do with your money. And I say so what? I know that I'm not conspiring or guily of anything, so if someone wants to waste their time listening to me I really don't care...same on the Internet..You think you have privacy? Hardly. All your stuff can be pulled out any time someone wants to...worried about that too? I'm not.

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 3:59 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
... And I say so what? I know that I'm not conspiring or guily of anything, so if someone wants to waste their time listening to me I really don't care...same on the Internet..You think you have privacy? Hardly. All your stuff can be pulled out any time someone wants to...worried about that too? I'm not.

And that's why I consider you and your ilk to be just as much enemy to my country as the terrorists.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 4:05 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
... And I say so what? I know that I'm not conspiring or guily of anything, so if someone wants to waste their time listening to me I really don't care...same on the Internet..You think you have privacy? Hardly. All your stuff can be pulled out any time someone wants to...worried about that too? I'm not.

And that's why I consider you and your ilk to be just as much enemy to my country as the terrorists.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

Fair enuf....but my ILK doesn't kill people. Your tireless sympathy for terrorist's rights will get all of us killed...but your ILK doesn't care...right? You're suicidal in your beliefs...right? As long as you die not having transgressed against our enemies, or given up one iota of your so-called privacy, you'll be satisfied enough in that.

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 4:22 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Your tireless sympathy for terrorist's rights will get all of us killed...but your ILK doesn't care...right? You're suicidal in your beliefs...right? As long as you die not having transgressed against our enemies, you'll be satisfied enough in that.

That argument? Again? Listen, try and rub a couple of neurons together. It's not the terrorist's rights I'm worried about. As far as I'm concerned, once you've determined someone is a terrorist, do whatever you like with them. But these programs that satiate your fear are attacks on everyone's rights. You can't just target the terrorists. See, they don't exactly wear uniforms.

We can do as you suggest, and give in to the panic and fear that is terrorism's goal. We are doing it, sadly. But people are starting to wake up. It remains to be seen whether it will be soon enough to regain what we've lost.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 4:36 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Who has given in to panic and fear? ...certainly not I !!...I never even think about, but you are obsessing about something that has not and will not ever affect you. Relax & live. Let the people who either get paid or have volunteered deal with terrorists. Fortunately, you & I don't have to. If my small contribution to the effort is not going paranoid and ballistic at the thought of a Govt agent checking my library selections, then I'm proud to have helped my country.

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 4:48 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Not to mention the fact that such activities promote terrorism in of themselves - "You see what the decadent West does to their prisoners?"

And this is where the perspective needs to come into play, because it is not that the US uses torture or not that is the promoting factor for terrorism but rather it’s that you complain about it. Or more importantly that the media broadcasts the criticism of American policy on torture and often quotes people saying derisive inaccurate things about the US concerning torture. People listen on the news or they read a internet forum and they hear SergeantX saying that America is the enemy. And it occurs to them, that maybe Bin Laden’s right. It is not that torture is or isn’t practiced by the US that is the problem you’re referencing here. You’re talking about people who often live in countries where real torture is routinely practiced. If the issue of torture was discussed with a degree of perspective, instead of these knee-jerk emotional reactions, then it wouldn’t be much of a promoting factor at all.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 4:48 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Ever wonder why they haven't made any serious attempt to hit us again?

Have you? Evidently not. If we get attacked, it’s because we provoked it. If we don’t get attacked, it’s be cause we're playing right into the hands of the terrorists.

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
And that's why I consider you and your ilk to be just as much enemy to my country as the terrorists.

And you equate people who don't share your America-is-always-wrong ideology with terrorists regardless of whether they actually employ terrorism or have any propensity to kill at all, much less kill indiscriminately.

In your mind, you've already decided the only real enemy is the Great Satan.

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:04 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
"Knee-jerk" reactions are indeed the problem here. Knee-jerk reaction to any criticism of US policy, for example, blinds us to the fact that our response to terrorism IS the real issue. It's the whole point of terrorism. They can't hope to do us any lasting damage through legitimate means so they provoke us into fits of fear and rage, and then sit back and watch us come unraveled.

What do you consider lasting damage? What kind of loss of life or property would make a lasting impression on you?

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Ever wonder why they haven't made any serious attempt to hit us again? It's because there's no need. We're following the script to the letter.

That could be.
Perhaps further attacks have been prevented by aggressive interrogation tactics.
Perhaps further attacks have been prevented by most of the terrorists being across the ocean.
All any of us can do is speculate and go with the scenario that best fits our way of seeing the world.

