Earth That Was...Is a Mystery... by firefly151

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Earth That Was...Is a Mystery...

POSTED BY: FIREFLY151
UPDATED: Friday, September 5, 2008 07:00
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VIEWED: 4561
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Tuesday, September 2, 2008 2:06 PM

Joss Whedon created a whole galactic community with Firefly. It's got rich planets, dumpy planets, and all kinds of culture. But I'd like to know more about the history of this Firefly world.
Especially Earth That Was.

In the beginning of Serenity, River's 'teacher' says, "Earth-That-Was... could no longer sustain
our numbers, we were so many."

That obviously means the world was over-populated. So...were people left behind on the Earth? What was left behind? What inspired everyone to leave our solar system? What world powers were there? What did they become? Does anyone still care about Earth (That Was) or its history? The questions go on...

Of course, any reasons would probably have to fit with the way Firefly works. Too bad we didn't find out exactly what became of our beloved Earth.

---
Keep Writing, Keep Flying

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Tuesday, September 2, 2008 3:34 PM

ROCKETJOCK

What's interesting to me is that the terraformation processes used to remake the planets and moons of The 'Verse must have been a mature technology when the exodus fleet left Sol system -- they sure as hell didn't develop it on the way!

So -- this implies that at least some of the worlds of Sol system were terraformed before the fleet departed. Maybe some were more successful than others.

So -- if you can make a dead pill like Mars or Ganymede bloom, why was Earth-that-was abandoned?

I don't think it was. I think there was a war, physical or political, to decide which side got to keep Mother Earth. The ecosphere have been badly damaged in the struggle, but not so much as to force the winners of the struggle off-planet.

I've got a feeling the ancestors of the Alliance weren't the winners of the last war--they were the losers. The proto-alliance re-wrote the history books on the long flight out, to make it look like their opponents got the short end of the stick. But winners don't abandon real estate, however damaged...

Which means the winners are still in Sol system -- and one does have to wonder what they've gotten up to by this time. . .

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Tuesday, September 2, 2008 4:47 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

It take far more resources to move people and other living things than it does to move technology and gear. So the first settlers to the new part of the 'verse were probably the very wealthiest, who could afford having much of their goods sent on ahead and then followed along, or sent their descendants, as part of their inheritance packages. As more and more 'common folk' followed, they'd be directed toward the outer planets, where tera forming had less time to transform planets and resources were scarce. Those who had less and less likely spent everything they had just to get off the crowded Earth, even if it meant arriving on a new planet with nothing but the luggage they had. Much like early immigrants to America.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, September 2, 2008 6:47 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Before we got the 'big reveal' on the Reavers in the Big Damn Movie, I always believed that they were the left-behind residents of Earth that Was.

I'm willing to bet that in any exodus, the weakest, poorest, and least skilled individuals tend to get left behind. You don't take the entire 'least common denominator' to colonize a new world. You take just enough of them to do the manual labor, and then only the elite get a pass.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, September 2, 2008 11:04 PM

FIREFLY151

I'ts great to see what everyone's saying, and there does seem to be a focus on who was left behing on Earth. I especially like the idea that other planets in our solar system (Sol) might have been terraformed... There's a lot of mystery, enough even to spawn some interesting fanfic... or perhaps, a completely different side to the story of the Firefly series. Anyhow, keep your theories coming! :)

Keep Writing, Keep Flying

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Wednesday, September 3, 2008 7:17 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by firefly151:
So...were people left behind on the Earth? What was left behind?

Just Hobbits.

Quote:

What inspired everyone to leave our solar system?

They wanted to escape oppressive taxes, govt health care, reality TV, and life was unsustainable after Barrack Obama's ego blocked the sun.

Quote:

What world powers were there?

Same as now...the Yankees, the Cowboys, and Diet Pepsi.

Quote:

Does anyone still care about Earth (That Was) or its history?

Just the ones too cool to memorize Star Trek history. (If the Browncoat fits...)

