What kind of fu*king sh*t is this? Is this our America??? by chrisisall

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

History: classes in secondary and post secondary education wherein the bored teacher makes you read books that tell of Christopher Columbus' joyous discovery of America, the evil surprise attack on Pearl Harbour, and the big giant dominoes that almost fell in Asia.

If my Driver's Ed class went into similar enlightening detail, I never would have touched a steering wheel.

Chrisisall

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Friday, August 15, 2008 7:12 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Frem

I asked one simple question: "And, out of curiosity, as pervasive as this was, do YOU think this was benign for the children ? Was NONE of this harmful ? Just for the record."

Quote:
I hardly think being proven almost absolutely correct on every point qualifies as self-justifying BS.

And you, and your precious, beloved State, have yet to show that the behavior in question was as prevalent as you claim, or a matter of policy, rather than a handful of individuals exploiting a religions tenets for personal gain.
Just cause you want to believe something, does not make it true with no evidence to support it.
You seem to have trouble wrapping your mind around the simple fact that I wanted the bad actors locked up every bit as much as you did, but not at the expense of innocents.
The ends do NOT justify the means, not before, not during, and not after.
Frankly I find your hypocrisy on this matter disturbing, cause if it's not ok to cause harm to innocents in the course of fighting terrorism, then it is no more ok to do so in the course of prosecuting predators.
It ain't ok with me, ain't ever gonna be, neither.
And on that point, I'll not be moved.

Is this a yes or a no ? Or an evasion ?

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

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Friday, August 15, 2008 8:20 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

History: classes in secondary and post secondary education wherein the bored teacher makes you read books that tell of Christopher Columbus' joyous discovery of America, the evil surprise attack on Pearl Harbour, and the big giant dominoes that almost fell in Asia.

If my Driver's Ed class went into similar enlightening detail, I never would have touched a steering wheel.

Chrisisall

The history classes you got in primary education are a joke; the most simplistic of reasons wrapped around a few dates you're supposed to remember for a test, and that's all. When you get to college-level history courses is when your eyes REALLY get opened.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Friday, August 15, 2008 8:35 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
We've dabbled with fascism before, usually in the guise of Progressivism. In the early 20th century quite a number of American Progressives and Liberals, including Wilson and Roosevelt, considered Mussolini's Italy a model of enlightened government...

Doesn't make it right, but doesn't signal the end of the world, or even America, either...

But just what does it signify, Geezer?

I knew someone here (hoped it wouldn't be you) would trot out all the abuses of the past as justification for out current zeitgeist. But there is a profound difference and THAT's what I've noticed. What was once our shame, our dirty little secret that could only be accepted through the gauze of decades of history, has become our unabashed embrace of evil.

Did you listen to the NPR piece? Nothing they talked about was particularly shocking. Anyone but the most gullible would have to assume such abuses have gone on for a long time. It's not that this crap is new or astonishing that has me freaked out. It was the tone of the program itself that bothered me so much, the casual acceptance of the 'unfortunate consequences'. We're not even really trying to pretend we're the good guys anymore.

I think that you can tell more about a people by the willing delusions they maintain than by the gritty details. Our delusion used to be that we maintained a higher standard - that, while we might make mistakes, we aspired to virtue above and beyond what was necessary to survive. Sure, the more cynical of us always knew that bad things happened, but our nation's self-image aspired to something better. THAT's what we've lost.

To put it another way, we used to think we were the good guys because we held to higher standards of human dignity. Now we're telling ourselves that such standards aren't really necessary - because we're the good guys.

Quote:
People who are HORRIFIED act rashly and without consideration of consequences. They could easily end up merely changing one flavor of fascism for another, worse, one.

And that's exactly what I'm telling I see happening.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, August 15, 2008 9:04 AM

CANTTAKESKY

You guys ever see Children of Men?

--------------------------
Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Friday, August 15, 2008 9:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

The history classes you got in primary education are a joke

Do not make fun of my History teacher Mr. Disclafonte, he tried his best not to fall asleep behind his newspaper in class!!!

