Being human = Mental illness ? by Fremdfirma

I've suspected for a long time that teenaged rebellion is a kind of preprogrammed "time to leave the nest" response. That a point is reached where even in the most enlightened families you just want to be out of there and every rule your parents set, no matter how well intentioned seems purposefully set to piss you off.

It's nature's way of saying, get out and make your own life.

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Saturday, February 9, 2008 4:35 PM

Ya know, my mom was some kinda smart. she invented a cure for this before it was invented! It was called a leather belt, applied liberally to the backside of the patient until the symptoms vanished.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Saturday, February 9, 2008 4:40 PM

ERIC

My favorite part of this article:

Quote:
Two ways of subduing defiance are to criminalize it and to pathologize it, and U.S. history is replete with examples of both. In the same era that John Adams' Sedition Act criminalized criticism of U.S. governmental policy, Dr. Benjamin Rush, the father of American psychiatry (his image adorns the APA seal), pathologized anti-authoritarianism. Rush diagnosed those rebelling against a centralized federal authority as having an "excess of the passion for liberty" that "constituted a form of insanity." He labeled this illness "anarchia."

Throughout American history, both direct and indirect resistance to authority has been diseased. In an 1851 article in the New Orleans Medical and Surgical Journal, Louisiana physician Samuel Cartwright reported his discovery of "drapetomania," the disease that caused slaves to flee captivity. Cartwright also reported his discovery of "dysaesthesia aethiopis," the disease that caused slaves to pay insufficient attention to the master's needs. Early versions of ODD and ADHD?

I didn't really mean to post anything, I just forgot to take my restless keyboard syndrome medication

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Saturday, February 9, 2008 5:23 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Give me my pills so I can be docile and mindless and focus on what my Masters say. Please, please Masters.... take away my individuality and free will and give me Prozac!

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, February 9, 2008 7:29 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Okay. I'm scared for the future now. "Going stupid" was the only way I survived teenage back in the 60's. I'd hate to think that current-generation Geezer analogues don't have that option anynore.

Where do I sign up for the opposition?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 5:37 AM

It does seem like emotional problems in young people are more common than when I was young. Drugging them and turning them into Zombies is definitely not helping the problem. I think part of the problem is the elimination of physical activity. There's nothing better for mental health than hard physical exercise. We need to bring back the strenuous physical education programs that we had when I was growing up.

There also might be something to the concept of information overload. A book ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Shock) I read years ago speculated that we are all being made crazy by the overwhelming amount of info our brains have to process in modern times.

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 6:46 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Yes and no.

I know some people who are seriously ADHD... my girl was one of them... and I'll tell you, these people CAN'T keep their minds on anything for more than a few seconds at a time. It frustrates THEM.

Brain development is an incredibly complex mechanism, and anything can make it go wrong. I can name you several common pollutants (PCB, phthalates, lead, perchlorate, mercury) that have profound effect on brain development and behavior, and several nutrients (omega-3 oils, B12, zinc) that if missing create similar problems. Autism, cerebral palsy and mental retardation can be flagged AT BIRTH by blood concentrations of vasoactive intestinal peptide (VIP). Children with ADHD develop, on the average, smaller brains that children who don't have ADHD or children with ADHD who're treated with ritalin.

We may be creating a lot of our own problems by messing with brain development in utero, stimulating kids with lots and lots of visual input (TV, video games) with no physical release (requiring kids to sit still for long periods of time while listening to someone drone on and on about crap), and then attempting to medicate our way out of it. I've aid for years that my generation was the last of the free-range children and I think the following generations are unlucky compared to mine.

I think we should think long and hard before medicating kids with psychoactive drugs. But these are REAL problems that occasionally need drugs.

PS: I was one of those kids who looked out the window 99% of the time 'cause I was bored to tears. I developed a pretty good short-term audio loop because the teachers would challenge me with the snap question "What did I just say?" It used to drive them nuts when I answered. I learned very little until I got to high school and college.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:48 AM

ALLIETHORN7

Sounds like good ol' Uncle Sam wants to keep all us anarchist types drugged and docile.
Figures.
Ya kow, I always wondered why there was an icrease in mental illnesses from between my birth and now- some 17 years. For awhile now, I thought that it was because the US had gone pansy, and what once was cured by a few well deserved smacks upside the head ow requires a social worker and meds. It seems like this guy agrees with me.

-Danny

and every time I play with passion I start breaking strings,
and my voice cracks when I sing from my heart
guess that's the price I've got to pay to know that I'm alive
this melody is tearing me apart

THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!
Gott weiß ich will kein Engel sein.
http://www.myspace.com/otherrandomdude

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 8:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Children with ADHD develop, on the average, smaller brains that children who don't have ADHD or children with ADHD who're treated with ritalin.

