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Originally posted by rue:
"Do you want to be a Citizen , or a 'subject' ?..."

And uhhhh, are we supposed to rally around this, at this point ? Have you given up on facts ? Is this your final argument ?

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Originally posted by SignyM:


Yes, gold has had a historic value. But the only "intrinsic" value that you can point to is the fact that rich people seem to value it. So you're basing your valuation on the belief and opinion of others. And values based on "opinion" or "belief" is still speculation. Put it this way: If gold were so intrinsically valuable, why would it's price (in USD) fluctuate from $850 in 1980 to $253 in 1999?

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In its impact on industry and employment, the depression of the 1890s was on a par with the Great Depression of the 1930s. In some places it began before 1890, in a deep agricultural crisis that hit Southern cotton-growing regions and the Great Plains in the late 1880s. The shock hit Wall Street and urban areas in 1893, as part of a massive worldwide economic crisis. A quarter of the nation's railroads went bankrupt; in some cities, unemployment among industrial workers exceeded 20 or even 25 percent

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we shall answer their demands for a gold standard by saying to them, you shall not press down upon the brow of labor this crown of thorns. You shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold.

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Originally posted by rue:
They why don't you reply to my (fact-filled) post which contains a whole lot more than slogans and personal attacks ? I think I do a pretty god job explaining where the 'value' of gold comes from. And no, it isn't intrinsic. Certainly not more intrinsic than silver (whose price tanked as demand for film went down) or less intrinsic than copper (whose price went up as technology and building expanded).

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If Silver is cheaply valued versus bank notes , that's the ideal time to buy !

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Originally posted by SignyM:
O2B- you're conflating about four things. But if silver has an intrinsic value, it's exchange value shouldn't rise and fall either. PS please read my post about the cross of gold.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
O2B- for someone who seems to be aware of monopolistic manipulations, your knowledge of their history is about as deep as a slogan.

THE GAY NINETEIS

Gay Nineties is an American term that refers to the decade of the 1890s.

The decade was a period of extremely exceptional economic expansion, and, in particular, of rapid wealth gains in New York City and Boston. The American empire of trade was at one of its zeniths, and cities were growing rapidly. While the same decade saw an explosion of immigration to the United States from less economically prosperous lands, and consequently no gaiety for the working classes it was a period of vast wealth for a newly emergent "society set". The railroads, the agricultural depression of the Southern United States, and the dominance of the United States in South American markets and the Caribbean meant that industrialists of New England were doing very well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_Nineties

You might also want to read The Great Gatsby and Anna Karenina to see how the wealthy class' experience can be totally divorced from everyday reality. Don't confuse one with the other.

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Hello, I think we can safely say that gold has a worldwide appeal and value that exceeds the worldwide appeal and value of paper. I think we can also agree that while 'money' sometimes becomes valueless, there has been no time in the history of the civilized world when gold became valueless

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Originally posted by SignyM:
O2B- Using gold to back currency does not ensure either stability or prosperity. In the 1890s when the USA was on the gold standard, it experienced a depression as severe (some say) as the Great Depression

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In its impact on industry and employment, the depression of the 1890s was on a par with the Great Depression of the 1930s. In some places it began before 1890, in a deep agricultural crisis that hit Southern cotton-growing regions and the Great Plains in the late 1880s. The shock hit Wall Street and urban areas in 1893, as part of a massive worldwide economic crisis. A quarter of the nation's railroads went bankrupt; in some cities, unemployment among industrial workers exceeded 20 or even 25 percent

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http://projects.vassar.edu/1896/depression.html
The economy was being strangled by the scarcity of money. The silver standard was proposed instead. But there were those whe feared the loss of the "intrinsic" value of gold. To which William Jennings Bryan replied

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we shall answer their demands for a gold standard by saying to them, you shall not press down upon the brow of labor this crown of thorns. You shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold.

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http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5354/
So when we were on the gold standard it was seen as the cause of the problem.

I'll get to the real cause later.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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If Silver is cheaply valued versus bank notes , that's the ideal time to buy !

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O2B- you're conflating at least five things (maybe more, once I read your posts carefully): intrinsic value, taxes, control of currency, interest/ debt, prosperity. But for this particular point- if silver has an intrinsic value, it's exchange value shouldn't rise and fall either. PS please read my post about the cross of gold.

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Originally posted by rue:
"re: Bangle/Buzzard Picture
I don't know what the Bangle is made of, but the Buzzard is made of food."

And the gold became vulture stomach grist. Nice way to evade the point.

So mebee I'll have to be really, really explicit. If gold is so valuable why didn't starving people steal it ? Could it possibly be that gold is subject to market forces of supply and demand, and when demand drops gold loses its 'value' ? And if gold loses its value, how could that value be intrinsic ?