Chrisisall

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Friday, August 15, 2008 9:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
You guys ever see Children of Men?

Good, if slightly scientifically out there, flick.

Young Chrisisall

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Friday, August 15, 2008 9:23 AM

I do believe such behavior is harmful to children, at least in my opinion...

Of course, the American Psychological Association supported a paper saying it's NOT really harmful to them, which provoked Congress to actually issue a specific statement denouncing it.

Think I am kidding ?
http://www.leadershipcouncil.org/1/rind/cont.html

Regardless, *I* do think such behavior is harmful, but you have yet to show it was as "prevalent" as you claim it to be.

And you don't use a wholesale, utterly traumatic sledgehammer type intervention on an entire community to resolve the problem any more than you amputate a limb because of a scratch or scrape.

Why don't you shove your strawmen where the sun don't shine, take your fingers out of your ears, and your ideological blinders off and actually listen to what the hell I tell you instead of ignoring it and making shit up besides, for once ?

Can the fuckin sophistry, too, cause I've been pretty polite about it so far, but to be downright blunt you do not give a rats ass about those kids and never did save as an excuse to level harm at folk for the crime of thinking and believing differently than you would wish.

I wanted those bad actors removed from the community and stuck in the slam where they belong before this incident ever happened, which is even now getting done, but you on the other hand, seem to have wanted the community itself destroyed because they don't believe or practice the way YOU want them to.

This makes you no different in my eyes than Rightwingnuts or Islamic Fanatics, just another Xenophobe who wants anything "different" destroyed.

You wanna discuss the issues, then burn your strawmen and do it for once - but if you just wanna play Sophistry games...

Then go play with yourself, in both meanings of the phrase.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, August 15, 2008 10:29 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I knew someone here (hoped it wouldn't be you) would trot out all the abuses of the past as justification for out current zeitgeist.

Whoa up there, buddy. Where did you get the idea I was 'justifying' anything? I was pointing out that we've had fascist-leaning governments before, not saying they were great.

Quote:
But there is a profound difference and THAT's what I've noticed. What was once our shame, our dirty little secret that could only be accepted through the gauze of decades of history, has become our unabashed embrace of evil.

People of the time LOVED the fascist policies of Wilson and Roosevelt. No one was ashamed of them. It was no secret. What happened is that decades of revisionist history have covered up the excesses, the 'evil' if you will, that the people embraced.

Quote:
Did you listen to the NPR piece?

Haven't had a spare 30 minutes yet. I'll get around to it when I can.

Quote:
Nothing they talked about was particularly shocking. Anyone but the most gullible would have to assume such abuses have gone on for a long time. It's not that this crap is new or astonishing that has me freaked out. It was the tone of the program itself that bothered me so much, the casual acceptance of the 'unfortunate consequences'. We're not even really trying to pretend we're the good guys anymore.

"I want to assure you that we are not afraid of exploring anything within the law, and we have a lawyer who will declare anything you want to do legal"

Bush/Cheney? Nope. Harry Hopkins, FDR aide and one of the architects of the New Deal.

"When I hear a man advising the American people to state the terms of peace, I know he is working for (the enemy). Any man who refuses to back the President in this crisis is worse than a traitor."

Rush Limbaugh? No. Clarence Darrow, defending Wilson's war measures.

Again, none of this stuff is new, and it's generally not as bad as past flirtations with fascism.

Quote:
To put it another way, we used to think we were the good guys because we held to higher standards of human dignity. Now we're telling ourselves that such standards aren't really necessary - because we're the good guys.

Here comes that "WE" stuff again. Different people have different opinions, standards, and ideas of right and wrong. Just because some people have worse standards than you (or I) think are good, doesn't mean we're all condemned to share those standards.

I also note that the country as a whole does have higher standards of human dignity and individual rights than at any time in the past. This doesn't mean we're perfect, but any objective reading of U.S. history will show we're getting better rather than worse.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, August 15, 2008 10:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

I also note that the country as a whole does have higher standards of human dignity and individual rights than at any time in the past. This doesn't mean we're perfect, but any objective reading of U.S. history will show we're getting better rather than worse.

