Waterboarding- the real deal by SignyM

America loves a winner!

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Regardless, this is all a smokescreen. The real issue isn't whether serious action should be taken to counter the terrorist's efforts. Despite your claims, we all agree on that. The issue is that you and others are eager to toss aside fundamental freedoms and protection in favor of fascist, police-state tactics. What you can't seem to understand is that doing that actually caters to the terrorists' goals, and maximizes the effect of their fleeting attacks.

You have it exactly backwards and upside down wrong.

You're ignoring the threat, not I.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, May 3, 2008 11:50 PM

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
That wasn't " Americans" as a whole, Citizen, but Irish - Americans who came here, made $$ and sent some of it back. You make is sound as if there was wide spread, whole sale support for the Irish. I'd say 97% of Americans had no clue what was going on w/ respect to the funding of the IRA or why Catholics and Protestants couldn't get along over there.

And your government sure did a lot to stop it...

And it was widespread enough for nearly all the IRA's funding to be in US $, though the fact that 97% of Americans didn't have a clue about something happening outside of their own doorstep is hardly one that surprises.

You go on about being the only one who understands the threat, but you're not. I've lived with terrorism ALL of my life. You've had it for a couple of years. It's new and scary to you, I get it (it's just a shame you don't), its old hat to me and I know what the threat really amounts to. I know how to live my life as I wish even though people want to kill me, you wish to shit your pants and abandon your life in order to get THEM.

You're the one blowing the threat out of all proportion, not me. I've lived with terrorism all my life, you've lived with it for five minutes, now this is when you arrogantly tell me you know everything about terrorism and the current threat, and I know nothing. Have at it.

"i guess that makes me a troll.." AntiMason

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 1:50 AM

America loves a winner!

Never claimed to be " the only one" , kiddo. Not by a longshot. And what's different about this threat and what the IRA did is that these clowns want us all equally dead, or to submit. They're not screaming about getting off their little patch of land on an island, and then they'll play nice. No, these SOBs want everyone to bow to their god, live by their rules, or else.

By your silly attempt to compare this to the domestic issues you've had only shows how little you get the threat.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 2:31 AM

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Never claimed to be " the only one" , kiddo. Not by a longshot.

No, son, you just think the only people who get it are the ones that think just like you. Which, for those that need it spelled out to them, is basically the same thing as thinking "the only one".

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No, these SOBs want everyone to bow to their god, live by their rules, or else.

So do you.

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They're not screaming about getting off their little patch of land on an island

Actually, that's exactly what most of them want. Your inability to grasp that proves you don't understand the threat.

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By your silly attempt to compare this to the domestic issues you've had only shows how little you get the threat.

You're insulting ignorance of anything outside of your own front yard only proves you don't have a clue.

Domestic issues? That just goes to prove how little perspective you have, and how afraid you are. Don't tell other people they don't get the threat, because they live their lives rather than huddling in a corner crying in a puddle of their own piss. Just because I'm not a coward, doesn't mean I don't get the threat. I can live my life even under the threat of terrorism, because you haven't the bravery to do the same doesn't mean you get the threat more than I do.

Don't compare your irrational fear of Muslims under your bed to reality, doing so shows how little you understand the real threat.

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 2:56 AM

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

EDIT: but please remember that the above example Kirkules posed is a TV-like one, and in all probability would NEVER HAPPEN.
OK? Are we real here?

I conceded earlier that the likelihood of this scenario happening to any individual is near zero. Apparently our government believes that they have had three of these potential scenarios since 911 judging by the three water-boarding incidents, and this seems reasonable to me. The problem with outright outlawing water-boarding and other coercive techniques is that there are instances in real life where they might prove useful. If the CIA gets intelligence that terrorists are coming into the US to bomb a shopping center, and then capture a known terrorist at the border, they know that an event might be imminent. I don't want to have to rely on a Federal Agent that is 6 months from retirement to decide whether they should risk losing their pension because their not sure what interrogation techniques are legal. If the Federal agent thought his family might get bombed, I have no doubt that they would do what is required, but would they react so quickly if your family was the target given how much they have to lose. I just want them to be able to get approval quickly at a high level to use those methods that they determine necessary, without having to worry about their pensions.

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 3:12 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

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I just want them to be able to get approval quickly at a high level to use those methods that they determine necessary, without having to worry about their pensions.