I have always thought brain size ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?rid=neurosci.box.1833) didn't tell us much about intelligence or mental illness, when the size is within normal parameters. Is there any particular part of the brain that is smaller as this might be more meaningful.

If brain size was important then my pumkin head would make me smarter than your average Talosian.

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 8:34 AM

SERGEANTX

I'm certainly no expert on this topic, but I did raise two boys, both of whom were tagged with ADHD by public school teachers (who were also not experts on the topic). I looked closely at what was going on and talked with each of the boys about it when it was 'their turn'. I didn't see any real inability to concentrate in either one of them and I refused the schools suggestions of doping. As far as I could see, any kid who could sit through what they were being asked to sit through was abnormal.

I was warned of the dire consequences of refusing the teacher's non-expert advice. My sons were 'at-risk' of this and that ("studies have shown..."). Anyway, they did fine and are both very successfully attending college now.

ADHD is for real and I've seen some cases where treatment was a life-saver. I've also seen parents and teachers eager to find a chemical reason for their inability to connect with their kids.

The ODD thing takes it to the next level, a level many of us saw coming in the way people 'used' adhd. As usual, it's not a conspiracy of some inner cabal. It's just people acting in their own self-interest and, too frequently, taking the easy way out. Big Pharma pushes drugs. It's what they do. Raising kids isn't easy and parents are naturally attracted to anything that will make it less difficult. Governments like passive, obedient subjects and will favor any policies that create such.

To me, it's the rebellious kids who are the heroes in the equation - they're the ones equipped to break the cycle and fight the good fight. Even if they're not always 'right' in doing so, I tend to favor kids who don't automatically respect authority.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 9:30 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The largest size difference the researchers found was in the cerebellum, a brain structure just above the brainstem, which is involved in muscle tone, balance, the synchronization of muscle activity and perhaps other functions. The caudate nucleus, an area deep in the brain that is believed to serve as a relay station for information important in regulating attention and activity level, was also significantly smaller in younger children with A.D.H.D.

I'll try to find the original scientific report.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 9:34 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
[“We wanted to make sure that the differences in brain size were not because of medication treatment,” he says. “And that’s what we confirmed.”

In fact, the brains of the children who never used medication had 10 percent less white matter than those who had used medication. White matter is what determines “how quickly a nerve impulse can get from one point to another,” says Castellanos. “And that presumably then has effects on how efficiently and how effectively the brain can operate.”

Well, this is closer...
www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article_id=218391
839

This all may very well be due to a prenatal deficit of omega-3 oils. Omega-3 does seem to help afterwards.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 9:42 AM

CHRISISALL

My son was diagnosed by his teachers as having ADD, so we pulled him out of public school and sent him to a private school for the gifted where those symptoms disappeared.

BTW, I suffer from ODD.
And DSI too. (Dumb-Sh*t Intolerance)

Chrisisall, with Mal's Syndrome

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 2:43 PM

I've sometimes had the occasional twinge of OCD...

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 2:43 PM

I've sometimes had the occasional twinge of OCD...

(Posted again just in case it didn't register last time)

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 2:44 PM

I've sometimes had the occasional twinge of OCD...

(Posted again just in case it didn't register last time)

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 2:44 PM

I've sometimes had the occasional twinge of OCD...

(Posted again just in case it didn't register last time)

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 4:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
[“We wanted to make sure that the differences in brain size were not because of medication treatment,” he says. “And that’s what we confirmed.”

In fact, the brains of the children who never used medication had 10 percent less white matter than those who had used medication. White matter is what determines “how quickly a nerve impulse can get from one point to another,” says Castellanos. “And that presumably then has effects on how efficiently and how effectively the brain can operate.”
Well, this is closer...
www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article_id=218391
839

This all may very well be due to a prenatal deficit of omega-3 oils. Omega-3 does seem to help afterwards.

Thanks for the info Signym. It never occurred to me the Ritalin might have a therapeutic effect(increased brain size)on the brain. I assumed that all of the effects were psychological. I won't be so quick to dismiss the use of drugs for ADHD in the future. Looks like there's some good quality research going on in this area, hopefully we'll see some even more effective drugs(with fewer side effects)in the near future.

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 4:23 PM

Well, my thoughts on why such behavior is more common relate also in part to our changing society.

As I have mentioned before, as the gap between a childs normal, natural, human instincts, and what they are taught gets wider and wider, the chance of abnormal behaviors in response escalates radically.

Kids also have a lower tolerance for bullshit and hypocrisy than adults, and generally tend to be more vocal about it than we are, as well.

I do think depriving them of physical outlets "for their own good" is a factor, and one I had overlooked, so thanks to Kirk for bringing that one up, it might be that this is one of a childs stress relief valves.

Not so available in the inner city as all that, but I do believe schools should make whatever sports facilities are present available for recess and extend it to a more reasonable time, especially for elementary students.

