Something really scary about Obama's Healthcare 'Plan' by 6ixStringJack

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Something really scary about Obama's Healthcare 'Plan'

POSTED BY: 6IXSTRINGJACK
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 19:20
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VIEWED: 1259
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Sunday, March 2, 2008 1:05 AM

Something really irks me about Obama's healthcare "plan"....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but his idea is that all people with children are going to be mandated to provide healthcare for their children.

I'm sure he got this idea from the Illinois law stating that you are unable to drive a car without paying for car insurance. For years it went that if you were pulled over and didn't provide proof of insurance, you were fined $500.00 for it.

Let me point out a few more things about that car insurance law in Illinois.

1) Illinois insurance providers are able to charge much more for car insurance than neighboring Wisconsin can because they have a guaranteed FORCED consumer base.

2) Poor people, illegal immigrants, etc. don't buy the insurance anyways. What are you going to do? Sue them? These are the people who, if they don't just completely recieve free healthcare in the first place, have healthcare debts on their record already that they could never hope to pay off.

3) 2 years ago, when I went to renew my drivers license in Illinois, there is a field in the application for your insurance policy provider and insurance account number. If you don't provide this information, you don't get a license.

Now let's transfer this to medical care.

1) First 10 years or so on this plan, fines are levied against parents who do not insure their children. These fines slowly increase every year or so. The people being fined are likely those least able to afford paying these fines anyhow.

2) The insurance providers continually bump there premiums up on this coverage. It's not an overnight process, but they know they now have a FORCED consumer base who has no other alternative.

3) Poor people, illegal immigrants, etc. won't by the insurance regardless of the laws. What will the government do to them over this that likely isn't already being done to them in every other aspect of their lives? No... chances are, on top of the healtcare premiums we are now forced to pay for, we will be subsidizing their children's healthcare through our taxes, or the further loss of the value of our dollar when they print more money out to insure these kids. Of course there's always the trusty fallback of taxing cigarettes even more to help the children....

4) How many years will it be before they start taking kids away from parents who cannot provide health insurance for their children?

Now I've got a pretty good idea how the beginning of the non-existance of "family" in Brave New World may have originated.

I think if you're going to address the problem, you attack the source. Not put a bandaid on it that can potentially make the problem grow and mutate into a whole new bag of shite.

NO WE CAN'T!

At least not his way.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, March 2, 2008 2:32 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Gee, what took ya so long.

The very words "Government Mandated" should run a chill down the spine of any rational, thinking person - especially since it's OUR job to mandate TO the Government, not the other way around.

Goverment Mandated = Captive Market.
Thus leading to ruinous exploitation and collusion such as we have with automobile insurance.

Or "Safety Features" designed to keep the potential competitors of businesses who're snuggled up to the Gov out of that business, and which serve to drive prices up often in exchange for no ACTUAL safety benefit at all.

Add to that reams of paperwork, red tape, all of which must be done by somebody, and kept track of by somebody else - add in more clueless Govbot employees, some few with an axe to grind.
"What ? well if they want THAT sinful procedure they can just wait till I get good and ready! *shitcans paperwork*"

Then you have to add in enforcement, which means more jackboots, more court time, bloated dockets and sitting in the brig since your bail hearing is three months away and your inevitably postponed arraignment is eight more.

And kid-jacking, and don't even fucking get me started given what MY primary axe is....

And if they really think that would drive costs down, they got another thing coming.

Hospital A jacks a bag of saline to $8.00
Hospital B, seeing that folks have nowhere else to go and now have a Captive Market, also jacks a bag of saline to $8.00 to reduce the load on their system...
Hospital C, now being flooded and unable to provide, jacks theirs to $11.00

And guess who pays when the patients dont?
Why, they flip that cost back onto the Gov, who them reams it out of you and I.

It's just another form of Corporate Welfare, on the dime of people who ain't fuckin got it to spare cause there's so damn much already.