Isn't that what the FISA courts are there for? To get things approved quickly and cover the agents' arses? I still don't "get" why adding torture to their repertoire gets things done more quickly.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 3:21 AM

KWICKO

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Never claimed to be " the only one" , kiddo. Not by a longshot. And what's different about this threat and what the IRA did is that these clowns want us all equally dead, or to submit. They're not screaming about getting off their little patch of land on an island, and then they'll play nice. No, these SOBs want everyone to bow to their god, live by their rules, or else.

By your silly attempt to compare this to the domestic issues you've had only shows how little you get the threat.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

Bow to their god, live by their rules, or else. Sounds an awful lot like what BushCo is offering the Middle East.

By your silly attempts to blow this out of all proportion, you've only shown how much you've over-hyped the threat. I simply refuse to live my life worrying about things that are less likely to happen than (a) a tornado striking my home, (b) a hurricane wiping out my city, (c) lightning striking me, or (d) being killed in a car wreck. All of these scenarios are FAR, FAR more likely to occur to me on a daily basis than my being killed or targeted by terrorists.

By your kind of reasoning, ANY AND ALL measures that would cut down traffic deaths are not only "okay", but necessary and mandatory. I guess you're a big proponent of traffic cameras, photo radar, et al. After all, it's not Big-Brother-ism, it's just "security", and what could ever possibly be wrong with that? No one in this country has EVER gotten carried away or misused such power, right?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 5:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

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The problem with outright outlawing water-boarding and other coercive techniques is that there are instances in real life where they might prove useful.

This goes back to... if a cop shooting an unarmed civilian is useful in one case, should we make it LEGAL? In other words, if this action is useful for 1 in a million encounters between civvies and police should cops get an automatic "pass" on the other 999,999? How much harm would flow from legalizing free-fire on civvies versus how much good?

You haven't made your case that we should make torture legal in all cases because it MIGHT be useful in very rare instances. Have you considered that if you make torture legal then it could be applied indiscriminately in ALL cases? So what would prevent your local PD from ripping off a couple of testicles? It's legal after all, right? So how would you prevent indiscriminate torture if its legal?

All you've done is demonstrate that you're so terrified of what MIGHT happen that you're willing to take a dump on the Constitution and the Geneva Convention. You haven't looked for alternatives to torture, and you haven't even considered a judicial review process that might exonerate its use under extenuating circumstances. You've managed to skip all kinds of steps in-between because your fear has overridden your intellect.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 5:17 AM

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Originally posted by citizen:
Don't tell other people they don't get the threat, because they live their lives rather than huddling in a corner crying in a puddle of their own piss. Just because I'm not a coward, doesn't mean I don't get the threat. I can live my life even under the threat of terrorism, because you haven't the bravery to do the same doesn't mean you get the threat more than I do.

OUCH!!!
Score one knock-out by Citizen!!!!
This is the whole thing of it right here- the thing Georgie boy and his pals are playing and depending on- the general cowardice they can whip up, and AU's been whipped up right nice.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 5:33 AM

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Originally posted by Reaverman:

If you were being tried for that, you would regret ... That you were getting in deep shit for defending your family.

No, I'd expect that a jury of my piers would 'get' what I did, or that it might not even get to trial...I think most would understand the Bauer thing...

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When the gloves come off, and you are teetering on the edge of potentially spending decades locked away as someone's bitch for doing what you saw as the right thing for the situation, you'd be surprised how quickly your holier-than-thou principles of the justness of law, and accepting your fate go right out the window.

Please sir, do not attempt to project the fragility of your own beliefs & convictions upon me.
If I DID get in deep doo for what I did, I certainly wouldn't like it, but for Kirkules and my family to live, it would be a price I could survive with. Or maybe in beating that guy to a pulp I went too far? What? I didn't get any useful info from him? The Feds rescued our families at the last minute without Chrisisall's help? Well, then I broke that guy's knees and fingers for nothing then...maybe I NEED to be locked up for a spell....

In reality though, since our fictional dude is a "THEM", I doubt it would come to very much in the way of jail time.

See, it's a personal responsibility and correct perception thing.

Same Tuneisall

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 5:45 AM

America loves a winner!

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Originally posted by citizen:
No, son, you just think the only people who get it are the ones that think just like you. Which, for those that need it spelled out to them, is basically the same thing as thinking "the only one".

Wow. Diagram that up on the chalk board for everyone and label it " Circular Reasoning ". More like Flawed Logic.

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So do you.

Having no God in the first place, it's rather absurd for you to claim that I want everyone bowing to mine. Point is, I don't care which god/gods you pray to, just keep your bomb vest and exploding cars out of your weekly sermons as some sort of testaments of 'faith', and we'll be peachy.

