Re: Crime Resistance. by Fremdfirma

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Re: Crime Resistance.

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Monday, September 8, 2008 08:29
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1095
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Friday, August 22, 2008 5:28 AM

On the nature of violent resistance.

While obviously all in favor of firearms ownership, two news stories today have given me the opportunity to clarify a specific point I been trying to get across for a while, so lemme put this in focus.

Yes, having a firearm, or even lesser weapon is a great way to defend yourself from bad actors, this is true...

But more importantly, FAR more important, in my opinion, is the ACT of defending yourself - we've been taught all our lives by a social system that more or less preys on us the same way, just in a more discreet fashion, not to resist, not to fight, but rather to sumbit and "be a good (obediant) witness" so that (maybe) the cops can catch the perp and (maybe) the perp will get their comeuppance from the the courts, which I consider to be a purile fantasy bordering on hero myth.

As I've been known to tell my younger affiliates -
"When the shit hits the fan, don't wait for a hero, BECOME a hero."

While firearms make resistance less of a problem, as this story shows...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080820/ap_on_fe_st/911_at_gunpoint

That ain't all there is to it, not by far, and it's not even the greater issue here, something I feel needs clarified.

Some folk might remember me mentioning that some folk, Anarchists in particular, but not limited to them - WILL fuck your day all up if you so much as blink at the wrong moment because they just don't have it in them to meekly surrender.

This story is about as prime an example of such as there ever was, a robber who was TOTALLY depending on that trained meekness, and running afoul of someone in whom it just didn't take so well - he blinked, and that was all it took.
http://cbs13.com/local/elk.grove.store.2.799091.html

She did everything right too, did not panic, fought back intelligently, even rabidly, and won the day quite effectively.

If you listen to the interview, her reasoning is near identical, people choose to do this, and will continue to do it unless someone stops them, which is prettymuch accurate in how such criminals operate.

My suggestion to them for a defensive upgrade wouldn't be a machete though, that's a piss poor weapon for a defensive role from behind the counter as you've got no room to maneuver or use it effectively - if they don't wanna go with a firearm, a Taser or Capsicum spray with a wide nozzle is probably the best bet for the situation.

It's not the weapon though, it's the ACT of resistance, which is the more important thing.

-Frem

*Additional note: it's proven fact that if someone with a long arm (rifle, shotgun) is within arms reach, they are at a disadvantage because even a person with the most average of reflexes can swat the barrel away before they can fire, and if they cannot point it at you, they damn sure cannot shoot you with it - so if you ever find yourself in that kind of situation, remember this.

SOP is to push it away from you to the inside, get both hands on the weapon and start kicking them - at which point you are very likely to end up with it, given that you have a free and unopposed shot to sensitive points of their anatomy, and if they let go of the weapon to defend their body it's damn near certain you will.

Also worth remembering, should you be holding a burglar or whatnot at shotgun point, do NOT get within arms reach of them at any time for this very reason.

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Friday, August 22, 2008 7:01 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Any little bit helps:

http://wcbstv.com/local/jesse.trojaniak.tadieusz.2.800003.html

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Friday, August 22, 2008 9:32 AM

FREMDFIRMA

What a set of morons.

Dude, that's a Darwin Award just waiting to happen, especially since they might get mistaken for THESE morons.
http://www.local6.com/news/16639728/detail.html

Of course, they could go *after* those morons, get some john-woo action going on...
(*hear that ? the sound of dripping sarcasm ?*)

Next time, for the love of mercy, PIRATES, not Ninjas, fools... Pirates can use a dismounted cannon on the crackhouse door and remain in character...
(*drip, drip, drip*)

Those dipshits are a classic example of what not to do, in almost every explicit detail, and while they might have had good intentions, their ridiculous plan was pure suicide.

Be hell explaining THAT one to the gatekeeper of their afterlife of choice, wouldn't it ?

-Frem
*Although technically it WOULD get them into Valhalla, since Courage is a requirement and Brains aren't.