I used to have a pretty good Doc, he was technically a dentist, as he got bombed out of his original practice for not reporting some stuff that would (and did, sadly) get his patient killed if it was....

Nice guy, for cash and favors he could pull off anything short of major surgery, without it going into some database somewhere, or interest and involvement from the goons in blue - too bad someone capped him when they robbed his office cause he made the dumbass mistake of cooperating like the cops tell you to, and got wacked by someone who wanted to eliminate the witness.

My current doc is actually a vet, I've got a "real" doc when I need him, but for general scratch and dent work if it's nothin serious, if she's good enough for my cats, she's good enough for me.

I bring my own (oral) themometer tho.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, March 2, 2008 5:06 AM

SERGEANTX

I sure loves me some democracy.

Looks like we'll be going for a 'hair of the dog that bit me' solution to our healthcare hangover.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, March 2, 2008 8:10 AM

ANTIMASON

jeez... sound like a bunch of whiners around here. we need CHANGE, cant you see.. the evil republicans have let this happen, and now things are getting progressively worse. we need to get the Federal government to intensively regulate all those damn corporations who are to blame. its time the government jumps in and takes complete control! then we can stop worrying about it, cause itll be free! the reason we lack equality is because the government is not envolved enough. this is a new era('a new deal'), so in order to achieve progress we must provide everything universally. you all but seem to be making parallels between our plans, and those of socialist and collectivist states.. its absurd! and its un called for, so i wont even dignify a rebuttal. besides, in theory whats wrong with socialism ?? surely its better then capitalism, which doesnt seem to be working well

(just wanted to try arguing the other side... if a bit facetiously)

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Sunday, March 2, 2008 8:39 AM

OUT2THEBLACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I bring my own (oral) themometer tho.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

Reminds me of a joke :

Doctor : "What's the difference between an oral and a rectal thermometer ?"

Intern : " I Dunno..."

Doctor : " The TASTE ! "

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Sunday, March 2, 2008 8:49 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

gotto agree,

Hillary and Obama have scary plans. I'm not sure if they have strict ways of regulating hte industry built in within those plans, but rules can be changed under the radar at some point down the line, and anything that the insurance companies can live with is probably not good for the people.

Taht doesn't mean the current state of things isn't flawed in a big way, or tipped in the balance of said companies. Acting like nothing needs to change, like we have the best health care in the world, etc. is the total bullshit coming from the "other side" of the aisle. And I've got to give props to the media as well, for making the idea of universal health care so terrifying to the people, that it can't be considered by triangulating democrats who want to shoot for the White HOuse.

.........

Back to the other point thouugh...not sure universal healthcare would even sound so neccesary to me if we just regulated the industry better, and didn't mandate on the consumer end of things, but on the company end.

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Sunday, March 2, 2008 12:07 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Frem, you know more than I do. As it is today, millions of Americans don't have insurance for themselves or thier children. Is not having health insurance for your children a sign that you don't love your children or you aren't otherwise the beast parent that you can be? I don't want the government being able to, by law, come into my house and tell me that I'm a bad parent if the chips are down. And on the verge of a possible depression? Don't even get me started.....

I was spoiled rotten growing up. Neither of my parents are rich, but I was able to go to the doctor for everything when I was growing up. Especially after my parents divorced and my mom went to work. Between the two of them there was no medical bills after insurance. My brother had a brain hemmorage and multiple strokes at the age of 6 years old, but had access to one of the country's leading neurological surgeons and today he not only can walk and talk like the doctors said he'd never do again, but he is a brilliant artist as well. Under socialized healthcare, he would have never had access to that treatment and I thank God or whoever was watching out for him. Even if it was just Lady Luck. He's one of my favorite people in the world, and with the rough upbringing me and my bros were all we had growing up.

