Waterboarding- the real deal by SignyM

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Waterboarding- the real deal

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Thursday, May 8, 2008 15:12
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VIEWED: 6330
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Monday, May 5, 2008 12:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

As far as Iraqi civilians, the British medical journal "The Lancet" used their typical medical methodology, and figured the number of dead Iraqis at closer to 650,000 since the invasion.

I'm sure you realize that they were looking at all deaths and not just those that resulted from the war. The mortality rate from all causes did go up, but we can hardly be blamed for deaths due to old age and auto accidents. Many of the deaths were revenge, Iraqis killing Iraqis.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 12:15 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Fortunately, I took a big chunk of dollars and invested it in foreign currency and gold. Did you do that too? ---------------------------------

How's that gold thing working out for you lately. Remember, I'm the one that told you to short gold when it hit $1,000/oz. It's like I'm psychic or something. You still have time to dump your gold before it goes down another $200 dollars over the next year. http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=32331

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Monday, May 5, 2008 12:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm shifting into other commodities. Specifically, I'm looking at agricultural commodities. Even MORE specifically, I'm looking at the agricultural commodity index DBA (Deutsche Bank Agriculture. It's been a little on the high side, but the fundamentals look good so I'm buying on a cost-weighted average.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 12:28 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
I'm sure you saw 9/11 coming, SPECIFICALLY like that, and not just some car bomb, right ? I call B.S. on that, sorry. How's about you call on something BEFORE it happens?
No, not specifically as it happened. But I knew there was nothing preventing a big attack. I thought it might be radiological or biological, so I was somewhat relieved it wasn't worse. (Altho strangely, the pilot show of The Lone Gunmen got the whole 9-11 thing almost perfectly, including terrorists flying a plane into the WTC. Considering that it aired about six months before 9-11 I'd say the writers should get the Crystal Ball Award.)

AFA predicting stuff... I predicted SO MANY things that it got me followed by an alphabet agency. But that was all on another board. And that server crashed so those particular posts can't even be accessed. So I'll just have to point to my prediction of the current economic mess and the meltdown of the dollar. Fortunately, I took a big chunk of dollars and invested it in foreign currency and gold. Did you do that too? Or did yet another significant event take you by surprise... again?

.

Self congratulating prophets always pat themselves on the back- after the fact, never tell us what's going to happen. Look, you've got your fingers on the economic pulse of the world, darn skippy for ya . But the issue here that you're dodging is that Americans INTENTIONALLY killed 1000's of civilians and tortured " in the name of freedom " . Guess what ? Millions of civilians died in WW's 1 and 2 also, and the world actually thanked us for that too. As tragic as it was, it had to be done, while it also cost us in many 1000's of our own lives as well. And no country takes more time and effort to AVOID civilian causalities than the USA. Yes, full of faults, like any other nation, but the USA also goes to great lengths to do good for people, far more than ever gets reported by the M.S.M.

Again, the story has been told and retold a million times over , and yet we still get yahoos like you , pointing the finger of accusation on the USA, as if no other country isn't 1000 x's worse, all the while you ignore what GOOD the USA has done as well.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 5, 2008 12:34 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
The idea that we've killed "millions" is just stupid, no country in the world does more to avoid civilian casualties than we do.

That's not actually true. The US military's rules of engagement are a lot 'looser' with regards to civilian targets than most of its allies. A situation which has caused numerous problems co-ordinating forces.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 1:31 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
The idea that we've killed "millions" is just stupid, no country in the world does more to avoid civilian casualties than we do.

That's not actually true. The US military's rules of engagement are a lot 'looser' with regards to civilian targets than most of its allies. A situation which has caused numerous problems co-ordinating forces.

The US is the dominant force in the area, so generally speaking, more times than not, it's the one involved in 'engagement'. I stand by my statement, that we've called off multiple actions because of risk to civilians. More so than any other country , placed in a similar situation.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 5, 2008 3:49 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
The US military's rules of engagement are a lot 'looser' with regards to civilian targets than most of its allies.

Cites, please.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, May 5, 2008 4:25 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
...and yet we still get yahoos like you , pointing the finger of accusation on the USA, as if no other country isn't 1000 x's worse, all the while you ignore what GOOD the USA has done as well.

