Cheney says Bin Laden Innocent on 9/11 by piratenews

Quote:
when the fact is they were were taken off the battle field, fighting w/ our military.

Bullshit, most were just pointed out by other sad little bastards in order to either be on the pointing, rather than recieving, end of the finger, or to make the torture stop - one reason it doesn't work, since folks will tell you anythin you wanna hear and ain't none of it true.

To steal a quote from David Drakes Counting the Cost...
"Party Time"

Of course, the only makes sense in context if you've read the book, but when the jackboot comes down, a lotta folks wind up pointing the finger fast at anyone they might not like, to focus it's attention anywhere but them.

And that's just the way it is, guilt or innocent ain't got shit to do with it.

Having fun, Mikey ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, March 11, 2008 1:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
when the fact is they were were taken off the battle field, fighting w/ our military.

Bullshit, most were just pointed out by other sad little bastards in order to either be on the pointing, rather than recieving, end of the finger, or to make the torture stop - one reason it doesn't work, since folks will tell you anythin you wanna hear and ain't none of it true.

To steal a quote from David Drakes Counting the Cost...
"Party Time"

Of course, the only makes sense in context if you've read the book, but when the jackboot comes down, a lotta folks wind up pointing the finger fast at anyone they might not like, to focus it's attention anywhere but them.

And that's just the way it is, guilt or innocent ain't got shit to do with it.

Having fun, Mikey ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

Besides which, you invaded their country

they fought back... that makes them terrorists ?

Well I suppose thats what the Russians would have called them it the movie Red Dawn. More pro terrorist propaganda.

The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:15 PM

America loves a winner!

The U.S. constitution does not apply to non citizens fighting against our military in times of conflict. YOU seem to think it does. I missed the part where enemy soldiers were given free and unfettered access to OUR Judicial system. They aren't. More often than not, those attempting to enter our country were shot. They were lucky if they got a military tribunal.

We don't torture. Speaking out against the Gov'te in Iraq got one's hand sawed off, or wife and daughters raped. In N.Korea, they send you off to work camp. Weee ! Sounds fun, huh? WE DON'T DO THAT, MORON. I love how the definition of 'torture' has been expanded to cover every damn thing like not getting a fresh, clean prayer rug 5x's a day, or not having " religious appropriate " meals served..oh, we do that, don't we ? Never mind. If we're committing such an attrocity as waterboarding, it's to get info from bad guys. Info that'll save lives of civilians and or our troops. You seem to think that's a bad idea. I don't.

And yes, you're MUTE on the terrorist torturing innocents, out of their brand of allah worship. We don't torture, and you raise all hell about it, and they DO torture, and you say nothing. It's not an issue of ' they did it first', jackass. But keep pushing that non sequitur, if it makes you feel any better.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The U.S. constitution does not apply to non citizens fighting against our military in times of conflict. YOU seem to think it does. I missed the part where enemy soldiers were given free and unfettered access to OUR Judicial system. They aren't. More often than not, those attempting to enter our country were shot. They were lucky if they got a military tribunal.

We don't torture. Speaking out against the Gov'te in Iraq got one's hand sawed off, or wife and daughters raped. In N.Korea, they send you off to work camp. Weee ! Sounds fun, huh? WE DON'T DO THAT, MORON. I love how the definition of 'torture' has been expanded to cover every damn thing like not getting a fresh, clean prayer rug 5x's a day, or not having " religious appropriate " meals served..oh, we do that, don't we ? Never mind. If we're committing such an attrocity as waterboarding, it's to get info from bad guys. Info that'll save lives of civilians and or our troops. You seem to think that's a bad idea. I don't.

And yes, you're MUTE on the terrorist torturing innocents, out of their brand of allah worship. We don't torture, and you raise all hell about it, and they DO torture, and you say nothing. It's not an issue of ' they did it first', jackass. But keep pushing that non sequitur, if it makes you feel any better.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

I'm fine with the people arrested INSIDE the US, but %80 of the people locked up were fighting the US inside their own country. Such as this one who is there for throwing grenades at US soldiers

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/apr/23/usa

And bullshit the US doesn't torture, it depends on where you make the definition, one of the thing I admire about John McCain is I think he'll put right that issue.

As for innocents... maybe try citing example, you seem to be aright with executing terrorist suspects in the US, doesn't that make American terrorists in foreign lands free game. Its their country and that makes a hell of a difference with the wrong or right of the situation...

The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Tuesday, March 11, 2008 11:50 PM

America loves a winner!

First of all, get your definitions straight. Not any bloke w/a gun is a 'terrorist'. A terrorist is an individual, not a member of any regulated miitary and one who wears no recognized uniform that targets civilian and military personnel w/ out discrimination. When you say "American terrorist", I'm not sure what you're talking about. There are none that I'm aware of. Also, as for Iraq, there were many there fighting the Coalition who were from outside Iraq.

And what's a 15 yr old Canadian doing in Afghanistan in the 1st place ? Besides tossing grenades at U.S. soldiers, I mean.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, March 11, 2008 11:50 PM

Quote:
In N.Korea, they send you off to work camp. Weee ! Sounds fun, huh? WE DON'T DO THAT, MORON.

You're a liar.

We most certainly DO, do that, moron.

"Dissappeared" right to the camps, here in america.
http://www.journalismcenter.org/awards/nadya_labi.html

And a lotta times, they die.
http://outside.away.com/outside/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html
Need I repost the casualty lists, again ?

Conditions so hellish, gulag is the only word appropriate.
http://www.teenliberty.org/An_American_GULAG.htm

And we do it to our own, often for no better reason than rebellious youth.

And you mean to tell me we don't that and worse to guys rounded up on the say-so of some jerk being tortured who'll say *anything* to make it stop, and starts naming names at random ?

Cause, you know, that's what torture does, it doesn't get real information, just whatever the victim thinks will make it stop, and so we wind up torturing some nobody, for nothing, who fingers other nobodies - and we wind up torturing a lotta folk for no good reason and getting nothing in return but the everlasting hatred of everyone they ever knew that didn't get fingered and dragged off.

