Israelis Create Warsaw Ghetto in Gaza by SignyM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Thanks CTS.

Finn, I don't usually stoop to personal commentary, but... are you listening to yourself? Excusing occupation, murder, terrorism... I'm grown up enough to know that it's bad whenever anyone does it. Are you?

I’m certainly grown up enough to know that such situations are never as black and white as you want them to be. I’m not going to excuse murder or terrorism, which is precisely what people do when they unfairly criticize Israel, while hand waving the murderous actions of groups like Hamas or Hezbollah. I recognize the right of a nation to defend it’s people and its borders from terrorist groups and belligerent militias, that doesn‘t mean I condone murder or terrorism; it means I don‘t.

Occupation is, however, sometimes excusable.

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Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:35 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
That doesn‘t mean I condone murder or terrorism; it means I don‘t.

Then why do you excuse it?

And Finn, after having rejected news stories, Israeli internal protests, history, and a whole bunch of other information we also have a lot of UN resolutions to back up our claims. Now, as I recall, you were all twisted about Saddam ignoring all kinds of UN resolutions. Is it "different" when Israel does the same? If it is, HOW?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
And Finn, we also have a lot of UN resolutions to back up our claims. Now, as I recall, you were all twisted about Saddam ignoring all kinds of UN resolutions. Is it "different" when Israel does the same? If it is, HOW?

It’s not the same thing. First of all Israel is more in compliance with UN resolutions then the Palestinian territories, which to my understanding have never even pretended to care what the UN resolution say. And most of these resolution are completely unworkable, unless both sides agree to comply simultaneous. Most importantly, UN resolution condemning Israel were not made under Chapter 7 of the UN charter, which would make them legally binding. In other words, UN resolution made against Israel so far have been strong suggestions, not international law. On the other hand, UN resolutions condemning Iraq were made under Chapter 7 and were legally binding under international law. So if the UN makes a resolutions that is legally binding, which is blatantly ignored, as in the case of Iraq, it seriously erodes the credibility of the UN, but that can’t be said if the UN resolutions are were never intended to be legally binding, as in the case of Israel and the Palestinian territories.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
That doesn‘t mean I condone murder or terrorism; it means I don‘t.
Then why do you excuse it?

Maybe you should look up the word "condone."

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Thursday, January 24, 2008 8:24 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Finn, really... Is this what you do in place of substantive discussion? Split hairs, quibble over wording (it's not apartheid 'cause that's about race), ignore 360 degree testimony, and in general fail to grapple with the real issues?

Palestinians have real grievances. Their land ... homes, olive groves, orchards, and businesses... were given away by Britain, then successively taken away by the Israelis by further and further occupation. The Palestinians are killed, their homes bulldozed, trade and economy completely controlled by Israel, they have a 70% unemployment rate...

I'm not excusing their terrorist activities, but Israel is doing the same thing and with much greater firepower. Until people recognize that Israel not the totally innocent victim (Oh poor us! Everybody hates Jews!) the problems will never be solved.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, January 24, 2008 8:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn, really... Is this what you do in place of substantive discussion? Split hairs, quibble over wording (it's not apartheid 'cause that's about race), ignore 360 degree testimony, and in general fail to grapple with the real issues?

I haven’t ignored any issues or split any hairs. The apartheid nonsense is another attempt to load the argument against Israel, because it’s easier to condemn a nation if you can accuse them of practicing racism, but in fact Israel’s actions are taken in furtherance of security not racism. So in reality, the apartheid stuff is an attempt to ignore the real issues in favor of disingenuous condemnation of Israel.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Palestinians have real grievances. Their land ... homes, olive groves, orchards, and businesses... were given away by Britain, then successively taken away by the Israelis by further and further occupation. The Palestinians are killed, their homes bulldozed, trade and economy completely controlled by Israel, they have a 70% unemployment rate...

Israelis have real grievances too. They have been invaded numerous times by Arab nations, had their children blown up in the streets by suicide bombers, had rockets dropped on their homes by people who have stated it as their mission to enact the next Holocaust. There are very few instances of either Britain or Israel actually taking land from Palestinians and most of the grievances of the Palestinians begin and end with their corrupt leadership and violence they insist on pursuing. Israel wants peace and there’s every reason to believe that once that peace is achieved lives for everyone in Israel and the disputed territories will drastically improve, but the Palestinian leadership does not want peace. Wrongs have been committed by both sides, but in the end the central issue is that the Palestinian leadership does not want peace. It doesn’t matter how unfairly you criticize Israel (or hate Jews if that’s your shtick), there isn’t much Israel can do for the Palestinian people in the disputed territories, until the Palestinian leadership seeks peace in good faith.

