OOPS - McCain not US born. by rue

ummm That's not true. Title 8, Section 1403 of the United States Code grants citizenship to those born in the Canal Zone with at least one parent who is a United States citizen.

Course it would certainly be funny it it were!

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
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Friday, July 11, 2008 9:21 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

That didn't happen unti McCain was about 1 year old. Which makes him - not US born.

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Friday, July 11, 2008 9:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Huh.

Curious.

I wonder if anything will come of this?

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Friday, July 11, 2008 9:33 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Yeah, I thought 'natural born citizen' meant born on US soil? Maybe there's a broader interpretation than that, I don't know. Maybe it means not having a different citizenship before you have a US citizenship?
I'll laugh if it means he can't run, though. Don't know who they would find to replace him this close to the election.

You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.

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Friday, July 11, 2008 9:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Yeah, I thought 'natural born citizen' meant born on US soil? Maybe there's a broader interpretation than that, I don't know.

Generally it means born on US soil, or to US parents, or on US bases or ships or hospitals even if located outside the US, unless specifically prohibited. The key in McCain's case, and this was examined in both 2000 and back during New Hampshire primary, is his US parents.

I'm sure PN and the like are salivating at the chance to sue the illegal immigrant, John McCain...but this issue has been eight years dead (more if you count Chester A. Arthur, who many claim was born in Canada, Mitt Romney's dad who was born in Mexico, Barry Goldwater and Vice President Charles Curtis who were both born in US territories prior to their becoming States).

For the record, John McCain was born in 1936 in the Canal Zone on a US Naval Air Station.

H

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Friday, July 11, 2008 9:55 AM

PHYRELIGHT

Way I understand it, a US military base, fort, embassy, etc. outside of the United States is still considered 100% US soil. If McCain was born on a US base or fort in Panama to his military parents, then he is considered by all technicalities a natural-born US citizen at the time of his birth. The article did say that he was born in Panama, but it didn't say whether or not if he was born on a US military base or fort.

Darksiders can keep their cookies. We have better writers.

Grrr. Argghh.

Really can't wait to see Cap'n Tightpants sing!

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Friday, July 11, 2008 9:58 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

'Hero' - take it up with Prof. Chin:

There are, Professor Chin argued in his analysis, only two ways to become a natural-born citizen. One, specified in the Constitution, is to be born in the United States. The other way is to be covered by a law enacted by Congress at the time of one’s birth.

A series of early-20th-century decisions known as the Insular Cases, he wrote, ruled that unincorporated territories acquired by the United States were not part of the nation for constitutional purposes. The Insular Cases did not directly address the Canal Zone. But the zone was generally considered an unincorporated territory before it was returned to Panama in 1999, and some people born in the Canal Zone when it was under American jurisdiction have been deported from the United States or convicted of being here illegally.

The second way Mr. McCain could have, and ultimately did, become a citizen was by statute, Professor Chin wrote. In Rogers v. Bellei in 1971, the Supreme Court said Congress had broad authority to decide whether and when children born to American citizens abroad are citizens.

At the time of Mr. McCain’s birth, the relevant law granted citizenship to any child born to an American parent “out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States.” Professor Chin said the term “limits and jurisdiction” left a crucial gap. The Canal Zone was beyond the limits of the United States but not beyond its jurisdiction, and thus the law did not apply to Mr. McCain.

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Friday, July 11, 2008 10:08 AM

JONGSSTRAW

I say great!

Repubs need a better candidate anyhow....Romney, Guiliani, Abraham Lincoln, etc...anybody's better than McCain.

Could be some balance of the yin-yang sort, 'cause I believe that Obama will not be the Dem candidate, it will be Hillary.

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Friday, July 11, 2008 11:03 AM

CITIZEN

Come on, if both his parents are US Citizens, then he is even if he was born on the moon.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, July 11, 2008 11:08 AM

All children born to US citizens on a US military base overseas are US citizens, we all get birth certificates from the state department. We are all "natural born citizens" of the US. US military bases overseas, embassy's and consulates ARE US soil.