Shit, with that kind of policy, the other guys don't NEED to recruit, we drive the populace running into their arms because we're fucking monsters, in their opinion, and rightfully so.

And yet I bet you'd throw a freakin fit if Chavez hauled out the waterboard the NEXT time he caught american "terrorists" (as in our intel people) trying to forment revolt or have his ass assassinated like we did Mossedeigh way back when, which got us into this whole blasted mess in the first place, given that OBL, The Taliban, Saddam, The Mujas, the whole freakin lot was at one time or another on our payroll, till we sold em out when we were done using them.

Fact is, we committed terrorism against many nations - gonna invite their people down to Langley and haul out the waterboard ?
I mean, fair is fair, right, if we can torture theirs, then we shouldn't bitch when they torture ours, yes ?

Maybe you just can't get it though your little pin-head, but lemme make it crystal clear - if you want any right to bitch about what other countries do, you want any chance of being listened to instead of being the outright laughingstock you have become, we need to set a fucking EXAMPLE by not engaging in that kind of behavior ourselves.

If it weren't for short-sighted pettyminded little rah-rahs like you, and the racial hate and religious intolerance every bit as cruel sprited as the very worst islamic radical, we coulda pulled to the top, taken a leadership position at the UN, and practically taken the hell over, bending it to our ends and used someone ELSES troops to do the job... or hell, sent in the diplomats and the corpie reps and practially bought the damn place up lock, stock and barrel...

We coulda damnwell OWNED that place, and had them building statues in our honor FOR it...

But noooo, you and your ilk wanted to kill some towelheads, wanted oh so desperately to slaughter folks who's primary crime against you is having the wrong skin color, and beliveing something other than what you would have them believe... you know, prettymuch the same damn issue they got with you!

Where's the difference between you and them, Rap ?

Cause I sure as hell ain't seein it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, March 12, 2008 7:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
First of all, get your definitions straight. Not any bloke w/a gun is a 'terrorist'. A terrorist is an individual, not a member of any regulated miitary and one who wears no recognized uniform that targets civilian and military personnel w/ out discrimination. When you say "American terrorist", I'm not sure what you're talking about. There are none that I'm aware of. Also, as for Iraq, there were many there fighting the Coalition who were from outside Iraq.

And what's a 15 yr old Canadian doing in Afghanistan in the 1st place ? Besides tossing grenades at U.S. soldiers, I mean.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

So by you definition any employee of Blackwater or any of the independent contractors are terrorists and are free game, and for the kid I believe his parents were dual citizens. Also your definiton seems to fit any of the resistance groups of WW2, did the US support terrorism back then ? hell my previous analogy with the movie Red Dawn being about a band of terrorists also seems to fit. The definitions being used here are so out of date and are being used so selectively they are beyond useless.

The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Wednesday, March 12, 2008 7:29 AM

After starving Iraq, denying them access to purchase medicines, water purification equip, etc for a decade for the second invasion.... I think trying to win hearts and minds there was a long uphill battle from the start...

Maybe I'm being cynical, but I think I would harbor a grudge

The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:21 PM

America loves a winner!

Frem, you're a liar, a moron and an idiot. Those 'schools' you claim aren't run by the Federal Gov't, and it's parents sending their own unruly kids to these places, not some Federal Bureaucracy in charge of re-education. And none of that has ANYTHING to do w/the interogation of Islamic zealots who want to blow us up, or die trying. We don't torture, and no matter how many times you suggest we do, I'll be right here, correcting you. Our guys are more motivated in getting results, positive info, than dealing out pain for no purpose. There mere option of waterboarding, which we've claimed we don't do anymore , is a ace up our sleeve I'd rather have than not. Or, to be more accureate, have the TERRORISTS believe we have. If they know we're not allowed to do more than play patty-cake w/ them, they'll feel no pressure to say much of anything, and will laugh at us as we try to make them talk. No thanks on that.

Quote:
If it weren't for short-sighted pettyminded little rah-rahs like you, and the racial hate and religious intolerance every bit as cruel sprited as the very worst islamic radical, we coulda pulled to the top, taken a leadership position at the UN, and practically taken the hell over, bending it to our ends and used someone ELSES troops to do the job... or hell, sent in the diplomats and the corpie reps and practially bought the damn place up lock, stock and barrel...

We coulda damnwell OWNED that place, and had them building statues in our honor FOR it...

Again, you have it 100% backwards. It's rah rahs like me w/ my religious intolerance ( not racial hatred, that's your dept., not mine ) that has lead to our success, and likely saved your ass from future attacks. The U.N. is run by a bunch of 3rd world thugs and tyrants, none of which would have allowed us to do what needed to be done. Example? Food for Oil scandal, doofus. You don't see the differences because you don't want to. To do so, would be an admission that you're wrong, and you're to ass brained stubborn to do any such thing.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:27 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

So by you definition any employee of Blackwater or any of the independent contractors are terrorists and are free game, and for the kid I believe his parents were dual citizens. Also your definiton seems to fit any of the resistance groups of WW2, did the US support terrorism back then ? hell my previous analogy with the movie Red Dawn being about a band of terrorists also seems to fit. The definitions being used here are so out of date and are being used so selectively they are beyond useless.

Blackwater contractors are security , not terrorists. Try to keep up. They're not Mercs who shoot civiilians or blow up markets to send some sort of social, religious or political messsage. Why are you having such a hard time w/ this ? It's rather quite simple. Same w/ Red Dawn, there the kids are fighting military, not civilians.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, March 12, 2008 3:57 PM

Quote:
Those 'schools' you claim aren't run by the Federal Gov't, and it's parents sending their own unruly kids to these places, not some Federal Bureaucracy in charge of re-education.

Oh, you think so do you ?
Maybe if you'd been payin any attention you'd know a lot of em are.