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Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:18 PM

BADKARMA00

I'm not jewish, nor do I belong to the cults that believe we, as Christians, somehow owe some sort of divine debt to the modern nation of Israel.

I would point out, however, that Israel is a nation, recognized by the UN. Some people have posted that Israel 'has no right to exist'. That sounds remarkably similar to how some mulsims see it.

I fail to see where anyone one person, or group of persons, has the right to state that another has no right to exist.

If I were Israel, I would have destroyed my enemies right after they invaded in 1967, had I had the ability to do so. These are nations that harbor terrorists who are sworn to destroy them.

If someone vows to destroy me, and my family, then you can bet that I won't wait for a response from the Useless Nincompoops ( UN

) before moving to protect me and mine.

The arguments over whether Israel owes the Palestinians something, or has a right to exist, is moot in any case. They DO exist. And they are surrounded by enemies who don't like that, and have vowed to do something about it.

It strikes me as ironic that certain people, and groups of people, can so blithely condemn Israel for trying to protect it's people, while excusing the actions of the groups who send women and children wired with explosives to kill other women and children as 'justified' or 'understandable'.

It's neither.

But then, what do I know?

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 4:19 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
in furtherance of security not racism

Bullshit. When you punish an entire civilian population that's not for security purposes. It may not be based on "race"... technically avoiding the term "racism" (which I'm sure you'll point out)... so let's call it "collective ethnic punishment".

Quote:
Israelis have real grievances too. They have been invaded numerous times by Arab nations, had their children blown up in the streets by suicide bombers, had rockets dropped on their homes by people who have stated it as their mission to enact the next Holocaust.

But any solution has to address the grievances on BOTH sides. And right now, Israel is pretty damn comfortable compared to the Palestinians, who they've bottled up economically and physically. (They control movement in and out, electricity, water, sewage, goods movement... the parallel to the Warsaw ghetto is striking.)

Quote:
There are very few instances of either Britain or Israel actually taking land from Palestinians

How in heaven's name do you justify THAT statement? Tell me about those "very few times" in detail, okay?

Quote:
there isn’t much Israel can do for the Palestinian people in the disputed territories, until the Palestinian leadership seeks peace in good faith.

Right now Israel has the whip hand. Since they have the most power, they have the most responsibility for doing things differently. For example, if they stopped collectively bottling up and punishing all Palestinians ... making ALL Palestinians their enemy... they might get somewhere.

They remind me very much of us. We have the biggest army, we spend more on military than the rest of the world combined and yet we go into a panic over 911 and invade a nation that had nothing to do with that in the first place. It just remind me of a gorilla gibbering in fear and smashing a stick because it looks like a snake. Irrational.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 4:29 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
But then, what do I know?

Er... nothing? Saying "Israel" has no right to exist is very different from saying that "Jews" have no right to exist. At the time of the Palestine Mandate, Jews represented a tiny minority in a basically Arab Muslim area, along with a Christian minority. As Frem has pointed out earlier, Arabs used to shelter Jews from the rapacity of Xtian Crusades, the whole area could have become a mixed-population state without specifically setting aside land for "the Jews". During that time, Britain allowed "the Jews" to represent themselves as a nation, while specifically prohibiting Arabs from representing themselves as a nation. Well, that didn't seem fair to the residents of that area who were... as I've already pointed out... overwhelmingly Arab. And everything has gown downhill since then.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 4:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
in furtherance of security not racism
Bullshit. When you punish an entire civilian population that's not for security purposes. It may not be based on "race"... technically avoiding the term "racism" (which I'm sure you'll point out)... so let's call it "collective ethnic punishment".

No. Palestinians aren’t being punished for their ethnicity. Palestinian-Israeli conflict has nothing to do with race or ethnicity, and I’m not interested in these attempts to load the argument.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But any solution has to address the grievances on BOTH sides. And right now, Israel is pretty damn comfortable compared to the Palestinians, who they've bottled up economically and physically. (They control movement in and out, electricity, water, sewage, goods movement... the parallel to the Warsaw ghetto is striking.)

