The Pickens Plan. Your Opinion? by Skywalken

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I put my vote towards the unpopular Nuclear Power. I'd be happy to see every powerplant in the U.S. a nuclear power plant. The whole nation has electric outlets. We can all get electric vehicles. Now that quick charge batteries and 200 mile endurance is becoming a reality, we really have no need or cause to burn anything for fuel.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, July 14, 2008 10:06 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

It's good that the tycoons are starting to get behind this kind of idea. If they realize it will make them money just as well as oil, we might have a chance. It sounds like a pretty decent plan to me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Skywalken:
I don't know how reliable wind power really is.

As to that, my family and I have been signed up with wind power since it became available here, and it's provided all of our electricity for years. Our power has also not gone out in years.

You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.

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Monday, July 14, 2008 11:16 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I put my vote towards the unpopular Nuclear Power. I'd be happy to see every powerplant in the U.S. a nuclear power plant. The whole nation has electric outlets. We can all get electric vehicles. Now that quick charge batteries and 200 mile endurance is becoming a reality, we really have no need or cause to burn anything for fuel.

What are you going to do with the spent fuel rods?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, July 16, 2008 10:06 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Sorry, I don't trust nuclear power plants. The risks far outweigh the rewards. Some will point to France & other countries, but to me it's irrelevent. Nuclear plants are disasters waiting to happen, whether by accident or by terrorism. I like coal and shale conversion, and more drilling & refining of the oil opportunities we have now.

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Wednesday, July 16, 2008 11:25 AM

WASHNWEAR

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Skywalken:
What are your opinions on the Pickens Plan?

It does not matter what we think. Its a private plan...if he can make it work, good for him.

The problem is that most of what he's proposing will never happen.

H

Why for you say that, Sinister Litigator?

EDIT to add "the".

It was like the wet kiss at the end of a cold fist when we got here!

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Wednesday, July 16, 2008 1:30 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
What are you going to do with the spent fuel rods?

Make glowsticks?

But really, they're just like any other hazardous material. Millions of gallons of gasoline, propane, and dangerous chemicals are transported and stored every day. Why should spent fuel rods be any different? If they last longer, bury them deeper.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, July 16, 2008 3:40 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

The High Cost of Nuclear Power

Nuclear power generates approximately 20 percent of all U.S. electricity. And because it is a low-carbon source of around-the-clock power, it has received renewed interest as concern grows over the effect of greenhouse gas emissions on our climate.

Yet nuclear power’s own myriad limitations will constrain its growth, especially in the near term. These include:

. Prohibitively high, and escalating, capital costs
. Production bottlenecks in key components needed to build plants
. Very long construction times
. High electricity prices from new plants

The carbon-free power technologies that the nation and the world should focus on deploying right now at large scale are efficiency, wind power, and solar power. They are the lower-cost carbon-free strategies with minimal societal effects and the fewest production bottlenecks. They could easily meet all of U.S. demand for the next quarter -century, while substituting for some existing fossil fuel plants. In the medium- term (post-2020), other technologies, such as coal with carbon capture and storage or advanced geothermal, could be significant players, but only with a far greater development effort over the next decade.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, July 16, 2008 6:51 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I grew up with Nuclear Power, from our neighborhood Turkey Point power station.

I always figured that spent fuel rods should be encased in lead, and stored on the site of previous nuclear testing. That minimizes the risk of contaminating pristine ground if a mishap should occur.

With a good part of our Navy using nuclear power, it just seems to me the rest of us might as well benefit from the technology. A catastrophic accident is about the only thing that would make nuclear power a bad idea, and the plants now are engineered specifically to make Chernobyl and 3 Mile Island mishaps a rather unlikely scenario.

I think traditional oil/coal plants do much more to impact the environment, to be honest.

The alternatives, such as wind and solar power, are expensive, voluminous and impractical using our current technology. (My opinion only, based on articles I've read in the past. Feel free to educate me.) I do advocate developing these technologies further as I would like to see the day when reliance on expendable resources is close to zero.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, July 16, 2008 7:09 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
The alternatives, such as wind and solar power, are expensive, voluminous and impractical using our current technology. (My opinion only, based on articles I've read in the past. Feel free to educate me.)

