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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I threw in the towel on watching Trek as the quality of the writing declined and it's moral messages got rather Anvilicious

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4. Star Trek or Star Wars?
Star Trek. The original...with William Shatner. Everything else blows.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Which is why Eddingtons speech struck me as so accurate.
Also, follow up with Sisko's subsequent actions, and tell me he didn't have a point, even if Eddington WAS (imho) crazy as a bedbug otherwise.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

I'm mostly with Bruce Campbell here:
Star Trek or Star Wars?
Star Trek. The original...with William Shatner. Everything else blows.
Yeah babyisall

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
I would join Starfleet in a second.

Captain James T. Chrisisall
]


Can I be Uhura? Cause I dig the little red dress and the ear piece thingy!

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

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Originally posted by citizen:
Given that he's constantly obstructing and belittling Inara's profession in anyway he can, I think it's clear that if he was in the position to do so, he would outlaw companions.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Citizen,
This is the best analogy I can make for the Maquis situation:

A) The U.S. fights a war with the U.S.S.R. where it surrenders Alaska in a Peace Accord.

B) The willing residents of Alaska are relocated. Others choose to remain.

C) Those who remain are treated poorly (in their opinion) by the U.S.S.R.

D) The remaining Alaskans start a resistance movement to obtain independence for Alaska.

E) Some U.S. citizens sympathize with the Alaskans and move to Alaska to help their war effort.

F) The U.S. begins invading Alaska and arresting Alaskans.

G) A U.S. Navy Captain defects to Alaska.

H) The U.S. steps up its operations in Alaska, arresting many more Alaskans and putting them in U.S. jails.

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That being the case... I sympathize with the Alaskans. They didn't have the voting power to prevent their lands from being given away. Then, when they decided to fight for independence, they got clobbered by the people who gave them up to begin with.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Stay right there!

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The Federation didn't give anyone up. They gave up the Federation.

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They chose to stay, and it occurred in an episode, and Picard was very clear what that meant, I.E. no Federation assistance in the future.

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What happens to personal responsibility in the Future anyway?

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were these Federation settlers so selfish they'd rather the destruction of the Federation and the Deaths of millions, rather than a few thousand of them lose their homes?

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Lets not romanticise the Marqui as freedom fighters, they were terrorists. They didn't limit themselves to military targets, they're very first targets were Cardassian civilians settling the same worlds.

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The Marqui started attacking the military when it started moving to arm and defend Cardassian settlers.

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They probably see themselves as freedom fighters, but lets think of another analogy. Al Qaeda.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Not the way I see it - the Federation abandoned them, in spite of it's endless promises, and to be blunt, they were ok with that, if the Federation wasn't gonna stand with them as it's citizens, then the Federation could very well fuck off.
...
See above - also, the Federation demanded they leave their homes, no matter how you slice it, that is a tyrannical act, and after that rather rude wakeup call, I kinda doubt they WANTED "Federation Assistance" given it's nature.
...
The Maqui did take personal responsibility - far more than the Federation did, they never made any bones about it, this was their HOME, and they were gonna defend it, come hell or high water, and where's the personal responsibility in the Federations abandonment of their own citizens for not giving up their home to be relocated somewhere against their will ?

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All for the greater good, right ? the cry of Tyrants everywhere.

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I know *I* would fight any effort to forcibly relocate me too, fuck the Federation, for all that they demand for membership, leaving them to swing like that when the chips came down was morally reprehensible.

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In the situation as presented, letting them out of the Federation was the only sane thing TO do

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Come onto MY property and start setting up a settlement, see what happens to your thieving, tresspassing ass...

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Only we never moved into Al Qaeda's land and forcibly displaced them, the proper analogy here would go to Palestinian Terrorists kicking the shit out of Israeli settlers, and vice versa - which is a situation every bit as ugly, or even uglier, but with me, the line gets drawn when someone starts TAKING YOUR LAND.

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I'll not gainsay the Federation involvement in pursuing them, once they began committing acts against the Federation to procure resources and equipment, but the fact is that the Federation involved themselves by providing to the Cardassians - like Finn said, they brought the chair to the table, the Maquis just forced them to sit in it, is all.