If in order to avoid invasion, Israel must treat the disputed territories as if they were “states” with their own government, then no, Israel does not have to treat both grievances separately, but should look to the security of it's own people first, before taking care of "foreign" states. It is the responsibly of the Palestinian interim government to see to the grievances of its people. This is a double standard. You demand that the disputed territories are “Palestinian land” and that Israel should treat them as a "foreign" state, but Israel must take full responsibility for the people in those territories. Either Israel annexes the disputed territory and removes the Palestinian government or the Palestinian government is responsible for it’s people.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
There are very few instances of either Britain or Israel actually taking land from Palestinians
How in heaven's name do you justify THAT statement? Tell me about those "very few times" in detail, okay?

The real question is how do you justify blaming Israel for a few isolated events, which is precisely the tactic used by many unfair critics of Israel. You point to a few IDF soldiers who commit murder and say this is what Israel does. You point to a few cases in which armed bandits forced Palestinian farmers off their land and say this is Israeli policy. There are rotten soldiers and bandits in every nation - and in Israel which has dealt with multiple wars and lawlessness - this kind of thing certainly happens, but it is not the policy of the Israeli government or the standard practice.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Right now Israel has the whip hand. Since they have the most power, they have the most responsibility for doing things differently. For example, if they stopped collectively bottling up and punishing all Palestinians ... making ALL Palestinians their enemy... they might get somewhere.

Oh, you mean like all the years of peace before Israel built the wall. The problem of getting somewhere is completely constrained by when the Palestinian leadership decides they want peace, and as long as they live as Mafia Dons because of the lack of peace, they won’t want peace, wall or no wall.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 5:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Bottled up Gaza, blocked FOOD and FUEL to everyone.
Left the entire population of Gaza without sewage and water, and reduced electricity
Militarily attacked in eight ground incursions (using tanks), 15 air strikes and 10 missile launches.
Killed 42 Palestinians and injured 117.

Meanwhile, Hamas:
Launched 150 rocket attacks against Israel
Injured 11 Israelis.

So... how does that make this "better" for Israel?

From the same article

Much of this condemnation was based on a lie propagated by Hamas and repeated at the UN. The South African ambassador claimed, for example, "1.5 million people had been left without water, electricity and basic sewage" in Gaza. In fact, the supply of electricity to Gaza from the Israeli and Egyptian power grids (124 megawatts and 17 megawatts, respectively) has continued uninterrupted. This supply represents about 75 percent of Gaza's electricity needs. The remaining 25% is from a power plant in Gaza that is run by fuel supplied by Israel. Since only some of Gaza's fuel supply was cut by Israel, Hamas could have kept running that plant as well, but chose to shut it down as a propaganda stunt.

If the Palestinians are completely sealed up and lacking in food and fuel, where do all of the damn rockets come from? Maybe there is a clue in the same article,

It is telling that the one country that could have prevented this "cycle of violence" - that is both Hamas's aggression and Israel's measures to defend itself - was not mentioned in the debate. That country was Egypt, which even had the temerity to join the chorus against what it called Israel's "brutal punitive measures."

The moment Hamas took over Gaza in June, Egypt could have tightly controlled its border and prevented tons of weaponry, including sophisticated rockets, from entering the Strip. It could have closed the revolving door for terrorists leaving for training and returning to join Hamas's increasingly dangerous army. It did not.

Now, as a result of its propaganda victory, Hamas has allowed itself to blow up the Egyptian border fence, while Egypt ignores its signed deals with Israel and does nothing to close or even monitor the border. Among the ordinary Palestinians streaming through to buy cheaper goods on the Egyptian side, we can be sure Hamas is bringing in more weapons, money and terrorists. By playing into Hamas's hands, failing to punish aggression, and refusing to hold Egypt responsible for stopping the weapons buildup, the UN is sowing the seeds of the next war and strengthening the forces it claims to wish to isolate. And it is doing this in the name of peace and humanitarian law - while producing the exact opposite.

So even countries with signed treaties with Israel cannot be trusted to hold up their end of the bargain. Do you think instances like this leave Israel trusting her neighbours more or less?

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Friday, January 25, 2008 5:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1201070775918&pagename=JPos
t%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Just a little something to try help balance the anti-Israel links supplied thus far.

Interesting, BDM, thanks...but this one bit:

Quote:
Hamas has allowed itself to blow up the Egyptian border fence, while Egypt ignores its signed deals with Israel and does nothing to close or even monitor the border. Among the ordinary Palestinians streaming through to buy cheaper goods on the Egyptian side,

Come on, if this doesn't absolutely scream self-serving spin, then I don't know what does. Not that I don't hear it in anti-Israeli Government stuff too, I just want to say that we never seem to get a 100% true picture from ANY source.