Out of sheer inability to fight the numbers or the facts, I must agree with you, though it pains me greatly not to be able to point out how we're swirling the drain for the very last time...oh wait- it doesn't pain me...I guess it's that fantasy America-hater me that keeps getting mentioned by some.

Okay, America's been through tougher times, yes. But I'm STILL gonna yell at a backslide.
And I STILL agree with Frem that we're working with dangerously corruptible social/correctional models that need massive overhauling.

Zero-killing tolerance Chrisisall

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Friday, August 15, 2008 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
FINN- you should realize that if we didn’t waste time pampering the illegal immigrants

They've ignored the hook & the line and gone right to sinker.

This is how good people are tricked into accepting evil.

And then there’s you. Who uses a man’s death to push your own single-minded agenda. Let’s be honest, you really couldn’t care less whether this man died or not. He’s just a convenient excuse for your anti-establishment rhetoric. You try to paint me as evil simply becuase I don't see things your way, but how are you not endorsing evil?

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, August 15, 2008 1:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
And then there’s you. Who uses a man’s death to push your own single-minded agenda. Let’s be honest, you really couldn’t care less whether this man died or not. He’s just a convenient excuse for your anti-establishment rhetoric.

EHHHHNH, wrong answer Hans, you wanna go to Double Jeopardy where the stakes can really increase?

Quote:
You try to paint me as evil simply becuase I don't see things your way, but how are you not endorsing evil?

I said you accept evil, better see to those reading comprehension skills, my good man.

I 'not endorse evil' by not letting it happen without notice or comment, and I don't vote for jackasses like Bush & Cheney that have 'Go Operative!' posters in their studies.

Master Po once said, "Sometimes one must cut off a finger to save a hand...", But Bush would hear it as "Sometimes one must cut off a hand to control a body...".

I DO fucking care that this man died, as I care when thousands die in an adventurist military action- the NUMBER is not important- trading lives for some perceived economic security IS NOT the way of honourable men.

Feisty Chrisisall

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Friday, August 15, 2008 1:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I said you accept evil, better see to those reading comprehension skills, my good man.

I say you are no better. And you couldn’t care less about this man’s death. It’s just a convenient excuse for you to rail against Bush and your usual political diatribes. You don’t give a damn about anyone’s opinion but your own - you don’t even know what my opinion is on the topic, only that it differs from yours and that’s enough for you to call it evil. So your opinion is evil.

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Friday, August 15, 2008 1:56 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Out of sheer inability to fight the numbers or the facts, I must agree with you, though it pains me greatly not to be able to point out how we're swirling the drain for the very last time.

So we have more individual dignity and rights than at any time before in the history of the U.S. and that's causing us to 'swirl the drain for the very last time'?

America got through Wilson jailing 175,000 Americans for 'sedition' such as opposing the draft, and Roosevelt sending 400,000 Americans to camps because their ancestors happened to come from Japan - but the comparatively light, if still not proper, actions of the current government are gonna end it all? Excuse me for being optimistic that 'this too shall pass', based on the worse stuff that's gone down and been gotten over in the past.

Quote:
Okay, America's been through tougher times, yes. But I'm STILL gonna yell at a backslide.

My point isn't 'tougher times' but that we've been through much more repressive governments, many within the last century. Compared to what's gone before, this backslide, while not good, is just a bobble. Criticize all you like, but don't exaggerate. It's not the worst thing that could, or has, happened. Deal with it as a problem, not the apocalypse.

Quote:
And I STILL agree with Frem that we're working with dangerously corruptible social/correctional models that need massive overhauling.

Somehow I suspect that your concept of how that 'massive overhauling' shoud take place is about 180 degrees from Fremd's.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, August 15, 2008 2:22 PM

SERGEANTX

Geezer, I'm telling you that I see a difference. There is a cynicism and a acceptance of authoritarian abuses that is fundamentally different than anything I've seen in my lifetime. The press is weaker and more content as a conduit for propaganda than I've ever seen.