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"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, July 11, 2008 11:25 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Hate to say it, but I'm with Hero on this one. Somehow, I don't like to think of my sister and my oldest brother as being NOT Americans, simply because they were born on a US air base in Germany.

I don't think it's going to derail McCain's candidacy at any rate. What it *might* do is result in a lawsuit AFTER the election, if he happens to win. But even at that, if it went all the way to the Supreme Court, my bet is that they'd rule that McCain is a "natural-born" US citizen.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Friday, July 11, 2008 11:28 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Citizen

Given the topic your handle is weirdly appropriate. Anyway - what can I say ? I didn't write the constitution.

According to the Contitution, there are two ways to be born a US citizen. One is to be born on US soil - hence illegal immigrants have 'anchor children' in the hopes that since the child can't be deported the parents won't be. "The other way is to be covered by a law enacted by Congress at the time of one’s birth."

Apparently such a law didn't exist until McCain was about 1 year old.

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Friday, July 11, 2008 11:30 AM

Rue

You and the Professor are missing the point. McCain (as was I and my brother and thousands of other "natural born citizens") was born on a US INSTALLATION, not unicorporated territory.

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Friday, July 11, 2008 11:36 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

FMF

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/05/citizen_mccain.htm
l

"Here is what a State Department manual on U.S. citizenship has to say about children born on U.S. military installations:

Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth."

My high school class had a child born in Germany to US parents stationed there. Unlike the rest of us who got to travel quite easily to Canada for class trips (we were close to the border), our schoolmate needed his birth certificate and/or passport every time.

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Friday, July 11, 2008 11:54 AM

Rue

I was born in Asmara, Eritrea, Ethiopia on Kagnew Air Force base. I am a "natural born citizen". I have a birth certificate from the State Department that proves it. I have held a Top Secret Compartmented SCI clearance with the US Government. I have vetted other US Citizens and foreign nationals for Security Clearances with the US. You can believe me when I tell you that the child of US Citizens that is born on US installations in foreign countries are natural born citizens.

eta - your friend was probably born in a German Hospital. He/she would have then had a german birth certificate. Being the child of US parents He/She would have the option to have dual citizenship, US citizenship or German citizenship. Had he/she been born on a US military base he/she would have had a US birth certificate. The operative phrase in this is "born ON a US installation".
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, July 11, 2008 11:58 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

FMF

I suspect that while you are without doubt a US citizen, you would not be considered 'natural born' as required by the Constitution.

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Friday, July 11, 2008 12:05 PM

and I suspect that you would be incorrect and that I would have more knowledge of this since I, in fact, have lived this issue for the last 43 years.

I have drafted requests for birth certificates for children born to US parents on a foreign installation and distincly remember checking nautal born and not naturalized.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, July 11, 2008 12:17 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Like the Gov realliy GIVES a shit what the Constitution says ?

Yeesh, go look up William Howard Taft, and the legal status of Ohio before, during and after that presidency.

To the scum lining the top of the circle amongst the elite, the rules are just a mere formality for them, and only apply to us peons to "keep the rabble out".

And that's a fact.

-F

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Friday, July 11, 2008 12:22 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

There was an act passed in 1795 which provides for citizenship for children of US parents born outside of US territory, but it doesn't include the language "natural born" to describe the type of citizenship.

Added: I suspect the writers (I refuse to call them the 'framers', they weren't Amish raising a barn.) had this in mind: US citizens would stay in Europe and elsewhere for extended periods of time. (Even children would be sent 'overseas' for education, 'finishing', and to make contacts.) After all - what was the US except a backwater, especially to the better-off ? I suspect the writers had some worry about 'nominal' citizens - those who'd been born elsewhere and lived their formative lives overseas. They might have worried about such a person's allegiance. And so they didn't want such a person to be in a position to run the country.

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Friday, July 11, 2008 1:25 PM

Quote:
'Hero' - take it up with Prof. Chin:

I don't think that's going to be necessary - I think Professor Chin is going to be the one to have to "take it up" with the courts. I have little doubt that SOME group will take it up with the courts, if for no other reason than just to be a pain in the ass to McCain's campaign and to clarify things once and for all. I doubt that any of this will be decided in time to make any difference at all, and I doubt that McCain will be disqualified to run, or if he wins, to serve.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong; I'm just saying that I don't think McCain is suddenly going to drop out of the race and say, "I'm not a real American, sorry." Now, if Schwarzeneggar wanted to run for the Presidency, it would be a pretty cut and dried case, because he's not a natural-born citizen in any sense of the word.