Which is a valid point. I'm not acting as if there aren't other countries that are worse - in so many aspects; I'm saying that WE can be BETTER. I think America is a pretty damned good place to live, but that doesn't mean that it's paradise on Earth. There's room to improve.

And speaking of the GOOD the USA has done, why isn't more made of that? Why do you have to search and search and search just to find out how much more money the Bush Administration has given to fight AIDS in Africa? With so much BAD news coming out, and so much of it reflecting negatively on the Administration, you'd think that someone would want to play up the contributions made by them.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, May 5, 2008 5:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
But the issue here that you're dodging is that Americans INTENTIONALLY killed 1000's of civilians and tortured " in the name of freedom " .

I'm not avoiding it, I was at the dentist. So in response: Iraq, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Honduras, Chile, Indonesia, Native Americans (a genocide of epic proportions), Hiroshima and Nagasaki, slavery... about 2.5 million civilians died in Vietnam alone. Our history is replete with targeting civilians.

Quote:
And no country takes more time and effort to AVOID civilian causalities than the USA. Yes, full of faults, like any other nation

blah blah blah... yadda yadda yadda...

Quote:
and yet we still get yahoos like you , pointing the finger of accusation on the USA, as if no other country isn't 1000 x's worse, all the while you ignore what GOOD the USA has done as well.

You said categorically that the United States does not torture and kill innocent civilians. Not that we're "better" than others, or that our causes are somehow more just, or that people thank us for killing them (That must be why the Iraqis are so grateful to us, neh?) but that we don't kill or torture innocent civilians. Are you not standing by that point?
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Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 6:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Yeah, I'm standing by that point. If you're gonna convict the US of today of deeds and events from hundreds of yrs ago, even events which predate the country, then you're talking to yourself. As for the nukes, more Japanese civilians died from conventional bombs than did in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Had the U.S. NOT dropped those 2 bombs, many, MANY more civilians would have died. Not to mention the cost of US soldiers lives, as the war would have been extended months and maybe even years.

We're talking about current times, and events under the control of folks TODAY, not about that which occurred beyond our ability to control. That's for a different thread.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 5, 2008 8:03 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
even events which predate the country

Oh, like slavery and the slaughter of Native Americans, most of which occurred AFTER the formation of the nation?

Quote:
We're talking about current times, and events under the control of folks TODAY, not about that which occurred beyond our ability to control. That's for a different thread.

Okay, so NOW we're supposed to limit ourselves to "today"? What about "yesterday"? What about under Clinton? Reagan? Nixon? Johnson? How much of our history do we have to elide in order to prove your point? I mean, after all, you DO like to point to Reagan as a success story. And you DID reference World War II. Are we now supposed to ignore that now? One wouldn't want to think you were being selective, would one? I mean, you wouldn't actually black out huge swaths of history, would you?
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, May 5, 2008 11:22 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I mentioned WW2 because YOU brought it up, and to to prove a point. That dropping two bombs helped end the war quicker and saved more lives overall. But you only seem interested in showing 1 side of the story, the one which only shows the US in the worst possible light, never once accepting the possibility that, as bad as some of the choices we made were, the alternatives were even worse.

Naw, That'd be too much for you to accept.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 5:42 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I mentioned WW2 because YOU brought it up

Well, I hate to be picky, but YOU did:

Quote:
Guess what ? Millions of civilians died in WW's 1 and 2 also, and the world actually thanked us for that too

And so since YOU brought up WWII AND WWI, and have often cited Reagan as your hero, I wonder exactly how we're supposed to hop, skip and jump through history?

Quote:
But you only seem interested in showing 1 side of the story

No, I'm not. I never said that the USA hasn't done any good. You, OTOH, were quite categorical in your statement We don't torture and kill innocent civilians. I didn't hear any exceptions or caveats. And so you've demonstrated my point quite well: Basically, you hunt for supportive data and avoid everything noncongruent. WWI, WWI, Reagan... check, check, check. Says what you want. Vietnam, Native Americans, Iran, Nicaragua, slavery, Iraq... too far in the past. Or, er... something. I'm sure you'll find a rationalization to mentally slide over several million deaths, untold suffering, and other facts that make you uncomfortable and challenge your views.