My experience begins at the end of the Vietnam War, so I'll admit a limited perspective on the American experience. But I see a resignation to the 'necessity of evil' that is a profound shift in our nation's self-image.

I have to ask, why is it so important to counter dissent with the "nothing-to-see-here" pronouncements? We're asking for people to wake up and demand moral accountability from our leadership. You obviously see this as somehow damaging to our nation and I'm wondering why. I see a hell of lot more damage done by the blind acceptance promoted by opportunistic 'patriots'.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, August 15, 2008 3:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I say you are no better. And you couldn’t care less about this man’s death. It’s just a convenient excuse for you to rail against Bush and your usual political diatribes.

So, I don't know you but you can know me...where is that emoticon...never use it much...ah! Here it is:

(crap, it's not smiling; no wonder I don't use it much)

Quote:
You don’t give a damn about anyone’s opinion but your own

Ooooo, touchy, what is it Finn, too close to the truth of it here?

Quote:
- you don’t even know what my opinion is on the topic, only that it differs from yours and that’s enough for you to call it evil.

Okay, that reading comprehension thing again- accepting that evil is somehow necessary ain't necessarily evil in itself, it can be mere disagreement concerning the importance of human life....

Quote:
So your opinion is evil.

It...it doesn't MEAN to be...give it another chance...

Chrisisallsnarky

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Friday, August 15, 2008 3:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

So we have more individual dignity and rights than at any time before in the history of the U.S. and that's causing us to 'swirl the drain for the very last time'?

You and Finn need the same class- that was a sarcastic direction to the fact that that's NOT what I believe.
But whatever.

Quote:

Compared to what's gone before, this backslide, while not good, is just a bobble.

We're too close to agreement on this for me to go all wonky here, even though I'd like to- I just think you're takin' these days a tad too lightly is all.

(!)Chrisisall

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Friday, August 15, 2008 3:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

My experience begins at the end of the Vietnam War, so I'll admit a limited perspective on the American experience. But I see a resignation to the 'necessity of evil' that is a profound shift in our nation's self-image.

I have precisely the same experience & see it pretty much the same way, Sarge. I don't even see how one can refute this view, unless one was consumed with hatred of the left in days past, and ready to see any shift to the right a good thing no matter the cost in human rights...

isall

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Friday, August 15, 2008 8:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
It...it doesn't MEAN to be...give it another chance...

Why? Why should I? You obviously haven’t given my opinion the first chance. You assume that because it doesn’t immediately agree with you, that it’s evil. And quite frankly, in practice that kind of narrow mindedness has been the impetus of true evil much of the time. Why should I give your opinion a chance?

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 2:19 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I have to ask, why is it so important to counter dissent with the "nothing-to-see-here" pronouncements? We're asking for people to wake up and demand moral accountability from our leadership. You obviously see this as somehow damaging to our nation and I'm wondering why. I see a hell of lot more damage done by the blind acceptance promoted by opportunistic 'patriots'.

Again with the words in my mouth. Patooie! Patooie!

I've stated above that you should be concerned and suspicious - hardly 'nothing to see here'. But my main point is that we've overcome worse, and more repressive, fascist governments within the US, and done so using the mechanisms of government, i.e. we voted the bastards out. The ballot box is where we 'demand moral accountability' from our leadership. I'm all for that.

My concern is that passionate people who don't realize we can fix (and have fixed) the system from within will, with the best intentions in the world, land us in a situation where many folks believe it's prefectly all right to support those good intentions with extra-legal means. Note that the fascisti in Italy began as a group which took to the streets to bust some heads because the government wasn't working fast enough for them. Probably a lot of them had good intentions, but they broke down the checks and balances which make government work, if sometimes slowly and in fits and starts.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 2:24 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
You and Finn need the same class- that was a sarcastic direction to the fact that that's NOT what I believe.
But whatever.

Sarcasm doesn't travel well on-line. Hence emoticons.