I thought I already had, as I stated for myself that it's worked like a dream for me and my family. If personal experience isn't enough, I could point to businesses I know of in this state that are using solar or wind power exclusively. I'm sure there are others across the country that I wouldn't have encountered as well. So it's not impractical in the sense of not working or not being worth the money put into it. As for expensive, yes, it does cost money, just as every form of power or fuel does. Oil pumps and refineries were not built for nothing, either. Nuclear power, likewise, would not come without any expense. The advantage that sun, wind, and water have is that they will not cause explosions, contamination, or waste. Not even that .01% chance of it.
We have the technology. Have had it for years. And it won't develop any further than it has unless it's refined through use. Moving forward with something like this will only make it better and more practical than it already is, because necessity is, after all, the mother of invention. I think this is a definite situation where the devil you know is far, FAR worse than the devil you don't. I will tell you again that the devil you don't know is much more reliable than you think, and isn't going to blow up in your face.

You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.

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Thursday, July 17, 2008 12:55 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
What are you going to do with the spent fuel rods?

Make glowsticks?

But really, they're just like any other hazardous material. Millions of gallons of gasoline, propane, and dangerous chemicals are transported and stored every day. Why should spent fuel rods be any different? If they last longer, bury them deeper.

They last more than 10 thousand years. Any contact with the outside world will cause widespread radiation poisoning. It's unlikely that we'd even be able to construct a storage facility that could last that long, but even if we could how do we stop people a few thousand years from now cracking it open, after the knowledge of what it is, and the language the warning signs are written in, is long since dead?

No country has long term plans for radioactive waste storage.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, July 17, 2008 3:59 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080715165441.htm

Rock Port, Missouri, First 100 Percent Wind-powered Community In U.S.
ScienceDaily (July 16, 2008) — Rock Port Missouri, with a population of just over 1,300 residents, has announced that it is the first 100% wind powered community in the United States. Four wind turbines supply all the electricity for the small town.
"We're farming the wind, which is something that we have up here," Crawford said. "The payback on a per-acre basis is generally quite good when compared to a lot of other crops, and it's as simple as getting a cup of coffee and watching the blades spin."

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, July 17, 2008 5:28 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Three things.

I guess the wind studies indicate the most wind is in the plains. But I've been wondering why they don't look at places that were seaports during the age of sail. Must be good wind there.

Seems to me that Mr. Pickens' plan has more than one stage. Early on he said he was only eliminating nuclear power from the equation because it will take too long to develop. My bet is after he makes a bundle on wind he'll start building nukes.

Last, do you think the new natural gas vehciles will be hybrids or just direct burn?

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Friday, July 18, 2008 4:16 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Based on the data in Rue's post, it would take 230,770 wind turbines to power the United States.

How many Nuclear plants would it take, and what is the cost in materials, build-time, real estate, and currency to accomplish both?

Such details might make a logical appraisal of the options possible.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, July 18, 2008 4:40 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

They also export extra power, so there is an unknown discount on that figure.

Also, since not all places are suitable for wind power - don't forget solar power. If you are going to build and you need to put on a roof, or if you need to re-roof --- why not solar ? You could roll the cost into general building costs. That would be the way to go in sunny areas.

Plus you haven't included the cost of nuclear waste storage and disposal, which would have to be included in the total cost of nuclear power. Because long, long, long after the plant has been decommissioned, cost is still accruing.

If I had more time I'd look for studies - I'm sure there have been at least a few. Some engineer type somewhere has done some pencil-whipping on this. But I think the calculations are probably not as simple as might seem on first glance.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, July 19, 2008 9:40 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Such details might make a logical appraisal of the options possible.

Sun and wind aren't going to contaminate the world!
I'm sorry, but that's really the only appraisal I'm interested in looking at. I think being sure of continued habitability is more important than price tag. If we had spent all the assets put into war these last oh-so-many years on this sort of thing, we'd all be sittin pretty on clean self-reliance. And possibly new roads, new schools, and health care for every single one of us, too...
*ahem* Excuse me. I get terribly tired of hearing that money is such a problem when I know how much is being poured into death and trauma.

You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.

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Saturday, July 19, 2008 9:52 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Expense isn't important because it's important to you. You have an idea you love and you embrace it. "Save the Environment!" Hurrah.

Unfortunately, outside the confines of your skull lives a greedy, selfish world.

I have always said that the key to the environment was not to be found in proof of man-made global warming, nor evidence of the toxicity of our lifestyle.

Rather, the key to the environment is in the pocketbook. This has been demonstrated by real-life events in a startlingly clear fashion. Hybrids and Electric cars are evolving from high-minded fashion to practical large-scale reality. Why? Not because we want to save the environment. It's because gas is expensive, and we want to save our wallet.

So do not dismiss the money that props up your desires for a cleaner tomorrow. It turns out that the root of all evil is the only motivating force that moves the common man. Use it to your advantage. Prove your ideas will save money, and everyone will want to buy them.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, July 19, 2008 10:35 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

That's a rather lemming-like approach, I must say.