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Friday, August 22, 2008 9:52 AM

CHRISISALL

Wow, what a good role model to destabilize the silly 'helpless female' mythos!

Buffy The Dumass Slayer- for REAL!

Approving Chrisisall

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Friday, August 22, 2008 2:56 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Also worth remembering, should you be holding a burglar or whatnot at shotgun point, do NOT get within arms reach of them at any time for this very reason.

Frem:

THANK YOU FOR THIS! "Victim" isn't all about being in the wrong place at the wrong time - it's just as often about doing the wrong thing and hoping for "mercy".

Refusing to be a victim - refusing to cooperate - is a dangerous move, no doubt about it. You might get killed or injured. But meekly complying has no more guarantees - maybe by the luck of the draw you got the asshole who doesn't want to leave any witnesses behind!

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Friday, August 22, 2008 4:10 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

The thing is, you really need to have committed to the idea that you won't be a victim some time before you have to resist. You should have already decided how far you're willing to go to defend your loved ones and property. Will you kill someone to protect the lives you care about? Will you kill to protect your property? Are you willing to spend the time to learn how to carry out these decisions? When an armed burgler is coming through the door it's too late to make this type of decision.

Personally, anyone in my home with a weapon and without my permission is a threat to me and mine, has violated the non-aggression principle in a big way, and gets one slight chance to drop weapons and run. Someone going out the door with my TV can keep running. I got insurance to cover that.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, August 22, 2008 6:41 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Geeze, Kathy has a GREAT page on that whole concept, mostly from a feminine point of view, but all the more effective for it.

http://www.corneredcat.com/Mindset/corneredcat.aspx

As a side note, if someone was hauling ass with my TV and I had that kind of certainty about the shot (which'd be a DAMN lot of years ago, alas..) I mighta put one through the TV just for spite.

Yeah, I'm an asshole, but you knew that.

Anything of serious value isn't likely to be lifted by a burglar anyway, my Ex has her reasons for comparing me to Smaug, yanno.

-Frem
Bilbo vs Smaug

Ok, a lil creepy, but I ain't quite THAT obnoxious or arrogant, I think.

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Friday, August 22, 2008 7:33 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Traditionally, we are taught that we ought not to resist a criminal, because our lives and the lives of loved ones are more important than whatever money or property they might take.

Traditionally, we are taught that only police officers have the training, equipment, and responsible demeanor needed to combat criminals and resist their activities.

I often wonder what our society would look like if it was less traditional. If people were taught that it was their moral responsibility to fight criminal activity, resist criminals actively, for the benefit of society. If they were taught that yes, they might get hurt or killed, and a loved one might be at risk... but that the overall benefits to society for making criminal activity difficult and dangerous were worthwhile in the long run, making a safer world for all.

Traditionally, I'm taught that such a place would be a vigilante dystopia filled with dangerous undisciplined wackos...

But I'd like to see for myself. I think the traditional teachings might be wrong.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, August 23, 2008 5:23 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Traditionally, I'm taught that such a place would be a vigilante dystopia filled with dangerous undisciplined wackos...

Otherwise known as "The South". :) Just kidding.

We have a number of laws in places like Florida and Texas that actually protect people who resist criminals. And sometimes, those laws actually work. And, contrary to popular belief, we're not hip-deep in gun-toting vigilantes shooting it out like it's the OK Corral.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Saturday, August 23, 2008 5:33 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Traditionally, we are taught that only police officers have the training, equipment, and responsible demeanor needed to combat criminals and resist their activities.

They got guns & badges.

Five guys tried to take my bike once- they expected it to be easy, and when it wasn't, they just gave up & walked off.

GRRRRisall

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Saturday, September 6, 2008 2:51 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Blue Mound couple: 'We're fighting for our lives'
http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/880230.html

By BILL MILLERwmiller@star-telegram.com

BLUE MOUND -- Grappling over a shotgun with a 300-pound man who had just burst into his home and threatened his wife, Keith Hoehn had but one thought. "It was like a horror movie," he said. "I thought I was a dead man. We're fighting for our lives."