In fact, I would not have such a problem with extending the school day slightly to accomodate that, and a "Free" period where a child was allowed and encouraged to use the schools resources to pursue their own interest and fascinations.

IF, they were to do two things.

#1 - Start it later, many schools start far too early, which is disruptive of a childs internal rythyms no matter what time they went to bed - they will be disoriented, cranky, dazed and unable to focus properly, and it adds a control/hostility element right up front, every single day.

#2 - Eliminate all "busywork" type homework, it's a counterproductive waste of time and a detriment - encourage projects instead, something with a directly visible benefit and allow children the ability to follow their interests and experiment.

One thing I have noticed from empirical evidence is that if you FORCE a child to read a book, and then force them to fit their interpretation and perception of it into a narrow window to avoid a bad grade - you will discourage them from reading.

My niece struggles with it, her reading and language comprehension skills are behind because of her mulish nature to automatically resist being ordered instead of asked, to do something.
(Golly-GEE, I WONDER where that genetic predisposition came from...)

I have subverted this by giving her my Harry Harrison Stainless Steel Rat collection, which she has read with pleasure, improving her skills - and for those who HAVE read it, there is a lot of social and moral introspection and commentary within - which we have discussed at length, allowing her to offer her impressions and perceptions instead of forcing someone else's on her.

Part of this issue with this girl is that she doesn't take orders well, but if anyone would ACCEPT that, they would see that she is by nature industrious and helpful - if you ask her, give her any kind of reason that makes sense to her, you'll get it done cheerfully and well even if the work itself is stressful and difficult... I have proven this, over and over, and it has seemed to get through to a few of her teachers finally.

But push it with a "Do or else" and "Cause I said so!" and she'll just lower her little head, snort and sandbag till you give up or lose your cool in pure frustration...

If there isn't time to explain just say "Trust me and I'll explain later" and IF they know you will do so, it's all good.

Children are people, they wanna know WHY they have to do certain things and they want those reasons to MAKE SENSE - you go messing with THAT concept, and replacing it with forced blind obediance, well... I don't have to sit there and explain the problems that causes down the road, does it ?

Adults tend to want the easy way out, and it takes more effort to treat children like human beings instead of pets - but it's really such a SMALL step to do so in regard to it's potential benefit.

As for the chemical/pollutant aspect, there does seem to be some viable research linking some food additives (colors, maybe?) to that kind of behavior in susceptible children, but I don't have the scientific background to make sense of it, Siggy - if you could find any of it and break it down for us laymen that would be both appreciated and very helpful.

One thing I DO have the background to discuss is how the stress and fear of our current public schools control model triggers a low level version of the fight-freeze-flight response.

Lemme explain how that works...

Say you and a buddy are driving to a friends, and discussing politics... and you hit a patch of ice and the car starts to spin.

At that moment, once the fight-freeze-flight reaction has kicked in, are you even capable of continuing the discussion ?

No.

At a low level of this type of reaction, it may well mimic the symptoms we take for ADD, if you think about it....

==-
I have to cut this short as I have just learned that my nephew has been badly, possibly critically injured, and I have to go and my not be back for a bit.

HKCav, please take over if you're available, as you understand the direction I was taking here.

-F

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 9:52 PM

There are food allergies that cause hyperactivity in some children. When my baby sister was little she was diagnosed with this problem and after a set of tests she was found to have an adverse reaction to the yellow colouring agent used in foods. We had to buy food without it (which you can at least try to do in the EU because all additives are given an E number and those are listed in teh contents.) It proved not to be easy because they add the yellow color to a lot of green foods to make the green look more vivid. We kept with it though for about a year then started to introduce small amounts back into her diet so she could build up tolerance.

We cured the hyperactivity, the PITA aspect of her personality was all her. I love my baby sister, she doesn't take BS from anyone.

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 10:06 PM

HKCAVALIER

Heya Frem,

I'm sorry, I don't know how much help I can be here (I still have a bit of a hangover from the Anarchist "discussion").

What we have here is mind-control, pure and simple.

Authoritarians don't need guns if they can pump you full of drugs. (Brave New World, anyone?) That it is still legal to prescribe habit forming drugs to minors shows that our culture still regards the child as property, an object to be turned off and on as we see fit with no thought to the longterm damage to the child's personality. Some may say this is a harsh and unfair assessment, but it is the bottom line when children "cause" trouble. It is the baseline "reality" which adults will inevitably turn to in their time of need.

The most important part of the article to my mind is here:

Quote:
While there are several reasons for behavioral disruptiveness and emotional difficulties, rebellion against an oppressive environment is one common reason that is routinely not even considered by many mental health professionals. Why? It is my experience that many mental health professionals are unaware of how extremely obedient they are to authorities. Acceptance into medical school and graduate school and achieving a Ph.D. or M.D. means jumping through many meaningless hoops, all of which require much behavioral, attentional and emotional compliance to authorities -- even disrespected ones. When compliant M.D.s and Ph.D.s begin seeing noncompliant patients, many of these doctors become anxious, sometimes even ashamed of their own excessive compliance, and this anxiety and shame can be fuel for diseasing normal human reactions.