10 months after scandal, problems plague Texas Youth Commission
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/1216
07dnprotycyearend.2b704ee.html

13,000 abuse claims in juvie centers
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080302/ap_on_re_us/juvenile_detention

The worst physical confrontations can end in death. At least five juveniles died after being forcibly placed in restraints in facilities run by state agencies or private facilities with government contracts since Jan. 1, 2004.

The use of restraint techniques and devices and their too-aggressive application have long been controversial and came under intense scrutiny last year after the death of 14-year-old Martin Lee Anderson.

A grainy video taken at a Florida boot camp in January 2006 shows several guards striking the teen while restraining him. Six guards and a nurse were acquitted Oct. 12 of manslaughter charges after defense attorneys argued that the guards used acceptable tactics.

In Maryland, 17-year-old Isaiah Simmons lost consciousness and died after he was held to the floor face down at a privately owned facility that was contracted by the state. Prosecutors say the staff waited 41 minutes after the boy was unresponsive to call for help.

About Martin Lee Anderson
http://www.martinleeanderson.com/index.php
All caught on tape, mind you.

Quote:
We don't torture, and no matter how many times you suggest we do, I'll be right here, correcting you.

Then correct this.

Forced activity to the point of exhaustion, collapse, and death.
THIS, is not torture ?

And I cite that it's commonplace, with a long list of dead kids to show for it.

Quote:
It's rah rahs like me w/ my religious intolerance ( not racial hatred, that's your dept., not mine ) that has lead to our success

Some "success" - we're now the most hated country in the world, our reputation is shot, our military is broken and we're in ass-deep debt with an economy in the shitter as our entire infrastructure falls apart behind the dimwits cheerleading the brawl, there's still a big fucking hole in the ground where the twin towers used to be, and new orleans looks like a goddamn warzone.

We're it not for idiots like you who are blinded by hate, fear and intolerance, WE coulda been in charge at the U.N. instead of those third world tyrants, we coulda snookered em into handing us leadership on a silver platter, and then used the U.N. and it's forces as a hammer to enforce OUR agenda.

But no, we sent in racist maniacs like Bolton and made ourselves the laughingstock of the entire planet - my problem with folks like you involved in the world domination game isn't the fact that you're there....

It's that you are incompetent, short-sighted, and stupid.

Snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory, and laid low by their own hubris and arrogance by some bunch of petty goons out in the desert who didn't even have a goddamn thing to do with 9-11...

Yeah, heck of a job, Brownie.

You ain't even competent at making your case, cause here I am dancing you in circles making you look like even MORE of a ignorant, clueless shill than you already are, while you angrily screech assertions with no basis in fact, and tons of evidence proving they are absolutely untrue.

I not only know what you'll say when I pull your string, I know how you'll say it... perhaps instead of using puny propaganda-laden feedback loops you might try experimenting with original thought for once, instead of parrotting what you are told to by folks using you and your stupidity for their own gain and enrichment.

You never do get it though, I don't mind us being bad guys - I mind us being INCOMPETENT bad guys.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, March 12, 2008 4:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

So by you definition any employee of Blackwater or any of the independent contractors are terrorists and are free game, and for the kid I believe his parents were dual citizens. Also your definiton seems to fit any of the resistance groups of WW2, did the US support terrorism back then ? hell my previous analogy with the movie Red Dawn being about a band of terrorists also seems to fit. The definitions being used here are so out of date and are being used so selectively they are beyond useless.

Blackwater contractors are security , not terrorists. Try to keep up. They're not Mercs who shoot civiilians or blow up markets to send some sort of social, religious or political messsage. Why are you having such a hard time w/ this ? It's rather quite simple. Same w/ Red Dawn, there the kids are fighting military, not civilians.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

Wait, I finaly get it....

AURaptor is really Stephen Colbert

The handle, the Eagle thing, the brand of humor

Now I understand, you my friend are freaking hilarious... and I thought you were being serious

Great Job

The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Wednesday, March 12, 2008 6:05 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Wait, I finaly get it....

AURaptor is really Stephen Colbert

The handle, the Eagle thing, the brand of humor

Now I understand, you my friend are freaking hilarious... and I thought you were being serious

Great Job

So, when you can't respond to my post w/ anything close to substance or challenge my facts, you play silly?

What ever helps you sleep at night.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, March 12, 2008 6:20 PM

America loves a winner!

So, in case anynoe missed it...

Our Government doesn't take folks off the street and stow them away in work camps as they do in N.Korea. Despite Frem's odd isistance of bringing up now defunct schools for rowdy teens. 'Gov't contracts signed ' does not = being part of the Gov't. Sorry, but do please take up your pet cause in some other forum, one where it makes more sense to bring up instead of one like this, where it has no place.

To the contrary, we're NOT the most hated country in the world. There will always be a contengent of little tyrant thugs running 3rd world dictatorships who lie to their citizens and tell lies about the U.S. , but for the most part, folks like us. I fondly remember how W.Europe marched and donned silly skull costumes to protest Reagan too, back in the 80's. Hating the lone super power is just a game for some folks, nothing we can worry about. Oh, and even France's new Pres likes us, go figure !

( Why you bring "Brownie" in on this discussion is another myster. He actually didn't do such a bad job, the complete system was F'ed up when FEMA and Homeland Security were tied a the hip, under 1 roof. Meaningless sidebar.....

You mindlessly claim some sort of victory, when all you're doing is repeating baseless, debunked claims over and over again. No need to reply any further. Bolton isn't a racist , by any stretch of the imagination. He simply calls it like it is. I know you'd rather or Ambassador to the U.N. clink champaign glasses w/punks who run 3rd world nations, but he's better than that. Much better.

Oh, and no one ever claimed we went to war becasue Saddam was linked to al Qaeda. So do yourself a favor and stop making an a$$ of yourself every time you repeat that crap.

Just tryin' to help out.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, March 12, 2008 7:27 PM

Wipe your chin there Rap, ya gotta bit of foam dribble goin on...

