The War on College Students by SergeantX

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The War on College Students

POSTED BY: SERGEANTX
UPDATED: Sunday, January 22, 2023 18:53
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Saturday, May 10, 2008 10:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Ah, so you don't allow the real world to intrude on your parenting either.

Nice to know you're at least consistent in your delusions.

The real world? In the real world, I’ve never used drugs in my life. So this delusion of yours that drugs are unavoidable, is just that, a delusion. It’s not real. In the real world, many drugs are poisons that kill and/or ruin lives. They are not playful things to be experimented with.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 2:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Don't be more boneheaded than you can help, Finn.

If your kids choose of their own free will to not partake, so much the better, that's less work you gotta put into convincing them, and it's not like you're setting a hypocrites example since you don't partake yourself.

My point was that the idea that they would not automatically make that choice just because YOU wanted them to, and the SMART thing to do should it come to that is use that moment to address responsible use* instead of throwing a fit and alienating them when they need your guidance the most.

*- And by your standards of parenting that means none, as the parent that is your invididual decision for your family, which you have every right to make, something I am pretty stringent on respecting, as you're well aware.

Still, children are people, and inexperienced ones at that, and to deny even the possibility of such an occurance just cause you don't want it to happen is ridiculous.

I had thought you smart enough to figure that one out yourself, though.

-F

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 2:22 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I had thought you smart enough to figure that one out yourself, though.

Did you?

Really??

Come on now....

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 3:45 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It wasn’t that long ago that I was the only person, as far as I know, who didn’t smoke - so I don’t accept this argument. The difference here is that nicotine is not a very dangerous drug, all things considered. And it’s not that difficult to get off of. Over the course of the last twenty years practically every friend, and family member I’ve had, has stopped smoking without much more inconvenience then a few bitchy weeks. But heroin is not so easy to quite. Many people never manage to get off of it, even though their life crumbles around them and those that do get off, only do so after they have lost everything.

http://no-smoking.org/march01/03-28-01-2.html

"Nicotine is More Addictive than Heroin"

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4753

"Pharmacologic and behavioral characteristics that determine tobacco addiction are similar to those that determine addiction to drugs such as heroin and cocaine."

http://www.ash.org/addictive.html

"Part of the brain that may be important in addiction reacts the same way to nicotine that it does to cocaine, heroin and other addictive drugs, researchers have found."

Granted, these stories are from sites which have an agenda of their own and I belive most of what they say to be propoganda to scare the shit out of the mindless masses, including articles like these. But as long as we're going to pull fictional data out of mid-air based on our mutual desire to be the one who's right here, I figure I'll throw a few links out there of what the "experts" say.

I'll also note, while doing that, that the fact that the only time the dangers of cigarettes is downplayed like how you're doing now is when the same people who demonize the cigarettes need to defend their position on why pot should be illegal, when the argument of legality of cigarettes and booze comes up.

Quote:
And as soon as thinks like heroin are legalized, assuming it ever is, and it’s available down at the corner market or wherever, it will be everywhere. It will be like cigarettes. It will become the symbol of the real man for some people.

LOL... right. I'm a real man! I shoot up and wake up in the morning in an ally covered in my own piss and shit and vomit.

Getting pretty models with sparkling white teeth to model cigarettes, though very sinister on the part of the marketing guru's for Big Tobacco, isn't really that hard when compared to trying to glamoroize heroin use. Sure, it was made to look cool when John Travolta did it while driving that cherry red convertable in Pulp Fiction, but any desire most people would have had to run out and try it afterwards was probably taken care of when Uma snorted it up like coke and ended the night with a foot-long needle piercing her breastplate and heart. It's kinda like when I saw that X-Games thing with my friends at the I-Max years back. For a whole hour the adrenaline is going and we all want to do stupid shit on bikes and skateboards to impress the chicks and then the last part showed painfully killer wipeouts and hospital visits which put it all into perspective.

The only reason the Marlboro man worked at all is because people who smoke cigarettes can function in everyday society. Do you think people are stupid? Do you think your daughters are stupid? Do you really believe that if heroin were legalized that your daughters would run out and buy some or hang out by the 7-11 trying to get an adult to buy it for her?

