Obama's speech, and my daughter's tears by RocketJock

Thanks for sharing. Racisism is anacronistic bullshit and really needs to come to an end, and so too is getting passed up for a job because the company needs to fill government quotas and your white skin doesn't fit the bill. Hate crimes should not ever be tried as hate crimes, because a crime is a crime is a crime and should be punished for it based simply on the fact that one person wronged another and broke the law in doing so.

I don't trust the man though. I trust him even less because of the hold he seems to have over so many people. At least most of us are in agreement that George W. Bush can't be trusted at all.

Don't EVER trust a politician.... particularly one from Illinois and the Mayor Daily Democratic Machine.

I'll be voting for Mayor McCheese come November.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 5:32 AM

PIRATECAT

Prejudice-prejudge, Bigotry- all you can eat catfish night nope not eaten there, Racism-darwin's theory proves I'm right in my superiority. The forests are cut down but the old stumps are still their with moss on em. Blacks say the same thing whites say cause their my friends. It was so simple when Ike Turner was the most hated black man in America. The good ole days when everybody piled on.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 5:41 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I'll be voting for Mayor McCheese come November.

Another victim of the McCheese propaganda machine, sounds like to me. And this from the man who said "never trust a politician!" You obviously have some reading to do: http://www.dannebohm.com/mayormccheeseandcivilunrest

http://ollysonions.blogspot.com/2008/01/education-standards-scandal-in
.html

Seriously, though. I thought it was a very important speech and one no other candidate could have made. I think Jon Stewart summed it up best: "So, at 11 a.m. on a Tuesday, a prominant politician spoke to Americans about race as though they were adults."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 5:48 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I missed the first few minutes of Obama's speech, but managed to catch most of it.

Up until then I thought Obama was an empty suit. Someone who said pleasant, nice-sounding but essentially meaningless things to get elected. But when Obama chose to tackle racism and poverty head-on, he earned my vote.

"The enemy" is not black or white or brown or young or old or male, female, straight or gay. We all have far more in common that what separates us.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 9:25 AM

LEADB

I thought he definitely stepped up to the plate. I had been worried he didn't have the chops to handle the controversy; I think he did well.

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 10:42 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:

I'm just looking to state that, whatever his political fortunes may turn out to be, in his speech, Barack Obama said truths that the country has needed put on the table of discourse for too long! And whether he wins the nomination, or the general election, or not, our nation owes him a debt of gratitude for daring to speak the complex and fundamental truths of a complex and fundamental issue.

I think the reason this speech will hurt Obama's chances of getting elected is not because of the content of his speech, or the content of Wright's sermons for that matter. The problem is the idea that we need to have more discussions about race in this country. We've been talking about race in this country non-stop for my entire life and I'm sick of it. I think a lot of other Americans are also. Bringing up race just leads to the inevitable finger pointing that follows. I'm tired of being told I'm a racist because of things that happened before my birth. The black community needs to take a look in the mirror and start to realize that many of the residual effects of racism from the past are perpetuated and exacerbated by Democrat politicians like Obama using race for political gain. Obama wont get more white votes by bring up a subject that has been used by politicians to make white people feel guilty and uncomfortable their entire lives. Many of us were raised from birth to believe that all men are equal and have lived our entire lives believing that. It doesn't help the cause of blacks to lump us all together and label us racists just because of the color of our skin. I'm not saying that is what Obama is doing, but Rev. Wright and others are. Just the fact that this subject has been brought up at all is enough to lose the election for Obama in my opinion.

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 11:18 AM

Not going to get too into this (not a big fan of politics over the internet) but I did find one part of his speech funny: the part where he claimed he had

Quote:
a white grandmother who worked on a bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth while he was overseas.

Take it from a person from Ft. Leavenworth area that's plain wrong.
That aside-I'm reading the speech now and it just doesn't speak to me, to be honest.

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 11:28 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Being the child of Polish immigrants I had absolutely nothing to do with slavery and racism in this country. That doesn't mean I didn't benefit, though.

Where does racism (and sexism and ageism) come from ? My opinion - it comes from a shortage of opportunities and the desire of the dominant group to keep them corralled.

One concrete example - medical school. There are always far many more applicants to medical school than there are seats. And virtually all applicants are more than qualified. Back in my day - no women need apply. And that was despite the fact that many supposed 'issues' of women doctors - some going back hundreds of years - too emotional, too flighty, too tender, too stupid and illogical, and too valuable as womanly women to turn them into hardened doctors - were debunked many, many years ago. No women need apply.

You could look at any discriminatory 'ism' and find the same cause at work.

That answer is to not only address the biases we are taught, but to create more opportunities so everyone has a vested interest in the system.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 11:28 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Tankobite:
Not going to get too into this (not a big fan of politics over the internet) but I did find one part of his speech funny: the part where he claimed he had
Quote:
a white grandmother who worked on a bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth while he was overseas.

Take it from a person from the Ft. Leavenworth area that's plain wrong.
That aside-I'm reading the speech now and it just doesn't speak to me, to be honest.