H

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Wednesday, September 3, 2008 10:09 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Very interesting topic FIREFLY151 - one of my favs - it seems almost tossed off in the show but it's as you say, full of potential.

One of the most intriguing aspects is that you can't help but think, "JW hasn't thought about this much, yet." That line, "we were too many," I always took to mean, "long story, go away... when I get to it... at the end of season 2 or 3..."

It also seems highly unlikely imho that that is meant to be read literally - population control is really not that hard to control - certainly before it would force people to flee the planet. Resources - that's another thing. That or disease or a global epidemic seems more plausible.

These are some interesting speculations...

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
What's interesting to me is that the terraformation processes used to remake the planets and moons of The 'Verse must have been a mature technology when the exodus fleet left Sol system -- they sure as hell didn't develop it on the way!

So -- this implies that at least some of the worlds of Sol system were terraformed before the fleet departed. Maybe some were more successful than others.

So -- if you can make a dead pill like Mars or Ganymede bloom, why was Earth-that-was abandoned?

I don't think it was. I think there was a war, physical or political, to decide which side got to keep Mother Earth. The ecosphere have been badly damaged in the struggle, but not so much as to force the winners of the struggle off-planet.

I've got a feeling the ancestors of the Alliance weren't the winners of the last war--they were the losers. The proto-alliance re-wrote the history books on the long flight out, to make it look like their opponents got the short end of the stick. But winners don't abandon real estate, however damaged...

Which means the winners are still in Sol system -- and one does have to wonder what they've gotten up to by this time. . .

That also sounds pretty interesting, sensational, and tantalizing, especially this little bit:

"I've got a feeling the ancestors of the Alliance weren't the winners of the last war--they were the losers."

Browncoats can't catch a break!

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, September 3, 2008 11:10 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
What's interesting to me is that the terraformation processes used to remake the planets and moons of The 'Verse must have been a mature technology when the exodus fleet left Sol system -- they sure as hell didn't develop it on the way!

Why would they travel to a new system if there weren't habitable planets waiting for them? The process of terraforming can't be a quick one, without planets already there, they would have had to stay on board ship after arrival for sometime. Clearly the Alliance core worlds are most developed, much older than the rim worlds. Perhaps these were settled first, because they didn't need terraforming? Then the terraforming technology could have been developed there.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, September 3, 2008 6:04 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Why would they travel to a new system if there weren't habitable planets waiting for them?

There weren't; that's why they had to terraform. Heh. But seriously, either they had enough faith in the terraformation technology to take a chance on finding good prospects, or they knew that their target system had a (crazy large!) number of good T-Forming prospects before they left.

Quote:
The process of terraforming can't be a quick one, without planets already there, they would have had to stay on board ship after arrival for sometime.

Joss says that the exodus/volkwanderrung that colonized The 'Verse involved at least one full generation growing up on board ship. A people used to an artificial environment from birth might not be upset at the idea of another thirty or forty years shipside, if it meant getting the job done right.

I agree that the core planets are older than the rim worlds, if only because you'd T-form the bodies closest to the life zone first. (That's to say, those worlds the right distance out from the sun for earthlike temperature without artificial measures like shadow-screens or artificial warming measures.) Those worlds would undoubtedly develop the most stable ecosystems, with the greatest biological diversity, as well.

Incidentally, while the BDM seemed to indicate that the exodus fleet all took place in a single great launching in a short period of time, I think we need to keep in mind that what we saw was, (1) an Alliance-vetted version of history, and (2) filtered though River's memory and imagination. 'Tain't necessarily so. . . .

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Thursday, September 4, 2008 12:00 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
There weren't; that's why they had to terraform. Heh. But seriously, either they had enough faith in the terraformation technology to take a chance on finding good prospects, or they knew that their target system had a (crazy large!) number of good T-Forming prospects before they left.

I say the core worlds didn't require terraforming, they were already Earth-like, that's why that system was chosen.