That was at a time when much less women were in the workforce and most neighborhoods, hence jobs, were still very segragated. I'm not trying to make a racist or sexist comment here, just stating a fact. There was a lot more to go around when there was a much smaller pool of people who were involved. Now everybody is in that pool(including people who aren't citizens of our country) and there is just a lot less to go around. Insurance was the beast that unleashed this problem wiht healthcare today.

If people from the start were only able to get whatever healthcare they could afford from the beginning, then the medicinal community would only have been able to sell services at prices that the market would allow.

And I state that knowing full well that if that were the case, my brother wouldn't be here today. I don't know what's right or wrong because of htat and it muddles my mind. But if you follow the lines and parallels to any other form of insurance, particularly those important enough to be mandated, insurance has always been a means to a socialist system's end.

I don't want Obama or anybody else taking my kids away because they're not insured. I don't want him taking your kids away, or anyone's on this board. Our insurance becomes more every year, taxes become more every year (particularly when you put inflation in the equation), I just bought a dozen eggs today for 1.98 that cost me half that 2 years ago, gas will keep pushing higer.

The only thing not going higher is our wages....

The end question to us all will be "Can you afford to have children?"

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, March 2, 2008 2:11 PM

ALLIETHORN7

Weeeeeeeeeeeelll...
Mayhaps it really IS best to step up the plans..., instead of me and my friends movin' tio Canada if Hilary wins... mayhaps it's best just to pull up stakes regardless...

-Danny

Who controls the past now controls the future
Who controls the present now controls the past
Who controls the past now controls the future
Who controls the present now?

Now testify
Testify
It's right outside our door
Now testify
Testify
It's right outside our door

The Band of the week is... Rage Against the Machine
Gott weiß ich will kein Engel sein.
http://www.myspace.com/otherrandomdude

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Sunday, March 2, 2008 3:30 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Gimme some time to mentally chew on it, it's been a rough weekend and I'm not firing on all cylinders at the moment...

One thing that pops up is removing the whole insurance mess, an unneccesary middleman and vampiric profiteer setup that drives costs up in both direction for no real benefit but to itself.

Another is the concept of instead of downright gimmes to bloated and corrupt corporations, some of those tax dollars would be well spent funding the education of doctors who would then owe X amount of time servicing those otherwise unable to afford even basic care - wouldn't be a bad tradeoff, that...

We'd have to go with an existing system, sucky and inefficient though it would be, especially intially cause of beaurucratic intertia and the fact that there's just no time to start from scratch, we're really dealing with a critical situation here, and the profiteers know it as well as we do, so that has to be taken into account as well cause they'll feed panic in any direction that profits them.

I'd say the medicare framework, screwed up as it is, would probably be the best core to start building on, but I give you that the initial period and working the legal and other kinks out, it would probably suck worse than what we currently have for some time.

I wouldn't hold my breath for them to cut the extortionate taxes on us, and the ludicrous fees and taxes on them, down to a level where joe blow could afford an office visit, although that would be the most sensible solution now wouldn't it ?

Everywhere you look, the bite that Gov and it's mandates take is all around you, adversely affecting every transaction from buying a pack of gum to a major surgery, and it's deleterious effects multiply upon each other and feed and feed till there is nothing left.

"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance."

Gimme some time to chew out it, but you know full and well that any solution containing even a lick of sense will be automatically rejected out of hand.

Ergo, it's an exercise in mental masturbation to even try.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, March 6, 2008 8:38 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Any more thoughts on this now Frem? Had a little good 'ole mental masturbation alone time?

Where are the Obamites? Where are the Canooks and UK dwellers who swear up and down on their socialized healthcare?

Funny that this isn't getting any resistance here. The Obamaites don't want to give it any thought because it makes sense and they don't want to even ponder anything that makes their new God look bad.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, March 6, 2008 9:29 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Alliethorn7:
me and my friends movin' tio Canada if Hilary wins...