-----------------------------------------------------------

I think they built B-17's in automobile plants in Fairfax Kansas during the war. A friend of mine said his mom worked there during the war. Obama was probably trying to associate his grandmother with the patriotic image of "Rosie the Riveter".

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 11:36 AM

Aye, I have no problem with that-it's politics. But they didn't do it at Fort Leavenworth. That's the Military DB and the Command and General Staff College, no factories here.

Edit: For a humerous look at the speech, I give you the Onion

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/black_guy_asks_nation_for_change

Quote:
Black Guy Asks Nation For Change

The Onion is so damn funny sometimes.

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 12:59 PM

EMBERS

Thank you for your comments, which were based on personal experience, which means all the more in the on-going discussion....

I hope that others who haven't seen the speech by Barack Obama will take the 37 minutes and listen:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ypjxp9
It is a great speech, one of the greatest I've heard in my life time.

I'll be supporting Obama because of his intelligence, and calm deliberation. I think he can bring a thoughtful grace to the office of President that we haven't seen in this country in ... well, a heck of a long time!

New Firefly fans should check this out: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=15816

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 3:52 PM

FLETCH2

It was a great speech.

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 4:14 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
...the reason this speech will hurt Obama's chances of getting elected is not because of the content of his speech, or the content of Wright's sermons for that matter. The problem is the idea that we need to have more discussions about race in this country. We've been talking about race in this country non-stop for my entire life and I'm sick of it

And so is Obama. The point that I got out of his speech is to get PAST it.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Saturday, March 22, 2008 6:16 PM

Racism, though it is a problem that needs to be remedied, not only in America but the entire world, is very low on my list of priorities for things that need to be taken care of first in this country.

When the housing crisis is over, hyper-inflation is over, when the Government actually recognizes and admits that the Federal Reserve has put us in a recession which 50/50 will become a depression, when the Iraq "war" is finally over, when Haliburton has to pay taxes, and when the Constitution in general stops getting pissed on by the people who claim to protect it.... then MAYBE... you can come to me that next presidential race on the subject of racism/sexism.

Although I doubt it because I can probably think of about 10 other topics which should mean more to Americans today if I gave it even 5 more minutes thought.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, March 23, 2008 3:06 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
...housing crisis... the Iraq "war" is finally over... when Haliburton has to pay taxes... when the Constitution in general stops getting pissed on by the people who claim to protect it...

So, I'm confused... You're not voting for Obama why?
Cuz dude, McCain has said he can picture 100 years in Iraq, he's all about military. And if you think he's gonna stop giving breaks to Haliburton and companies like it, you really need to pull your head out. Everything you've talked about there came from Bush and those like him. It's madness to vote for the same kind of guy and expect a different result.
Obama has said nothing, as far as I can tell, that you would disagree with. End the war, end tax breaks for big corporations who are sending jobs overseas, stimulate the economy, not with a few checks for a few hundred dollars, but with better education and better business models and new companies doing new things, help those in the housing crisis rather than just helping out the banks. Also the fact that he was a civil rights lawyer, has studied and taught the Constitution, and has endless respect for it, thinks the warrantless wiretaps, etc. are a disgrace... Have you been listening at all? Seriously?
Just curious.

You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.

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Sunday, March 23, 2008 4:35 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by Tankobite:
Not going to get too into this (not a big fan of politics over the internet) but I did find one part of his speech funny: the part where he claimed he had
Quote:
a white grandmother who worked on a bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth while he was overseas.

Take it from a person from Ft. Leavenworth area that's plain wrong.
That aside-I'm reading the speech now and it just doesn't speak to me, to be honest.

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

There were bomb assembly plants in Kansas City, which is not too far from Ft Levanworth. It is entirely possible that she lived in Ft Leavenworth and drove to the plant.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

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Sunday, March 23, 2008 5:18 PM

REGINAROADIE

I'm glad to have read this and your recollection of your daughter having such a profound experience involving politics that was actually uplifting and not disillusioning. I remember Obama's speech and it did feel like I was seeing why people are so caught up with Obama and why he would be the best choice in running the U.S. At times, it feels like the whole Democratic race is seeing two people fighting over which one gets to be the Saviour. And all the arguments that Clinton is hurling at Obama seem merit less, and yet people actually take them seriously. Like the whole "I have more experience than he does". I actually read an article that the best Presidents have been ones that have had little experience in terms of politics. The Founding Fathers, Lincoln, JFK. I think getting new blood into the White House that hasn't been tainted by the HIV of Capitol Hill and lobbyists would be a lot better than a spawn of big business and presidential legacy. Look what happened with the last guy that did that.

As for the pastor that started the controversy, I guess my reaction to it shows how in the dark I am over stuff like this. When I first saw the video of him, I thought it was a sketch. I thought it was some sort of act, and maybe it is to one degree or another. But I'm surprised to hear that pastors and religious guys like him exist on the other side. Usually the fire and brimstone preachers are on the Republican side.

