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Longing for the good old days of the Soviet Union, are we?

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John McCain's top foreign policy adviser, Randy Scheunemann... was Georgia's top lobbyist in Washington until earlier this year. He has taken leave from his lobbying firm, Orion Strategies, but he is still listed as president of in the firm, which has received nearly $900,000 from the Embassy of Georgia since 2004.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
It worked for Ronald Reagan, who said We will not negotiate with terrorists while he was negotiating with terrorists. He paid Iran to hang on to the hostages until after he won the election.

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One of the most successful neocon groups was the U.S. Committee on NATO, directed by Bruce Jackson. Other board members included Randy Scheunemann, Julie Finley, and Gary Schmitt, who like Jackson have been tangled with three other organizations: the Project on Transitional Democracies, the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, and the Project for the New American Century. Both the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq and the Project on Transitional Democracies were PNAC spin-offs.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
bump for geezer

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Goddamnit Geezer, do you HAVE to put words in my mouth?

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And we certainly DON'T know the full story here, and we're not likely to hear it either.

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One strategy to winning elections and bumping popularity is to create a crisis and then paint yourself as the savior.

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The terror alert levels were a great tool for Bush, until people got bored with them. (When was the last time you heard an alert level? Do you REALLY think we're safer now than before?)

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The fact is that most people in South Oessetia see themselves as Russians- not Georgians- and have done so for the past 150 years.

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But in addition, there are maneuverings going on behind the scenes, just as there were before.

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Longing for the good old days of the Soviet Union, are we?

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Many people were glad to see the Russians roll in.

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As the Russian empire expanded into the area in the 18th and 19th centuries, the Ossetians did not join other peoples of the North Caucasus in putting up fierce resistance. Some fought alongside the Russians against neighbours who had long been rivals, while others made the difficult journey south across the mountains to escape.

By tradition, the Ossetians have had good relations with Russians and were regarded as loyal citizens, first of the Russian empire and later of the Soviet Union. They sided with the Kremlin when Bolshevik forces occupied Georgia in the early 1920s and, as part of the carve-up which followed, the South Ossetian Autonomous Region was created in Georgia and North Ossetia was formed in Russia.

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The revolt in S. Ossentia was manufactured by Russia

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On Sunday 12 November 2006, South Ossetians went to the polls to vote in a referendum confirming the region's independence from Georgia. The result was an overwhelming "yes" to independence, with a turnout above 95% from those among the territory's 70,000 people who were eligible to vote. There was a similar vote in favour of a new term for South Ossetia's president, Eduard Kokoity. Neither outcome came as a surprise, but the chances are that nobody in the international community will take the slightest bit of notice of the results.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
If the USA were so interested in "democracy" surely they would have taken account of this vote?

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The dissent in S. Ossetia was still manufactured by Russia.

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In the twilight of the Soviet Union, as Georgian nationalist Zviad Gamsakhurdia came to prominence in Tbilisi, South Ossetia too flexed its separatist muscles. Soviet forces were sent to keep the peace in late 1989 following violent clashes between Georgians and Ossetians in the capital, Tskhinvali. Violence flared again as South Ossetia declared its intention to secede from Georgia in 1990 and, the following year, effective independence.

The collapse of the USSR and Georgian independence in 1991 did nothing to dampen South Ossetia's determination to consolidate the break with Tbilisi. Sporadic violence involving Georgian irregular forces and Ossetian fighters continued until the summer of 1992 when agreement on the deployment of Georgian, Ossetian and Russian peacekeepers was reached. Hundreds died in the fighting.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Do I need to tell you how little I think of your ability to find the truth?

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siding with Russian aggression

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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siding with Russian aggression

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Did I say I sided with it? WHAT did I post, very first thing?

But I noticed that you failed to address the topic at hand.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Did I say I sided with it? WHAT did I post, very first thing?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
The South Ossetians have felt a part of Russia since (please refer to the background article that I cited three times already) and have expressed that viewpoint violently... and by vote... many times in the past (please refer to cited article) years and formally declared independence in (please see cited article).

The Georgians attacked a Russian peacekeeping force stationed in S Ossetia, most likely because the United States "fomented" problems in Georgia. The Russians responded with overwhelming force, and stomped on the Georgians, extracting concessions fomr the Georgians. McCain got to use this as a backdrop for his campaign, the Russians got to stomp the Georgians, and everybody is happy except the Georgians and Ossetians who are merely pawns in the US/ Russian game of Empire. (which the USA is winning)

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Did I say I sided with it? WHAT did I post, very first thing?