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Actually, that's exactly what most of them want. Your inability to grasp that proves you don't understand the threat.

So, Irish Catholics want to take over the world, right ? I missed the decree by his Holiness from Rome declaring a Crusade on all non believers. Was that JP2 or Benedict XVI ?

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]You're insulting ignorance of anything outside of your own front yard only proves you don't have a clue.

So, I'm smart enough to know that we're all knowingly supporting the Irish terrorist, but still not smart enough to know what they want, or know anything beyond my front yard, right ? Sorry Skippy, can't have it both ways. Pick one.

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Domestic issues? That just goes to prove how little perspective you have, and how afraid you are. Don't tell other people they don't get the threat, because they live their lives rather than huddling in a corner crying in a puddle of their own piss. Just because I'm not a coward, doesn't mean I don't get the threat. I can live my life even under the threat of terrorism, because you haven't the bravery to do the same doesn't mean you get the threat more than I do.

Don't compare your irrational fear of Muslims under your bed to reality, doing so shows how little you understand the real threat.

Oh yes, you're quite brave. Calling the threat from Muslims " irrational " , are ya ? Man, stick that head any further up your own ass, it'll make ya gag. No amount of facts or evidence can sway you so I'm not going to bother any more. Your willful ignorance is beyond any point of reason or sense. I only hope you're not confused by some Jihadist for another free thinking Dutch film director, or .... oh screw it. Talking to you is a complete waste of time anyways.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 5:54 AM

FLETCH2

Any argument based on the concept that you have to do whatever it takes to protect civilian lives falls completely flat on it's face in a country without universal healthcare. Healthcare is a civil defense function even without a pandemic or bioattack. If Joe citizen is worth the time, money and moral "lapses" to defend at any cost, why don't you protect him against catastrophic illness.

Talking about the IRA the boyo's recognized something years ago that Al Queda and co should realize.

Kill people and it just makes people REALLY pissed with you, it makes them far far more likely to come after you and far less likely to do what you want. Destroy property, especially stuff that is really expensive and government pays far more attention.

To you and me 9/11 is about 3000 folks that started into an average day and then had something horrific happen to them. It's about families left without loved ones. That's the horror they sell on the TV news to get us to tow the line.

In truth though it cost what? I have seen an estimate that by the time you take rebuilding, insurance bailouts to airlines etc into account it's around $360B. I suspect the drastic measures are there to prevent THAT from happening again.

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 5:55 AM

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Calling the threat from Muslims " irrational " , are ya ?

Reading requires that you pay attention- I believe he said the FEAR of the threat is irrational.
I'm curious AU, do you walk the streets lookin' over your shoulder for the random terrorist that might git ya? 'Cause Citizen lives in a country that had quite a few BOMBS go off in it- just wonderin' how it is you can be all superior to him regarding this....

EDIT: My brother-in-law was working in Manhattan that day- saw the planes hit, the bodies fall, and he NEVER sounds like you do, AU...how'd YOU get so frightened?

Living in terror Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 5:57 AM

America loves a winner!

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

Bow to their god, live by their rules, or else. Sounds an awful lot like what BushCo is offering the Middle East.

- Wow. That makes the list of most idiotic comments EVER posted on RWED. Congrats. Too bad you've got absolutely nothing to back it up, but then if you had, there'd be no nomination in the 1st place!

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By your silly attempts to blow this out of all proportion, you've only shown how much you've over-hyped the threat. I simply refuse to live my life worrying about things that are less likely to happen than (a) a tornado striking my home, (b) a hurricane wiping out my city, (c) lightning striking me, or (d) being killed in a car wreck. All of these scenarios are FAR, FAR more likely to occur to me on a daily basis than my being killed or targeted by terrorists.

By your kind of reasoning, ANY AND ALL measures that would cut down traffic deaths are not only "okay", but necessary and mandatory. I guess you're a big proponent of traffic cameras, photo radar, et al. After all, it's not Big-Brother-ism, it's just "security", and what could ever possibly be wrong with that? No one in this country has EVER gotten carried away or misused such power, right?

Mike

Only a moron, a complete imbecile will compare accidents in nature to premeditated acts of heartless, intentional violence against their fellow man. I'll give you every chance to reconsider your hapless words and hope that you misspoke out of frustration and ignorance, and that you really don't mean what you post. For the sake of your image , I hope you retract those silly remarks.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 6:00 AM

America loves a winner!