I suspect that the Supreme Court would rule that the law you're speaking of might not have been passed until 1937, but it was "in effect" before that, and the law itself only reiterated what was already true. In other words, it doesn't "grant" citizenship to those people like McCain who were born in the Canal Zone, it only clarifies that they were already citizens in every sense of the word.

But that's just my meager understanding of it...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Friday, July 11, 2008 1:57 PM

The term "natural born" means people who at the moment of birth had the right to US citizenship. Title 8, Section 1401 of the U.S. Code defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:" or "natural born"

Anyone born inside the United States

Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe

Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.

Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national

Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year (Such as a military base overseas)

Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21

Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)

a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.

Anyone falling into these categories is considered natural-born, and is eligible to run for President or Vice President.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, July 11, 2008 2:10 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Obama is the son of the British Crown, so what's the big deal ?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, July 11, 2008 2:52 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Title 8, Section 1401 of the U.S. Code

When enacted?

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Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, July 11, 2008 3:01 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

FMF

Not to spend too much time on it, but the title you refer to reads: "The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth: ..."

The Constitution reads: "No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States."

For some reason, Congress, as it passed various laws regarding citizenship, has not seen fit to include "natural born" in the laws.

The various articles I've read by Constitutional scholars (and I've provided links to two of them) indicate that indeed, this IS a problem for McCain and not a slam-dunk, and the only way to resolve it is either a Constitutional amendment or a ruling by the Supreme Court.

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Friday, July 11, 2008 3:04 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Ahhh Rap, as usual, talking outa' your ass - again. Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, U.S.A., two years after Hawaii achieved statehood.

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Saturday, July 12, 2008 2:10 AM

PHYRELIGHT

Rue,

FMF isn't wrong. People born to US parents on military bases outside of the country ARE natural-born citizens of the United States of America. Not only was she born under these conditions, but also my brother, and many of my friends who come from military families. They all have US issued birth certificates that say so, as do many, many, many others, including McCain who (as you said yourself) was born on a US Naval Base. No ifs, ands, buts, commas, dashes, semicolons, asterisks or any other punctuation about it other than PERIOD.

Darksiders can keep their cookies. We have better writers.

Grrr. Argghh.

Really can't wait to see Cap'n Tightpants sing!

http://www.drhorrible.com

... Oh, my gosh. I've turned into one of those people with a crazy signature! ACK!! O_o

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Saturday, July 12, 2008 3:08 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
The Constitution reads: "No person except a natural born citizen...

So those delivered by caesarian section are right out, then?

But really, you might as well question Sen. Obama's citizenship. After all, he is the illegitimate (maybe) son of a Kenyan man and an American woman (His parent's marriage possibly being void because Obama Sr. was already married in Kenya when he married Sen. Obama's mother). Is it possible that he could have (even if he doesn't claim it) dual citizenship? Does this disqualify him as a "natural born citizen"?

You're grasping at straws, Rue.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, July 12, 2008 4:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
At the time of Mr. McCain’s birth, the relevant law granted citizenship to any child born to an American parent “out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States.” Professor Chin said the term “limits and jurisdiction” left a crucial gap. The Canal Zone was beyond the limits of the United States but not beyond its jurisdiction, and thus the law did not apply to Mr. McCain.

So another law was passed in 1936 that applied Specifically to children born in the canal zone to US parents.

H

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Saturday, July 12, 2008 4:48 AM

Quote:
Obama is the son of the British Crown, so what's the big deal ?

So much for "dealing with facts"...

HOW is Obama "the son of the British Crown", exactly? You've been hanging out with PirateNews too long - next you'll be explaining to us that Obama is really a Bilderberg-Rothschild-Jew-Muslim-Rockefeller-Bush-Clinton who's vowed to sell kiddie porn to Israelis!