This is the heart of the problem and as long as this is the reality of the situation the results we see will be utterly predictable and inevitable.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, February 10, 2008 10:26 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
Ya know, my mom was some kinda smart. she invented a cure for this before it was invented! It was called a leather belt, applied liberally to the backside of the patient until the symptoms vanished.

As long as adults look back with fondness at the beatings they received at the hands of those whom they turned to for love and kindness, our culture will foster abuse and intolerance.

The only thing a beating is sure to teach is deception and and a taste for revenge--more than anything else the beating teaches the child to disobey in secrecy and to take his revenge on those weaker than him or herself. A child may rise above such urges, of course, but it is by no means the beating that teaches such self-governance (all too often in such cases, the child's aggression is merely turned against him or herself in the form of shame for having such feelings--feelings that are a perfectly natural result of being abused and betrayed). Beatings teach fear and deceit, and force a child to adopt a false mask of joviality and pleasantry where there once was only terror and betrayal of trust.

Why is it wrong to beat a grown woman, but funny and evocative of nostalgia when one contemplates the beating of the child one once was?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, February 11, 2008 6:09 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Frem I hope your nephew is OK. Please please let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, February 11, 2008 6:31 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

And after THAT freeze-fight-flight moment...

I agree with you Frem and HK. I KNOW for a fact that my daughter's behavior problems have a large physical component. Her ADHD behavior was due to continuous seizure-like brain activity. (KInda hard to concentrate when you brain is getting zapped every few seconds.) Her oppositional behavior? Who knows.

I found that if I ask her to do things she will. But if I TELL her to do something, her back goes up and that's where things degenerate. Dealing with that is a source of continuous disagreement between myself and my SO, who was abused by the dad, as SO expects our girl to "DO AS SHE IS TOLD".

Also, we were given parenting lessons on how to handle ADHD-behavior non-medically. One of the things they stressed is that ADHD children are often looking for feedback to their behavior. If you only pay attention to ADHD kids when they're misbehaving, you're just perpetuating the problem. But the thing that helped the most was to present our daughter with challenges that were JUST withing her capability... but catching and holding her attention was like catching a 50 pound fish with a 5-lb line: it required a delicate touch and a constant "feel" for what going on. (I didn't want her to "learn" anything in particular as much as be able to focus, because organizing her brain around a stimulus helped reduce the seizure activity.)

But that is not only far beyond most teachers, it is... quite frankly... far beyond most parents. (I've said for a long time that 90% of kids can be raised by 90% of adults, but those last 10%s are a bear to deal with.)

I wish I could create my own school, with its own curriculum. When I has kids over I had them do fun stuff.... I would explain where various materials came from (wood comes from trees, this is what it looks like, now come back and bring me at least one thing made of wood.) What I was trying to do was get these kids to listen, move into the world around them, and think... and they had a blast. And I remember "horsing around" a lot in our neighborhood when we were kids. We played physically, and we played hard, and we made up rules to be "fair" (since some kids were older than others). Most kids never had that experience. I wish I could pass that along.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, February 11, 2008 7:36 AM

Well, HKCAVALIER, you keep thinking that. Disciplining children teaches them that there are consequences for breaking the rules. My parents did not 'beat' me, they punished me. And, by the by, I grew up with respect for others, and myself, because I was disciplined for bad and improper behavior.

As for intolerance? Intolerance of what? Unruly behavior? Criminal activity? Get a clue friend. It's the LACK of discipline that fosters your 'intolerance'.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Monday, February 11, 2008 2:01 PM

Update: Both his hands got crushed in a log-splitter, they're trying to see how much they can save.

I am steadfastly hoping my prosthetics expertise will not be required, but if it is, I'll be there for him.

I did tell him his playstation days ain't over - one way or another I'll make sure of that, give him some hope to go on, cause hope is pretty important at this point.

I'll know more in a day or two, but the sheer helplessness of being unable to do anything at this point but offer comfort is killin me...

BK - That concept, is a discussion I really don't wanna have, especially now, but I MUST put it through to you solidly and quickly, cause I am tired of seeing that line of bolus from you.

If it's so merciful and effective, why can't you do it to an adult ?

How is beating a slave, or beating your wife viewed by society today - and why is that, you think ?

Cause they're PEOPLE - look, children are people, ok.. would you beat an adult employee who misheard an instruction, COULD you do that and get away with it ?

It's the same damn thing, IF you consider them people, consider them human beings, you do not DO that to em, dammit.