But how do you expect to ever understand the world as it is if you have to elide so much in order for it to "make sense"? If I had to toss most data to preserve my model, I would think that the fault was not with the data but perhaps with my model. All that would be academic except that we use our mental models not only to explain the past but also to predict the future. (That's why I bow to whoever can predict the most the best: that is the REAL test of a model.) And if you're working with a model that's so limited, you will of course be blind-sided by events over and over and over again and you'll always be in reactive mode.

I can guarantee you that if stop trying to impose your views of the world on everything, if you let go of your overweening assumptions initially you'll be uncomfortable but in the end you'll get to more solid footing.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 8:26 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

As a rule, the USA does not ( present tense ) do what you accuse it of doing.

The idea that we 'torture and murder' in the name of freedom has not been substantiated here. You want to bring up slavery or any other random issue from the past, have at it, but I'm not bothering to discuss that here.

q It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 8:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Present tense? Do you mean at this very moment? What about yesterday? Or am I "allowed" to go back to the beginning of the Bush (your hero) administration, which was almost eight years ago?

And if you narrow it down to ... oh say the past year or two... how do you justify reaching back to WWI for examples of our shining goodness? If YOU point to the Founding Fathers, the Constitution, WWI, WWII can I insist that you have to stick to "today"? And if not- why not? Or do you want to only play this by your very biased rules?

Anyway, I'm done talking with you. It's clear that you don't have a sliver of objectivity anywhere in your mental toolkit.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 9:14 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Current military action, current administration.

And Bush isn't my " hero " , despite what you'd like to believe.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 9:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Okay Rap, I'll humor you. First I recommend that you go to this website http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier/testimony
and listen to what veterans of the Iraq War have to say. Many of these guys have been on multiple tours of duty in Iraq and they're from all branches. If anyone has an idea of what the war is really like, it's them.

To give you (and everyone else) a snapshot of what you'll hear and see, there's this:

Quote:
Garret Reppenhagen received integral training about the Geneva Conventions and the Rules of Engagement during his deployment in Kosovo. But in Iraq, "Much of this was thrown out the window," he says.

... Reppenhagen served in Iraq from February 2004-2005 in the city of Baquba, 40 kms northeast of Baghdad. He said his first experience in Iraq was being on a patrol that killed two Iraqi farmers as they worked in their field at night.

"I was told they were out in the fields farming because their pumps only operated with electricity, which meant they had to go out in the dark when there was electricity," he explained, "I asked the sergeant, if he knew this, why did he fire on the men. He told me because the men were out after curfew. I was never given another ROE during my time in Iraq."

Another veteran of the occupation of Iraq on the panel was Vincent Emmanuel. He served in the Marines near the northern Iraqi city of Al-Qaim during 2004-2005. Emmanuel explained that "taking potshots at cars that drove by" happened all the time and "these were not isolated incidents".

... As other panelists nodded in agreement, Emmanuel spoke of abusing prisoners who he knew were innocent adding, "We took it upon ourselves to harass them, and took them to the desert to throw them out of our Humvees, while kicking and punching them when we threw them out."

Now, I didn't go trolling the internet for horrific cases or statistics. This is just what popped up when I googled iraq+veterans+"rules of engagement".

I DID watch the testimony tho, and I suggest you educate yourself and do the same. The point of the testimony is not that it's just a few incidents here and there, it's SOP. Shooting at anything that moves, taking out frustrations on Iraqi civilians and innocent prisoners has become the ROE.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 10:16 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Okay Rap, I'll humor you. First I recommend that you go to this website http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier/testimony
and listen to what veterans of the Iraq War have to say. Many of these guys have been on multiple tours of duty in Iraq and they're from all branches. If anyone has an idea of what the war is really like, it's them.

To give you (and everyone else) a snapshot of what you'll hear and see, there's this:

You conveniently left out this part of what Reppenhagen said.

“The men I served with are professionals,” Reppenhagen told the audience at a panel of U.S. veterans speaking of their experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan, “They went to Iraq to defend the U.S. But we found rapidly we were killing Iraqis in horrible ways. But we had to in order to remain safe ourselves. http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/03/us-iraq-rules-of-engagement-thro
wn-out-the-window/

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 10:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I watched the full testimony and I suggest you do the same. The point was made, over and over and over and over that the ROE had completely broken down due to frustration, lack of clear objectives, and tacit (and explicit) approval of superior officers. Every zone was a "free-fire" zone. Innocent people were knowingly killed just because. And the contractors were even worse because they felt unbound by any military discipline. They would shoot at civilians for fun (and some military guys did the same).