But anyway. Name me a sixteen year period (two presidential administrations, say) in which you believe that citizens of the US have had, overall, more individual dignity and rights than currently.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Name me a sixteen year period (two presidential administrations, say) in which you believe that citizens of the US have had, overall, more individual dignity and rights than currently.

Well, I guess you could just go with the 16 years prior to the Bush Administration...

(do I sense a trap here?

)

Chrisisallsetup

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You assume that because it doesn’t immediately agree with you, that it’s evil.

Yes, it's evil, Finn.
It's in Congress.

With the Beastisall

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:04 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Frem

"I do believe such behavior is harmful to children, at least in my opinion..."

OMG ! We AGREE on something ! I'll enjoy every little morsel of that no matter how insignificant.

The problem with the FLDS is that it wasn't just some isolated lone nutcase with a yen for young compliant girls ("stay sweet"). It was the sole community leader - called god's voice on earth - who set the rules of behavior for the entire group - and who acted through his well-rewarded henchmen and community supporters, and all of whom kept his peculiar and perverse system running.

Saying it was just a few isolated abusers is like saying the Third Reich was merely a handful of insane zealots.

Ignoring that the Nazi zealots were multiplied through their positions of power, ability to make the rules, and significant popular support - and so, the Third Reich embraced the entire country. Or, Jeff's system of abuse embraced the entire FLDS community in this case.

Personally, as I have said many times, I really don't care one way or the other about polygamy (except when they use tax money to support their many families, but that's another story). As long as they're adults making a free choice it's all shiny. Nor do I care about whether or not people are religious, or whether or not their religion agrees with my lack of one.

And the FLDS may even have started out as idealistic. But all that went away when Jeff's father got rid of the council of elders and made himself the sole authority of the group, and then passed the mantle to Jeffs, whose intentions were quite venal.

BTW, I don't appreciate being threatened no matter how obliquely. And I've not been responding to YOUR misstating what I've been saying b/c I didn't want to get into an endless tit for tat. But I could, at length.

Wanna go there ? Just let me know.

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:26 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Well, I guess you could just go with the 16 years prior to the Bush Administration...

So. 1984 - 2000. Second Reagan term, Bush I, and two Clinton terms.

Unless you'd like specifics, I'll take it as read that you'd consider the Reagan and Bush I terms not particularly bastions of individual dignity and freedom. So let's jump right to the Clinton administration.

Well, we got Waco, where 76 people, including 21 children, died in a fire after a 51 day siege by ATF and the FBI. If so many people hadn't died, the whole conduct of the event by the government would be considered a comedy of errors.

Compare and contrast with the recent FLDS case, where public outrage over the seizure of hundreds of children embarrassed the State of Texas into massive backpedaling.

Nor can we forget Ruby Ridge, where an FBI sniper killed a dangerous unarmed woman holding a baby.

Then we got the "Defense of Marriage Act", passed by a Republican congress and signed into law by Pres. Clinton, which codified the denial of any Federal benefits to partners in a same-sex relationship. Although this law is still on the books, several states have stepped up by providing such benefits at the state level, and legalizing same-sex marriage or civil unions.

Until the 1996 (that's the first 3/4 of the time period) SCOTUS decision in Romer vs. Evans, it was fine for states to deny protection from discrimination to gays and lesbians.
State sodomy laws, pretty obviously aimed at gays, weren't declared unconstitutional until 2003. (Lawrence vs. Texas)

Dipping back into Reagan/Bush...

In 1989 the U.S. Supreme Court, in Webster v. Reproductive Health Services, upheld a Missouri statute that said that human life began at conception, barred the use of public funds for abortion, prohibited abortions at public health facilities and required physicians to test for fetal viability after the 19th week of pregnancy.

In Hodgson v. Minnesota (1990), the U.S. Supreme Court in a 5-4 decision ruled that states may require that pregnant teenage girls either notify both biological parents before having an abortion or seek a judicial authorization through "judicial bypass."

1991 - The U.S. Supreme Court in Rust v. Sullivan upholds a "gag rule," barring clinics from counseling women on abortion, even if the continued pregnancy threatened a woman's life or health.