The ONLY difference between raising a hand to your wife, and to your daughter, is that the law no longer considers your wife property instead of people.

Children are not pets, they are not property, they are people, human beings.

And it's damn well time we accepted that.

Effective discipline requires *earning* the respect of a child, and if you are unable to do that, why the hell *should* they listen to you ?

-F

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Monday, February 11, 2008 4:53 PM

We aren't going to agree on this Frem, so I won't offend you with my, how did you put it? bolus, anymore.

You won't be putting your opinion through to me any more than I will to you. I've seen both sides, and know that I'm right, just as you seem to know you are.

To avoid offending you further, I won't post here again, however.

On the related topic, I hope that your nephew, I think it was, makes a full recovery. I have no idea what I can do to help, but if you think of something, don't hesitate to tell me, and I'll do whatever I can.

Meantime, he'll be in my prayers:)

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Monday, February 11, 2008 8:13 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
Well, HKCAVALIER, you keep thinking that. Disciplining children teaches them that there are consequences for breaking the rules. My parents did not 'beat' me, they punished me. And, by the by, I grew up with respect for others, and myself, because I was disciplined for bad and improper behavior.

I certainly don't expect a conversation out of you, BK, but I notice here that you have to ignore the English language to believe as you do that you were not beaten with the belt, but rather "punished" with the belt, as if the physical act didn't even occur. Unless you lied in your initial post, you were beaten with a belt, BK, there is no getting around the fact.

Yours is precisely the kind of thinking that concludes that torture isn't really torture when our wise and benevolent government conducts it (Just like your wise and benevolent parent). When the good guys torture, it's punishment. When the bad guys torture it is the most repugnant evil you can think of. Does that really seem right to you?

Every discovery, every advancement, every act of genius in human history has been in part an act of rule breaking. If our founding fathers were happy little followers like you, we'd still be British citizens.

FWIW, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question: why is beating women bad, and beating utterly defenseless children good? Why must a child be beaten to understand a rule? If the child is old enough to understand the rule in the first place, surely he is old enough to be instructed rather than merely intimidated and bullied into submission?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, February 11, 2008 8:27 PM

You're a sad person HK is you can't distinguish punishment from torture. I hope you'll try and work through that.

I already said in my reply to Frem that I don't intend to keep posting on this, and I don't. I did respond to this since your comments were so sad. And you don't know me at all, or you'd know I'm nothing at all like a happy little follower.

Nor have I ever said our government is wise and benevolent, lol. If you think I have, show me where.

As to your question, I thought even you could understand something so simple as that actions, good or bad, have consequences. It really is that simple. When you do bad things, then bad things happen. Like, oh, getting a spanking.

And no, I was never beaten, never had a mark left on me anywhere, but I did learn that when I do bad things, bad things happen. As a result I grew up NOT vandalizing other's property, stealing, doing drugs, or bullying other people. And without needing 'drugs' to make me compliant, that left me a zombie. I didn't loose my free will, but rather gained an appreciation of what it means to respect others.

Funny how that happened, isn't it?

You got your way, we got ours. Ours works. You don't have to like it, or even respect it. We have the same right as well.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 6:39 AM

HKC, I think you may get further with BK if you gave him a concrete example. When one of your own kids acts out how do you personally deal with that? Do you have a real world example you can use to show us the kinds of techniques you use?

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 6:53 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Update: Both his hands got crushed in a log-splitter

Sorry to hear this, Frem...got my hand in a lawnmower when I was five, but luckily only lost bits not pieces...
how is he now? Could they work a miracle or two?

Hopeful Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 7:32 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Growing up (and looking back on it now) I had undiagnosed ADD (which caused some ODD) and a visual processing deficit (which was found during a subliminal image experiment in college).

What I remember now about my life back then are three constants - internal mental noise that frustrated me every second of every day (with one blessed 5 minute hiatus I remember to this day); an instant NO !! reaction to pretty much everything; and wondering how other kids did what they did - seeing things at a glance, following a game on the field, and easily catching details I could only get with prolonged study.

At the ripe old age of 47 I started taking Ritalin. While not nearly as nice as that one instance of focus and perception it made certain things possible - like being able to read to the end of a sentence in 1 try.

If I knew then what I know now, I would have opted for Ritalin. Not b/c I would have been interested in being a better behaved kid, but b/c it would have turned down the noise and reduced that incessant mental itch.

***************************************************************
Been there - done that.

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 8:42 AM

Siggy, ain't it strange how the slightest little difference in tone and wording can have such a profound effect ?

Ask and it gets done, give orders and get a fight.
So simple even a child can do it - why can't we adults ?

Rue-
There's a world of difference between that being a choice - your choice, and someone else's decision without input from you or any regard to you as a person.