Moderate Chrisisall

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Friday, January 25, 2008 6:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

If the Palestinians are completely sealed up and lacking in food and fuel, where do all of the damn rockets come from?

That tells me how corrupt the Palestine 'leadership' is.
And once again, the poor average people are oppressed- by BOTH sides.

GrrrrChrisisall

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Friday, January 25, 2008 6:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Just because you call yourself a Human Rights Organization or been in the IDF doesn’t mean you know what you’re talking about or have an honest or fair assessment. In fact, some of these people become polarized because of the traumatic things they’ve seen or done, and it becomes more difficult for them to view the situation with a fair or impartial perspective.

There is no such thing as an impartial perspective, Finn. The fact that you dismiss what peeps actually experience because, well, they experienced it, say a lot about your 'impartial' view

.
But thanks for giving me you perspective on the whole mess, it was genuinely helpful.

Appreciative Chrisisall

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Friday, January 25, 2008 6:27 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

GAZA:

Quote:
[Israel still controls Gazan borders, airspace and territorial waters. The Israeli human rights organization B'tselem said in November 2006 that "the broad scope of Israeli control in the Gaza Strip creates a strong case for the claim that Israel's occupation of the Gaza Strip continue." [4] University of London, School of Oriental and African Studies, law professor Iain Scobbie noted in 2006 that "Israel retains absolute authority over Gaza’s airspace and territorial sea. It is manifestly exercising governmental authority in these areas.... it is clear that Israeli withdrawal of land forces did not terminate occupation." ... Prior to Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, the United States considered the Gaza Strip to be an Israel-occupied territory. Following the withdrawal, no official US government statement has been made on the status of the Strip. However, the CIA World Factbook (2007)... continues to list the Gaza Strip as an Israeli-occupied territory.

BDN Rockets can be stored for a long time. Food, fuel, water, and access to sewage treatment are critical items. Having rockets doesn't mean having everything else. That has got to be the stupidest argument I've ever heard from you.

Let me try and put this into a realistic scale: Lets say that a rich kid (I'll call him Rich Kid) gets beat up on campus by a poor kid with an ax to grind (called, unimaginatively, Poor Kid). Rich Kid's jaw gets busted and his kuckles scraped. So Rich Kid and his Dad go to Poor Kid's neighborhood. They vandalize about 1000 homes, torch those that they think belong to Poor Kid's relatives, and beat up 14 of what they think are Poor Kid's friends, four of them to death. That's about the scale of what's been happening between Israel and Gaza, with (to make this pellucidly clear) Israel being the Rich Kid.

At some point you stop pumping your fist "YES!!!" at Rich Kid's response because at some point you realize that it's no longer about defense, it's pathological.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 6:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Interesting, BDM, thanks...but this one bit:
Quote:
Hamas has allowed itself to blow up the Egyptian border fence, while Egypt ignores its signed deals with Israel and does nothing to close or even monitor the border. Among the ordinary Palestinians streaming through to buy cheaper goods on the Egyptian side,

Come on, if this doesn't absolutely scream self-serving spin, then I don't know what does. Not that I don't hear it in anti-Israeli Government stuff too, I just want to say that we never seem to get a 100% true picture from ANY source.

Krisisall,
What about the quote above is spin? Did the wall not blow up? Did it blow itself up? Did Egypt try to control the border?

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Friday, January 25, 2008 6:53 AM

YELLOWJACKET

The Israeli/Palestinian matter is a weighty one, polarized by strong opinion and fraught with a history of confrontation, mistrust and mistakes. Having lived there twice I can tell you that the land is a beautiful one, but pocked with unseen pitfalls like a political and social minefield. I have personally witnessed mistakes from both sides of what used to be a only symbolic fence, now a much more literal one. It's a heartbreaking country to live in, but as much as it fails in some places it works in others.

Take Bethlehem for instance. When I lived there in 1987 you could see Bethlehem from the hillside of Ramat Rachel. Bethlehem was a small, but sprawling community of modest homes and elegant churches of all religions. Now, it looks like a maximum security prison. The contrast is so utterly horrifying that it defies words. You cannot imagine such a thing until you are standing in the shadow of it.

Then there's Haifa. It's a cosmopolitan city populated by Jews, Christians and Muslims all living and working together. My Jewish and Muslim friends both agree that Haifa works. Somehow, despite years of trying and failing everywhere else, Haifa works. There is a calm there that exists nowhere else in that war torn country.