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Calling the threat from Muslims " irrational " , are ya ?
Reading requires that you pay attention- I believe he said the FEAR of the threat is irrational.
I'm curious AU, do you walk the streets lookin' over your shoulder for the random terrorist that might git ya? 'Cause Citizen lives in a country that had quite a few BOMBS go off in it- just wonderin' how it is you can be all superior to him regarding this....

EDIT: My brother-in-law was working in Manhattan that day- saw the planes hit, the bodies fall, and he NEVER sounds like you do, AU...how'd YOU get so frightened?

Living in terror Chrisisall

No fear here, which is why I posted my remarks as I did. I won't succumb to the false presumptions that others want to lay at my feet and try to paint me as something I'm not. Homie don't play dat game!

I can't speak for your bother in law. He works there, likely he's a liberal ? I don't know, but it could be he's ignorant of world affairs, and thinks everyone should just " get along " , and is not recognizing the ones who did this or why.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 6:12 AM

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Wow. Diagram that up on the chalk board for everyone and label it " Circular Reasoning ". More like Flawed Logic.

Not really, please don't use terms you don't understand. For you that generally translates to "remain silent and listen" at all times.

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Having no God in the first place, it's rather absurd for you to claim that I want everyone bowing to mine. Point is, I don't care which god/gods you pray to, just keep your bomb vest and exploding cars out of your weekly sermons as some sort of testaments of 'faith', and we'll be peachy.

George Bush and Rush Limbaugh are your Gods, and you wish to force American culture and values on everyone, so what I said still stands.

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So, Irish Catholics want to take over the world, right ? I missed the decree by his Holiness from Rome declaring a Crusade on all non believers. Was that JP2 or Benedict XVI ?

Yes, I get you're dumb, no need to keep proving it

.

I was talking about the fact that most of Muslims terrorism is about getting 'us' out of 'their' lands, such as Saudi Arabia and Chechnya in the case of Russia.

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So, I'm smart enough to know that we're all knowingly supporting the Irish terrorist, but still not smart enough to know what they want, or know anything beyond my front yard, right ? Sorry Skippy, can't have it both ways. Pick one.

I'm not trying to have it both ways Mary, you're making things up, and contradicting yourself. At first you said that 97% of Americans didn't know, and then you say you all do, are you just being a colossally thick tool, or are you trolling because that's all your meagre intelligence is capable of? It's both isn't it. The rest of that, apart from barely making sense in your child-like moron script, is about stuff I never said.

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Oh yes, you're quite brave. Calling the threat from Muslims " irrational " , are ya ?

Not really, but I don't count carrying on my life as normal with the minuscule possibility of a terrorist attack brave. But it's braver than wetting yourself and crying for the government to make you safe because of it. I'm highlighting that your acting like a colossal coward, not saying that I'm acting particularly brave.

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Man, stick that head any further up your own ass, it'll make ya gag.

If my head was anywhere near my 'ass' I'd certainly take your advice. I know for a fact you're about the most experienced here in the regard of head-in-anus syndrome.

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No amount of facts or evidence can sway you so I'm not going to bother any more.

No, I just don't assume Rush Limbaugh's latest Racist rant is 'evidence', unlike his intellectually challenged followers.

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Your willful ignorance is beyond any point of reason or sense.

Err, no, but thanks for copy pasting my last post and sending it back at me, it's always fun to see you respond to me with what I just said like some mental retard. Hold, what do I mean 'like'?

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I only hope you're not confused by some Jihadist for another free thinking Dutch film director, or .... oh screw it. Talking to you is a complete waste of time anyways.

On the contrary, I hope a Jihadist DOES confuse you for a 'free thinking Dutch film director', rather than the small minded angry cowardly tool you are, because your continued existence is a complete waste of time, bubbye

It's not those that use the term, "American-Fascists" who are sullying the name of America, it's AURaptor...

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 6:16 AM

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

No fear here

Your words betray you. Your fear is apparent.

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He works there, likely he's a liberal ? I don't know, but it could be he's ignorant of world affairs, and thinks everyone should just " get along " , and is not recognizing the ones who did this or why.

He was one of the first to say we needed to stand behind Bush's plan to zap...well...SOMEONE...and when he saw up drop Afghanistan to back burner status in favour of Iraq, he called BS. See, he knows the score, as I 'spect most who actually LIVED through a bombing in any country do- they tend to make it a priority. You just cherry pick your facts to sublimate your fear IMO.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 6:29 AM

America loves a winner!

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
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Originally posted by AURaptor:

No fear here
Your words betray you. Your fear is apparent.

Ok, Darth Vadar

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He works there, likely he's a liberal ? I don't know, but it could be he's ignorant of world affairs, and thinks everyone should just " get along " , and is not recognizing the ones who did this or why.