Didn't you pay attention when she tried the same deal when She was First Lady? The rap on it then was that it was just like Canadian socialized medicine, complete with stories about patients ( and Doctors) coming to the USA to get treatment because they'd have died if they waited around for the Canadian government to provide services.

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Friday, March 7, 2008 4:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Weeeeeeeeeeeelll...
Mayhaps it really IS best to step up the plans..., instead of me and my friends movin' tio Canada if Hilary wins...

Did you know that Canada has "socialized medicine"? So if you want to avoid that, don't go to Canada. Or Europe. Also, you'll need to skip Costa Rica, New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, Thailand, and South Africa.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, March 7, 2008 5:49 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, if were gonna get stuck with this lame ass scheme I would rather it not be at the hands of Billary, she's buried halfway up Big Pharmas arse and always has been, any plan comin outta her is just gonna amount to bend over, smile and hand over the cash to her cronies and controllers.

Obama might as least have the decency to hand out a reach-around, but in the end, much the same.

And McCain ? Ha, don't make me laugh, this is a guy who took AIPAC money to sell our troops out by using them to front some other nations agenda.... which has finally, thankfully, become the "Kiss of Death" that it should be.

And apparently the shrub gave him the ole "Full Confidence and Support" nod the other day, which is "Kiss of Death" number two, right up there with "Great Job, Brownie!".

Folks, when THAT guy smiles at you or says something nice, like any sociopath it don't mean he likes you, means he sees you as Easy Prey and you're about to be his victim.

I'd SLAP that man for smiling at me.

I got a lot to deal with right now all of the sudden, and I cannot really share a lot of it but between too damn many folks all the sudden wanting to blow shit up on a wider scale, and certain other events goin on - the thread of some maybe-someday health plan has become a bit less imminent to me.

Is it bad that I am lookin at those mad bomber wannabes as possibly the solution to the other problem ?
*shakes head*

I hate myself for even thinkin it, Jack...
But I would be a liar if I said I had not thought about it.

-F

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Friday, March 7, 2008 10:33 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

NOBC:

Quote:
complete with stories about patients ( and Doctors) coming to the USA to get treatment because they'd have died if they waited around for the Canadian government to provide services.

As opposed to dying in the street or at home because you can't get insurance at all? *sarcasm on* Wow, now that sounds like an attractive option! *sarcasm off*

In fact, not only do we get CRAPPY service (if we get any at all) from insurance companies that routinely rake 40% off the top, we get to pay more for less care!
www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_per_cap_tot_exp_on_hea_in_int_dol-capit
a-total-expenditure-international-dollars

Before you bloviate on healthcare, do a little independent research. You may wind up still preferring the USA system but at least it will be for credible reasons.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, March 7, 2008 5:11 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Now don't mistake me Signy. I don't belive that there ain't a shit ton of problems with medicare in this country today, but socialized healthcare or mandated healthcare is not the answer. It's just another step in the wrong direction. This needs to be taken care of at the source, and either of those two options do nothing but serve to strengthen that source exponentially in the end.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, March 7, 2008 10:25 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
NOBC:
Quote:
complete with stories about patients ( and Doctors) coming to the USA to get treatment because they'd have died if they waited around for the Canadian government to provide services.
As opposed to dying in the street or at home because you can't get insurance at all? *sarcasm on* Wow, now that sounds like an attractive option! *sarcasm off*

In fact, not only do we get CRAPPY service (if we get any at all) from insurance companies that routinely rake 40% off the top, we get to pay more for less care!
www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_per_cap_tot_exp_on_hea_in_int_dol-capit
a-total-expenditure-international-dollars

Before you bloviate on healthcare, do a little independent research. You may wind up still preferring the USA system but at least it will be for credible reasons.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

Darlin',

I never said that was my opinion. I said that was the rap against it then. I shoulda said " pushed by the right-wingers."

Personally , I got no beef with socialized medicine-- I figure the government could afford to provide it, free or at low cost, , PERIOD.