More later. gotta start supper.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 11:39 AM

KHYRON

But Geezer, the assignment was: "Name me a sixteen year period (two presidential administrations, say) in which you believe that citizens of the US have had, overall, more individual dignity and rights than currently."

What you seem to be arguing is that things weren't perfect before Bush 43 either, which I'm sure Chris would fully agree with. You need to prove that citizens of the US had, overall, less individual dignity and fewer rights from 1984 to 2000 than they do currently, and I'm sure one could make the argument that the Patriot Act alone negates any advances in terms of rights and individual dignity that were made since 2000. And that would ignore all the other compromises on civil liberties that've been made in the name of the "war on terror".

Also, of the things you've listed from the Clinton years, the only thing that seems to have had an effect on the general population were the anti-gay regulations, and while it's great that some states now allow gay marriage, does this signify an overall increase in individual dignity? It doesn't really affect the majority of the population.

Finally, have the 1989, 1990 and 1991 cases you mentioned been overturned? (Serious question, not trying to be snarky)

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I'll take it as read that you'd consider the Reagan and Bush I terms not particularly bastions of individual dignity and freedom.

Know what happens when we assume?

They actually weren't that bad, domestically...
The Reagan Admin was extraordinarily ruthless in Central America though.
And Waco was Clinton's Katrina, IMO.

Burningtiresisall

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:

What you seem to be arguing is that things weren't perfect before Bush 43 either, which I'm sure Chris would fully agree with.

You got it in one, Khy.

Defusing Chrisisall

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 1:03 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
I'm sure one could make the argument that the Patriot Act alone negates any advances in terms of rights and individual dignity that were made since 2000.

You could. Go ahead and do so. List the individual freedoms you, or anyone else, have lost.

Quote:
Also, of the things you've listed from the Clinton years, the only thing that seems to have had an effect on the general population were the anti-gay regulations, and while it's great that some states now allow gay marriage, does this signify an overall increase in individual dignity? It doesn't really affect the majority of the population.

Okay. So as long as we're just discriminating against the gays or slaughtering the fringe populations it's not important to overall individual rights and dignity? That sort'a refutes your Patriot Act argument, since it's not going to have much affect on many people. Certainly less freedom than was lost to the anti-gay laws, and less lives than at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

If you take rights from an entire class of people just because of who they are, and not due to any wrong they've committed, you take rights from everyone.

Quote:
Finally, have the 1989, 1990 and 1991 cases you mentioned been overturned? (Serious question, not trying to be snarky)

Haven't checked yet. Had to grill chicken. I'll get back to it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 7:25 PM

Pffth, I hardly think me being less polite is really the kinda threat anyone would ever find apalling, to be honest there...

That bein said -

Jeffs is scum, absolutely, undeniably, and pure poison to that community and their beliefs, I wanted his ass gone since before most folk even heard of FLDS, I don't think we'll find any disagreement there - although since the authorities initially failed to follow up, and when they did, did so in the most destructive and counterproductive way possible, it's been a hassle and a half.

In part because no one acted quickly, Jeffs quickly pulled in some other folk of like mind who must also be removed, and thanks to a great deal of supporting evidence given to us freely, and then passed on to the prosecution voluntarily (as opposed to evidence collected by an invalid warrant which got tossed) some of these perps are getting their comeuppance, and I can't see you having an issue with that, neither.

Did the communitys isolation and beliefs make them an easy target, sure did - still doesn't give anyone the right to tell em how to live their lives or what to believe, and yeah, there's still a couple that think Jeffs is like a prophet or something, but if they wanna BELIEVE that, that's up to them, I only care what people DO.

Undoing the damage of the bad actors is harsh enough without having to undo the damage the State did on top of it, once the media coverage subsided, folk lost interest and any support for post incident counselling of any kind for those families innocent in the first place kinda evaporated - I'm still a mite pissed off about that, we got maybe THREE folk qualified for that kind of thing, and it's just not enough, although we did tap a few other people who've asked that their involvement remain discreet.