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Wednesday, March 12, 2008 9:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Wait, I finaly get it....

AURaptor is really Stephen Colbert

The handle, the Eagle thing, the brand of humor

Now I understand, you my friend are freaking hilarious... and I thought you were being serious

Great Job

So, when you can't respond to my post w/ anything close to substance or challenge my facts, you play silly?

What ever helps you sleep at night.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

Who could possibly challenge your truthiness

The way you twist fact and change the argument to fit your reality is brilliant

and I loved your performance at the White House press dinner... truely epic

The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:10 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Who could possibly challenge your truthiness

The way you twist fact and change the argument to fit your reality is brilliant

and I loved your performance at the White House press dinner... truely epic

Only you can't cite anywhere I " twist fact " and change the argument. Hell,it's Frem who is trying to distort the issue here by trying to interject private institutions as being on par with Gov't run prison camps in China, N.Korea, etc....

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:14 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Wipe your chin there Rap, ya gotta bit of foam dribble goin on...

Your inability to respond rationally or substantively save for your vulgar inanity proves my point. You have nothing.

Thanks anyways.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, March 13, 2008 8:25 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
So, in case anynoe missed it...

Our Government doesn't take folks off the street and stow them away in work camps as they do in N.Korea.

No, our government takes folks off the streets - yes, even right here in the good ol' US-of-fuckin'-A - and stow them away as "enemy combatants" at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Quote:
There will always be a contengent of little tyrant thugs running 3rd world dictatorships who lie to their citizens and tell lies about the U.S.

Yes, and as long as there are tin-pot dictators, there will be Republicans who will do their damnedest to keep them in power.

Quote:
Oh, and no one ever claimed we went to war becasue Saddam was linked to al Qaeda. So do yourself a favor and stop making an a$$ of yourself every time you repeat that crap.

You and Hero have *repeatedly* made just such a claim, including right here in this very forum, less than a week ago. One of you claimed that there were "ties" - and then mumbled something about "no matter how weak" - between Saddam and Al Qaeda which, in and of themselves, were enough justification for our invasion of Iraq.

Just tryin' to point you out as the liar we all know you are.

It is not those who use the term "Republican Dipshits" who are sullying the name of Republicans; it is the Republican Dipshits.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, March 13, 2008 9:31 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

No, our government takes folks off the streets - yes, even right here in the good ol' US-of-fuckin'-A - and stow them away as "enemy combatants" at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Only 1 small problem for ya....that actually doesn't happen. Ooops.

Quote:

Yes, and as long as there are tin-pot dictators, there will be Republicans who will do their damnedest to keep them in power.

No one loves his dictators more than Jimmy Carter. Bless his America hating, Nobel Prize winning little heart.

Quote:

You and Hero have *repeatedly* made just such a claim, including right here in this very forum, less than a week ago. One of you claimed that there were "ties" - and then mumbled something about "no matter how weak" - between Saddam and Al Qaeda which, in and of themselves, were enough justification for our invasion of Iraq.

Just tryin' to point you out as the liar we all know you are.

I'm not a liar, and it's clear by your inability to produce any such evidence only proves that you're talking out of your arse. The claims of any " ties " I posted were from a quote by Factcheck.org, and if you had 1/2 a brain, you'd use the link I provided and read the damn words for yourself, instead of accusing me of 'lying' again, Moron.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, March 13, 2008 12:48 PM

Come on Kwicko,

He cant be serious, either he doesn't read the news or he ignores the news that doesn't fit his reality,

or he is really Stephen Colbert

I mean even Faux news stopped pretending that Blackwater hasn't committed atrocity's in Iraq and Afganistan, or that " Brownie " did a good job in New Orleans.

Personally I think Mr Colbert is playing with you

The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Thursday, March 13, 2008 2:41 PM

America loves a winner!

Gino, you and kwickie both know I'm right, or else you'd have debunked what I said. Instead, all you've done is act indignant, act silly and ( in kwickie's case ) hurl out vulgarities and insults.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, March 13, 2008 3:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Gino, you and kwickie both know I'm right, or else you'd have debunked what I said. Instead, all you've done is act indignant, act silly and ( in kwickie's case ) hurl out vulgarities and insults.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

alright....... fine then

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7068600.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7039912.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7068600.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7046272.stm

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/03/brown.fema.emails/

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/03/13/khadr-interrogators.html

The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:45 PM

Quote:
Your inability to respond rationally or substantively save for your vulgar inanity proves my point. You have nothing.

No sense trying to salvage it now, not after being publicly lead around the thread spitting and spewing, practically foaming at the mouth like an angry bull chasing the matadors cape.

I told you to dance for me, and you did, and your own commentary in response to the evidence I gave proves without a doubt you were so angry at having your pathetic little faery tales blown up that you didn't even glance at it before making such clueless statements of denial in the face of outright facts - so enraged that in your primal hammering of the keyboard in desperate flailing response you managed to stoop even below your usual low standards of the use of english.

So having realized you were just had, now you go to your fallback position of demanding "proof", none of which will ever be good enough, since you'll either outright deny it or pick it at in attempts to change the subject or cause thread drift - anything at all to avoid the topic at hand, and especially your own actions revealing the hateful and malicious ignorance that is all your blind faith has ever succeeded in obtaining for you.

And the hell of it is that I can't even feel sorry for you, cause you and yours are a threat to me, to my personhood, to everything that makes america better than some pathetic third world junta.
(but not for long if y'all have your way about it!)

I just like to bait you into revealing your true colors so that folk know what kind of a mental sewer those opinions you keep expressing as facts come from.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, March 13, 2008 11:51 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Gino,

Do you think mere facts are going to change Rap's mind ? He's too far gone for that - he's above them. He knows.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, March 14, 2008 3:15 AM

America loves a winner!

Frem - that you can't offer up any proof to support your claims is, by no means, an 'out' for your case. You can post from here 'til eternity on the flaws of my character, as you see them,while you dance around the primary issues, but all that does is speak poorly of you. The more you dodge, obfuscate and hurl empty , vile insults only proves my point.