I think legalization of heroin, while putting the manufacturers, transporters and distributors out of business, would nearly wipe out use of the drug in most of suburbia anyhow where life is just too good to throw away for a cheap high that you'd never get again no matter how long or how hard you chased it and let your life fall to shit all around you. The legalization of heroin would be all but the death of heroin.

Quote:
Most people won’t bother with it, but some will, and probably the young naïve ones. And like cigarettes, that story won’t last. Cigarettes for a few decades where in every nook and cranny of our country, until finally we wised up and now cigarette users are a pariah. That cycle will probably repeat much faster with heroin, because the effects of heroin are astronomically worse then cigarettes and it’s possible heroin might nearly disappear after that, but not before the pile of ruined lives peaks to an all time high.

Well man, a few broken eggs do an omlette make... I mean, you do support the War efforts being made, and the last time I checked there are many people on both sides who are dying or coming back home messed up in the head.

I can't really disagree with any of that part right there, but the fact is, when that happens it will be over. And there will be no market for it, hence there will be no money to be made supplying it. Then, on that day, I won't have to see the guy buying food at the supermarket with his Electronic Benefits card and pulling out of the parking lot in a Hummer anymore. (the one that I keyed on the way into the supermarket). I don't see much of a problem with a short bought of letting Darwinism take its course to end the "War". I know you don't feel sorry for me right now for being a smoker. And I wouldn't feel sorry for your daughters for being heroin junkies either. That's your job and your problem. And really, it shouldn't be that much of a problem. You don't strike me as a non-caring parent or an idiot, so just do your job and either way they won't be junkies and whores.

Remember, the sad truth is, if your daughters wanted any of this stuff right NOW it is VERY easy to get, regardless of the fact that it's illegal. Even if your daughters don't know the right houses to pull up to in the shady neighborhoods, I can guarantee that there are boys at their high-school that do. It's your job to make sure that your daughters are smart enough to respect themselves and stay the hell away from boys like that.

Quote:
As far as your parenting advice. I don’t buy into the defeatist view of parenting. I don’t assume that children will be fuck ups, so that I must protect them from themselves by providing them with the tools and encouragement they need to make shitty decisions, because I assume they will make them anyways.

I don't know where you get that from. That's not what I said at all. I do believe that without guidance that kids have the potential to make a lot of fuck ups, but I had little to no parental guidance growing up, I was a latch-key kid who watched my brothers every day after school and though I've experimented later in life (after highschool, suprisingly) I didn't turn out a helpless junkie, and on top of that I'm the only person I know who's not rich that has Zero debt whatsoever and a 2 year salary nestegg saved up.

Just do your fucking job as a parent and your kids already have much of a head start on my shitty messed up childhood.

Quote:
So I don’t feel the need to expose my children to drugs so that they can become potheads and junkies in the safety of my living room. I think they are smart enough to avoid using drugs, my lack of faith in them will serve to do nothing more then make them feel as if they aren’t smart enough and make them more likely to become drug users.

Now I know what's going on... You're mixing up what I said with what Frem said. Though I find him to be the person who I agree with by far the most on these boards, no two people are ever 100 Percent in agreement on everything. I'm not sure if would allow my backyard to be my kids pot sanctuary, but I will say that I was blown away one night when I was 18 and I went to a friend of a friends apartment one night (who lived with his 14 year old sister and single mom) and she was sitting there passing around the joint. Not to the daughter, mind you, but I had to admit that they seemed to talk to their mom in a way and be more comfortable around her than I ever was around either of my hypocritical parents.

I will say that Frem never said that you should be the one to introduce your kids to drugs. That's just asenine. I also know that he respects children more than anyone on these boards including you, so I know that he didn't ever say that they're helpless cases off the bat either. You're just twisting words again to suit your argument here.

Regards,
~6sJ

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 9:57 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I'll also note, while doing that, that the fact that the only time the dangers of cigarettes is downplayed like how you're doing now is when the same people who demonize the cigarettes need to defend their position on why pot should be illegal, when the argument of legality of cigarettes and booze comes up.