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And I'd like to see you try to justify Siskos actions toward them, go on and try to justify that one, if you will.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Apparently you don't get what I was saying.

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And yeah, I know what Al Qeadas bitch is, but the situation of the Maquis far more closely resembles that of the Palestinians, if you were going to draw that kind of analogy about it, why not use the more accurate one ?

A military base isn't (usually) a colonisation and displacement attempt, putting up a settlement and burning the nearby crops to drive the locals out... that is.

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And as for the Federation "getting involved" - well, they were ALREADY involved, by providing material support to the Cardassians, something the Maquis took issue with and proceeded with aggression against the Federation over, sure.

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What I dispute, mainly, is calling them Terrorists OR Freedom Fighters, cause I don't think they fit neatly into either category.

Calling them terrorists is a pretense to deny the fact that they had a fairly legit gripe that initially had nothing to do with Starfleet, and then later on, did.

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And what I would like to see someone try to justify - is Sisko's intentional use of bioweapons against the Maquis.

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Mostly I wanted to put it across to you from the MAQUIS viewpoint - the whole screwup was not the fault of any particular individual or race, and always seemed more of a diplomacy failure than anything else - and the Cardassians were idiots for not taking advantage of Starfleets stupidity.

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And yeah, sure, from the Cardassian viewpoint these guys were a buncha tresspassing assholes who refused to leave territory no longer rightfully belonging to them, I am aware of that.

But the SMART thing for them to have done is to have signed a seperate treaty with the Maquis giving them the turf in return for cut rate goods and services, freeing up that many of their own trained people on the other end, and letting the Maquis field their own vessels and personnel to defend that section of the perimeter.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
The Federation abandoned territory as part of a peace treaty. The citizens who chose to remain were similarly abandoned. They were promised that the Federation would take no action to protect them. In other words, they were no longer Federation citizens. The Federation chose to sever all responsibility for these holdouts, and the holdouts similarly could not be perceived to have any responsibility to the Federation.

So, a clean split between the Feds and their erstwhile colonies, right?

Wrong.

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HOWEVER, the Feds got involved again. They started up undercover operations and joint strikes with the Cardies to get these Freedom Fighters under control. Why? No Fed assets were involved at this point. Why were the Feds helping the Cardies?

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To preserve their treaty. The Cardies must have said, "If you don't get these ex-colonies under control, the deal is off."

What SHOULD have been the Fed response?

"Hey bud, you wanted those planets, and now they're yours. Enjoy. Oh, and if you can't handle these brand new citizens of yours, these men, women, and children fighting you with spare parts and scraps... You sure as HELL can't handle us. So tend to your business, and we'll tend to ours."

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And without the Feds providing material aid to the Cardies in the form of intel and joint operations, there would have been no incentive for the colonists to conduct operations against the Feds.

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Somewhere in Iraq, there is a dude with a Makarov, an AK-47, and a kilo of plastic explosive. He's setting up an IED to blow up an American Humvee. He's just some dude doing what he thinks is necessary to expel foreign invaders. Invaders who took over his country and installed what he must believe is a puppet government. And while I hope we kill him and foil his plan, I'm not pompous enough to call him a terrorist. I know exactly what he is, and what we are, too. After we put some lead in his skull, and the skull of all his friends, I hope they get the consolation they are looking for in the afterlife. And I hope we do, too. God save all of us bastards.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
The greater bulk of my point Cit, is that there are situations where there just ain't any "right" choices, and you have to go with what does the least harm - but harm is still done, the choice is morally flawed, and it still sucks.

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And yes, the Maquis did use bioweapons, an utterly unacceptable thing to do by any standard, but that in no way justifies Sisko also using them from a Starfleet vessel, while serving in Starfleet and wearing the uniform - those kind of justifications always lead to the ends-means discussion, in which my stand is as ironclad as it always was, as stated in the posts above.

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I'm not sure what the resolution is. Did Starfleet turn a blind eye?

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