And yes, immediately after Obama's speech, CNN and Sean Hannity were attacking it and saying that it was a hollow victory. But THE DAILY SHOW commented on that and raised the point that all the big, important and inspirational speeches over the centuries are only revered in context. When they were given, they probably didn't have much impact and were attacked by the conservative pundits of that time.

So yes, I agree with Obama, I think he will get the Democratic nom, and I do honestly think that he has a good chance to be the next U.S. President.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Sunday, March 23, 2008 6:06 PM

No, it isn't.

Considering that gasoline was being rationed and the commute to work thing is a modern phenomena. Not to mention its doubtful someone who could afford a car (especially since Obama used the words "survived the depression" so I doubt they were rich) in the wake of the Great Depression (or that a woman would be able to drive it, remember it was a different time back then). Add to the fact that she wouldn't be able to live in Fort Leavenworth, which destroys that part of the commute theory. And for the clincher, his exact words were

Quote:
bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth

, so I think that puts that theory to rest.

Like I said, I'm not criticizing him for it; I just thought it was funny.

Also, as to the point about all great and important speeches not being revered in their time...sounds like you guys revere this one already.

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

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Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:25 PM

CEBO

I personnally do not favor one cannadate over another. The reason why i do not is because

Billary is running on sexisum

obama's running on raceisum

and Mcain is running on I am the only republican... vote for me!!!

So i'm going to vote for mcain and hope he dies in office. Then maybe we can get a president who will get something done!!!

heven forbid that from happening

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Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:04 PM

HKCAVALIER

Tankobite,

What's your point? Who lies about a thing like that?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, March 24, 2008 3:28 AM

Oddly enough, you're the first person to hint that he's "lying" about it.

My point only is: as a person who lives in the Fort Leavenworth area, I heard my town mentioned, and then used in a way that wasn't possible. I chalked it up as a mistake (though why he'd know Fort Leavenworth's name is a bit odd) or that he simply wanted pad his family history by using a military sounding name to cater to that vote. Don't take it any further then that; I don't like discussing my politics with people on the internet, so I don't.

Though you do ask a valid question, if he his lying about a thing like this, what does that say about him and they way he's been portraying himself as a candidate of change?

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

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Monday, March 24, 2008 3:54 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by Tankobite:
No, it isn't.

Considering that gasoline was being rationed and the commute to work thing is a modern phenomena. Not to mention its doubtful someone who could afford a car (especially since Obama used the words "survived the depression" so I doubt they were rich) in the wake of the Great Depression (or that a woman would be able to drive it, remember it was a different time back then). Add to the fact that she wouldn't be able to live in Fort Leavenworth, which destroys that part of the commute theory. And for the clincher, his exact words were
Quote:
bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth
, so I think that puts that theory to rest.

Like I said, I'm not criticizing him for it; I just thought it was funny.

Also, as to the point about all great and important speeches not being revered in their time...sounds like you guys revere this one already.

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

No commuting, car pooling or buses during the war? http://www.nps.gov/pwro/collection/website/jean.htm

Please do some research before you state "facts".
ETA: and you can, in fact, live in Leavenworth Kansas.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

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Monday, March 24, 2008 4:25 AM

ROCKETJOCK

It sounds to me as though Obama was recalling something his Grandmother might have mentioned in passing over the dinner table, or at a family reunion, and got a detail wrong. Or, as suggested, she might have lived one place and worked at another. (Defense plant workers did, I believe, get the preferred ration sticker for gasoline. (There was, according to Wikipedia, no actual shortage of gasoline, but rationing gas was a good way to cut down on the use of automobile tires--which were in short supply.))

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Monday, March 24, 2008 6:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:

No commuting, car pooling or buses during the war? http://www.nps.gov/pwro/collection/website/jean.htm

Please do some research before you state "facts".
ETA: and you can, in fact, live in Leavenworth Kansas.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

I never said it didn't happen, I meant that it didn't happen as often as it did today; you didn't take what I said cars to mean that there were no cars in WWII, did you?

Also http://www.fff.org/freedom/0395d.asp,

Quote:
military preemption of public transportation interfered with intercity travel by civilians, and rationing of tires and gasoline made commuting to work very difficult for many workers.

is what I was using. I still think its unlikely because of how small Leavenworth's population is today and how far away KC is even with modern vehicle speeds (~45 minutes ) it just doesn't seem likely that the government would bother paying for a few people from Leavenworth to come down to KC to work, when there would still be plenty of people living in KC who were unemployed at the time. But this is still irrelevant because you're just saying that it is possible that she lived there, and there's still no proof of it.

Amazingly, I do know that you "CAN" in fact live in Leavenworth, Kansas because I do. However living in Leavenworth and commuting to work in Kansas City is till a far cry from (and I'm quoting directly from the speech here) "a bomb assembly line at Fort Leavenworth", and until you prove that she lived there, it doesn't make sense. It is also possible to live in Fort Leavenworth, but you have to be stationed there and since his grandfather was overseas fighting with Patton's Third Army and that still doesn't explain how she worked on the nonexistent bomber factories in Fort Leavenworth.