But thanks for playing.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, March 14, 2008 3:27 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Gino,

Do you think mere facts are going to change Rap's mind ? He's too far gone for that - he's above them. He knows.

"

Facts I'd appreciate. However, superfluous links to the same story, and none of which supports the initial claims may look impressive, but in reality are a waste of my time and tells me that this has become a pissing match where the other side has run dry, long ago. I'm sure you'll keep the insults coming though, because that's the 1 thing you WON'T run out of, unlike your so called 'facts', aka - diversions from the issues.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, March 14, 2008 5:35 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Oh wait ! You mean NEWS articles about Blackwater doing what you say it doesn't do aren't facts ? Well then ! I'm glad you've let us in to your (c)Rap definitions - so now we know !

Why don't YOU try addressing the many links provided ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, March 14, 2008 6:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Gino,

Do you think mere facts are going to change Rap's mind ? He's too far gone for that - he's above them. He knows.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

No I'm convinced AURaptor is the internet handle for comedian Steven Colbert and he is just messing with all of us...

Nobody has had such blind devotion to their leader since 1942...

The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Friday, March 14, 2008 6:46 AM

Indeed - I posted facts, you were too busy foaming at the mouth to read em, as was, again, obvious by your commentary.

If you can't be bothered to read the evidence already given to you, don't go asking for more.

I show you a list of incidents in state-owned, state-run facilities, and you say there aren't any such things, proving you didn't even glance at it - Martin Lee Anderson died in a state run facility, under conditions which could only be considered torture, then those involved tried to lie about it, and even when caught having done it, AND lying about it, when someone swiped the security cam tape and put it in the hands of the media, still got off scot-free.

Florida, in response to public outcry, closed those camps in 2006 and then re-opened them under the STAR program, largely a PR move since the STAR camps operate in the same fashion, same buildings, using the same personnel, just business as usual, once the heat is off.

It's a shell game, when caught out or investigated, they close up shop for a week or so, and change the name and incorporation, then go right back to what they were doing - whether they be state owned and run, contracted by the state, or private, the game is always the same.

Ain't just me in their case anymore either, now that their cover has been blown.
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/edlabor_dem/rel101007b.html

The GAO hopes to have a full report by mid-2008 but this has been slowed by some unrelated political issues leading to several resignations and the hassle of assigning new folk and getting them up to speed.

Not that you care about all that, but what it does do is blow up your assertion that we don't torture people - we torture teens, every day, often for naught more than youthful rebellion.

Knowing that, do you really think I give any credence to claims that we don't torture suspected militants at Gitmo, especially when there's pictures and video from Abu Gharib showing that we damn well do anywhere else ?

Not to mention the freakin Red Cross busted our chops for conditions there, violations of treaties we signed (thus making them equal to the US Constitution itself in authority) barring mistreatment of prisoners, flagrant violations of medical and legal ethics, and abusive interrogation tactics, aka, torture.

Read the freakin ICRC report why don't you ?

Till you have, and can prove it, don't go askin for more evidence just to waste peoples time attempting to cure your preciously-held ignorance.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, March 14, 2008 11:00 AM

America loves a winner!

The lengths you folks go to in order to stretch facts so they'll fit your preconceived notions is enough to make a rubber tree shiver. Juvenile detention centers for ill tempered kiddies equates, in YOUR world, to N.Korea or Chinese work camps, where 1000's of people from all walks of life are taken off the streets or out of their homes to be sent away and 're-educated' or worse. All for the crime of speaking out against the State ?

Wow. I got nothin else to say on that matter. Oh, yeah I do...I don't fucking care about Juvie hall camps! Expose them all and bring justice to the kids, but that's not the issue here! It's not relevent to the discussion at hand, ok ? Jesus fucking christ....keep your Quixotic crusade to yourself, or make another thread , what ever it takes...I don't give a rats ass. It's not apple to apples. You're not dealing w/ US Military and those detainees aren't al Qaeda jihadist. There's a HUGE difference between problem kids and deovted terrorists for Allah.

I don't care if you connect dots from randomly selected points and draw your own conclusion. Abu Ghraib, we had a few bad seeds in there who got caught and punished, and rightfully so. That's NOT the norm for how we treat prisoners, nor is it ANYTHING like what happens down at Gitmo. Kwickie claims we "grab U.S. citizens off the streets" here in the US and sends 'em down to Gitmo. Where's the evidence? Nothing to support that claim as of yet.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, March 14, 2008 11:24 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

If it was JUST Abu Ghraib - and not also Bagram and GITMO and dozens of other places in Afghanistan and Iraq (for which I've posted article on article in the past) - and if there weren't hand-signed letters from Rumsfeld posted on the walls in those places actually authorizing extreme measures (also in articles I've posted in the past) - and if there weren't articles about secret prisons within GITMO - maybe you'd have a point. But you don't.

So go

yourself. It's the only nice thing I'm going to wish for you today.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, March 14, 2008 8:12 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
If it was JUST Abu Ghraib - and not also Bagram and GITMO and dozens of other places in Afghanistan and Iraq (for which I've posted article on article in the past) - and if there weren't hand-signed letters from Rumsfeld posted on the walls in those places actually authorizing extreme measures (also in articles I've posted in the past) - and if there weren't articles about secret prisons within GITMO - maybe you'd have a point. But you don't.

So go yourself. It's the only nice thing I'm going to wish for you today.

You gotta stop believing that shit you read on Moveon.org and DU.COM. Seriously, you're living in an alternate reality that isn't founded in fact.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, March 14, 2008 8:32 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Did you have a nice fuck ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, March 14, 2008 11:28 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Did you have a nice fuck ?

And you wonder why no one takes you seriously ?

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Saturday, March 15, 2008 8:29 AM

Okay, I'm going to jump in with my 2.5 cents worth here.