The overnight crime spree began late Tuesday when two suspects robbed a family in north Fort Worth and then drove the family's van to Blue Mound where they tried to do the same thing at the Globe Street home of Keith and Kellie Hoehn. "Very overt, very crazy" is how Blue Mound Police Lt. Thomas Cain described the fracas.

The Hoehns, both 34, feared that they and their children were about to be killed, so they battled the suspects.Keith Hoehn struggled to get the sawed-off shotgun, while his wife grabbed the muzzle, trying to keep it pointed away from the rooms of the couple's son, 12, and 5-year-old daughter. That went on for about five minutes, Keith Hoehn said. He finally managed to get the shotgun away from the larger of the two attackers and turned it on both of them.

Dakota Scott Benoit, 20, of Richland Hills was fatally wounded and John Garland Pierson, 25, of Haltom City was in critical condition and police custody at the hospital. Keith Hoehn, a subcontractor who works with water filtration systems, stood on his blood-sprinkled porch Wednesday and wearily retold his story to a steady stream of journalists. His knuckles were scraped raw and his back and legs were marked by cuts and bruises. Kellie Hoehn preferred to let her husband do most of the talking.

"We have been crying for hours, wondering how we even survived," Keith Hoehn said. "How could I have fought off a 300-pound man? When he got shot he kept coming. I got to figure he wasn't sober."

Public records show that Benoit and Pierson both have extensive criminal histories. The Blue Mound incident was the second home invasion they tried to pull off late Tuesday and early Wednesday, investigators said. The first one was reported at 11:11 p.m. on Calico Rock Drive in Fort Worth, about a mile east of the home in Blue Mound, according to police reports. Cain and Lt. Paul Henderson, Fort Worth police spokesman, said they didn't know how the robbers chose which houses to hit.

Keith Hoehn said he didn't know the robbers or why they targeted his home.

Perhaps, Cain said, they were "crimes of opportunity." "Just snatch and grab and go," he said.

In the first incident, the gun-wielding men entered the home on Calico Rock Drive through an open garage door and went to a bedroom where they confronted the 38-year-old homeowner and his wife, Henderson said. They demanded valuables, Henderson said. The homeowner, Henderson said, is a participant in the police department's Code Blue crime watch program, and the gunmen took his police radio. They also got a laptop, a wallet, a jewelry box, and the family's van -- a red Honda Odyssey, Henderson said.

"Children were inside the house asleep and were not harmed," Henderson said. "There were no reported injuries during this robbery."

The men took the loot and drove the family's red van to the home in Blue Mound. They kicked in the front door there at about 12:23 p.m., police said. "I was sleeping and all of a sudden they busted through the door," Keith Hoehn said. "My wife had a 12-gauge in her face, and he told her 'Don't you scream, bitch, or I'll blow your F-in head off.' "Well ... she did scream." "I screamed for my husband," Kellie Hoehn said. The gunman turned the Remington 870 pump-action shotgun toward Keith Hoehn. "I thought he was going to blow my head plumb off," Hoehn said. But Kellie grabbed the muzzle, and the struggle began. "We just tackled him," Keith Hoehn said of the man, who probably outweighed him by about 90 pounds. "I'm 220 (pounds)," he said. "All I could do was try to hold onto that shotgun. "My wife was trying to keep the muzzle away from the kids' rooms. I looked down and I saw he was pulling on the trigger the whole time. "I found out later that the safety was on -- praise the Lord." Kellie let go long enough to grab a jar candle, Keith said, "and she popped him in the head."