I suppose though the next big flaw in the statement is probably that his grandparents are from El Dorado and Wichita area (and that's where I've read that the grandmother worked-at the Boeing plant, which is there) but Wichita is several hours away (on the order of four or five) from Leavenworth by modern car travel. Besides, you're shifting the burden of proof; you need to prove that there was a bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth at this time, which there wasn't. I've contacted the Fort Leavenworth Historical society on this one.

Finally, I'll remind you that the exact word were "bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth". Not Kansas City, not Wichita, but Fort Leavenworth. Arguing about a commute is irrelevant because the commute would have to be to Fort Leavenworth, not from it. Take my post for what it was; a guy who hears about the town his family settled in, in the news, but in a way that doesn't make any sense. I just thought it was funny and I still do. If I were you, I'd shrug it off as a slip of the tongue (like I did...)

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

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Monday, March 24, 2008 2:48 PM

KIRKULES

Looks like Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius got the story right in her speech in January.

"They married in the early days of World War II. Stanley enlisted in the Army shortly after Pearl Harbor was bombed, and he served under Gen. George S. Patton. Obama's mother was born on the Army base Ft. Leavenworth, and Madelyn worked on a bomber assembly line."

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-obama30jan30,1
,4880993.story

Sounds like Obama's mom was born at the military base in Leavenworth and his grandmother Madelyn worked at a bomber plant somewhere else in Kansas.

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Monday, March 24, 2008 2:56 PM

Yeah, I saw that article and I wrote to the author about it. Still awaiting a response.

http://genealogy.about.com/od/aframertrees/p/barack_obama.htm says

Quote:
Stanley Ann DUNHAM was born on 27 November 1942 in Wichita, Kansas and died 7 November 1995 of ovarian cancer.

which makes sense if the grandmother was working in Wichita on the Boeing line like I've read. Fort Leavenworth just doesn't make sense.

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

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Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
...housing crisis... the Iraq "war" is finally over... when Haliburton has to pay taxes... when the Constitution in general stops getting pissed on by the people who claim to protect it...

So, I'm confused... You're not voting for Obama why?
Cuz dude, McCain has said he can picture 100 years in Iraq, he's all about military. And if you think he's gonna stop giving breaks to Haliburton and companies like it, you really need to pull your head out. Everything you've talked about there came from Bush and those like him. It's madness to vote for the same kind of guy and expect a different result.
Obama has said nothing, as far as I can tell, that you would disagree with. End the war, end tax breaks for big corporations who are sending jobs overseas, stimulate the economy, not with a few checks for a few hundred dollars, but with better education and better business models and new companies doing new things, help those in the housing crisis rather than just helping out the banks. Also the fact that he was a civil rights lawyer, has studied and taught the Constitution, and has endless respect for it, thinks the warrantless wiretaps, etc. are a disgrace... Have you been listening at all? Seriously?
Just curious.

DISCLAIMER: You know how I get in here PR, so don't let my reply suprise you....

So you've bought into his bullshit line too. He's a snake with a silver tounge, and the fact that so many people are so happy about him makes me trust him even less. He's a politician, and more importantly, he's a politician from Mayor Daley's machine in Illinois.

If he cared one minute for civil rights and had "endless respect" for the Constitution, he would be just as adamant against the Real ID act as Ron Paul is. As it is, the only reason he doesn't support the Real ID as it is written is because of the high costs being passed onto the states. (Of course a Democratic presidential nominee would be thinking about paying this at a Federal level and we'd all be paying for it anyways with the higher taxes we'll be enevitably paying. At least those of us who are working anyways).

Now, dont' get me wrong, I agree there needs to be a ton of change. I'm sure as hell not voting for McCain because I think the only man running from the start who was more blatenly evil on face value was "Mr 9/11". I had a little party when he dropped out of the race.

Sadly, as it stands now, Hilary has my vote. As sick as it sounds, she is the lesser of three evils. I would rather have socialized healthcare than Obama's mandated laws on healthcare for children. I've already had a thread about how his healhcare plan scares the shit out of me. To cure the helthcare problem, you're going to need a lot more than band-aids in the form of laws which could one day see the Goverment take your kids away from you. You need to go to the source. Ron Paul was the only candidate who would have taken the correct action on this.

And anyways, I prefer this column on racism by Jason Whitlock (a black man), than Obama's 37 minute speech of things that I've heard before, but not from a man the media is setting up to be the next Jesus.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7955740/Am-I-supposed-to-be-mad-abo
ut-LeBron?MSNHPHCP>1=39002

And his middle name is Hussain, and all the racist black preachers from the past are not going to convince me that if he isn't a Muslim that he doesn't at least have strong Muslim sympathies and loyalties given his background.

This isn't a racist thing. All three candidates are shit. Put Al Sharpton up there against them in November and I'll sure as hell vote for him before any one of those three.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:52 PM

Rocket,

That was a pretty moving and persuasive essay you wrote at the top of this thread. I checked out Obama's speech, and you're right. That was one hell of a tearjerker. Makes you feel hope and resolve and everything good that a leader is supposed to inspire.