So far, that ciff up ahead that I'm scampering to isn't causing ME any pain ...

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, July 19, 2008 12:26 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Well,

You can try to improve human nature or you can work with what you've got.

I say practical, immediate self-interest beats likely future benefits 10 out of 10 times where human beings are concerned.

Just because we have faculties that allow us to perceive future danger does NOT mean we have the wisdom to avoid it, most ESPECIALLY when an immediate effort is required for a future benefit.

The pocketbook, Rue. Not because I say so. Because humans are like that.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, July 19, 2008 1:07 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

It's not human nature to be a lemming, which is - to have the mentation of a 2-year old that can't consider anything beyond immediate pleasure or pain, to be driven to follow the crowd, and to live by instinct and without learning and training.

Unless you really think humans are lemmings.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, July 19, 2008 3:29 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
.....I say practical, immediate self-interest beats likely future benefits 10 out of 10 times where human beings are concerned.

Just because we have faculties that allow us to perceive future danger does NOT mean we have the wisdom to avoid it....

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

I'd say your spot on with this. Greed and self-interest are probably in our DNA. Works great for immediate survival but not for the longer term. It's a wonder societies last as long as they do.

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Saturday, July 19, 2008 3:56 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

That opinion isn't supported by science. It's just another variation of social Darwinism, which is neither related to human society nor Darwin's theory of evolution.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, July 19, 2008 4:49 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I don't know about social Darwanism. I just know what I see around me. If gas was a buck a gallon, I don't think we'd be seeing a lot of hybrids.

You are free to disagree, but keep in mind gas WAS once a buck a gallon, and what that spawned wasn't hybrids. It was Gas Guzzling SUV's.

In Europe, where 'petrol' is pricey, they've had petite gas sipping cars for a while. I see a correlation between money and human behavior.

Concern for the environment and the future of mankind? Not so much.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, July 19, 2008 5:32 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

AnthonyT

Petrol in Europe is quite expensive, and public tranport very available due to SOCIAL decisions - not supply and demand. Those societies decided early on how they wanted things to be. None of this fits into your model of economic behavior. In your mind, they shouldn't exist.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, July 19, 2008 5:38 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that people in Europe selected to pay a lot of money for petrol.

Perhaps I'll give my theory another think, as choosing to pay a great deal of money for a product when you don't have to is very different thinking from anything I've ever observed.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, July 19, 2008 5:49 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

They selected the governments which put all the policies in place. Not only did they spend lots of public money to build public transport, they then made it necessary to spend lots of money for private autos. How can this be ? How can 'people' - as a group - make such economic decisions ? Especially when all 'people' know is me, myself and mine, right now.

I did want to add a few related bits -

Human economic behavior is extremely complex. I know that many economic theories have been created around the supposed 'rational economic actor'. And yet, not only do people NOT work that way economically (people are risk aversive and that will consistently bend their path away from risky opportunities), they don't work that way neurologically either (pleasure centers light up during cooperation where both win a little less rather than one winning more and the other losing).

If the only thing that drove people was short-term naked economic self-interest (ie greed), it would take exactly one generation for humans to die out. Think about it - who's going to win the competition for food and water - the young male or the heavily pregnant female with one in her arms and two more at her feet ? Males would out-compete females at every turn. And there goes the females, and their children. And where would the human race be then ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, July 19, 2008 6:31 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Expense isn't important because it's important to you. You have an idea you love and you embrace it. "Save the Environment!" Hurrah.

Unfortunately, outside the confines of your skull lives a greedy, selfish world.

I guess I should stop considering things that go boom and things that cause illness and anything else that will kill a lot of people and make a lot of others suffer.
Oh, wait... money is no object when it comes to war and desructive power sources, so perhaps people just like to suffer and die? Either way, I should leave them to it.

You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.

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Sunday, July 20, 2008 7:07 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

If the human race is cooperative and future-planning-happy, then how have we gotten into our pickle?

I'd like to believe this pretty picture you're painting about a care and care alike far-seeing society, but I just don't see it in the corner of reality where I live. Do you?

Where were the hybrids in the nineties, and who killed the electric car? Presumably, we who had all the reason to care about the environment and limited resources should have been putting people in power in our 'society' to make these forward-thinking environment-friendly ideas a reality.

Why is our friendly-wise-cooperative human society in the US only embracing these things when the wallet is weighed down? Why, if we are so cooperative and wise, are we swayed by the current-times and not preparing for the far-future times?

I feel a strong disconnect between what I see and what you describe.

Hey, I want to believe. I just don't see it here around me.

--Ant

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Sunday, July 20, 2008 7:08 AM