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Russian peacekeepers are waging a "fierce" battle with Georgian forces in South Ossetia and have suffered 12 dead and 150 wounded, the peacekeeping forces were quoted as saying by Russian news agencies.

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Sounds like the first thing you posted was a defense and justification of the Russian intervention into Georgia. Seems like my assertion that you miss the good old days of Soviet interventionism isn't too far off the mark, since you obviously support the same actions by their successor state.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

...Somehow, you failed to miss a whole bunch of my posts. I think it is very clear what the South Ossetians want, and has been for a long time.

Not everyone looks at Russia with horror and fear. Some nations do, like Poland. Some don't. Many are mixed. The fact that many S Osetians choose you have Russian passports gives us a good indication of where they want to belong.

However. if the Russians should try to impose an identity on Georgia or an unwanted identity on S Ossetia, it won't won't work. Just as id didn't work when the Georgians tried to impose an indentity on S Ossetia.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
omnipotent McCain.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Out2Black... you've got a lot of suppositions. Here's one: If the S Ossetians want a passport, why not choose a Georgian one?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
This is part and parcel to what I’m saying. I’m sure most people in S. Ossetia are pretty much aware of Russia’s history of 19th century foreign policy and pretty much aware of Russia’s aspiration of reassert itself over Georgia and pretty much aware of Georgia’s inability to prevent any military incursion by Russia and pretty much aware of how little the rest of the world is likely to do about it if they do...

Snip...EDIT(O2tB):

...If I lived in S. Ossetia, you can bet I’d have a Russian Passport, and I sure as hell wouldn't be caught dead with Georgian one, regardless of my ethnic or political affiliations.

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Ossetians say they have nothing in common with Georgia and that South Ossetia is an artificial creation thrown together by ethnic Georgian Bolsheviks who wanted to separate and weaken the Ossetian nation. (A much larger portion of the Ossetian people lives in North Ossetia, a part of Russia just across the Caucasus mountains from South Ossetia.) They say that throughout the Soviet era, Georgia populated South Ossetia with ethnic Georgians and restricted the use of the Ossetian language....People here blame the United States for providing military support to Georgia and emboldening Tbilisi to act against South Ossetia, and there is no ambivalence about the relationship with Moscow. Russia and Ossetia have been military allies since at least the 19th century. Moscow has traditionally relied on its fellow Christian Ossetians against the many Muslim nations in the Caucasus as well as against the independent-minded Georgians.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Seems we've reached it before.

I guess I was reacting to Finn, who seems to think that the Russians are just dastardly bastards for providing passports.

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Maybe I can get you to stop coming at me sideways ?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
So, along those lines, Finn, I think you should read your quote. The one I found so insightful that I adopted it as my signature. Maybe some day you'll grasp the full implication of what you said.

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Originally posted by out2theblack:
Maybe I can get you to stop coming at me sideways ? Guarantee , you'll see something different...

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In the thread where you got this signature, you were trying to turn this statement against me by saying that the Iraq war was an ideological war to force freedom onto the Iraqis, now you’re justifying an invasion by Russia because Georgians, according to you I guess, a bunch of fascists.

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So evidently, it’s okay to invade a sovereign democratic nation because of a separatist conflict within that nation

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No. Signym’s keen art of manipulation is really her only ace in the whole. She gets up in the morning thinking up ways of trapping people and calling them hypocrites. If you say something she agrees with she tries to manipulate the argument until she can get a statement that appears to be superficially contradictory. It’s some verbal chess game to her.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
You can go on and on about the poor little fetuses and how we should "respect human life" and then justify hundreds of thousands of equally innocent deaths of "collateral damage". You talk a good line about "freedom" but you support every invasion that we ever did and every tyrant we ever backed. You view terrorism with horror but think "shock and awe"... and its concomitant death... is okay. You even talk about eloquently... indeed, insightfully.. about the dangers of righteousness, about being so wrapped up in an idea that it is used to excuse vile action... without recognizing that you're the epitome of exactly what you fear. You support the biggest military in the world.