I been tryin to stay hands off cause of how some of them folk started lookin at me over the course of this - I do NOT like being held up in some theological mold I ain't suited for, and to be blunt imma piss poor role model and I know this.

Folks always lookin for a hero to save em, I guess - damn fools should realize it's better to become one than sit around on your hands waiting for one, but that's what their whole religion seems to be, dunnit ?

Anyhows, done is done, the families are reunited, and the bad actors are getting some just desserts by the barrelful, so other than the counselling issue, I shouldn't bitch...

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:12 PM

It's funny though, just how these eras stop...

Wilsons lunacy continued down the line with Harding, a classic Federalist/NeoCon type (don't believe me? do some research) who rather conveniently dropped dead, when it became apparent that all the crap he and his associates pulled was going to come out.

And then of course, he drops dead and the rats disappear back into the woodwork to come feed another day, just like what happened with Nixons pardon.

Lincoln went the same way, as did Garfield, dead men tell no tales.

Of course, all of the above were actually smart enough to know who their cohorts WERE and could have possibly named names if pressed.

On the other hand, Shrub - I suspect if we DID impeach him, AND managed to keep his dumb ass from having an "accident", we still wouldn't come out ahead because I honestly suspect the dim little bastard doesn't have a fuckin clue.

As for Cheney, he's too damn smart to talk, and probably too damn kinky to torture it out of, bastard would prolly be giving you pointers on the restraints....
(Man, could I tell you some things about Karl Rove, babieee...)

But we've never actually succeeded in a full on purge, always, ALWAYS, the collaborators and co-conspirators slip and slime away while we pound away on a mere figurehead for nothing.

Just ONCE I'd like to get these bastards rounded up and tossed in the slam as an example to future generations, if for no other reason than to forestall the onslaught of the next cycle of inevitable corruption of a system wide open to it from the very start.

Also, the excesses of the past were almost never fixed from within the system, but rather from pressure outside of it, often violent, universally illegal (just look at how COINTELPRO was exposed) and at great risk to the parties involved.

But what REALLY did them in, time and time again was the plain and simple refusal to cooperate by the greater bulk of the american people - they chose NOT to rat each other out, chose NOT to bend the knee, but silently and quietly refused to "play ball" - the same thing that in the end killed prohibition.

The differences today, which Sarge has mentioned, and I will expound on, is first and foremost an absolutely compliant media who would have turned in the folks offering the COINTELPRO documents and then buried it, instead of making it an expose - our only current check and balance against this in the modern era is the internet, and folk are thankfully making full use of that resource as the papers rail at fate, no longer being able to control the flow of information completely.

Another difference is the time factor, between making all the payments in our indentured servitude to the banks for the "privledge" of paying usurious interest greater than the value of your home or vehicle, and just trying to make ends meet with a sorely inflated faith-fiat currency, no one has TIME to freakin inform themselves, hell these days it's bad enough that folks are having serious trouble parenting their own kids cause they just ain't got time to do so, ergo obviously activism is going to take a back seat to scrambling to pay the bills - and I suspect this is entirely intentional.

But the main difference is that the current generation is full of people who worship the State with an almost religious fervor, something I find downright fuckin dangerous - and they won't hesitate a blink to turn you in, spy on you, or stab you in the back because they have no connection with you as another person, a human being... you're just a resource to exploit to them, a generation raised to venerate sociopathy, and doing a right damn good job of it.

Your life, your well being, means nothing to them, only their own, and if burning you improves their lot, or even insulates them from similar behavior directed at them, then they will do it - it's pure reflex cause it's how they were trained to think by a combination of media bombardment and the public school system.

The problem is that the roots are deeper, the poison this time around has gone far further than the surface indicators would have you believe - and with a system that was set up with deliberate loopholes for exactly this kind of exploitation, I fail to see how any kind of permanent solution can be reached short of scrapping it, which would be a BAD BAD idea at a point in time where we are overrrun by avarice-maddened sociopaths as the bulk of our society.