I find it very strange that interaction with the child, the patient - is considered utterly unnecessary by most of the folks prescribing them psychotropics on the school or parents insistence... did you know that in a lot of those cases, at least in Maryland, the Doc never even SEES the kid they are writing the scrip for ?

Dead serious, the parents fill out a leading, loaded questionare for forms sake, and to help assauge their conscience as said questionare "assures" them that the kid has it...
(Come on folks, we've *seen* these around, you know what the hell I am talkin about)

And there ya go, any problems, just increase the dosage, yay!

To me that is extreme medical negligence if not downright malpractice, to not even see and evaluate the patient before prescribing an addictive, psychotropic substance with a litany of nasty side-effects that isn't even official approved for use by that age group.

A PROPER behavioral analysis by a trained physician takes a MINIMUM of 90 minutes, none of this "follow my finger with your eyes" for two minutes charade commonly used by the state of MD's little "pet" prescribers - one of which has had several patients suicide, and one kill another by poisoning.. not a good track record in my eyes.

There's a huge difference between THIS crap... and a proper full and complete diagnosis with appropriate feedback and involvement on behalf of the patient, and by that patient.

As for BK's concept,

The thing is, not all children are "broken" so easily to the will of someone using force - oh no, far, far from it.

What if the child digs in their heels and refuses now that you have hurt them instead of protecting them, betrayed them, instead of trusting them...

And continues TO refuse, because you have made yourself their enemy - what then do you do, beat them unconscious if that is what it takes to MAKE them comply ?

How do you then deal with the resistance, sandbagging, lies, deceit and hate hurled in your face in response to your continued abuse - do you then beat them some more ?

Send em to the camps ?

I've seen where that road leads, I've stood with families over the coffins...

Shall I tell you of a 7 year old girl, slowly crushed to death for the horrible "crime" of blowing bubbles in her milk ?

Oh but if she hadn't... you know, been such a bitch and up and DIED on em, sure, that woulda been ok, right - just keep right on till they turn 18 and are magically and instantly well behaved and productive members of society, right ?

Screw it, imma post it, cause folks ain't gonna "get" it no other way.

http://www.caica.org/ANGELLIKA%20ARNDT%20BUBBLES%20IN%20MY%20MILK%2012
-9-06.htm

THIS is where it leads.

Trust me on this, if you push my niece like that, she'll push back - you would HAVE to pound her unconscious cause once you *initiate* violence against HER...
:::shudder:::
Folks, I would rather piss in the eye of a large, hungry, angry, wide-awake DRAGON than try laying hand to THAT kid, for all that she is even smaller than me and has way less experience in close-hand brawling, but damn she makes up with enthusiasm what she lacks in skill.

That whole methodology completely fails when it runs up against a child who will resist, or actively counter-attack when abused.

So we kill em, we just take our time about doing it... and in the doing, destroy the best, most humane and rational element of our society in the name of it's preservation.

And if you ever even for a moment, think that violence or flight is not a NATURAL reaction to being physically assaulted - go out into the wide world around you, pick any sizeable mammal you want, and then go smack it, see what happens to your ass.

How would YOU take it if say, your boss decided to beat YOU with a leather strap for making some minor on-the-job mistakes - either answer that question, or forfeit any further discussion of THAT topic with me ever again.

-F

No updates yet: those heated poofy bag things are supposed to come off tonight and we'll know more then, and I have my personal pack of frankensteins on standby, although it's out of their specialty a bit, their contacts in the industry may be useful, though I hope to not need them.

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:05 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I wanted to add that one of the things we were told in our parenting class for ADHD/ ODD/ OCD kids is that you do NOT want to start that cycle of punishment/defiance because the end of that cycle is egregious child abuse, or worse. When faced with a child like that, SOMEBODY has to be the adult and be in control of their own reactions, and that should be the adult.

Frem- Tell your nephew that many folks are thinking of him and wishing him well.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I wanted to add that one of the things we were told in our parenting class for ADHD/ ODD/ OCD kids is that you do NOT want to start that cycle of punishment/defiance because the end of that cycle is egregious child abuse, or worse. When faced with a child like that, SOMEBODY has to be the adult and be in control of their own reactions, and that should be the adult.

.

That's my opinion too.

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:32 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

BTW - Frem, my thoughts are with your nephew. Please keep us updated.

"Rue-
There's a world of difference between that being a choice - your choice, and someone else's decision without input from you or any regard to you as a person."

If it hadn't been for that little piece of heaven I experienced (and who knows why), I would never have known how bad it was. The problem with kids is that they often can't elucidate how they're feeling and how it makes them perceive the world. And in that situation they have nothing for comparison. And that's especially true at a young age when what they are and what the world is, is one big undifferentiated experience. Children may prefer a noisy world b/c it's what they're used to. Or because they perceive they get treated as 'special'. Or b/c they like the very high highs. I'm not saying they shouldn't be asked. But a child with a serious problem who is clearly better on medication than off shouldn't have the final say on treatment.