Hate has a way of feeding upon itself and others generation to generation. I have talked with very rational people who lose all sense of self and reason when they try to come to an understanding about Israel and Palestine. There are of course numerous reasons why people fight so passionately about the subject. Some good reasons, some bad, and some desperate and necessary. Having lived there I can tell you, you never stop loving the place. You never stop hoping that a rational and mutually beneficial compromise will solve the problem once and for all.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 6:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
BDN Rockets can be stored for a long time. Food, fuel, water, and access to sewage treatment are critical items. Having rockets doesn't mean having everything else. That has got to be the stupidest argument I've ever heard from you.

Perhaps if food, fuel, and water were stored instead of rockets the Palestinians would be better off, as well as the Israelis.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 6:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

At some point you stop pumping your fist "YES!!!" at Rich Kid's response because at some point you realize that it's no longer about defense

Devil's Advocate for a second, Signy.
Why don't Hamas send rockets into the walls, or into tanks- why hit where civilians are? This would seem to support Finn's idea that corrupt warlords want to see no end to the struggle.

Seeking Chrisisall

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Friday, January 25, 2008 7:00 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I DID say that Poor Kid has an ax to grind. What I'm pointing out is Israel's disproportionate response.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 7:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by yellowjacket:
Having lived there I can tell you, you never stop loving the place. You never stop hoping that a rational and mutually beneficial compromise will solve the problem once and for all.

Thanks for that YJ, I hope for that too.

Chrisisall

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Friday, January 25, 2008 7:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

What about the quote above is spin? Did the wall not blow up? Did it blow itself up? Did Egypt try to control the border?

I don't know if I should allow myself to respond to you...I'll let you know after my trip to Canada where I will purchase cheaper water to bring home & drink....

isall

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Friday, January 25, 2008 7:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I DID say that Poor Kid has an ax to grind. What I'm pointing out is Israel's disproportionate response.

I see nothing wrong with vapourizing anyone sending an explosive device into a crowd of civilians. I see everything wrong with punishing innocents for the heinous acts of the few.
But that's how it's taught in school, eh?
"This entire class has detention; I'll have NO MORE HUMMING IN MY HOMEROOM!!!!"

Teach us inequity youngisall

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Friday, January 25, 2008 8:49 AM

BADKARMA00

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But then, what do I know?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Er... nothing? Saying "Israel" has no right to

--------------------
Aww, SignyM you're so cute with your little words. Makes you feel all grown up I bet, don't it?

And, believe it or not, I'm well aware of the difference between "israel" and "jews", too, lol.

My point was that as a recognized nation, saying that they have no right to exist is moot.

But, just keep on saying it, like Dorthy in WoO, and maybe the world will turn out like you want it.

Bad_karma

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Friday, January 25, 2008 9:06 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm gonna repeat myself

Let me try and put this into a realistic scale: Lets say that a rich kid (I'll call him Rich Kid) gets beat up on campus by a poor kid with an ax to grind (called, unimaginatively, Poor Kid). Rich Kid's jaw gets busted and his kuckles scraped. So Rich Kid and his Dad go to Poor Kid's neighborhood. They vandalize about 1000 homes, torch those that they think belong to Poor Kid's relatives, and beat up 14 of what they think are Poor Kid's friends, four of them to death. That's about the scale of what's been happening between Israel and Gaza, with (to make this pellucidly clear) Israel being the Rich Kid.

At some point you stop pumping your fist "YES!!!" at Rich Kid's response because at some point you realize that it's no longer about defense, it's pathological.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 10:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm gonna repeat myself

Let me try and put this into a realistic scale: Lets say that a rich kid (I'll call him Rich Kid) gets beat up on campus by a poor kid with an ax to grind (called, unimaginatively, Poor Kid). Rich Kid's jaw gets busted and his kuckles scraped. So Rich Kid and his Dad go to Poor Kid's neighborhood. They vandalize about 1000 homes, torch those that they think belong to Poor Kid's relatives, and beat up 14 of what they think are Poor Kid's friends, four of them to death. That's about the scale of what's been happening between Israel and Gaza, with (to make this pellucidly clear) Israel being the Rich Kid.

At some point you stop pumping your fist "YES!!!" at Rich Kid's response because at some point you realize that it's no longer about defense, it's pathological.

So is it proportionate response you are looking for?
From now on, Hamas will fire rockets from Palestine into Israel with no thought to where they land. Israel will fire rockets into the West Bank and Gaza from Israel with no thought to where they land. If Hamas detonates a human-bomb in an Israeli market, An IDF member straps on the dynamite and heads towards Palestinian shoppers. Does this seem like a more viable solution to you?