I do think that MANDATING that folks buy insurance is unenforcible, and won't benefit ANYBODY but the insurance companies.

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Saturday, March 8, 2008 4:21 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
If people from the start were only able to get whatever healthcare they could afford from the beginning, then the medicinal community would only have been able to sell services at prices that the market would allow.

This is the core of the entire issue. Any "plan" that makes it possible for people to spend more money on health care will only make the problem worse. That leaves us with two choices. Control costs with regulation, essentially nationalizing the health care industry, or having the balls to let the free market sort it out.

Obviously, I favor the latter. But while it's a relatively simple solution, it won't by any stretch be easy. It will require a willingness to let people decide for themselves the level of quality they are willing, and able, to pay for. It will require that we let enterprising doctors and business people find new ways to provide services that are less expensive. It will require opening up the pharmaceutical industry to alternative players.

But all of that hinges on a desire for, or at least acceptance of, less regulation. And that implies that people accept more responsibility for their own decisions. And, sadly, I just don't see that happening.

So we're stuck with nationalizing it, which, given they way our government currently works, will mean giving even more power the the corporations currently raping us. As an added bonus, it will bankrupt us in the process. Huzzah!

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, March 8, 2008 5:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
It will require a willingness to let people decide for themselves the level of quality they are willing, and able, to pay for.

Really, Sarge, do "people" have any say over what they're "able" to pay for? Do people have any control whatsoever over wages and employment levels? Because without that all you're proposing is social Darwinism, which is the pet hobby-horse of corporations everywhere, and all your plan does is toss poor people's bodies into a pit at their behest. Thanks but no thanks.

To be fair, I don't think that you'd propose your social-Darwinistic healthcare "plan" as an isolated policy change. I think that you'd also advocate that corporations simply not be protected by the government as much, and I think you assume that this would make individual workers and corporations equal players. But IMHO If you're bargaining as an individual against a collective, you'll always lose.

If you accept corporations as a legitimate force in "the market" you also have to accept unions and government as legitimate forces in "the market", since you need a collective to bargain against a collective. (Equal strengths across the table.)

So, are you willing to eliminate corporations altogether? Or will you allow opposing forces an equal chance to grow and act?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Saturday, March 8, 2008 5:42 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Personally , I got no beef with socialized medicine-- I figure the government could afford to provide it, free or at low cost, , PERIOD. I do think that MANDATING that folks buy insurance is unenforcible, and won't benefit ANYBODY but the insurance companies.

Then we agree 100%.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Saturday, March 8, 2008 6:00 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
In other words, Sarge, it will be social Darwinism.

Not in my words. It's frustrating that you can't see another alternative. You seem to be implying that without government mandate, we would all just turn our backs on the less fortunate. I certainly wouldn't. Is that your plan? Why do you assume that we can't care for each other in the spirit of community unless it's dictated by law? Especially when legally mandated 'caring' is driving us into such disastrous dead-ends?

No, letting people make their own decisions is not Social Darwinism, and it's not the heartless dog-eat-dog world you presume.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, March 8, 2008 6:32 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You seem to be implying that without government mandate, we would all just turn our backs on the less fortunate. I certainly wouldn't.

Yes, if we were pushed hard enough into poverty by corporations we WOULD turn our backs on the less fortunate. It happens everywhere.

I'm talking about having the power to make the future as we think it should be, not just giving it up to corporations. Why should we be struggling in THEIR defined system while we run around like less-than-ants trying to find a little bigger morsel of sugar, licking each other's wounds and trying to make our captivity somehow more bearable?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Wednesday, March 12, 2008 7:20 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

But why should I have to pay for it either way Signy? If I'm not going to the doctor, I shouldn't be paying the doctor... PERIOD.

It's bad enough I have to spend my income against my will on a Social Security program that is already bankrupt and a Medicare program that I don't support on any level.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, March 12, 2008 7:20 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Dammit

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