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You can go on and on about the poor little fetuses and how we should "respect human life" and then justify hundreds of thousands of equally innocent deaths of "collateral damage". You talk a good line about "freedom" but you support every invasion that we ever did and every tyrant we ever backed. You view terrorism with horror but think "shock and awe"... and its concomitant death... is okay. You even talk about eloquently... indeed, insightfully.. about the dangers of righteousness, about being so wrapped up in an idea that it is used to excuse vile action... without recognizing that you're the epitome of exactly what you fear. You support the biggest military in the world.-Signy

These are all your little superficial contradictions or in some cases fabricated contradictions that you’ve amassed over the years to convince yourself of the righteousness of her own views. I doubt you’ve even once actually tried to understand a different point of view, at least not mine. Instead you take views that differ from her own, manipulate them until you can find some superficial contradiction within them, or in some cases manufacture a contradiction, and then dismiss it as inconsistent with logic, but in the end, all you’re really doing is dismissing a point of view, because it’s not yours.-Finn

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Originally posted by SignyM:


You can go on and on about the poor little fetuses and how we should "respect human life" and then justify hundreds of thousands of equally innocent deaths of "collateral damage". You talk a good line about "freedom" but you support every invasion that we ever did and every tyrant we ever backed. You view terrorism with horror but think "shock and awe"... and its concomitant death... is okay. You talk about eloquently... indeed, insightfully.... about the dangers of righteousness, about being so wrapped up in an idea that it is used to excuse vile action... without recognizing that you're the epitome of exactly what you fear. Because you're so wrapped up in your ideas you can't see what you're doing. You support the biggest military in the world... a military that has over 800 installations around the globe... because you're AFRAID.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
in the end, all you’re really doing is dismissing a point of view, because it’s not yours.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
But OOC Finn, when was the last time you tried to understand MY point of view?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Is that your objective here now?

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I spent hours and hours explaining myself in detail about my views on abortion, working out every detail until you understood it.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
What I don't understand is how you can have such passionately felt protective feeelings about human life at its merest flicker of possibility... and be so callous to actual people, that they can be casually disposed of on your way to some greater idea.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Let me know when you’re ready to have a discussion about Bush that doesn’t include equating him to Darth Vader, then we’ll find out.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Basically hating me or thinking of me as evil is the only way you can justify in your mind, me not seeing things your way.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Basically hating me or thinking of me as evil is the only way you can justify in your mind, me not seeing things your way.

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Finn, I personally really want to get where you're coming from, and at times I think I'm close, but this idea that a half million Iraqi civies dead to topple Saddam's regime being an acceptable loss towards that victory just does not compute....this is the thing, when juxtaposed with your stance on abortion, that gets Signy (I believe) & me all turned around. Your definition of acceptable human termination seems quite fluid in it's application.

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Retired US Lt. Colonel tells it like it is re: Georgian-Russian conflict
In particular note what he says about Blackwater, Izzy troops, and US troops in Georgia.

What Has Really Been
Occurring In The
Russian-Georgian Conflict
A First-Hand Report By An American In Russia
By Byron J. Richards, CCN
NewsWithViews.com
8-15-8


Note: This article was written by a retired Lt.-Col. in the U.S. military, who is currently residing in Russia. His article here helps clear up much of the misinformation people have been fed by the sadistic folks in Washington who are trying to promote WWIII. -ed

In 1991, South Ossetia was promised independence from the Soviet Union, and the Georgian Republic. However, when Georgia became independent it saw an opportunity to grab some land, and the terminals for two major oil pipelines. Since Georgia is essentially bankrupt and an economic basket case, they saw this as a viable option.

It should also be understood that contrary to the 30 years old CIA report that is being circulated, Georgia is now over 60% Moslem, with Moslems controlling the government, and South Ossetia - which is surrounded on three sides by Georgia - is over 80% Orthodox Christian. This is something else that amazes me about Bush's choice of "allies."

They essentially invaded South Ossetia and installed a rather brutal military government. The South Ossetians did not want to be grabbed and they fought back, and in the fighting some Russian cities were damaged just across the border and there were a number of civilian casualties. Russia essentially said "Quit damaging our cities" and sent Russian troops to see that no more Russian cities were damaged. They became the main component in a small international (with Azerbaizhan and Tdjikistan) peacekeeping force in the region.

Comes last Thursday and the Georgians attack the Russians in South Ossetia. Once again, they are trying to isolate and grab those two oil terminals. As a preparatory move to this, they began shelling the Russian forces stationed in the area as peacekeepers...and once again overshot and hit two small Russian towns across the border.

The Russians come in to evacuate the Russian wounded and put fresh troops in place to keep the Georgians and South Ossetians from tearing up Russian cities and killing more Russian civilians in their own country. They also intended to stop a relentless Katucha rocket bombardment and standard artillery bombardment of the South Ossetian capital (which has no military significance) and has already reduced it to a pile of gravel and fine white powder -- with over 2,000 known civilian casualties, mostly the elderly and children.
The Russians tried to send in relief supplies (for all parties) and the Georgians tried to sink the unarmed, civilian transport ship. A Russian Krivak class frigate that was on a routine patrol out of Sevastopol picked up the SOS and responded. An 120 ft. missile boat is not much of a match for a Krivak class frigate... enough said. The result was splinters and an oil slick but not before the freighter had been seriously damaged and sustained numerous casualties.
The UN is sending in supplies, and no one stops them.