You can believe whatever “studies” you want. I’ll believe my own eyes. I’ve watched as dozens of people quite smoking with nothing more then inconvenience to their social life. And I’ve watched as people have thrown away their marriage, their job, their family and then started robbing for drug money because they couldn’t get off narcotics. And while I’ve never witnessed it myself, there are people who sell young children as prostitutes, for narcotics. So if you want to tell me nicotine is more addictive then narcotics, I say that’s a laughable degree of ignorance.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I think legalization of heroin, while putting the manufacturers, transporters and distributors out of business, would nearly wipe out use of the drug in most of suburbia anyhow where life is just too good to throw away for a cheap high that you'd never get again no matter how long or how hard you chased it and let your life fall to shit all around you. The legalization of heroin would be all but the death of heroin.

Maybe, but not before the bodies pile up.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Remember, the sad truth is, if your daughters wanted any of this stuff right NOW it is VERY easy to get, regardless of the fact that it's illegal. Even if your daughters don't know the right houses to pull up to in the shady neighborhoods, I can guarantee that there are boys at their high-school that do. It's your job to make sure that your daughters are smart enough to respect themselves and stay the hell away from boys like that.

Perhaps you could explain that to Frem.

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Saturday, May 10, 2008 10:22 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You can believe whatever “studies” you want. I’ll believe my own eyes. I’ve watched as dozens of people quite smoking with nothing more then inconvenience to their social life. And I’ve watched as people have thrown away their marriage, their job, their family and then started robbing for drug money because they couldn’t get off narcotics. And while I’ve never witnessed it myself, there are people who sell young children as prostitutes, for narcotics. So if you want to tell me nicotine is more addictive then narcotics, I say that’s a laughable degree of ignorance.

Though I doubt that you've actually witnessed dozens of people quit, nor being a smoker myself could I ever believe that you have ANY idea what these people go through and for how long it really lasts when they do quit, I do have to agree that I don't belive those studies either. And being that you're not on my radar for being a rabid anti-smoker I can't label you a hypocrite here either. So I will concede this one to you. I just hope you got my back when somebody trys shoving that one down my throat sometime in the future.

As for the sale of underage children for heroin, I doubt that much if any of that is actually happening stateside except in urban legend, and on the off chance it is happening in some place like (innercity Detroit?), it's only because of the circumstances currently surrounding the drug and how it is currently handled in this country.

I have no doubt this stuff happens pretty frequently in countries that sell their daughters for cattle. If your kid is just a commodity to be traded, what's the difference if it's for cattle or for heroin?

Quote:
Maybe, but not before the bodies pile up.

I never said otherwise, although I think you're dramatizing it a bit here. In fact, I did pretty much state the same thing in other words. (that you conveniently didn't quote)

But the same thing could be said about our involvment currently in Iraq. Or it could have been said about our intervention in WWII, or when America decided to stand up for it's independence from England, etc...

Personally, I think the long term benefits of such actions massively outweigh the short term problems caused by it. If the "War" were effective in ANY measure, I might think otherwise. In terms of lowering interest in drugs, it has failed. In terms of lowering availability of drugs, it has failed. In terms of lowering crime, it has failed. In terms of punishing the pushers instead of the users, it has failed. Really, the only thing the "War" on drugs has been successful at is contributing a pretty large chunk of the Federal Deficit which you're going to be passing on to your daughters sometime in the near future.

Quote:
Perhaps you could explain that to Frem.

Frem doesn't need that explained to him. He's in agreement 90% on this issue with you. 100% about keeping the kids off mind altering substances in the first place, I believe. The difference here comes in how he would handle the situation of his children's drug use differently after the fact.

At this point though, either of you have failed at your job, with the perameters you've decided that your job as a parent are, and your child has decided that they want to go against your wishes and abuse (whatever their substance of choice). You just need to remember that the fact that there is a "War" on these substances has only increased their availability and even though you dont' see them in your local pharmacy today, kids will find out where to get them from other kids who know if they're looking. Trillions a year could be spent to prevent this and the result would still be the same. The only prevention is good parenting. By high school, and trust me on this for I grew up with it, D.A.R.E. has become a joke and kids that wear a D.A.R.E. T-Shirt risk an ass beating.