To be fair it contradicts really nothing we've seen on screen, unlike your assertion that the Alliance was the big loser, which given that it was an Alliance between China and the US is also somewhat logically unlikely

Quote:
Joss says that the exodus/volkwanderrung that colonized The 'Verse involved at least one full generation growing up on board ship. A people used to an artificial environment from birth might not be upset at the idea of another thirty or forty years shipside, if it meant getting the job done right.

Joss also says the Alliance didn't lose any big war on Earth...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, September 4, 2008 4:04 AM

BDHTC

This topic is so interesting to me. What really intresets me is the idea of the people left behind, because how this world works you know there were people left behind. My question is would it ever be possible for our BDHs to return to earth-that-was? is it that far away? Is it possible that travel has sped up since colonization to make it a possible but very dangerous journey?

Tah

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Thursday, September 4, 2008 6:30 AM

ROCKETJOCK

Really, Citizen? That's interesting; I wasn't aware that Joss had specifically stated that the Alliance (or it's ancestral form) hadn't lost a war. Obviously, this knocks that part of my theories into a cocked hat. May I ask your source on this?

However, since it's been stated that no alien life forms have been found in the Firefly universe (so far) I have to dispute your idea of natually habitable worlds pre-existing the fleet's arrival. Oxygen tends to bind to other elements; the only way enough there could be enough atmospheric O2 to be breathable is for an ecology (specifically, photosynthesis-using plants) to be in place.

Of course, if all Joss meant was no intelligent alien life, that argument goes out the window too. . .

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Thursday, September 4, 2008 6:57 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
Really, Citizen? That's interesting; I wasn't aware that Joss had specifically stated that the Alliance (or it's ancestral form) hadn't lost a war. Obviously, this knocks that part of my theories into a cocked hat. May I ask your source on this?

Joss has never mentioned a war at all to my knowledge, he has given us a reason for the exodus, and no war was mentioned though. I think you're playing rather arbitrarily with what can and can not be taken as gospel from the show. The reason for leaving was given as over population, lack of resources and pollution, but that doesn't fit your theory, so you wave an Alliance lie into being. It's not down to me to disprove your suggestion, it's up to you to prove it, and for me saying "I want to believe this, so obviously anything that contradicts that is a lie" doesn't quite cut it for me.

Quote:

However, since it's been stated that no alien life forms have been found in the Firefly universe (so far) I have to dispute your idea of natually habitable worlds pre-existing the fleet's arrival. Oxygen tends to bind to other elements; the only way enough there could be enough atmospheric O2 to be breathable is for an ecology (specifically, photosynthesis-using plants) to be in place.

I rather doubt Joss would have thought about it that deeply, in fact I know he didn't. I also know, from his own words, that when he said no aliens, he meant little green men. Of course that doesn't prove there was plant life, but I'm not even trying to make that argument, I'm merely saying that it makes little sense to go find another system without any planets you can be sure of colonising.

Of course another explanation is that the planets were terraformed remotely, prior to leaving the Solar System, thereby being the reason for the creation of, and the testing ground for the terraforming technology.

I'd note that some dialogue from the show is interesting in any case. Mentions of 'all terraformed worlds having their quirks' could indicate not all worlds are terraformed.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, September 4, 2008 5:44 PM

FIREFLY151

Citizen, of course we're just playing with the mysteries of the Whedon's verse here.
We don't know very much for certain, but it's just nice to ..hypothesise... what the truths might be. It's just theories, and that's what I expected and hoped for when I started this thread.

Keep Writing, Keep Flying

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Thursday, September 4, 2008 8:07 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Hmm. Citizen, if my previous post seemed snarky, I apologize. I didn't mean to raise hackles, nor to cherry-pick from Joss's statements. And as I stated, if Joss said, in so many words, that war was not a part of the reason the proto-alliance left earth, then, as I said, that part of my scenario is obviously wrong. I'm just curious about where he said that.

With that out of the way, let's get back to the original question of what was left behind on Earth-That-Was.

In my "war" scenario, I assumed a repair-capable ecosystem with pre-existing terraformation tech; in this case,or something similar, Earth-That-Was is probably getting along fine, happy that they've thrown the troublemakers out. Different assumptions would, of course, lead to different results.