I like Obama. He's a nice guy, and no matter how much I disagree with him, I respect his passion and his leadership.

But I don't think his vision is what is best for this country. None of the top 3 candidates are. He may be the best out of the lot, but I don't think voting is about settling. I think voting is about fighting for what you believe in.

And Obama simply doesn't stand for what I believe in. We agree about bring our troops home. But that's about it. For me, a more perfect union is far, far away from where he wants to take it.

--------------------------
It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.
--Justice Robert H. Jackson

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Wednesday, March 26, 2008 5:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
And his middle name is Hussain, and all the racist black preachers from the past are not going to convince me that if he isn't a Muslim that he doesn't at least have strong Muslim sympathies and loyalties given his background.

And so what if he is Muslim or has Muslim loyalties? Are you saying the American people should discriminate on a candidate based on his/her personal religious beliefs?

You may not be a racist, but what you said sounded like religious bigotry. Maybe bigotry against Muslims is not what you meant to advocate, but that is what it sounded like to me. If I am wrong, and I hope I am, please clarify what you mean. Thanks.

--------------------------
Of those around at the moment, Islam is the only one that has any appeal to me. But, of course, Islam has been tainted by other influences. The Muslims are behaving like Christians, I'm afraid.
--Arthur C. Clarke

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Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:07 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Well it's obvious that if I argue the points you won't listen, so I'll just leave it at this: Sorry man, but you lost all your cred with me when I found out you'd voted for Bush. Twice.

For those who are interested (I doubt there's many of you) Obama's been my pick since before this speech, since before any of his speeches, since before he went on the campaign trail, since the moment there were rumblings that this man might run and my dad loaned me Dreams From My Father. Whatever anyone might say about buying the lines or drinking the kool aid, I could not care less, because I wanted him to run for his intelligence and his attitudes. I wanted to be able to vote for someone who didn't make me feel ashamed of where this country's gone, someone who didn't just prove to the rest of the world that we were a mass of mindless, greedy, selfish, homogenic morons. Someone who would, from where I'm standing, work for things I think need to be worked for. Someone who could, in a word, lead.
I've seen nothing to make me change my opinion. That's all I have to say.

You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.

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Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:08 PM

ROCKETJOCK

In reply to Cantakesky:

As I said, I'm not trying to convert anybody politically. (At least, not on this thread.) And I've been on RWED enough to know that, if Obama's own words don't convince someone that he's fit to vote for, then anything I say will fall far short. I'm actually pleasantly surprised that this thread has lasted as long as it has without attracting any large number of that peculiar strain of RWED troll -- stocked on both ends of the political spectrum -- that we all know and, uh, know.

But I'd beg you, if you don't find any of the three front-runners acceptable, then find a third-party candidate to vote for, or write in the name of some personal hero.

Don't forget, if you don't vote, you lose your right-to-bitch license for the next four years.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
So, I'm confused... You're not voting for Obama why?

I know you didn't ask me, but I'll throw out my answer anyway.

His solutions are short-term, band-aid answers. It's like making your trip down a cliff more comfortable, but doesn't stop you from falling off or hitting bottom. His vision is to help Americans feel good, esp good enough to vote for him again. But it won't help, or at least allow, Americans to grow up.

1. Health care. The solution to health care has to tackle the root problem of overinflated costs. If those prices come down, you don't have to be insured to afford them. If someone says, "I won't sell you this life-saving service unless you pay me $1 million dollars," the solution is not to rob a football stadium and force everyone to chip in for the $1M. It is to allow competition to pressure the seller to offer the service for a reasonable and affordable price. Politicians won't break the current monopoly because they can't afford to lose the financial and political support of the pharmaceutical and medical industries. For some reason, corporations and outlandish profit-making in the medical industry are above the suspicion and condemnation of even very liberal politicians. The president I want has to EMPOWER Americans to have *more* health care options, not limit them to choices bought by industry.

2. Israel. Again, politicians can't afford to alienate the Jewish and evangelical Christian demographic. But the only foreign policy that makes sense is to tackle the root problem of meddling in other countries. An alliance has to give as well as take. The state of Israel has not given the American people a single thing except a reputation for supporting state-sponsored terrorism. It is time to let Israel grow up and leave the nest. If they want to torture people, they need to do it on their own dime. It is time for us to distance ourselves from a state that has documented human rights atrocities by every major HR organization as well as the UN. Supporting bullies makes enemies we don't need right now. The president I want has to EMPOWER Americans to break from this co-dependent relationship.