Then she started battling the attacker's accomplice who had a handgun, Keith said. The couple's son grabbed his little sister and they hid in a closet with a pellet gun, Keith said. The fracas spilled out onto the front lawn, where Keith Hoehn finally seized the shotgun. He fumbled with the safety and then shot at Pierson, who was already in the van, wounding him. "My wife said he had a gun," Keith said. "I didn't know if he was going to shoot us." Then he fired at Benoit. "He got right back up," Keith said, "and started charging me again. "Well, I shot him again, and I guess that was it." Police and ambulance crews arrived and took Benoit to John Peter Smith Hospital. He died at 1:13 a.m. in the emergency room from gunshot wounds to the chest and abdomen, according to the Tarrant County medical examiner's office. Pierson, meanwhile, ran to the office complex for Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad, 2600 Lou Menk Drive in Fort Worth, about a mile north of the home on Globe. Railroad police found him trying to clean up in a company fountain, Henderson said. Pierson was turned over to Fort Worth police and was then taken to JPS where he was in critical condition Wednesday, Henderson said.

Cain said he was preparing an arrest warrant for Pierson on a charge of burglary of a habitation with intent to commit another felony. Henderson speculated that Keith Hoehn probably won't face charges for killing Benoit, although it is common for a grand jury to review such a case. Tarrant County records show Pierson has nine convictions dating to 2000 on drug charges, theft, assault and unlawfully carrying a weapon. He was most recently sentenced to 45 days in jail on July 17 on a misdemeanor conviction of possession of marijuana, records show. Benoit was sentenced to three years deferred adjudication probation in May 2007 on two charges of possession of a controlled substance, one out of Haltom City and the other out of Euless. Court records show he also had a misdemeanor conviction for criminal trespassing.

Cain said he couldn't explain why Benoit, having been hit once with buckshot, would come back to fight some more. "A person in (his) right mind wouldn't do that," Cain said. "This (was) very overt, very crazy. "It seems like they weren't in their full faculties." The Hoehns on Wednesday were left with questions that may never get answered. "Why couldn't he just steal my car?" Keith Hoehn asked. "Why come into my house? You wouldn't have gotten anything more." He concluded that his family was alive Wednesday through God's protection and his wife's courage. "She's the one who set things in motion," he said. "Most people would probably say 'Take what you want,' but we thought we were going to die.

"I'm sorry it had to happen, but I can't help the way people are."

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Saturday, September 6, 2008 3:07 PM

FREMDFIRMA

One reason I chose to post this story is that it's a clear example of something I said many, many threads ago - that not everyone will just meekly kneel when you point a gun at them, even when resistance seems hopeless or suicidal.

There ARE people like that, and quite a few of them, even in todays world and society, can we agree on this ?

Which means the original assertion thrown, that such would not, could not happen, in a society with less dependance on Government, doesn't hold any water because some percentage of them exist even in this one.

Hell, even the KID grabbed his pellet gun and forted up in the closet with his sister, in an eerie paralell to the original theoretical discussion - imma see if I cannot necro the post relative to this in case folk forgot it.

-F

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Saturday, September 6, 2008 5:03 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
The thing is, you really need to have committed to the idea that you won't be a victim some time before you have to resist. You should have already decided how far you're willing to go to defend your loved ones and property. Will you kill someone to protect the lives you care about? Will you kill to protect your property? Are you willing to spend the time to learn how to carry out these decisions? When an armed burgler is coming through the door it's too late to make this type of decision.

Personally, anyone in my home with a weapon and without my permission is a threat to me and mine, has violated the non-aggression principle in a big way, and gets one slight chance to drop weapons and run. Someone going out the door with my TV can keep running. I got insurance to cover that.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

You've got it exactly right here Geezer. Many think they could use deadly force to protect their families, but when it comes time they hesitate. Like what Frem was saying about being able to swat a rifle or shotgun away before you get shot. It's has nothing to do with physical reaction time, it's mental reaction time. Most can't make the decision to kill someone in a millisecond. That's why if your not prepared to shoot someone as an instinctive reaction you better not let them get to close to you. If your not prepared to shoot someone period, you're better off not even having a gun around. While you might scare someone off with a gun, more likely they'll just take it from you and beat you to death with it, since you probably don't even have it loaded.