I do not like either the Republicans or the Democrats. I have been critical of every administration since Nixon took office (only because that is when I became politically aware) and remarkably find the Carter administration the least offensive because it accomplished less during it's time in power. I'm an equal opportunity protester and think it is the ultimate act of patriotism to object when the government in power takes actions that move away from the democratic ideals this country was founded on.

Which means I have been called un-American by those both on the left and right. I no longer bother to take offense.

Here are my points:

1) The airborne assault of 9/11 was the first successful coordinated attack on our country by a foreign based criminal organization in 225 years of existence, and resulted in just over 3000 deaths. (I'm not denying the embassy bombings by al-Qaeda in 1998 or the U.S.S. Cole bombing in 2000 ... I'm just talking about coordinated attacks on U.S. soil.) These were not the actions of a country or political group. They were crimes committed by criminals. Yet as a result of those criminal actions we have launched "The War on Terrorism", invaded 2 countries, overthrown a government and have no exit strategy or the promise of a stable, locally supported government surviving in either nation.

I'll pull the following numbers from Wikipedia while openly acknowledging that this is no more reliable a news source than CNN or Fox News, but even if the numbers are wildly off, the most extreme estimate of how much lower they should be would still make my point:

Afghanistan -
Afghan security forces:
~5,820 killed
Northern Alliance:
~200 killed
Coalition:
~760 killed
Contractors
~83 Killed In Action
Civilian dead (estimated):
~ 7,300-14,000

Iraq -
Iraqi combatant dead (invasion period)(estimated): ~7,600-10,800
Insurgents dead (post-Saddam):
~19,429 per U.S. military (22 September 2007)
Iraqi Security Forces (post-Saddam, Coalition allies) Police/military killed:
~10,020
Coalition dead:
~(3,987 US, 175 UK, 133 other)~ Total 4,293
Contractors dead:
~(US 236) ~Total 1,019

===============================

All Iraqi violent deaths (survey by Opinion Research Business) as of August 2007:
~ 1,033,000

OR

Total deaths (all excess deaths) (survey by Johns Hopkins / Lancet) - As of June 2006:
~ 654,965 **

OR

All Iraqi violent deaths (survey by Iraqi Health Ministry for the World Health Organization) as of June 2006:
~ 151,000

**Total deaths include all additional deaths due to increased lawlessness, degraded infrastructure, poorer healthcare, etc.

===============================

Point is, no matter which numbers you add up or how much you change those numbers to match your position in the argument, that's a lot of death dealing for our 3000 lost souls. Especially when you take into account that very few of those victims on any side had any real relationship to the 9/11 attack at all.

2) One foreign based coordinated criminal attack on our shores in 225 years resulting in roughly 3000 deaths means an average of 13.3 deaths per year. Over the time span of 1997 to 2006, the number of instances of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter in the United States was 164,903. In 2001, when foreign criminals hijacked 4 planes and causes approxamately 3000 deaths, local based criminals caused 15,980 deaths (according to U.S. Department of Justice statistics). With a population of just under 285 million people in this country at the time, that means that your chances that year of dying from a foreign based criminal terrorist attack were 0.00105%, but your chances of dying from a locally based criminal attack were 0.005611%. So if my government wants to spend nine billion dollars ($9,000,000,000.00) per month to keep me safe, they should pour it all into local and federal law enforcement, not pissing it away halfway around the globe!

3) The conservative position has always been to let businesses regulate themselves and let the free market economy police their behavior. I agree. It is not my government's job to protect me from terrorists blowing up a plane ... it is the airline's job to have better on board security than they had. Plane hijackings were nothing new ... there were plenty in the 1970's and 1980's. The fact that these thugs found it that easy to gain access to the cockpit appalls me; and the fact the government responded with shampoo and nail clipper embargoes, seriously restricting the amount of democratic freedom I enjoy by passing the Homeland Security Act and the Patriot Act, declaring people "enemy combatants" to avoid violating the Geneva Convention and suggesting radio stations stop playing John Lennon's "Imagine" because it might give aid and succor to the enemy. It all appalls me! Why didn't we just require stronger doors and security on the airplane cockpit?

4) I don't care who lied. They all have. Calling it pathological is a bit much; it's a job requirement. But there are degrees. Carter's profession that he had lusted in his heart gave me concern he might not be able to keep a national security matter secret if it bothered his conscience. All the democrat bashers who want to point out how much of a liar Clinton was need to take a chill pill and recognize he didn't lie any more than any other cheating husband who tried to hide the deed ... he just did it under oath. And there is no question that Bush has reimagined his statements as time has passed. He has knowingly told untruths, national security requires it. So now we're just arguing about whether it's a good kind of lying or not in each instance. Has Bush told more lies than Clinton? I don't know that you can prove it either way, and I don't care.

5) Has Bush stubbornly refused to acknowledge making bad judgements when the majority of public opinion is calling him on it? Yes. The pride and hubris of the man know no end. Notice any of the Republican candidates for President campaigning on what a brilliant and noble idea the war in Iraq was? Nope, because they were all trying to align themselves with the opinion of the American public in general. It's what you do to get elected. And the public is not wrong ... they weren't wrong about Vietnam and they are not wrong now. But you will never hear this man say "Yes, the invasion of Iraq was a bad idea" because his whole legacy is based on it now. Pride and hubris.

And by the way, I like none of the motley crowd that are jostling elbows to become king of the land now. I have long said anyone who would be really good at being President of the United States is too damn smart to want the job.

Blane

"Sure as I know anything I know this, they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten, they’ll swing back to the belief that they can make people… better. And I do not hold to that. So no more running. I aim to misbehave." - Malcolm Reynolds

"The true danger is when liberty is nibbled away, for expedience, and by parts." - Edmund Burke

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Saturday, March 15, 2008 4:13 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Rap

If you had reads any of the posts I referred to you would have known that they didn't come from Moveon (MoveOn doesn't do news) or DU.com (whatever that is).

But you NEVER discuss facts with --- anyone. So really, why should I try with you ?