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Friday, January 25, 2008 10:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I don't know if I should allow myself to respond to you...I'll let you know after my trip to Canada where I will purchase cheaper water to bring home & drink....

And why is water so expensive where you live?

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Friday, January 25, 2008 11:14 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Does this seem like a more viable solution to you?

yes.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 12:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Does this seem like a more viable solution to you?
yes.

So what's really bothering you is not the plight of the Palestinians, just that not enough Jews are dying?

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Friday, January 25, 2008 12:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I don't know if I should allow myself to respond to you...I'll let you know after my trip to Canada where I will purchase cheaper water to bring home & drink....

And why is water so expensive where you live?

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Friday, January 25, 2008 12:31 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
So what's really bothering you is not the plight of the Palestinians, just that not enough Jews are dying?

Huh. Did you see that anywhere in my post?

No?

Then you're just being a troll and of no further interest.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 12:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Then you're just being a troll and of no further interest.

Repetative expired-equine impacts...

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Friday, January 25, 2008 1:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
So what's really bothering you is not the plight of the Palestinians, just that not enough Jews are dying?
Huh. Did you see that anywhere in my post?

No?

Then you're just being a troll and of no further interest.

The wheels started turning in my head when you mentioned the following;

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So IDF (Israel Defense Force):
Bottled up Gaza, blocked FOOD and FUEL to everyone.
Left the entire population of Gaza without sewage and water, and reduced electricity.
Militarily attacked in eight ground incursions (using tanks), 15 air strikes and 10 missile launches.
Killed 42 Palestinians and injured 117.

Meanwhile, Hamas:
Launched 150 rocket attacks against Israel
Injured 11 Israelis.

Then you brought up disproportionate response;

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I DID say that Poor Kid has an ax to grind. What I'm pointing out is Israel's disproportionate response.

Then there was this little gem;

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Does this seem like a more viable solution to you?
yes.

So in your opinion, you think disproportionate response by Israel is to blame for all Palestinian hardships. How do you propose to redress this? I can see two ways myself. Israel responds with the same tactics as Hamas (your choice) or Hamas makes up ground militarily with the IDF and responds in kind. Either way this will only serve to increase Jewish (as well as Palestinian) deaths hence my last question to you.

p.s. why is it that when someone questions another Poster or challenges their ideas, they are branded as a troll?

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Friday, January 25, 2008 1:12 PM

WALKERHOUND

Quote:
I see nothing wrong with vapourizing anyone sending an explosive device into a crowd of civilians. I see everything wrong with punishing innocents for the heinous acts of the few.

This would be a profound statement. If you could couple it with a method to tell the heinous few from the innocents. Preferably one that's quick easy and most of all full proof (perhaps the warring of some sort of hat could be requested).

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Friday, January 25, 2008 1:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I don't know if I should allow myself to respond to you...I'll let you know after my trip to Canada where I will purchase cheaper water to bring home & drink....

And why is water so expensive where you live?

Nice reasoned rebuttal as always.
Please have patience with my ignorant self while I try to explain my position.
During the last elections, Hamas beat out Fatah as Hamas ran on a platform of improving Palestinian conditions. While Fatah was not doing such a bang up job, at least they are not advocating a Jewish genocide. Now instead of improving conditions, Hamas is too busy fighting both Fatah and Israel. Foreign aid, which is the lifeblood of the Palestinian territories, was drastically reduced because of Hamas' terrorist designation. Daily rocket attacks into Israel made the IDF toughen up security at border crossings to prevent the flow of weapons into terrorists hands. All of this leads to poorer conditions for the average Palestinian which I think can be laid at the feet of Hamas not Israel.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 1:35 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

If the Israelis only enagaed in a proportionate response that would represent fewer Palestinian deaths, and not affect the number of Israeli deaths at all.

And maybe by de-escalating there would be an opportunity for dialogue.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 1:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
So what's really bothering you is not the plight of the Palestinians, just that not enough Jews are dying?
Huh. Did you see that anywhere in my post?

No?

Then you're just being a troll and of no further interest.