But, yes. I recognize that advocating that approach leaves a path open for potential carelessness, abuse or self-interest on the part of parents, teachers, schools and pharmaceutical companies.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I wanted to add that one of the things we were told in our parenting class for ADHD/ ODD/ OCD kids is that you do NOT want to start that cycle of punishment/defiance because the end of that cycle is egregious child abuse, or worse. When faced with a child like that, SOMEBODY has to be the adult and be in control of their own reactions, and that should be the adult.

Frem- Tell your nephew that many folks are thinking of him and wishing him well.

One of the reasons I never used physical punishment on my daughter is because I was afraid of a "cycle of punishment/defiance", which to some extent I had with my father. I think even in a loving family were physical punishment is rare, the problems it creates probably out weigh any benefits. The main problem I see with physical punishment is that it is more often used in a non-loving family environment. This leads to what I call beaten dog syndrome. A dog being a social animal, when in an abusive environment will prefer to be beaten than ignored. Young children also seem to fall into this pattern because they crave attention from their parents even more than they fear abuse.

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:56 AM

ALLIETHORN7

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
One of the reasons I never used physical punishment on my daughter is because I was afraid of a "cycle of punishment/defiance", which to some extent I had with my father. I think even in a loving family were physical punishment is rare, the problems it creates probably out weigh any benefits. The main problem I see with physical punishment is that it is more often used in a non-loving family environment. This leads to what I call beaten dog syndrome. A dog being a social animal, when in an abusive environment will prefer to be beaten than ignored. Young children also seem to fall into this pattern because they crave attention from their parents even more than they fear abuse.

Strange...
As I remember, back when I was younger (Not all that much, considering I'm only 17), my dad would dole out punishment of the physical type when I was being particularly bad. Granted, I wasn't such an uppity youngster, and it wasn't as much a routine as a sideline act- still, it set me straight when I was in need of it, and I am no worse the wear for it.
However, my sister... Well, she rarely got that treatment, as she mastered the use of being cute. And, if I do say so myself, she is worse then I was even at my worst. I can't help ut think that a good smack upside the head is a good detrement to bad behavior- as I believe that the increase in disorders requiring meds are more due to America becoming filled with pansies then anything else. Yes. there are some cases where meds are either the best or only option, but a good portion of these could be put off with a little physical punishment- not abuse, but enough to leave an impression. It's a bit like training a dog, except (One would hope) the midget learns faster.

-Danny

it was in His name that artillery lit the sky on fire
the people sang protest songs to try and stop the soldier's gun

Protest Songs in a response to Military Aggression
Protest songs to try and stop the soldier's gun
But the battle raged on......

The Band of the week is... Against Me!
Gott weiß ich will kein Engel sein.
http://www.myspace.com/otherrandomdude

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:45 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
How would YOU take it if say, your boss decided to beat YOU with a leather strap for making some minor on-the-job mistakes - either answer that question, or forfeit any further discussion of THAT topic with me ever again.

You see no difference between adults and children? Why are children required to be under guardian supervision until the age of 18?
I personally received a well deserved spanking or two in my youth. Did this negatively effect my outlook on my parents, no. Did this turn me into a sociopath, not yet.

I remember my Mom being almost at wit's end until she discovered the 'time out'. When I was at my most manic, I would have to sit quietly on a chair usually staring at a wall. This worked so well I usually ended up dozing off. I suppose this would be considered harsh punishment by you as my individual liberties were certainly curtailed during these instances.
No one is advising beatings for 'minor mistakes' as you put it, but the old adage holds true IMHO. Some people do not believe that the stove top is hot until they actually touch it. A hard lesson to be sure, but one not easily forgotten.

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:02 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Give me my pills so I can be docile and mindless and focus on what my Masters say. Please, please Masters.... take away my individuality and free will and give me Prozac!

Just pointing out that I've taken prozac and I consider myself anything but docile. I'm reliably informed that's not how other people see me either

and if the blazing rows I've had with posters in RWED in the past are anything to go by, I've got my own mind too.

Banners, Avatars, LJ Icons and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com
Valentines Day banners posted last year in the Blue Sun Room. Click on my profile to find them!

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:21 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

My dad, tho I knew he loved us, had the old peasant notion that you train your kids like you train your dogs. Hit 'em hard once when they're old enough to remember and they'll fear you from then on. It worked for me 'cause I was pretty compliant anyway, but not for my sib who had a rebellious streak.

I think we're talking about different things. There's a difference between consequences, punishment, and intimidation. They're not the same thing.

When my daughter was little, she used to dawdle endlessly about getting ready for school. As a consequence I took her halfway to school, still in her pajamas (enuf to convince her that she was going to school like that). As a punishment for bad behavior she'd get some cooling off time. What I never tried to do was intimidate her into obedience.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:24 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Nice picture of Mal. Where'd you get that ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:40 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

I used a screencap from Trash. Got the screencap from still-flying.net.