We need to evolve ourselves mentally, emotionally, and socially, or any structure is a lost cause, because those structures are only support for that which is already supposed to be within us, rather than thier replacements.

That's where most folk go wrong, when they think about Government, it keeps honest people honest, like a lock - but it cannot create that honesty within folk who never had it in the first place, only WE can do that, by instilling those values in future generations.

Alas, however, those of us who have, may also be dooming them to a future world in which they and their values will forever be unwelcome, which isn't a pleasant thought either.

Dunno if that's gonna come across too well, but that's my thoughts on it, if you had any interest.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:16 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Your life, your well being, means nothing to them, only their own, and if burning you improves their lot, or even insulates them from similar behavior directed at them, then they will do it - it's pure reflex cause it's how they were trained to think by a combination of media bombardment and the public school system.

That is the essence of capitalism, my friend. So unless you burn THAT out...

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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:28 PM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
I'm sure one could make the argument that the Patriot Act alone negates any advances in terms of rights and individual dignity that were made since 2000.

You could. Go ahead and do so. List the individual freedoms you, or anyone else, have lost.

I don't really see the point of doing that. First, it'd get me deeply involved in this discussion, which is something I'm not interested in and definitely don't have the time for (just wanted to point out the fallacy in your line of argument), secondly, all we'd end up doing is me listing freedoms lost after 2000, and you'll be listing a list of freedoms not had before 2000. We'll both get wrapped up in excruciating detail and minutiae and it'll end up being a pissing context about who can google more efficiently and be more terse when it comes to dismissing the other's arguments out of hand. This isn't a topic I care deeply about, so life's too short, mate, it really is.

I'll mention though that flying's a real bitch these days. They're even allowed to confiscate my laptop and external hard drives for an undisclosed length of time without suspecting me of doing anything wrong.

Quote:
So as long as we're just discriminating against the gays or slaughtering the fringe populations it's not important to overall individual rights and dignity? That sort'a refutes your Patriot Act argument, since it's not going to have much affect on many people.

Okay, you'll have to be more specific about the anti-gay laws then, because I don't ever recall them being "slaughtered". All I really know is that they weren't and, in most cases, still aren't allowed to get married.

Quote:
Certainly less freedom than was lost to the anti-gay laws, and less lives than at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

You've already said yourself that had no lives been lost at Waco, it'd go down as nothing more than a comedy of errors. But a comedy of errors with deadly consequences is a sign of a society having fewer rights and less individual freedom? That's quite a leap. Thankfully, Bush managed to save us from the oppressive Clinton regime.

Quote:
If you take rights from an entire class of people just because of who they are, and not due to any wrong they've committed, you take rights from everyone.

That's the kind of over-generalized, wishy-washy, bleeding-heart liberal statement that I never expected to hear from you. If the cornerstone of your argument is that "gays have it less tough now", I'm going to have to say that it looks like you don't seem to be able to refute Chris's claim.

Quote:
Quote:
Finally, have the 1989, 1990 and 1991 cases you mentioned been overturned? (Serious question, not trying to be snarky)

Haven't checked yet.

Well, if they haven't been overturned, I don't see the point of mentioning them.

PS: I'll be out of town for a couple of days, so I won't be able to continue this discussion. Back over to you, Chris!

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This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:34 PM

I am not a Capitalist, at least not in the form Ayn Rand *hiss* favors - never have been.
(You reallly don't wanna get me started on Rand)

Of course, to me Free Enterprise and Capitalism are far different things as well.

I find the idea of doing harm for personal profit fairly repulsive, myself, but am also all too aware that I am in a very damn tiny minority there.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:47 PM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Ayn Rand

I've only read Atlas Shrugged, but awful, awful, awful. Not only does her philosophy come across as incredibly petty and childish ("stupid, unsuccessful people don't appreciate us enough! Well, we'll show them!"), it was also one of the worst-written books I've ever read. Excruciating.

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This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

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Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:23 AM

I read Anthem as a kid. That was my first favorite book.

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Sunday, August 17, 2008 8:55 AM