He was one of the first to say we needed to stand behind Bush's plan to zap...well...SOMEONE...and when he saw up drop Afghanistan to back burner status in favour of Iraq, he called BS. See, he knows the score, as I 'spect most who actually LIVED through a bombing in any country do- they tend to make it a priority. You just cherry pick you facts to sublimate your fear IMO.

Ah ha! See, there's the rub. Going into Afghanistan was a good thing. Saying we didn't need to go into Iraq, that's a winnable argument, in my book. At least, at the time it was. Even though most Senators voted for it, I can EASILY see the rationale for not invading Iraq. ( Hope you were sitting down for that one

) Or, there could be just as solid a discussion on changing strategy ( booting Rummy earlier than Bush did ), and still " GET " the importance on the war on Islamo fascism. But the fact is, we're there NOW, and it's become a 2nd front in the war on Islamo-fascism. Blame who ever you want, but make no mistake, it's there now. And if we could take on Nazi GERMANY and Imperial Japan at the same time, we can take on the 2 minor fronts of this " war " .

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 6:34 AM

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Saying we didn't need to go into Iraq, that's a winnable argument, in my book.

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 6:35 AM

Sorry- fell a little...
still regaining senses....

**Chrisisall* *

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 6:47 AM

America loves a winner!

comrade citizen -

Sorry, but Rush and W aren't my " gods " . Minus bonus points for your, and no, what you said doesn't still stand.

replying with " you're dumb " dismisses all doubt that you're intellectually challenged by all this. Perhaps if you took a nice nap?

I never said all Americans knew what the hell was going on w/ N. Ireland and England, other than it was stupid and bloody and senseless. YOUR position was that since all this $$ kept rolling in, we clearly had our collective noses in all that business, when in fact, we didn't. Outside of NY and Boston, most of America hadn't much of a clue or cared to. Sorry if that hurts your feelings, it's not meant to, thems just the facts.

Blah blah blah.. " I know you are, but what am I ? " ....

Rush would have to have 1 "racist rant" before he had a 2nd one, so there's no chance of him having his " latest " one any time soon. That would be his first.

Trust me, any diaper headed dress wearing maggot infested bearded whacko Islamist tries to do me in, I'll go Crusader on his ass before he knows what hit him.

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On the contrary, I hope a Jihadist DOES confuse you for a 'free thinking Dutch film director', rather than the small minded angry cowardly tool you are, because your continued existence is a complete waste of time, bubbye

But it's nice to know that you're issuing death wishes to fellow Browncoats. I'm sure all the regs are just all shiny all over about that. And that only goes to show I'm the better man than you. I don't wish your demise by some religious zealot, despite your brain dead, witless ignorance. Not even for you to lose a limb. Just goes to show that I'm better than, above you.

But you can still

off. Make no mistake about that.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 6:55 AM

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Trust me, any diaper headed dress wearing maggot infested bearded whacko Islamist tries to do me in, I'll go Crusader on his ass before he knows what hit him.

AU- I didn't know you could fight...are you good with a sword? What martial art(s) do you study?

Surprised Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 7:00 AM

Sieg hail-Raptor

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Sorry, but Rush and W aren't my " gods " . Minus bonus points for your, and no, what you said doesn't still stand.

Yes it does. You say "they're not my gods" then act like they are, so it really does.

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replying with " you're dumb " dismisses all doubt that you're intellectually challenged by all this. Perhaps if you took a nice nap?

Oh the irony.

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I never said all Americans knew what the hell was going on w/ N. Ireland and England, other than it was stupid and bloody and senseless.

Liar:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
we're all knowingly supporting the Irish terrorist

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YOUR position was that since all this $$ kept rolling in, we clearly had our collective noses in all that business, when in fact, we didn't. Outside of NY and Boston, most of America hadn't much of a clue or cared to. Sorry if that hurts your feelings, it's not meant to, thems just the facts.

No it wasn't liar. I said the Government didn't care to do anything, and that not knowing what's going on outside your own front door is what you and many others in America excel at.

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Blah blah blah.. " I know you are, but what am I ? " ....

That pretty much amounts to the most you can manage in any of your posts yes.

Quote:
Rush would have to have 1 "racist rant" before he had a 2nd one, so there's no chance of him having his " latest " one any time soon. That would be his first.

You don't notice them, because you're also a racist.

Quote:
Trust me, any diaper headed dress wearing maggot infested bearded whacko Islamist tries to do me in, I'll go Crusader on his ass before he knows what hit him.