It's possible, for example, that the solar planets were never terraformed successfully. Even if that obtains, though, we can assume that not every human alive in the solar system joined the exodus -- the fact that there was a population problem on Earth implies a lot more people than any size fleet could carry -- and given a technology capable of interstellar flight in the first place, it's likely Sol system had some degree of off-Earth population as well. So it's certainly possible humans still survive in the home system.

As for going back there, well, Joss has specifically ruled out FTL travel in the Firefly 'Verse, and heck, it's his playground, so that's out. We don't know how close to the speed of light 'Verse style drives can get though; if someone could get very close to "C", the trip would seem short to him/her, though it would still take decades at either end. (Incidentally, that means the exodus fleet might have covered multiple light centuries while experiencing only a generation or two of shipboard time -- the 'Verse doesn't necessarily need to be close to Sol system, in other words. But I digress. . . again. . . )

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Friday, September 5, 2008 1:49 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by firefly151:
Citizen, of course we're just playing with the mysteries of the Whedon's verse here.
We don't know very much for certain, but it's just nice to ..hypothesise... what the truths might be. It's just theories, and that's what I expected and hoped for when I started this thread.

I never said otherwise, but I just think there needs to be more evidence or at least argument to support the hypothesis.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, September 5, 2008 2:24 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
Hmm. Citizen, if my previous post seemed snarky, I apologize. I didn't mean to raise hackles, nor to cherry-pick from Joss's statements.

No? I just think you need to make a better argument for it is what I meant.

Quote:
It's possible, for example, that the solar planets were never terraformed successfully. Even if that obtains, though, we can assume that not every human alive in the solar system joined the exodus -- the fact that there was a population problem on Earth implies a lot more people than any size fleet could carry -- and given a technology capable of interstellar flight in the first place, it's likely Sol system had some degree of off-Earth population as well. So it's certainly possible humans still survive in the home system.

There's likely a limit to the terraforming process. I imagine you can extend the habitable zone of any given star, but not indefinitely, and so some bodies are going to be simply to hot or too cold to work with. I'd suggest most of the worlds of the Solar System fall into this category, with maybe only Mars and Venus being acceptable. Maybe the original terraforming technology was only capable of dealing with worlds that were essentially Earth-like? After the core planets were dealt with they could then have improved it.

We don't know how big the fleet was, how many could live on ship, or how many fleets left Earth. Perhaps more than one extra-solar system has been colonised?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, September 5, 2008 6:04 AM

ROCKETJOCK

I think the limits on the terraformation process must be pretty broad, judging by the number of successfully t-formed planets/moons in the 'Verse. (In a deleted scene from "Our Mrs. Reynolds" Mal speaks of "More than seventy Earths spinning"; and River's teacher speaks of the "new solar system" (note singular) containing "dozens of planets and hundreds of moons".) That, and the relatively short time-frame are, I think, good arguments for T-formation being a mature technology. Of course, the learning process might have screwed up a good portion of Sol System before they learned the ropes. . .

I agree with you that they didn't pick the target system by accident; whether there were already habitable worlds or not, they probably knew that the system was insanely ripe with terraformable planets/moons.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Friday, September 5, 2008 7:00 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER

Quick question/observation:

What about the presence of indentured servants/conscripted military?

It is known that the slave trade is fairly well mentioned and shown in the BDS. Why not sent the owned help to get things started before the monied folks arrive? And what about homesteads? Sure would be nice to send settlements of folks first to make the land workable and productive so an income base could be established before arriving. Besides, why not have the lower class serve as test subjects for the atmosphere before establishing higher class settlements? These things happened quite often during the American push west. Large ranches swollowed up smaller homesteads in the name of profit (strangely the reverse is happening presently).

IMHO the 1% is no different than many governments and I can see them working together to establish worlds for profit.

Oh, and I like the idea of a war being the reason for the run from Earth That Was. It is not stated but in a way it does make sense. But then again so does an over crowded Earth.

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Being an artist means not having to avert one's eyes.
-Akira Kurosawa

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