"Yes, Silver also has globally accepted value that 'exceeds' the globally accepted value of paper."

And how do you quantify that when your metric is the equivalence between paper (currency) and silver ? (As in silver is 'worth' so many dollars per ounce.) Your argument is circular - silver is 'worth' more than dollars because it's worth so many dollars per ounce. Or in reverse, currency is worth so much mass of silver.

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Originally posted by rue:


I understand what you're saying. But I see it as a survivalist-style reaction to the Bush policies that have devalued the dollar (quite on purpose, as an assault on the middle-class). And what you imply is that an individual survivalist reaction is just the thing on which to base national policy.

It's the policies that are at fault, not the currency. And a 'gold standard' would not improve the policies one bit.

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And to try to catch up on our cross-posting - having traded in gold I can tell you it's not quite that easy. For one thing you'd have to show valid provenance for the gold, or have it re-assayed.

But even more than that - let's say the US goes on the gold standard. What does it trade to get that gold ? See the problem ? And once it has enough gold to 'back' whatever amount of currency is out there at whatever the chosen level will be - how does it cash in on the value of its gold without disturbing the market ? Your trade and my trade don't jiggle the market one bit, but the government's would drive the market to extremes (as a consequence of gold being a commodity.)

Even further, you can have ruinous economic policies, gold-standard or no. See SignyM's historic argument and 'cross of gold' reference.

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Oh , Puhleeeze DO !

Do you ever even bother to READ the sources that you cite ?

You keep proving my points , over and over again , and you don't even know that you're doing it !

It would be somewhat less shocking if you didn't do it time and again , but you persist , Ad Infinitum!

I have laughed so hard until I've gotten sleepy from exhaustion , and you bore me so badly that I must go take a nap !

You are very tiresome , and I think it's because you've clearly been 'educated' beyond your capacity for intelligence...

I'm truly sorry about that...Plainly you have bought into the banksters Propaganda...Ah , well , some people juggle geese...

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The reason no one seems to be listenin to what yer sayin, is that belief in it is dangerous as hell to the status quo

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The United States has had public debt since its inception. Debts incurred during the American Revolutionary War and under the Articles of Confederation led to the first yearly reported value of $75,463,476.52 on January 1, 1791. Over the following 45 years, the debt grew, briefly contracted to zero on January 8, 1835 under President Andrew Jackson but then quickly grew into the millions again. The first dramatic growth spurt of the debt occurred because of the Civil War. The debt was just $65 million in 1860, but passed $1 billion in 1863 and had reached $2.7 billion following the war.

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Rue , you haven't lived under 'The Gold Standard' in your Lifetime...Neither have I...

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Originally posted by SignyM:


Now, was there such a need to be such a jerk?

...The reason no one seems to be listenin to what yer sayin, is that belief in it is dangerous as hell to the status quo...

The reason why nobody listens to O2B is because he's a insulting chimp. and that's an insult to chimps everywhere.
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Originally posted by SignyM:
There are MANY avenues towards power: religion, armies, trade, productivity, money, control of the media ... maybe even reason!...

And ultimately power converges: the rich control the government, the government controls the soldiers, the controlled media pushes an ideology (or religion), and it all feeds on itself until resulting injustice is too great to bear and it is all brought down by revolution.

My view is that the problem is far more complex than "currency" and a great deal slippier than "the concentration of wealth". Focusing on "fiat money" is silly, and it isn't backed by the grand sweep of history.

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Have you started to get a grip on the notion that certain commodities , Metals , or Elements DO have an 'intrinsic' worth ?

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Just because we want something badly doesn't make it a necessity.

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Originally posted by SignyM:


Do you suppose you could tone down the righteousness? Your spittle is flying and it's splattering my screen.

I guess first of all, I dispute your notion of "intrinsic worth". I'm not sure I know WHAT you mean by "intrinsic worth", since it seems to wobble between "supply/demand" and "inherent properties" To clarify, do you mean...?

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An intrinsic theory of value is any theory of value in economics which holds that the value of an object, good or service, is intrinsic or contained in the item itself. Most such theories look to the process of producing an item, and the costs involved in that process, as a measure of the item's intrinsic value.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Out2 - The reason no one seems to be listenin to what yer sayin, is that belief in it is dangerous as hell to the status quo and thus, both unsafe to hold and propogate, as well as requiring a near total restructuring of stuff folk have (mistakenly) believed all their lives.

Only folk who maybe WOULD listen to you, are folks who've not yet entered our debt-slave economy as worker drones, and those are mostly powerless politically.

Such a neat little trap, isn't it ?

-F

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You've already found every sort of information that you can possibly need , to draw correct conclusions...

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There are LOTS of Billionaires in Zimbabwe !

And , we ALL want to be Billionaires , Right ?

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