This isn't just an argument. Sure you can grab a snippet and pound on it, ignore the main point and feel smug because you think you've "won", but there is real world out there where "our people" are killing civilians and becoming morally, emotionally and mentally damaged from the experience. And that's not even taking into account all the blowback that we're earning.

There were over 30 veterans that testified. Some had experiences that were worse than others, depending on where they were located and what their superior officers expected/ tolerated. So if you don't trust my summary- and there's no reason why you should- and if you REALLY want to support and honor the troops and understand what they went through, I again urge you to educate yourself and listen to what these guys had to say.

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Let's party like it's 1929.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 11:03 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Too may people here - Kirkules is only one example - already 'know' all they want to know. Asking them to include more information in an unbiased way that contradicts what they believe - is pointless.

They will never - and I mean absolutely, categorically never - avail themselves of the entire set of information. They will never get the big picture. What they will always do, as you have seen, is find miniscule bits to justify their forgone conclusions.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 11:26 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Too may people here - Kirkules is only one example - already 'know' all they want to know. Asking them to include more information in an unbiased way that contradicts what they believe - is pointless.

They will never - and I mean absolutely, categorically never - avail themselves of the entire set of information.

It's true that I look at information different than you do. I believe the USA is basically good and when we make mistakes it's not generally due to evil intent. You on the other hand, think that the USA is bad and when things go wrong you assume that it is the result of our evil nature. The main difference between you and me is that I don't delude myself into thinking I'm an unbiased observer like you do. I freely admit my biases for all to consider. The fact that I look at the same info as you and come to a different conclusion might mean I'm biased, but more likely it just means your dead wrong.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 11:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Too true, Rue. And then when things (the economy, the climate, world opinion, domestic security, you-name-it) blow up on them they wonder WTF happend.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Tuesday, May 6, 2008 11:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I believe the USA is basically good

You believe...

Well, I don't. I also don't believe "the USA is evil". I don't think that it's possible to encompass the entire population of the USA under one banner ("the USA") and in fact I'm not sure that "good and evil" are adequate descriptors for every possible behavior throughout our history. I do think it's possible for a small group of powerful people to take over a basically well-meaning population. I also think that social dynamics develop outside of any group beliefs. (For example power concentrates in ANY society.) So in general I find your "beliefs" silly and irrelevant. But if you want to wave your banner and you think it's somehow meaningful or insightful, have at it.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 11:35 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Since when is Muslim a Race? It sounds to me like Auraptor knows what he's talking about, judging by the reaction.

Are you saying by my reaction, because I'm just talking to AURaptor how he speaks to me and anyone else who doesn't pray at the altar of George Bush (who is his hero, judging by the reaction). At the end of the day, the only violent reactionary, who shares anything with Muslim fanaticism here, is AURaptor.

Quote:
Him and his buddies at the Agency have probably been watching Citizen ever since he first started spouting anti-American propaganda here.

As operatives from MI6 are watching you and AURaptor for your constant anti-non-American propaganda

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, May 8, 2008 3:12 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Cites, please.

I'm sorry I really can't be bothered looking anything up re this. I know that's me being lame

Different countries do have different rules of engagement, that's a given. When they go to war together that can be an issue. Where is the chain of command? Caused friction in WW2 and it still does today.

THe US military have a reputation for being more, er gung ho, for the want of a better expression. I know in the Balkans war there was an issue with a Canadian military chief refusing to follow an Ameican order about bombing a hospital (where enemy fire was coming from).

NATO forces have always been considered 'softer' than US ones and that pisses off the US military as well.

My response was really aimed at the poster who claimed that no country does more to protect civilian lives than the US, and I'm sorry, I just don't believe it. Doesn't mean I think that you're the Evil Empire either, just not shiny white in the world.

AS for the question about intent...does the US mean well? I'd say that the US, like other countries in the world, is predominantly self serving. The self serving is dressed up in patriotic clap trap as far as I can see, and some people swallow it and some people don't.

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