Banners, Avatars, LJ Icons and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com
Valentines Day banners posted last year in the Blue Sun Room. Click on my profile to find them!

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 2:11 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

THANKS !

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 3:16 PM

Yay, for once I think I actually got across what the hell I was saying...

DTH, Rue - glad someone finally got that I am not busting properly medicating a real problem, but rather the slapdash backhand halfassery that is currently used instead of proper diagnostic procedures to justify misusing medication as a control device.

BDN - Amusingly, some kids do indeed consider that WORSE than being hit, but it does have it's place, although it doesn't work on all kids.

It's a parental duty and responsibility to find a way to do it without doing physical or emotional harm, and some do fail, sure...

But better to try and fail, than fail to try.

One thing I have noticed works rather well on average is the "make it right" angle - spill juice on the floor horsing around, you clean the WHOLE floor, you make it right, and learn the consequences of your actions not only on yourself, but others, this encourages the empathy of not wanting others to pay for your mistakes.

The other is instilling self-discipline by setting a good example and earning a childs respect - you didn't sit in the time out chair out of fear, leastways my impression is that you didn't, but rather because you respected your mother enough to trust her judgement in the matter at a subconscious level... that means she EARNED that respect, and that's a sure sign of good parenting right there.

(I still disagree with striking a child, but everyone is human and no one is totally perfect.)

I do tend to earn the respect of kids, which encourages them to self-discipline behavior that they KNOW would not be approved by you - but have learned you have to balance that with forgiveness for being human, cause once you have that respect, your disapproval can be a pretty crushing blow if they feel they have "failed" you, yet.. balanced correctly, over time they instill a strong self-discipline that serves them pretty well in life.

My niece is making leaps and bounds in that direction, since her christmas holiday here, and since, with reinforcement from her more immediately family, and a couple of her teachers coming around to learning how to deal with her, much of the problem stuff has faded away and continues to do so.

Siggy, that's a good one, hee hee..
I don't speak of it much, but I did raise two kids that were not my own, a relationship that lasted a long time with a divorcee who had two of their own, and earned the fathers approval of his agent in-absentia by doing a decent job... one thing I did learn quick was that most of what is taugh to unsuspecting "newbies" as parenting was pure bullshit, as was anything Dobson ever spouted in his life about it.

That reminded me of the Rite-Aid incident.. little Ricky thought it was a safe place to throw a tantrum, well, I picked him up, tossed him over one shoulder and carried him out in front of a couple of his friends while pleasantly informing him that the only one he was embarrassing here was himself, he chilled out pretty quick, and never pulled that stunt again.

Actually had to have a short discussion about how everyone screws up sometimes to even get him to come back in there with me cause he was rather mortally embarrassed when he actually thought it over later.

Anyhows, glad to see were finally getting some level of mutual understanding here, being used to catching complete flameage for trying to express this stuff, it's a refreshing surprise to finally get it across.

I tend to be rather sharp about it cause I've seen some ugly, horrific stuff from down that force-control road up close and personal, but am getting too cursed old and creaky to be creeping around these places with a camera like some halfassed ninja anymore, we got enough evidence to have the GAO all up their ass anyway - preliminary reports already issued, full accounting (tenative) and policy reccommendations Winter 2008.

http://www.gao.gov/highlights/d08146thigh.pdf

Thanks in great part to Congressman George Miller, current chairman of the Education & Labor Committee for his assistance both professional and personal in this matter.

Involvement with that has been one of the things soaking up a lot of time and attention on my behalf recently, and one reason I am so pressed on the topic as of late.

-Frem

No updates yet, thanks for your well-wishing and support.. his fathers side of the family is christian and he follows that path, at least tenatively, so it would not be insulting to pray for him if you wish.

If any prosthetic tech is needed, likely we'll be going with a touch bionics i-limb system - even if I have to cart his little butt to Boston myself to get it done.

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 3:42 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Frem I read those reports and I've seen others in the news and it's horrific. There've been lots and lots of studies that show that "boot camp"-style discipline doesn' work for the most part. I've seen parents who are just so authoritarian-minded that they CAN'T tolerate any resistance whatsoever, and they unload all of that frustration and angst on their kids. Respect, a good example, and consistent consequences go a WHOLE lot farther than losing your cool, or trying to bully or verbally abuse your kid into "behaving".

---------------
Not prayerful myself, but I'll sent a few thoughts to the squat toad who seems to be ruling this 'verse.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:35 PM

Frem, if you need any help with that butt carting;) I got a strong back. Be glad to help any way that I can. never been to Boston anyway;)

I hope for the best for both of you.

Bad

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Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:49 AM