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
When we do finally regain our sanity, and chart a more sober course, we'll likely see another attack. At which point folks like you will crank up the emergency sirens (we'll likely go to full-blown martial law next time around) and our downfall will continue on schedule.

And how would you handle further terrorist attacks should they come. Not trying to be a 'neo-con apologist' or derail the discussion, just curious. Are you a part of the do nothing camp? You know, show the terrorists their puny attacks mean nothing and perhaps they will give up the jihad. Do you think some security measures are needed post 9/11? which do you find necessary and which do you find needlessly obtrusive? You are obviously not in the one innocent victim is too many therefore all means necessary are used in the pursuit of terrorists camp.

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 6:56 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

And how would you handle further terrorist attacks should they come. Not trying to be a 'neo-con apologist' or derail the discussion, just curious. Are you a part of the do nothing camp?

Well, just speaking for myself, I want two things done:
Let's LISTEN to the guys and gals that do the actual fieldwork more (that could have PREVENTED 9-11), and let's focus on KILLING Bin Laden already, okay, please????
We can be effective without being paranoid.
Or don't any conservatives hold with that?

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 7:10 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
You could mention it. Being in the wrong has never stopped someone from posting in the past.

Neither has it stopped people being baselessly argumentative and baiting, it would seem.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 3:43 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
In your mind, you've already decided the only real enemy is the Great Satan.

If by "Great Satan" you mean the cadre of morons who can't seem to understand what makes our country worth fighting for in the first place, yeah, I have.

The thing is, these end runs around constitutional protections affect everyone, not just the terrorists. You might not care about your rights to privacy or due process or freedom of association. etc, etc, but I do.

Quote:
your America-is-always-wrong ideology

And here it is again. Over and over you want to pretend that those of us who are raising a fuss about this kind of shit 'hate America'. Get a clue. It's YOU we hate. And we're not going to stand by and watch you piss away our nation's most cherished values because you're afraid of your own shadow. So go ahead and accuse me of being a terrorist sympathizer. The idiocy of such a claim displays your bankrupt reasoning far better than I ever could.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:51 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
So go ahead and accuse me of being a terrorist sympathizer. The idiocy of such a claim displays your bankrupt reasoning far better than I ever could.

Grays are uncomfortable Sarge, and folks like the identifiability of blacks and whites, so when you or I criticize the acts of rogue as*wipes attempting to dissolve parts of our Constitution to fight terrorism (or gain political & economic power, more like) they MUST see us as against our country- otherwise they must weigh the facts, and do some real thinking, and they can't have that, can they?

A co-worker of mine says his uncle came back from Iraq, he is an officer, but his assigned duty for a year was to drive civilian oil trucks from one side of the country to the other. So that proves this war isn't about oil- it's about test-drives...he's a funny guy he is.

Oh well, time to read more in my 'little Red book' I guess

Like John McClane, I love America Chrisisall

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 7:03 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
The thing is, these end runs around constitutional protections affect everyone, not just the terrorists. You might not care about your rights to privacy or due process or freedom of association. etc, etc, but I do.

I care about a lot things. I just put it in perspective, instead of demanding it be viewed in absolutes, and accusing people of being the enemy if they don‘t see things my way.

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
And here it is again. Over and over you want to pretend that those of us who are raising a fuss about this kind of shit 'hate America'. Get a clue. It's YOU we hate. And we're not going to stand by and watch you piss away our nation's most cherished values because you're afraid of your own shadow. So go ahead and accuse me of being a terrorist sympathizer. The idiocy of such a claim displays your bankrupt reasoning far better than I ever could.

That’s rich. This from the guy who just accused people who disagree with him on policy as being as much enemy as terrorists we’re at war with. And actually I didn’t say you hate America, did I? That’s something you came up with. What I said is you think the US is always wrong, which does seem to be the case.

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:12 PM

FREMDFIRMA

"And here it is again. Over and over you want to pretend that those of us who are raising a fuss about this kind of shit 'hate America'. Get a clue. It's YOU we hate. And we're not going to stand by and watch you piss away our nation's most cherished values because you're afraid of your own shadow. So go ahead and accuse me of being a terrorist sympathizer. The idiocy of such a claim displays your bankrupt reasoning far better than I ever could."

Seconded.

I was gonna say that, and be a lot less polite about it, but since Sarge beat me to the punch here, I will leave it at that.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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