Yeah, but I doubt typing an angry racist message board post is going to do much...

Quote:
But it's nice to know that you're issuing death wishes to fellow Browncoats. I'm sure all the regs are just all shiny about that for ya.

You're not a fellow browncoat. You saw Browncoat and thought it said "brown shirt" and signed up. But to be frank, I'd not care one iota if you were to be killed by a terrorist. The world would be better off if people like you went off and killed them, and they just went and killed you, letting normal decent people to live their lives away from you crazy nasty bastards. Instead of getting us all caught between you two opposed groups of tossers.

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 7:13 AM

America loves a winner!

citizen- You just showed yourself to be a gutless coward and a liar. You intentionally took my words out of context to make your lame ass false point.

Here's what I said -

Quote:
So, I'm smart enough to know that we're all knowingly supporting the Irish terrorist, but still not smart enough to know what they want, or know anything beyond my front yard, right ? Sorry Skippy, can't have it both ways. Pick one.

Anyone w/ 1/4 a brain can tell that I was referring to YOUR insistence that Americans knew , but then didn't know about what was going on beyond our front yard. You can't have it both ways, and my comment directly showed that.

You then , like the pussy coward you are, took my quote out of context and lied.

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
we're all knowingly supporting the Irish terrorist

There's no way you could have come up w/ that quote w/ out cherry picking it, which is exactly what you did.

You're a loser. A punk and a coward.

And you just showed everyone exactly what you are.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 8:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Anyone w/ 1/4 a brain can tell that I was referring to YOUR insistence that Americans knew , but then didn't know about what was going on beyond our front yard. You can't have it both ways, and my comment directly showed that.

You then , like the pussy coward you are, took my quote out of context and lied.

You're the liar, they're your words, and not mine, but spin it as you wish. You lied about what I said, I quoted your words, no matter what way you cast it, they were typed by you. You can't quote me, because the words you prescribe to me, I never wrote. You're nothing but a coward and a liar, just like your rapist father.

Quote:
There's no way you could have come up w/ that quote w/ out cherry picking it, which is exactly what you did.

You're a loser. A punk and a coward.

And you just showed everyone exactly what you are.

I like that the more desperate you are to try to prove me wrong, the more you prove me right.

You're a coward, a liar, a supporter of murder and terrorism, a fascist and sub-human scum. Death is too good for you.

You're as bad as the terrorists, and the world would be a better place if we exported you, and them to some island somewhere and let you fight each other to the death.

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 8:32 AM

*I'm sensing some hostility here...

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 8:49 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
You never asked what I, or SignyM, would do rather than torture.

So Rue, what would you or SignyM do (to a suspected or confirmed terrorist who might have information you needed to save lives, for example) rather than torture?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 8:58 AM

Quote:
please be civil when responding to others.

Sorry Skippy
stick that head any further up your own ass
Your willful ignorance is beyond any point of reason or sense
most idiotic comments EVER posted
a moron, a complete imbecile
Yes, I get you're dumb
are you just being a colossally thick tool, or are you trolling
your child-like moron script
your acting like a colossal coward
you're about the most experienced here in the regard of head-in-anus syndrome.
like some mental retard
your continued existence is a complete waste of time
you're issuing death wishes to fellow Browncoats
your brain dead, witless ignorance
you can still off
Sieg hail-Raptor
Liar:
you're also a racist
you crazy nasty bastards
tossers
gutless coward and a liar
lame ass
pussy coward
You're a loser. A punk and a coward.
You're nothing but a coward and a liar, just like your rapist father.
You're a coward, a liar, a supporter of murder and terrorism, a fascist and sub-human scum. Death is too good for you.
You're as bad as the terrorists, and the world would be a better place if we exported you, and them to some island somewhere and let you fight each other to the death.

This must be some kind of RWED record...

Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 9:45 AM

America loves a winner!

He started it.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 9:49 AM

America loves a winner!

Hey citizen. When you grow the hell up, maybe someday I'll grant you the honor of conversing w/ me. Until then, piss off.

You're a liar, a coward , a idiot and a punk.

I win, you lose.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 10:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
He started it.

I blame Bush.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 10:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

So Rue, what would you or SignyM do (to a suspected or confirmed terrorist who might have information you needed to save lives, for example) rather than torture?

You ever see Back To The Future?

Van Halenisall

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 10:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
He started it.
...
When you grow the hell up

Hahaha! He started it whaaa! whaaa!

It's just too easy to make you look like a brainless little fascist child, you do most of the work yourself

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Hey citizen. When you grow the hell up, maybe someday I'll grant you the honor of conversing w/ me. Until then, piss off.