Because there is strong reason to believe that the US has been aiding the Georgians in the fight (just over 1,500 "advisors" on the ground from "Blackwater" that are demonstrable, and massive shipments of US arms and ammunition for the past 18 months) the Russians are suspicious of US aid, especially when it comes aboard military ships and airplanes. Comes the day the US sends aid via civilian vessels, the Russians will have no objections and have made it clear that such aid would be welcomed by all parties.

The French president is involved in hammering out a ceasefire that seems to be holding because the Russians and the Georgians and the South Ossetians all feel that he can be impartial because "he ain't got no dog in this fight." Still the Georgians have not completely ceased their offensive. They recently began shelling a Russian column that was withdrawing from South Ossetia along the only serviceable road in the region. They waited until the column was dead in the middle of the town of Gori before opening fire.

The US is fully aware of who started this and why. They are completely aware of who the aggressor is. It is inconceivable to me how Bush can go to Peking and bow down to the COMMUNIST Chinese and have "most favored nation status with both COMMUNIST CHINA and COMMUNIST VIETNAM and at the same time provoke proxy nut-cases like the Georgians and Ukrainians to attack Russia with the tacit support of the US.

At the moment, Bush is threatening to send a naval task force into South Ossetia under the guise of "humanitarian aid" and has "warned" Russia, through whose territorial waters it will pass not to be "belligerent." This is rather hollow to me. I tend to think sending a helicopter carrier and escort vessels into someone else's waters is belligerent in its own right.

How would the US feel if Russia did this in the Gulf of Mexico and "warned" the US not to be "belligerent." I seem to recall a similar incident in 1962 in Cuba.

There is currently a US infantry brigade set to deploy in Georgia and an unknown number of US military personnel set to airlift in with the "aid." The US flew Georgian troops, who took part in the wanton destruction of the South Ossetian capital into Georgia from Iraq on US transport jets. This has all of the makings of a repeat of what happened in Vietnam in '64 when Lyndon used two faked attacks in the Gulf of Tonkin to justify inundating Southeast Asia with US troops. It has "Henry Kissinger" written all over it.

This situation could get dangerous. It seems like Bush is deliberately trying to provoke a major war with Russia and this is a very bad idea. He is obviously believing his own propaganda about how "weak" Russia is and thinks our oil terminals and those in South Ossetia are easy pickings. If the US fires on, or fires at, a Russian vessel of any kind while they're delivering "aid" there is going to be a war. Nothing can stop it. No head of state could sit for it from any country. The same can be said if the reinforced Georgians resume their campaign of laying waste to South Ossetia and one more shell or rocket falls on a Russian town.

The long as short of it is that Russian forces were wantonly attacked and a defenseless city has been severely damaged. It's still going on and yet Russia is being blamed in the US as "over-reacting.

There was NEVER any intent to occupy Georgia or annex any territory for Russia as Condoleezza Rice is trying to have you believe. The entire operation was set off to STOP aggression by Georgia against a legally-mandated peacekeeping force and against defenseless civilians, and that is a demonstrable fact everywhere but in the US.
The US is now "pressuring" Ukraine to "limit" access by Russian naval vessels to a legitimate Russian naval base at Sovastapol and inciting the Ukrainians to further border raids against Russia. This is also demonstrable. It seems that Bush is determined to start a war with the "evil empire" (that only exists in his delusional mind).

US troops are currently landing in Georgia. Estimates are at least one "brigade strength" infantry unit with full equipment. They are joining the
Blackwater and Israeli troops (about 4,000 total) already present. The Bush Naval task force with yet more "aid" is supposedly in route. Whether it will be unchallenged when it enters Russian territorial waters remains to be seen.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Well this is nothing new. The Anti-War Philosophy has always been one that is prone to hateful fanaticism.

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This is the reason why hippies spat in the face of soldiers coming home from Vietnam.

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You don’t agree with the Iraq War, which is a perfectly reasonable position to take, but then you take people that feel that the Iraq War was necessary and you paint them as feeling that way because they want to kill people because you don’t want to accept their point of view, which is completely unreasonable.

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Originally posted by participant:

US troops are currently landing in Georgia. Estimates are at least one "brigade strength" infantry unit with full equipment. They are joining the
Blackwater and Israeli troops (about 4,000 total) already present. The Bush Naval task force with yet more "aid" is supposedly in route. Whether it will be unchallenged when it enters Russian territorial waters remains to be seen.

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