Actually given the absurdity of your opinion on this issue, it’s a perfectly reasonable question. Basically what you want, by your own admission, is for every poor innocent Israeli child killed by a Hamas suicide bomber, you want a poor innocent Palestinian child killed by an Israeli suicide bomber and vice versa. How does this help Palestinians? It doesn’t, in fact, it makes it far worse for them. It does nothing more then further the agenda of Palestinian terrorists.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 2:10 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
How does this help Palestinians? It doesn’t, in fact, it makes it far worse for them. It does nothing more then further the agenda of Palestinian terrorists.

Oh yeah... like a lot MORE innocent Palestinians aren't geting killed now? *snark on* look up the term "disproportionate" *snark off*

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 2:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
How does this help Palestinians? It doesn’t, in fact, it makes it far worse for them. It does nothing more then further the agenda of Palestinian terrorists.
Oh yeah... like a lot MORE innocent Palestinians aren't geting killed now? *snark on* look up the term "disproportionate" *snark off*

I’m aware of what the term “disproportionate force” means, and it doesn’t mean what you think it does. And what you are suggesting is not only excusing murder and terrorism, but promoting it. You’re actually saying that the Israelis should respond to terrorism with terrorism, indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians with indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians, an eye for an eye. It would result in far more deaths on both sides, as each side began targeting not only armed soldiers, but their families and children. It would result in an escalation to indiscriminate mass murder across the board.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 2:34 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"You’re actually saying that the Israelis should respond to terrorism with ... indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians ..."

And you're saying they're not ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, January 25, 2008 2:35 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You’re actually saying that the Israelis should respond to terrorism with terrorism, indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians with indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians, an eye for an eye.

Finn... they already do. Everything that I wrote in my analogy... destroying the homes of family member of suspected terrorists; disrupting the lives of everyone in the area, including blocking medical supplies and water; missile and tank attacks which kill innocent civilians... is ALREADY happening. And MORE innocent civilians are being killed than if IDF would simply grab the same number of civilians from the other side of the wall... in this case 11, and do to them exactly what happened to Israeli citizens (injure them).

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 3:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
You’re actually saying that the Israelis should respond to terrorism with terrorism, indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians with indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians, an eye for an eye.
Finn... they already do. Everything that I wrote in my analogy... destroying the homes of family member of suspected terrorists; disrupting the lives of everyone in the area, including blocking medical supplies and water; missile and tank attacks which kill innocent civilians... is ALREADY happening. And MORE innocent civilians are being killed than if IDF would simply grab the same number of civilians from the other side of the wall... in this case 11, and do to them exactly what happened to Israeli citizens (injure them).

Basically, that‘s just astoundingly naive. The IDF does not indiscriminately destroy the homes of Palestinians. They do not indiscriminately kill Palestinians. They target terrorists and militants, not innocent civilians. Now setting aside the almost certain fact that as soon as Israel started doing exactly what you suggest they should, you would start condemning them as murderers and terrorists, no different then you‘re doing now, it wouldn’t have the effect you are suggesting. Indiscriminately killing 11 innocent Palestinians would not stop the hundreds of others Palestinians from being killed when they fire on the IDF or happen to be used as a human shield by Palestinians attacking the IDF. In fact, it would have the opposite effect, when the family of those 11 indiscriminate Palestinians turn militant and start attacking the IDF soldiers.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 3:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"You’re actually saying that the Israelis should respond to terrorism with ... indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians ..."

And you're saying they're not ?

It is a known terrorist tactic to conduct missile strikes to civilian targets from civilian targets. How do you stop terrorists from operating when they are imbedded within the civilian population? Do you allow rocket attacks to go unanswered? Do you not try find and destroy bomb making sites?

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Friday, January 25, 2008 3:18 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
killing 11 innocent Palestinians

Killing? Who said anything about killing? Hamas launched 150 rockets, wounding 11 Israelis. So, rough them up, maybe.

Quote:
They do not indiscriminately kill Palestinians.

They most certainly do.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 3:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
killing 11 innocent Palestinians
Killing? Who said anything about killing? Hamas launched 150 rockets, wounding 11 Israelis. So, rough them up, maybe.