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Saturday, July 12, 2008 5:00 AM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
So another law was passed in 1936 that applied Specifically to children born in the canal zone to US parents.

Which if you want to be all constitutional about it that law cannot be applied in this case. There being that pesky no ex post facto laws clause. Though in the broader case I think McCain's Natural Born Americanness isn't in any real doubt. Both his parents were Americans so he is too. That clearly is and was the intent of the laws in question and the constitutional requirement at issue.

David

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

http://xkcd.com/386/

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Saturday, July 12, 2008 1:04 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Barack Hussein Obama is a citizen of Kenya in the British Commonwealth Empire. There is also a question of what nation he was born in. Obama is cousin to both Bush and Cheney. How is that change?

If you want to pick on McCain, start with him making 32 propganda broadcasts to support Communist North Vietnam during the Vietnam Wars, during his VIP vacation. Then McCain blocked rescue of 25,000 US POW/MIAs from 3 wars. And his father-in-law is a mobster.

"You can't stop the signal!"
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

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Saturday, July 12, 2008 1:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
FMF
The various articles I've read by Constitutional scholars (and I've provided links to two of them) indicate that indeed, this IS a problem for McCain and not a slam-dunk, and the only way to resolve it is either a Constitutional amendment or a ruling by the Supreme Court.

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Oh Bullshit. If you want to object to McCain, then do so on legitimate grounds. Not this stupid, juvenile misdirection and misinformation crap. This is exactly the kind of crap that the Republicans are trying to do to Obama, and the fact that you are perpetuating it is unbelievable!

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Saturday, July 12, 2008 2:01 PM

Quote:

Oh Bullshit. If you want to object to McCain, then do so on legitimate grounds. Not this stupid, juvenile misdirection and misinformation crap. This is exactly the kind of crap that the Republicans are trying to do to Obama, and the fact that you are perpetuating it is unbelievable!

THANK YOU!!!

There are plenty of legitimate beefs to have with McCain, but his citizenship isn't one of them.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Saturday, July 12, 2008 2:06 PM

PHYRELIGHT

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Oh Bullshit. If you want to object to McCain, then do so on legitimate grounds. Not this stupid, juvenile misdirection and misinformation crap. This is exactly the kind of crap that the Republicans are trying to do to Obama, and the fact that you are perpetuating it is unbelievable!

Right there with you, sister!

Darksiders can keep their cookies. We have better writers.

Grrr. Argghh.

Really can't wait to see Cap'n Tightpants sing!

http://www.drhorrible.com

... Oh, my gosh. I've turned into one of those people with a crazy signature! ACK!! O_o

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Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:25 AM

TRAVELER

The question comes down to what does McCain's birth certificate say. Did his parents go to the consulate and get a United States birth certificate?

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Monday, July 21, 2008 3:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Which if you want to be all constitutional about it that law cannot be applied in this case. There being that pesky no ex post facto laws clause.

The 'words and the intent' of the Ex Post Facto Clause encompass '[e]very law that changes the punishment, and inflicts a greater punishment, than the law annexed to the crime, when committed.' Calder v. Bull, 3 U.S. (1 Dall.) 386, 390 (1798) (opinion of Chase, J.).

H

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Monday, July 21, 2008 4:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Obama is cousin to both Bush and Cheney. How is that change?

He's a distant cousin to Cheney. How is that change? Same way that Franklin Roosevelt was a huge change from Teddy Roosevelt.

Quote:

If you want to pick on McCain...And his father-in-law is a mobster.

What? Oh, a mobster. I thought you said MONSTER, which is ironic because King Kong was on TV this weekend. By your reasoning that makes King Kong McCain's father AND head of a major New York crime family which, ironically, secretly controls NBC and Saturday Night Live on which Jack Black got his start before going on to play an evil movie mogul in...King Kong which was produced and directed by Peter Jackson who filmed three Lord of the Rings movies in New Zealand starring, Ian McKellen who also starred in X-Men with Halle Berry thus Barrack Obama and George Bush are cousins and sacrifice babies to satan.

As always you make perfect sense.