Saying talking to you is an honour, is like saying talking to a piece of shit is an honour. Make me piss off you cowardly waste of human skin

That's right, you can't, because you're nothing but a mouthy keyboard wielding coward

Quote:
You're a liar, a coward , a idiot and a punk.

I win, you lose.

You're a liar, a supporter of murder and terrorism, a coward, a moron and the child of a rapist. Until you become a human being you don't deserve the right of talking to anyone, and it's not a pleasure to speak to a worthless piece of shit like you.

You always lose

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 10:26 AM

America loves a winner!

citizen - The more you lie, the bigger my win.

And every time you post, you lie.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 10:29 AM

AURaptor: The more you post, the more you sound like a brainless wannabe prick. You lose every time, that's why you have to declare yourself the winner, because no one else will.

You've never won anything in your life, what a pathetic loser you are

Quote:
citizen - The more you lie, the bigger my win.

And every time you post, you lie.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 10:42 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You however, have no interest in what I consider or what I think.
To be fair Finn, you are sometimes almost cryptically vague in your responses...I know that I personally have to read past the actual words you sometimes type here to recognize that not only are you not "evil", your beliefs are actually more in line with those of James Kirk than Khan Noonian Singh...

I apologize for the cryptology. In truth, I’m not trying to be cryptic, but some people often have a hard time understanding me. I‘ll take some of the blame for that - maybe I could state things more clearly. But neither rue nor sigynm actually care what I think. Rue is trying to accuse me of wanting to use torture under every circumstance, which even if you disagreed with me, you’d have to admit is a degree of distortion that only comes from either hatred or willful ignorance.

In reality, I actually agree with Signym or perhaps Signym agrees with me, that the use of torture should only be allowed under presidential order. But I’m not so cowardly as to state something and not stand by it. I’ll take responsibility for that opinion. I think that also distinquishes the Kirk's from the Khan's.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 11:53 AM

Remember A Private Little War, Where Kirk was arming Tyree's peeps, and the Klingons were arming the other side? That was a show I didn't like so much as a kid, because it seemed murky- I didn't know if I liked Kirk's decisions (Nona notwithstanding), but as I got older, I realized that things aren't always so cut & dried, easy to figure out. My desire to see things as good vs. bad sometimes colour my understanding, and I try, not always successfully, to take that into account in these types of discussions. I still say that torture, be it tying someone prone over a bed frame, or electrocuting their genitals, is something that takes away the moral high ground of the country allowing it...except in rare, TV-like Jack Bauer cases, of course.

Uh-oh...better get out of here while I can, Cit & AU are whipping out the rubber cannons & the glue emitters...

I was gonna git me an ear Chrisisall

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 12:23 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

So Rue, what would you or SignyM do (to a suspected or confirmed terrorist who might have information you needed to save lives, for example) rather than torture?

You ever see Back To The Future?

And you call Finn cryptic?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 1:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

And you call Finn cryptic?

Van Halenisall

Less cryptic now?

Darth Vader from the planet Vulcanisall

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 2:01 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

I've noticed that people who support torture always talk about extreme cases "the terrorist has a nuclear bomb and its going to detonate in 24...but we don't know where". Basically people watch too much tv. People aren't tortured because of those sort of issues. People are tortured because governments who support torture are ignorant, ill informed and vengeful.

Torture (and I include waterboarding) is an ineffectual method of obtaining reliable information. That's been known for some time. You get poor information (because if the victim is weak they'll do anything to stop it...that would be me BTW) or if they are strong and a true believer, they'll resist until death.

Regardless of whether you consider waterboarding torture, the current US administration supports torture, only via rendition they let someone else do their dirty work.

The US administration also knows how ineffectual and unnecessary it is. They support it because they are vengeful, because they are looking to create fear in their enemy and they flexing their (in their case superpower) muscle.

Same as it is for any other government that supports it.

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 2:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
The problem with outright outlawing water-boarding and other coercive techniques is that there are instances in real life where they might prove useful.
This goes back to... if a cop shooting an unarmed civilian is useful in one case, should we make it LEGAL? In other words, if this action is useful for 1 in a million encounters between civvies and police should cops get an automatic "pass" on the other 999,999? How much harm would flow from legalizing free-fire on civvies versus how much good?