So why don't you do something useful like a good little boy and go

yourself, again.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, March 15, 2008 6:51 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rap

If you had reads any of the posts I referred to you would have known that they didn't come from Moveon (MoveOn doesn't do news) or DU.com (whatever that is).

But you NEVER discuss facts with --- anyone. So really, why should I try with you ?

So why don't you do something useful like a good little boy and go yourself, again.

I discuss ONLY facts. Unlike you.In the 5 post I count by you in this thread, you offer up exactly zero facts, just wild accusations which aren't cited or sourced. Instead, you waste time and board space w/ juvenile vulgarities which avoid the issue and show your lack of mental capacity. Your last 3 post are nothing but cries for help instead of attempts to discuss anything of substance.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, March 16, 2008 12:28 AM

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm
http://myspace.com/911pressfortruth
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1
http://www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

You can discuss these - at your leisure ..

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060329-2.html
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1539468.stm
http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Content/2004-10/13rai.cfm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/apr/23/usa
http://www.journalismcenter.org/awards/nadya_labi.html
http://outside.away.com/outside/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html
http://www.teenliberty.org/An_American_GULAG.htm
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/1216
07dnprotycyearend.2b704ee.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080302/ap_on_re_us/juvenile_detention
http://www.martinleeanderson.com/index.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7068600.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7039912.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7068600.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7046272.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/03/brown.fema.emails/
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/03/13/khadr-interrogators.html
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/edlabor_dem/rel101007b.html

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, March 16, 2008 5:34 AM

America loves a winner!

From the top, 1st link

Tony Snow asks the question of Vice President Cheney...

Q - " the White House has never argued that Saddam was directly involved in September 11th, correct? "

Quote:
A - "So we've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden [sic] was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming. But there -- that's a separate proposition from the question of whether or not there was some kind of a relationship between the Iraqi government, Iraqi intelligence services and the al Qaeda organization" - V.P. Cheney

This directly contradicts the theme of this thread, and Cheney's remarks fall in line w/ exactly what I've stated all along. Thanks for citing evidence which backs up my point of view.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, March 16, 2008 5:45 AM

America loves a winner!

Bush, reacting to why he doesn't obsess over UBL every waking moment of every day

" The idea of focusing on one person is uh..it really indicates the people don't understand the scope of the mission. Terror is bigger than 1 person, and he's a person who has been marginalized... "

It's clear to me that Bush thinks UBL has been knocked down a few pegs, is on the run and while we'll get to him eventually, Bush isn't going to build up the myth of Usama by stressing over him at each and every turn. It's a smart tactical play on Bush's part, to minimalize UBL's importance to the public, while still hunting for him behind the scenes.

Again, another one of your links clearly defines and supports my point of view. Bravo.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, March 16, 2008 8:49 AM

Okay, I get that my post was a little off topic, and that explains why it is being ignored.

But I'd just like to ask RAP two questions.

How did this administration convince you that terrorists are such a big scary threat to you?

You do realize your chances of being killed in a car crash or a household accident are much greater than the possibility that terrorists can threaten you (and I'm talking about the time before the war on terror supposedly started making us all safer), don't you?

Blane

=======================

"Sure as I know anything I know this, they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten, they’ll swing back to the belief that they can make people… better. And I do not hold to that. So no more running. I aim to misbehave." - Malcolm Reynolds

"The true danger is when liberty is nibbled away, for expedience, and by parts." - Edmund Burke

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Sunday, March 16, 2008 9:36 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by blanetalk:
Okay, I get that my post was a little off topic, and that explains why it is being ignored.

But I'd just like to ask RAP two questions.

How did this administration convince you that terrorists are such a big scary threat to you?

It didn't need to be convince me. I saw what happened on 9/11. I saw what happened in NYC, etc... Living near Atlanta, it's very noticable when there are no planes in the sky. None at all. Also, I realize the importance of helping those who I'll never meet, be they in NYC after a terrorist attack, or in S.E.Asia, after a tsunami.

Quote:
You do realize your chances of being killed in a car crash or a household accident are much greater than the possibility that terrorists can threaten you (and I'm talking about the time before the war on terror supposedly started making us all safer), don't you?

Blane

That's more of a statement than a question, so I don't know how to answer, other than this.... it's not about my PERSONAL safety. It's about stoping evil when/ where we can. Something so premeditated as terrorism affects all humanity, all of civilization, not just those who died or were injured. Accidents are one thing, but it's ridiculous to compare any accident to an overt , intentional act of terrorism, murder, etc. If people stood by and did nothing in the face of terrorism, we'd still have blacks being lynched here in the South. But folks stood up to the violence and threats, and if we did more of the same today, we could do even more good.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, March 16, 2008 11:20 AM

ANTIMASON

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

That's more of a statement than a question, so I don't know how to answer, other than this.... it's not about my PERSONAL safety. It's about stoping evil when/ where we can. Something so premeditated as terrorism affects all humanity....

but dont you see, the great flaw in this line of thinking is that you CAN stop this by conventional means.. its akin to pre-empting a car accident or lighting strike. the risk is disproportionate in relation to the hype that your side is issuing. however, because of our intervention, we are setting ourselves up for something that never had to be..

the solution is not "regime change", intervention, and increased (world)policement. that is what causes the resentment towards us, that later results in an individual criminal attack

for example, let me give you a hypothetical:

i am a young college student, mentally unstable, suicidal with a lot of resentment, and dangerous. for whatever reason, i am motivated to commit a suicide/homicide event among my classmates. i could hop on the internet and find 100k ways to do this, including homemade bombs and chemical weapons. i choose my method, get to campus, and murder untold amounts of people

in your opinion, is there any circumstance under which ANY authority might have prevented this criminal attack?

if i commit myself to death, there is no way i can fail. the government is useless in this instance, absent complete tyranny and authoritarianism. this kind of "terror" attack can ONLY be prevented by friends, family, the co-workers.. people who can appeal to this person emotionally or reasonably. you could argue that this is the only defense against criminal activity, is obedience to morality. we need to recognize that this is a spiritual battle going on

the only type of "terror" attack that can be prevented are those organized by intelligence or xyz conspirator groups, who may be working on behalf of larger interests, in the business of international espionage etc. 9/11 qualifies, because the "coincidences" are untold and increasingly profound; and it never would have happened, had the CIA, the whitehouse, the Pentagon, the FAA, NORAD not been too complicit, negligent, or too incompetent to do their jobs right. and, some would argue it conveniently benefited a certain neo-agenda to prevent Saddam from switching over to the EURO..