Not having any kids of my own, I couldn't tell you how or what I'd do after the fact if my children started smoking. I'm only 28 and unmarried without children so I've got a bit of time to figure that one out for myself. I'd try my best not to be a hypocrite, but I do understand that can be difficult at times when being a parent, especially if that's how your parents raised you and it's all you know. I'm speaking of my own rearing here, and not implying anything about your own Finn.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, May 16, 2008 2:57 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

So.... we're done here?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, May 16, 2008 5:30 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Awww crap, Finn, why do you go and post such stuff as this ? How do you expect us to take you seriously ?

Quote:
I’ve watched as dozens of people quit smoking with nothing more then inconvenience to their social life.

I watched as my father quit - each time he was in the hospital and couldn't smoke, saying he would never go back to smoking - but then he did. I watched as the realtor who sold me my house tried to (again) quit cigarettes, even as she rolled her little oxygen tank around. Just a couple years later, she was dead of emphysema. She tried everything to quit cigarettes over many years - hypnosis, the patch, aversion therapy, will power - many, many times. Nothing worked. And why is that, you say ? Because people who have two genes for a dopamine receptor variant (dopamine is the 'addiction' brain chemical) can't quit the way others can. People who have 1 variant gene and 1 regular version have a very hard time, people who have both regular genes can quit quite easily.

Quote:
And I’ve watched as people have thrown away their marriage, their job, their family and then started robbing for drug money because they couldn’t get off narcotics.

Strangely enough, I've seen the same for alcohol. In fact, alcoholism is the most common life-destroying addiction around. So your point is - what, exactly ?

Quote:
And while I’ve never witnessed it myself, there are people who sell young children as prostitutes, for narcotics."

But is that a function of the addiction, or of the cost, or of the illegal nature (which is also drives cost and means they have to acquire their drugs illegally) ?
When you take cost and legality out of the picture you find that indeed, people steal from their families, lie to them and eventually abandon them to maintain their alcohol addictions. Clearly their alcohol addiction is more important to them than their own children. So alcohol and 'narcotics' are alike that way.
And if nicotine impaired people like alcohol you'd see the same thing for that, too. People would have to make a choice - quit and be able to do a regular life, or keep on smoking and let the rest go. And then you'd see just how addictive nicotine is. As it is people can do both, which masks nicotine's addictive nature.

Quote:
So if you want to tell me nicotine is more addictive then narcotics, I say that’s a laughable degree of ignorance.

It is FAR more addictive. Internists - real doctors who face the problem every day - who deal with people who quit cigarettes decades ago - routinely ask about cravings b/c they know it's an important factor in relapse. Just because no one is going around telling you that it's been 20 years and they could go right back tomorrow (and why would they tell you anyway ?) doesn't mean they don't feel it every day.

It's clear to me you know very little about addiction beyond the BS of the tobacco industry and the so-called war on drugs mantras.

So, when it comes to sheer ignorance, you have an appointment with the mirror.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Friday, May 16, 2008 6:57 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
http://no-smoking.org/march01/03-28-01-2.html

"Nicotine is More Addictive than Heroin"

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4753

"Pharmacologic and behavioral characteristics that determine tobacco addiction are similar to those that determine addiction to drugs such as heroin and cocaine."

http://www.ash.org/addictive.html

"Part of the brain that may be important in addiction reacts the same way to nicotine that it does to cocaine, heroin and other addictive drugs, researchers have found."

Nicotine has been shown time and again to be one of the most addictive drugs there is, both in how quickly it addicts, and how long it takes to shrug it off. Contrary to Finn's (I'm really sure he's telling the truth) subjective observations, most people can't quit without a substantial amount of help. That's why a whole industry has grown up around giving up smoking. That's not to say some people can't give up smoking 'cold turkey', it's how I did it, but most can't. Some people can give up Heroin cold turkey too.

In fact I suspect I have that regular gene Rue is talking about. I found quitting quite easy beyond a few disparate cravings, if everyone really found it half as easy as I did, I find it hard to believe that there'd be any need for Nicorette.

Of course, reality runs counter to Finns mantra, so he doesn't care what reality is all about, eh

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, January 22, 2023 6:53 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

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Quote:
Karin Lips, the president of the Network of enlightened Women

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