God, you’re naive and uninformed. There have been over a thousand Israelis killed in the al-Aqsa Intifada, most of them by suicide bombers and rockets against soft (civilian) targets. And about 4000 Palestinians are killed when they attack IDF, largely from civilian embedded positions. So if, on top of defending themselves, the IDF also summarily executes ~800-900 innocent Palestinian civilians in retribution for the ~800-900 innocent Israeli civilian deaths, that’s about a thousand extra militants to add to the next Intifada, which translates into about 2000 extra Palestinian deaths, half of them innocent human shields. Yeah, the Palestinians are certain to make out like bandits with this deal.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 3:47 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm just refering to the "latest round" of violence between Israel and Gaza. But if you've got facts and figures, provide the links. 'Cause my link says otherwise.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4294502.stm

Quote:
3,218 killed by Israeli security forces in the West Bank and Gaza including 657 aged under 18, 187 killed in extrajudicial executions and 296 (including at least 29 aged under 18) killed in the course of assassination operations. 444 civilians killed in Israel

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 4:03 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

strangely, the link doesn't always work. Here's the article in ful:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/42945

Quote:
The five years of the Palestinian intifada have cost more than 4,000 lives. Btselem, an Israeli human rights group, has been tracking casualty figures on both sides.
Most of the statistics cover the period from 29 September 2000 to 15 September 2005.

PALESTINIANS KILLED BY ISRAELIS
3,218 killed by Israeli security forces in the West Bank and Gaza including 657 aged under 18, 187 killed in extrajudicial executions and 296 (including at least 29 aged under 18) killed in the course of assassination operations.
56 killed by security forces in Israel including one aged under 18
41 killed by Israeli citizens in the West Bank and Gaza including at least three aged under 18
{ETA TOTAL: 3500}

ISRAELIS KILLED BY PALESTINIANS
444 civilians killed in Israel including 80 aged under 18
223 civilians killed in the West Bank and Gaza Strip including 37 aged under 18
221 Israeli security forces killed in West Bank and Gaza
84 Israeli security forces killed in Israel

{ETA TOTAL: 971}

PALESTINIANS KILLED BY PALESTINIANS

112 killed by Palestinian civilians on suspicion of collaborating
50 killed by Palestinians in other circumstances

FOREIGN CITIZENS
32 foreign citizens (including at least two aged under 18) were killed by Palestinians in Israel
10 foreign citizens were killed by Israeli security forces in the West Bank and Gaza
15 foreign citizens were killed by Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza
Killings by foreign citizens
3 Israeli civilians were killed by foreign citizens (for September 2000 to September 2004)

PALESTINIAN CITIZENS OF ISRAEL
(for September 2000 to September 2004)
Palestinian citizens of Israel killed:
13 Palestinian citizens of Israel were killed in Israel by the Israeli police and border police.
4 Palestinian citizens of Israel were killed by Israeli security forces in the West Bank and Gaza Strip

Killings by Palestinian citizens of Israel
(for September 2000 to September 2004)
3 Israeli citizens were killed in Israel by Palestinian citizens of Israel
1 member of the Israeli security forces was killed in Israel by a Palestinian citizen of Israel

The above figures do not include:
Palestinians who died after medical treatment was delayed due to restrictions of movement
Palestinians killed by an explosive device that they set or was on their person
12 Palestinian citizens of Israel killed within Israel by the Israeli police in October 2000
One Jewish Israeli citizen killed within Israel by a Palestinian Israeli citizen in October 2000
Two Jewish Israeli citizens and one member of the Israeli security forces, killed by a Palestinian citizen of Israel in Nahariya in September 2001
Four Palestinian citizens of Israel killed by Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) gunfire in the West Bank and Gaza
One Palestinian citizen of Israel killed by Border Police gunfire within Israel in July 2003
Five Palestinian citizens of Israel killed by an absconded IDF soldier on a bus in Shfaram, within Israel, in August 2005 and the shooting soldier, beaten to death by Palestinian citizens of Israel

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 4:06 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Better yet, just go to Btselem directly for the latest figures

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 4:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm just refering to the "latest round" of violence between Israel and Gaza. But if you've got facts and figures, provide the links. 'Cause my link says otherwise.

Well this has been going on for a lot longer then just the latest round and it will continue going on, and if Israel starts indiscriminately killing Palestinian civilians for retribution, it will go on even longer. As far as the numbers go, they are from memory. If you have links that say 3200 instead of 4000 fine (although your figures only go to 2005). It doesn’t change my point.

And here’s a real nugget of genius in your little innocent Palestinian retribution killings strategy. Terrorists are notoriously adaptive, and some of them will stop blowing themselves up and start setting bombs. When they go off, you’ll go kill a bunch of Palestinians for retribution, while the real bad-guys set up for your next round of retribution killings, knowing that as long as your focusing on indiscriminately killing innocent Palestinians, you’ll not be targeting the guys actually killing Israelis. You’ll basically create an environment in which the real masterminds are free to operate at will.

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Friday, January 25, 2008 7:24 PM