I don't know what you're talking about, Cops shoot unarmed civilians all the time in the US. It's not illegal for a cop to shoot an unarmed person if he believes there is an imminent threat. A cop might not shoot you if you attacked him unarmed, but I'll guarantee you that if a 6'5" 250lb Hell's Angel comes at him unarmed he would use deadly force without hesitation. Just like the Cops have legal guidelines for when deadly force is justified, and soldiers have rules of engagement, Federal Agents should have rules for when coercive tactics can be used. If the President of the US is available to make the call then that's great, but there needs to be a system set up where it can be done quickly. Kwicko mentioned the Fisa Court, but that wouldn't work if all coercive methods were illegal, a court can't order an action that is illegal.

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 3:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
You get poor information (because if the victim is weak they'll do anything to stop it...that would be me BTW) or if they are strong and a true believer, they'll resist until death.

MD, you am correct.

Or they could, y'know, REALLY NOT know anything key to a situation...

This thread is tortureisall

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 3:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:

I don't know what you're talking about, Cops shoot unarmed civilians all the time in the US.

Eh, Kirk, now I know why you aren't a representative for the U.S....

Bad PRisall

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 3:05 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
If the President of the US is available to make the call then that's great, but there needs to be a system set up where it can be done quickly.

The system can NEVER set it up so that torture is acceptable. Such systems lead to regimes like the Third Reich and Stalin's Russia, see?

Listen, I know the world is not perfect. Sometimes people need to make very difficult decisions between the lesser of two evils, between the suffering of one person vs. the suffering of many people. I get that.

But those decisions have to be made by the INDIVIDUALS who implement them. ALWAYS. Individuals who believe the cost to them is worth the benefit to society. Individuals who are willing to sacrifice their own moral wellbeing. Individuals who afterwards have to face the consequences of an immoral action.

If someone captured my children, I might choose to torture the perpetrator to save them. But it has to be MY decision, not anyone else's. And I must be willing to face the consequences of my decision. The decision has to be WORTH the consequences.

Let me spell it out.

1. Torture should never be free and must never be committed with impunity. The torturer must suffer consequences, and the torture must be worth suffering those consequences. Maybe a jury will be lenient if lots of lives are saved, but the torturer must never believe he won't be prosecuted.

2. Torture must never be decided or ordered by someone who is not doing the torture. "I was just following orders" is too easy an excuse to not take responsibility for immoral orders. Responsibility for torture has to be unequivocal: it is the choice of the torturer.

3. Torture must never be sanctioned by any society towards any target. Dehumanization of certain groups making torture acceptable is the first step towards genocide or mass homicide. The histories of Germany, Russia, Cambodia, China, and Rwanda support this assertion, just to name a few.

4. Torture is notoriously unreliable, as Masonsdaughter pointed out. The Jack Bauer scenario caters more towards our vengeful and hateful needs than to our need for intelligence. Torture normally is lazy and irrational man's excuse for doing the hard work of real intelligence.

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 3:35 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
AURaptor: You lose every time, that's why you have to declare yourself the winner, because no one else will.

Wow, you stumble across one snarky line which, for you, passes off as 'witty' and you keep using it, over and over, huh? I simply am pointing it out to YOU because you keep posting the same drivel over and over again, under the delusion that you're "winning" something, when in fact, you aren't.

I find it funny that it's important for you to imagine me as some figment of your imagination. Says a lot about you, now don't it ?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 3:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
You get poor information (because if the victim is weak they'll do anything to stop it...that would be me BTW) or if they are strong and a true believer, they'll resist until death.

MD, you am correct.

Or they could, y'know, REALLY NOT know anything key to a situation...

This thread is tortureisall

You would think that an upper level leader in Al Qaeda would be a "true believer" and "resist until death" if anyone would. But it turns out they actually started crying like little girls when coercive techniques were used on them, and the info they spilled saved lives.

Three Were Waterboarded, CIA Chief Confirms
By Greg Miller
The Los Angeles Times

Wednesday 06 February 2008

"He also testified that only three detainees were ever subjected to the method: Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks; Abu Zubaydah, an Al Qaeda operative tied to the Sept. 11 plot; and Abd al Rahim al Nashiri, a Saudi suspected of playing a key role in the bombing of the U.S. Navy destroyer Cole in Yemen in 2000.

Appearing before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, Hayden said the CIA had ceased using waterboarding nearly five years ago, but he made a vigorous case for preserving the agency's ability to use "enhanced" interrogation techniques.

Information provided by two of the waterboarded prisoners, Mohammed and Zubaydah, accounted for 25% of the human intelligence reports circulated by the CIA on Al Qaeda in the five years after the Sept. 11 attacks, Hayden said."

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Sunday, May 4, 2008 3:47 PM