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Saturday, September 6, 2008 5:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Indeed.

We might not agree on much else, Kirk...

But I am pretty serious about home defense.
My preferred instrument of discouragement is an M1897 Winchester loaded with single-O buck and a flashlight so powerful you can fry an egg with it* attached to the bayonet mount.

Anyone coming through that door gets ONE chance to retreat and/or identify themselves, and if aggressive action follows, no second chance.

None of this racking the slide shit, there's one up the pipe already and the safety comes off when the light goes on, nor am I fool enough to ride the trigger till imma actually bust caps.

-F
* NOT kidding.
http://www.wickedlasers.com/lasers/Wicked_Lights-74-0.html
That horror is a weapon in and of itself, being jacklighted by that thing is quite literally a "stunning" experience.

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Saturday, September 6, 2008 6:25 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
None of this racking the slide shit, there's one up the pipe already and the safety comes off when the light goes on, nor am I fool enough to ride the trigger till imma actually bust caps.

-F

I've heard you say before that an unloaded gun is just a club. People think they're going to have time to chamber a round when the time comes because they've seen it in the movies. If someone points a gun at me and has the safety on, or I can see the chamber loaded indicator which some guns have, it almost would be tempting to stick my finger in the end of their barrel and dare them to shoot me like in the movies. I just recently started carrying a 1911 and was a little nervous at first to carry it cocked and locked, but now I feel comfortable with it. You can't be any more prepared for quick response than a 1911 cocked and locked.

I love the idea of the flashlight on the shotgun. I need to get another 12 gauge, the one I have now has to much sentimental value to take a hack saw to the barrel for home defense.

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Saturday, September 6, 2008 7:26 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, my carry piece is actually a beat up old Colt Mustang .380 that I've been packing for long years, currently carried for left handed crossdraw with the muzzle at a 45 degree rake.

Reason for that is, driving a cab, it's the best position to clear the back seat of potential threats given that you'd have to pivot to the right and the seat will foul your right hand no matter how quick you are - I shoot ambidextrous and get pretty damn small groups either way out to 25m, so I ain't too concerned about shooting leftie from short range.

Sure, it's a mousegun, but it's been a friend for so very long that familiarity has lent an edge of accuracy not usually seen with such a weapon, although wear is beginning to set it and eventually I might have to retire it for a Bersa Thunder.

Besides, if I put a trio of Corbon Powerballs into someone within an inch of each other, I rather doubt the caliber of the weapon is gonna matter that very much - rather have the puny mousegun on me, than the heavy piece in my desk at home, aye ?

That one was a gift from a friends grandfather, a genuine WWII Polish Radom Automatic 9mm Vis wz35.
Considering it looks like an earlier model, it prolly did bag some goosesteppers in it's time.

I take pride in that he felt it belonged to someone like me, but other than hanging it on the wall in a shadowbox, which I plan to do, I've no earthly use for the thing.

Anyhows, my attitude was actually formed initially by Tuco, from the Good the Bad and the Ugly....

"When you have to shoot, SHOOT!, don't talk!"
-Tuco, right after "explaining" why to some poor shlep.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, September 7, 2008 7:38 AM

KWICKO

Quote:

I love the idea of the flashlight on the shotgun. I need to get another 12 gauge, the one I have now has to much sentimental value to take a hack saw to the barrel for home defense.

Kirk, look into the Saiga S12 shotgun. It's really quite something. I was put off by it at first, as it seems a ludicrous idea - it's a 12-gauge semi-automatic shotgun based on the venerable (and foolproof/foulproof) Avtomat Kalashnikov AK-47 mechanism. In other words, it's your average AK47 in a 12-gauge caliber. :) It feeds from 5 or 10 round magazines, or 20-round drums.

They used to be dirt cheap - $300 or thereabouts. Nowadays, IF you can find them in stock, they run closer to $589. I haven't picked one up yet, but the people who have them just love them.