3. Foreign interference. First of all, we can no longer afford to send financial aid to other countries while passing that debt to our children and allowing our own citizens to go without. So we should just stop interfering, period. Secondly, most of the time, this aid goes to support bullies for the benefit of big business, which is a very bad foreign policy. Thirdly, if there is such dire evil that military intervention is necessary (as in Rwanda, Burma, Sudan), the intervention has to 1) authorized by Congress and the American people, 2) be comprised of volunteers from the military rather than ordered of the military, 3) engage only if a reasonable regime is available and able to occupy the power vacuum, and 4) have an intelligent exit strategy when everything goes wrong. The president I want has to EMPOWER Americans to refuse to be the pawn of big business, to take care of our own before meddling with others, and to engage in places that genuinely need our military intervention (where we do not engage because there is no profit).

4. Taxation. Americans need to be EMPOWERED to spend their own money however they need to spend it, not have 30-40% taken from them to spend however some legislator for sale might want to.

I can go on and on, but you get the idea.

--------------------------
The power of collecting and disbursing money at pleasure is the most dangerous power that can be entrusted to man.
--attributed to Horatio Bunce in Sockdolager

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Wednesday, March 26, 2008 9:26 PM

Quote:
And so what if he is Muslim or has Muslim loyalties? Are you saying the American people should discriminate on a candidate based on his/her personal religious beliefs?

You may not be a racist, but what you said sounded like religious bigotry. Maybe bigotry against Muslims is not what you meant to advocate, but that is what it sounded like to me. If I am wrong, and I hope I am, please clarify what you mean. Thanks.

Now is certainly not the time to play the race/religious card regarding this situation. To bar a Muslim from the higest political office in this country, for the time being, is simply a matter of common sense and more importantly National Security. I certainly don't want a Muslim running our country now, and I'm not ashamed in the least bit to say it.

This ain't your grandma's planet anymore. It's very very tiny and we're all on top of each other now. I already think our Government spends WAY too much time involved in foreign affairs, and I don't want a president who may have loyalties to Middle Eastern countries that will direct his judgement while in office.

Personally, not that I'm blaming Obama for doing it, I don't have any respect for anyone who uses their religion to get into office. Aside from Ron Paul, the entire Republican race has been a bunch of bullshit between running off of fearmongering and off of their religious platforms.

What I am accusing Obama, and more likely his campaign managers, of now is making this a whole Christian related scandal with his old preist and throwing off people from the trail that he was raised a Muslim.

Not running off his real religion, because it could potentially kill his political career early given the circumstances in the world, Obama is running just the same off his blackness the way that Hillary is running off her being a woman. It's a gimick. I'm calling it next election that there will be 2 female candidates, 3 black candidates and one mexican candidate. Then maybe we can get past this mystique of soemthing different finally and vote on the issues these people speak of without looking at their color. But it's new to people. They've never seen it before ever, at least not in front runners for president of the United States.

Obama has played the race card since he started campaiging, and this speech, no matter what the words spoken, are the epitome of his using the color of his skin to try to get into office.

What's her name was right, and I can't figure out why she was claimed a racist for saying so. If Obama was just another white dude, you would have never heard of him. If he was a woman, well... there was only enough room for one woman this year, maybe he would have had a chance in 2012.

That's the cold hard truth. Sorry state of affairs when the closer you are to stating the truth, the more in jeopardy of being labeled politically incorrect.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, March 26, 2008 9:53 PM

FLETCH2

Just a thought that needs to be thrown into the mix here. Family's build mythologies just as rich, detailed and often wrong as any other.

Case in point, my mother always claimed that my father proposed to her during a specific movie. She has told and retold that story over the years often with him sitting in the same room. That's a big event right? I mean you would expect someone to remember details about something like that in great detail?

The problem? That movie wasn't released until after they were already engaged so the chances are that he actually did the asking during a different movie. If you ask him about it he'll tell you sheepishly that he doesn't remember what movie it was, it's my mother that insists it's that one and he's prepared to accept her word on it.

So, it's perfectly possible that in the telling and retelling events get moved around in time. The family "myth" of the event, the version told to each other and to others may be flawed compared to the "real" version.

Knowing that it's possible that the version told to Obama and retold by him is the family myth version, the one where places and people get switched around timelines compacted and re-arranged by fickle memory.

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Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:50 PM

That's a good point Fletch.

You'd think that his campaign team would do a little research before writing that into his speech beforehand, ya know, with the Wikipedia just begging to prove everyone wrong. Or in your folks case, IMDB.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
To bar a Muslim from the higest political office in this country, for the time being, is simply a matter of common sense and more importantly National Security. I certainly don't want a Muslim running our country now, and I'm not ashamed in the least bit to say it.

This ain't your grandma's planet anymore. It's very very tiny and we're all on top of each other now. I already think our Government spends WAY too much time involved in foreign affairs, and I don't want a president who may have loyalties to Middle Eastern countries that will direct his judgement while in office.

OK, so I didn't misinterpret you. You are a religious bigot, and not ashamed to say it. Well, at least you're honest.

I agree that we spend way too much time involved in foreign affairs. Does that mean you don't want a Jewish president who may have loyalties to Israel that will direct his judgment while in office? How about banning a Catholic president who may have loyalties to the Vatican, Ireland, and Latin America? What about banning a Buddhist president who might just have an itch to send troops to Tibet and start a war with China? While we're at it, let's ban Protestant presidents too, because they might be influenced by sympathies to evangelical Christian missionaries who are proselytizing *everywhere*.