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Something so premeditated as terrorism affects all humanity...., all of civilization, not just those who died or were injured. Accidents are one thing, but it's ridiculous to compare any accident to an overt , intentional act of terrorism, murder, etc. If people stood by and did nothing in the face of terrorism, we'd still have blacks being lynched here in the South. But folks stood up to the violence and threats, and if we did more of the same today, we could do even more good.

its a moral issue Rap.. not something we're going to solve by ramming our tanks and destroyers in their faces and overthrowing elected governments

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Sunday, March 16, 2008 11:33 AM

Rap, well, I was making the statistical analysis on accidents to make it personal to you. But in point of fact, in my previous post I proved statistically that any human being living in this country is much more in danger from the "premeditated terrorism" perpetrated on a daily basis in this country from local criminals than from foreign criminal organizations who, except for one notable exception, have not been able to do jack to us. People in NYC, Atlanta, Houston or anywhere else in this country face real danger every day.

YOU SAID, "Accidents are one thing, but it's ridiculous to compare any accident to an overt , intentional act of terrorism, murder, etc. If people stood by and did nothing in the face of terrorism, we'd still have blacks being lynched here in the South. But folks stood up to the violence and threats, and if we did more of the same today, we could do even more good."

I agree. So to me that means that we stop spending nine billion dollars a month fighting "terrorists" who managed to kill 3000 people one time in this country and pour it into our law enforcement system to help prevent the more than 15,000 murders that happen in this country each year. That is a greater danger. I'm not worried about al-Qaeda when my girlfriend can't feel safe walking down the street at night.

The fearmongering this administration had promulgated is misplaced. In the big picture, the terrorists are not as big a danger to people as many other more mundane evils.

But the administration just needed a new Boogie Man since the Communists are no longer a credible threat, eh?

Blane

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"Sure as I know anything I know this, they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten, they’ll swing back to the belief that they can make people… better. And I do not hold to that. So no more running. I aim to misbehave." - Malcolm Reynolds

"The true danger is when liberty is nibbled away, for expedience, and by parts." - Edmund Burke

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Sunday, March 16, 2008 11:54 AM

KIRKULES

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Originally posted by blanetalk:

1) The airborne assault of 9/11 was the first successful coordinated attack on our country by a foreign based criminal organization in 225 years of existence, and resulted in just over 3000 deaths. (I'm not denying the embassy bombings by al-Qaeda in 1998 or the U.S.S. Cole bombing in 2000 ... I'm just talking about coordinated attacks on U.S. soil.)

I think you have pretty well spelled out why we have something to fear from Al-qaeda. It has nothing to do with the Bush administration, it has to do with the Al-qaeda's own threats and actions. The fact that they did pull off the attacks you mentioned and have promised more is enough reason to react offensively to stop future attacks.

You also make a typical false connection between the war in Iraq and 911. The war in Iraq has been going on since Desert Storm in 1991 and the second invasion was more because of Saddam's firing on our airplanes in the no fly zone and breaking the agreement he made to end the 1991 conflict. The only 911 connection to the Iraq war is the need to show both the terrorists and the dictator thugs that support them that they won't be allowed to attack the US with impunity in the future. Recent statements by Bin Laden and the fact the Libya gave up WMDs are evidence that they got the message.
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Afghanistan -
Afghan security forces:
~5,820 killed
Northern Alliance:
~200 killed
Coalition:
~760 killed
Contractors
~83 Killed In Action
Civilian dead (estimated):
~ 7,300-14,000

Iraq -
Iraqi combatant dead (invasion period)(estimated): ~7,600-10,800
Insurgents dead (post-Saddam):
~19,429 per U.S. military (22 September 2007)
Iraqi Security Forces (post-Saddam, Coalition allies) Police/military killed:
~10,020
Coalition dead:
~(3,987 US, 175 UK, 133 other)~ Total 4,293
Contractors dead:
~(US 236) ~Total 1,019

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2) One foreign based coordinated criminal attack on our shores in 225 years resulting in roughly 3000 deaths means an average of 13.3 deaths per year. Over the time span of 1997 to 2006, the number of instances of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter in the United States was 164,903.

While the legitimate statistics(second set of stats are bogus) you gave are regrettable, in your own words you demonstrate that they're not as impressive as violent deaths in the US. I'd also throw in automobile deaths and deaths due to medical mistakes. People who claim to look at the statistics should by your reasoning be much more concerned about preventable accidental deaths than the deaths due to war. I don't remember anyone posting a thread lamenting the auto related deaths in the US.
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5) Has Bush stubbornly refused to acknowledge making bad judgements when the majority of public opinion is calling him on it?

Bush's stubbornness is the only reason we are currently on track to win the war in Iraq. Though I do give the surge some credit for speeding up our inevitable victory, the Iraqis turning against a Al-qaeda and high casualties among Sadr's militia are the primary reason things have turned in our favor. Bush listened to the Generals, who told him that it takes a long time and persistent effort to defeat an insurgency.

Your boogie man argument does have some merit, but the while you see an attempt to scare the American people, I see an attempt to keep the easily distracted American people from losing focus and allowing another more catastrophic event to occur due to lack of vigilance.

Also, nice to see a new name in the RWED. You make some excellent points and your tone is refreshing to hear in RWED.

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Monday, March 17, 2008 6:03 AM