And several of those people are using them in matches now, despite the dirty looks they get from some of the "purists".

As for the quality, if it's anything like my Saiga 7.62x39mm, the shotguns will be just as reliable and good. I've run somewhere over 1000 rounds through that rifle, and it has experienced exactly TWO failure-to-feed jams, both easily cleared.

If you want to accessorize a Saiga shotgun, there are starting to be a LOT of options available, too.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-11/889657/Saiga_S12_CAA.JPG

Yes, that is indeed a 12-gauge "tacticool" shotgun. :)

Just tossin' that out there for consideration.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Sunday, September 7, 2008 7:49 AM

KWICKO

Frem:

Of course the argument you're going to get AGAINST this kind of thing is right there in the article itself - an earlier home-invasion robbery resulted in no injuries.

In my book, that doesn't make it okay. You stick a gun in my face, and I'm utterly convinced that (a) it's loaded, and (b) you fully intend to kill me with it. At that point in time, my options are limited to (1) fight as if my life depends on it (because in my mind, it truly does), or (2) sit meekly and wait for the bullet that ends me.

Since I'm convinced you're already going to kill me, I have absolutely nothing left to lose by fighting for all I'm worth. And if I can kill you in the process, then so much the better for society.

Am I sorry that someone had to die in this case? Given the possible outcomes, not a bit. It's pretty clear these two scumbags weren't going to just stop of their own volition, and I'd much rather they die than some innocent homeowner minding his own business. As I see it, they did us a favor by saving the Texas taxpayers the cost of an expensive, lengthy trial.

And bear in mind that I am what passes for a liberal here in Texas. I'm a normal, long-haried, hippy-type, peace-loving, war-hating liberal from way back, but I also love my guns and have a great time plinking and target shooting with them. And I buy my ammo a thousand rounds at a time. Come into my house with ill intent, and you'll leave on a stretcher, or in a hearse, or you'll have to kill me to keep one of those things from occurring. Come to steal from me, and you're gambling your life against my TV. I worked my ass off for that TV, so imagine which I hold more dear...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, September 8, 2008 8:21 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Come to steal from me, and you're gambling your life against my TV. I worked my ass off for that TV, so imagine which I hold more dear...

Point of fact - if you're not allowed to defend your property, do you really own it ?

That's the thing about dirt poor folk, they don't have much, but they WILL kill to keep it.

I had that one out with a cop over threatening with a firearm, someone who tried just that, waltzed right in the front door and tried to make off with my TV - damn cop was gonna arrest ME for that shit, no doubt with the perp (who obviously called em) waiting nearby to loot my place once they carted me off.

We had a bit of a mexican standoff as they calculated the odds of doing so without casualties, since I didn't seem the meekly compliant type.. and not liking said odds, left in a huff while offering threats should I dare further defend my property that night.

A little conversation out the back window with a pair of local hoodlums and a couple greenbacks changing hands solved THAT problem rather handily, and said perp got just desserts, courtesy of the ghetto free market system.

I know it's not a commonly held philosophy in this day and age, but my response to the lame ass submission mantra
"Just let it go, it's not worth your life.."
just happens to be...
"Fuck you, maybe I think it is."

Cause if everything you have can be simply taken from you, if the only thing ALLOWED to you is your life (and maybe not even that, depending on the mercy of thugs isn't a winning proposition) then really... is that a life you'd consider worth living ?

The act of resistance protects not only you, but everyone in your community by discouraging, rather then encouraging, the criminal.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, September 8, 2008 8:29 AM

KWICKO

Quote:

The act of resistance protects not only you, but everyone in your community by discouraging, rather then encouraging, the criminal.

Bingo. Because you and I make a conscious decision NOT to stand around and be meek little victims, maybe - just MAYBE - some others won't have to make that choice, because they won't have people trying to victimize them in the first place.

If you act like a victim, someone will come along and accommodate you.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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