Let's just have true separation of church and state and elect only atheist presidents. Wouldn't that be more fair than singling out Muslims?

And since it is not only Islam you are concerned about, but loyalty/sympathy to Middle Eastern countries, there a hint of nationalist bigotry too (prejudice against all those countries as a group).

So you really think the Middle Eastern countries were responsible for 9/11 huh? I thought you were more paranoid than that.

--------------------------
Of those around at the moment, Islam is the only one that has any appeal to me. But, of course, Islam has been tainted by other influences. The Muslims are behaving like Christians, I'm afraid.
--Arthur C. Clarke

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:12 AM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
That's a good point Fletch.

You'd think that his campaign team would do a little research before writing that into his speech beforehand, ya know, with the Wikipedia just begging to prove everyone wrong. Or in your folks case, IMDB.

Except that Senator Obama wrote the speech in question himself, and reportedly didn't let anyone on his staff review it. Which lends credence to the "Family Legend" theory, I think.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:12 AM

CHAPTERANDVERSE

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
To bar a Muslim from the higest political office in this country, for the time being, is simply a matter of common sense and more importantly National Security. I certainly don't want a Muslim running our country now, and I'm not ashamed in the least bit to say it.

This ain't your grandma's planet anymore. It's very very tiny and we're all on top of each other now. I already think our Government spends WAY too much time involved in foreign affairs, and I don't want a president who may have loyalties to Middle Eastern countries that will direct his judgement while in office.
OK, so I didn't misinterpret you. You are a religious bigot, and not ashamed to say it. Well, at least you're honest.

I agree that we spend way too much time involved in foreign affairs. Does that mean you don't want a Jewish president who may have loyalties to Israel that will direct his judgment while in office? How about banning a Catholic president who may have loyalties to the Vatican, Ireland, and Latin America? What about banning a Buddhist president who might just have an itch to send troops to Tibet and start a war with China? While we're at it, let's ban Protestant presidents too, because they might be influenced by sympathies to evangelical Christian missionaries who are proselytizing *everywhere*.

Let's just have true separation of church and state and elect only atheist presidents. Wouldn't that be more fair than singling out Muslims?

And since it is not only Islam you are concerned about, but loyalty/sympathy to Middle Eastern countries, there a hint of nationalist bigotry too (prejudice against all those countries as a group).

So you really think the Middle Eastern countries were responsible for 9/11 huh? I thought you were more paranoid than that.

Sometimes, when I feel particularly strongly about an issue, i find that I am too emotional about it to give an articulate and measured response to arguments that I find offensively ill-informed. Thank you Canttakesky for saying what needed to be said in such a concise and straightforward manner. It is good to know that there are people like you out there too.

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:32 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Obama has played the race card since he started campaiging, and this speech, no matter what the words spoken, are the epitome of his using the color of his skin to try to get into office.

It would make absolutely no sense for Obama to 'play the race card".

Why?

Because there are way more bigoted whites that guilty whites and blacks combined. Up until Rev Wright became an issue, Obama was running as a dark-skinned white. He didn't refer to race, only to his goals. If you want to see WHY he didn't refer to race, you have only to look at his poll numbers afterwards.... the Wright issue brought out all the paranioa and bigotry that up until then had been hiding in the closet. In other words, he was trying to avoid exactly your kind of response.

with you 6ix.

CTS- great answer.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:16 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Man's got a right to his opinions though.

Cause something you said about a jewish candidate kinda hit home on me, sad that it is to say, given their historical behavior going all the way back a thousand years and so... no, I could not bring myself to vote for one, and do I feel maybe some guilt for that, sure - but peoples attitudes are influenced by their concept as a whole of a belief or people by those they have met and interacted with.

I live right near a very large community of arabic and muslim folk who hate those fanatic dickheads, since a lot of em moved HERE to get away from em, and I don't have issues with those folk so much cause I know em, can relate, have learned to understand them as people, see ?

They've been pretty open (although less so recently, in our vilifying of their belief and race as of late, society-wide) and engaging with those willing to hold an open mind and learn about them... not so sure about a president, but you know, I sure wouldn't mind a muslim economic adviser, they take as dim a view of usury and general chicanery than I do.

But every time I have tried to relate to jewish folk, it's like meeting a stone wall, they're a very insular people sometimes, sure, it seems to be part of their culture, but thing is folks...

If you don't understand someone, don't really comprehend their motivations, their beliefs and what drives them, that lack of knowledge leads to fear and distrust, especially in light of behavior patterns that, without that knowledge, are only interpretable by speculation.

I'm not entirely sure I would call that outright bigotry, but more of a human guardedness about folks who's motivations, goals and ambitions are unknown to you - we fear the unknown, and what we fear, we certainly don't trust.