H

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Monday, July 21, 2008 8:03 AM

Quote:

What? Oh, a mobster. I thought you said MONSTER, which is ironic because King Kong was on TV this weekend. By your reasoning that makes King Kong McCain's father AND head of a major New York crime family which, ironically, secretly controls NBC and Saturday Night Live on which Jack Black got his start before going on to play an evil movie mogul in...King Kong which was produced and directed by Peter Jackson who filmed three Lord of the Rings movies in New Zealand starring, Ian McKellen who also starred in X-Men with Halle Berry thus Barrack Obama and George Bush are cousins and sacrifice babies to satan.

You forgot to mention the Jews. In every conspiracy, there HAVE to be Jews. Hitler was a Jew, who started the whole WWII thing so that we'd capture his Jew rocket scientists so that we could put a Jew on the Moon - or at least make people think we had!

Mike

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Monday, July 21, 2008 8:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
In every conspiracy, there HAVE to be Jews.

Thats what the Jews WANT you to believe.

The real truth is that the Jews are not involved in anything, but the Jews have gone to great lengths to hide that simple fact. The question is...why?

H

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Monday, July 21, 2008 10:47 AM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Which if you want to be all constitutional about it that law cannot be applied in this case. There being that pesky no ex post facto laws clause.

The 'words and the intent' of the Ex Post Facto Clause encompass '[e]very law that changes the punishment, and inflicts a greater punishment, than the law annexed to the crime, when committed.' Calder v. Bull, 3 U.S. (1 Dall.) 386, 390 (1798) (opinion of Chase, J.).

And yet I think in this instance the clause could very well apply. Except I don't think the born in Panama thing itself probably doesn't disqualify McCain as a natural born american. Also except that the current makeup of the supreme court makes any decision that would invalidate the election of a Republican unlikely regardless of constitutionality.

David

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

http://xkcd.com/386/

I has myspace - http://www.myspace.com/daveshayneforpresident

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Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:
The question comes down to what does McCain's birth certificate say. Did his parents go to the consulate and get a United States birth certificate?

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

Actually as long as his birth certificate indicates that his parents are both Americans then he doesn't need anything else. If he was born on the Canal Zone that I lived on as a kid then it says he was born on a US installation.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:40 PM

TRAVELER

If he was born at a United States Installation then his birth certificate must be standard issue.

I don't see the problem. If it was an issue I suspect it would have been resolved before McCain's campaign got this far. If anyone had a real case it would have been dealt with.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:
If he was born at a United States Installation then his birth certificate must be standard issue.

I don't see the problem. If it was an issue I suspect it would have been resolved before McCain's campaign got this far. If anyone had a real case it would have been dealt with.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

There is no issue. Just a bunch of people trying to stir up stupidity. And frankly there are other reasons NOT to vote for McCain. This is not one of them.

ETA: The point that everyone seems to be missing is that ALL you need to be a US citizen is to be born to 2 US CITIZENS. Regardless of where or when.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, July 24, 2008 3:23 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

FMF

Being a union board member and steward, one thing I've become very conscious of is precedent. Every rule and procedure can be brought into question by one bad precedent. That's my main interest and concern. It has nothing to do with whether or not McCain is good enough to be president (and no, he isn't, IMO).

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Thursday, July 24, 2008 3:25 PM

Rue

There is NO PRECEDENT. He was born to US Citizens. Period.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
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Thursday, July 24, 2008 3:28 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

FMF

I can see this is a hot-button issue with you. But remember - I wasn't posting MY opinions - they were the opinions (in plural) of legal experts. If you don't like their opinions perhaps you could take it up with them.

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Thursday, July 24, 2008 3:45 PM

My hot-button-issue is that intelligent human beings that I tend to respect are contributing to the deliberate misdirection of bringing this subject up. The Democrat Law Professor that says he has "no political agenda" in bringing this subject up is full of crap and is basing his argument on semantics.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, July 24, 2008 5:43 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

FMF... merely re-asserting the same opinion over and over gain w/o credible evidence doesn't prove your point. Aside from "everybody knows", do you have any information to back your claim? (Sorry if you've previously presented it; it must be buried in the thread)

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Thursday, July 24, 2008 5:48 PM