My differences with catholics/protestants are different matter entire - the more I know about em, the more that I DIS-like them, to be honest about it, and I have my reasons.

Anyhows, I doubt so much that Jack is buying the vilification, as much as he does not know or understand those folk enough to place any trust in them, which might look like bigotry on the face of it, but bigotry is rooted in hate, and it just didn't seem like it to me, any more than I would consider myself anti-semetic for not trusting folks who's drives, motivations and culture *I* do not know or understand because I've been unable to connect with them enough to do so.

That bein said, if yer ever in this neck of the woods, I got some folks you might wanna meet Jack, remember, they're forbidden to partake of the fermentation of the grape (wine) or of wheat (whiskey), but in thier book milk (kefir) and honey (mead) are A-Ok, you see...

Believe me, a couple rounds of raised glasses with some doner kebab around the table, and you'd soon realize a lot of em are the same kind of assholes we are!

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:39 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

My biggest experience with 'Jewish folk' was as a university student with other students. I had the impression 'mom and dad' sent them as far away as possible from NYC to a place where they could still be in the state. And then my biggest gripe was that they were too loud and too stuck on themselves - which had to do with coming from the NYC area more than anything. I was asked once by a well-meaning but completely ignorant NYC mother if western NY had its own water supply or did it come from 'the city'. (Apparently she did not know there actually were other cities on the planet or that that water in NYC didn't come from NYC it came from elsewhere.) As someone once said 'there is no one quite so provincial as a person from New York City'.

The experience didn't give me any impression of Jews, but I never again had an interest in visiting the nest where all the NYC folk came from.

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 7:07 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Yanno Frem, I can''t imagine two politicians LESS like each other than Russ Feingold and Diane Feinstein. One is a staunch supporter of what I call 'true Ameican values' and the other is just a neocon in drag.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:43 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Exactly, Sig.. they're people like anyone else, and folk I wouldn't mind understanding a little better, but they don't make it so easy.

The only contact I have that's any kind of open with me is a young guy, almost a kid, really - but for whatever reason, his grandfather, who almost never says nothing at all, saw fit to give me a WWII Polish Radom Auto for Xmas, with a handwritten note saying it had a very dark history and he could think of no more redeeming hand in which to put it.

I was kind of awed by that, for a lot of reasons, but I still don't *know* the guy, he says very little to me, although he did mention a certain level of cultural paranioa, which did put a new light on some things, and yet still I know almost nothing - and it's not my way to pry, you have to invite me into your mentality, offer me a door or a window to look into.
(His mother made a vampire crack when I said that...)

I get the feeling they don't much care for me, but I am not so very sure that is accurate, since they obviously support what I do a great deal, it just bothers me that I have little comprehension of what drives their actions, and as you can imagine, that drives me a bit bonkers, you know.

It's not just important to know people do things, it's important to know WHY, especially when dealing with other cultures cause it's oh so easy to be mortally offensive when you do not mean to be, or get blindsided that way, see ?

As for Obamalamadingdong...
(found out yesterday to my tremendous amusement that I ain't the only one who calls him that!)

We are, nationally, in a pretty bad spot, and to pull us out of this nose dive, sure, hope is important, but also some harsh measures, like cutting foreign aid as an example, that really NEED to be done are political suicide to do.

And we need someone hardheaded enough, just plain jackass stubborn enough, to commit political suicide in the doing of their job, and I don't think the man has it in him cause he ain't arrogant enough, stubborn enough, or flat out mean enough to do the ugly, nasty job were about to set in front of him.

But I don't think Billary or McCain got what it takes neither..

McCain might try to put the brakes on, though I doubt it, his party is so invested in the direction we have taken, and so horribly afraid of being able to admit they were wrong, especially when it might lead to some of them doing time, that they'll go full steam ahead right off the cliff and carry us with em.

I like Obama, I just think that the shitstorm of a job we're about to hand him will crush and bury him cause he ain't got the nasty it'd take to stand and deliver in a place that ugly.

I'd love to be wrong about that, but I don't think so.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:47 AM

FLETCH2

People are people, you judge them by what they do not by the labels they have. Jewish president? Jon Stewart gets my vote (if i had a vote...)

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 12:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
That's a good point Fletch.

You'd think that his campaign team would do a little research before writing that into his speech beforehand, ya know, with the Wikipedia just begging to prove everyone wrong. Or in your folks case, IMDB.

Except that Senator Obama wrote the speech in question himself, and reportedly didn't let anyone on his staff review it. Which lends credence to the "Family Legend" theory, I think.

Well.... can't argue that my man. If you believe what a sneaky lying politician and what his campaign team want you to. Call me cynical, but the man is just as full of shit as any other politician who has ever run for office.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 1:09 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

So, uhm, if he lies like everyone else, and is a politician like everyone else, and has plans you don't like everyone else - what's your sepcific beef against him then ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:23 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Because he's black (well, part black) and a Muslim (well, he's not that either) and he's running on race (not really).

I guess I don't know!

Maybe 6ix can 'slpain.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 7:13 PM