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Originally posted by Kwicko:
By your own twisted logic, doesn't that mean that Palin/McCain is sinking fast? I mean, look at how berserk you and Riverlove are going about them! That must be a sign of their impending doom...

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I will point out that if McCain-Palin win the WH we're in for four years of shrinking civil liberties, religion in the WH, and hard times... very hard times... for most Americans.- Signy

If I thought for a second that it would be any better at all with Obama, I might be excited now.-6ix

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Imagine what the GOP could do with good candidates...I mean if it takes the most money they've ever had and the most appealing candidate they've ever had to bring the race just close...the Democrats really have no business in the White House.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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Oh good, Signym has foreseen the future...and returns to warn us all to vote Left-wing.

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Well, I just wanted to get it out there, so that you won't say You couldn't have known! Because I can and I do. And you can too, if you just keep your eyes and ears open and think a little bit.

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Thanks! I’ll make a note of that with all the other “repent or burn” demands I’ve gotten from people.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I just wanted you to remember what I said: if McCain is elected things will go downhill for the average person. Very downhill.

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...and then just take those fence jumpers back and dump em, the hell with detaining them, just keep kickin em back over till they get tired of it.

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Yes, so you said. Thanks for you input, though pointless it may be.

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Do you also read palms?

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When the preacherman tells me that this nation is doomed to burn in hell if I don’t accept his ideological story, do you expect me to believe that too?

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Or is it just your story that's that's the "real" truth?

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But it takes a lot more than snark to do that...

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Of course not. I'm not religious, and you shouldn't be either. All I'm saying is... open your eyes and ears. Pay attention even to stuff that doesn't digest too well.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Kirkules:
I'm sure Palin and McCain's speeches got the money rolling in to the Obama camp from China and the Axis of Evil.

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And this is why you're an idiot in these matters, Kirk, when Bush detractors say war for oil, you call it as wrong, but YOU'RE allowed to go all simple in the other direction.
You're angry & mean, just like the peeps you want in office, plus you drink too much and don't take enough vitamins.

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The thing is, I strongly feel their ideas will do great damage to our economy and the Constitutional rights I most value.

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I see. So I shouldn’t be religious? So if I “open [my] eyes and ears” and discover a reason for religion, then what? It’s puzzling to me, Signym, how it is that you are so unable to hear the zealotry in your own voice.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I will point out that if McCain-Palin win the WH we're in for four years of shrinking civil liberties, religion in the WH, and hard times... very hard times... for most Americans.

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Originally posted by Kirkules:
Sorry about that one Chris. Your suspicion that my post was alcohol related is right on the mark. Although I do believe the Internet could be misused by foreign governments to influence our election, I don't believe the Dems would knowingly accept foreign money(Clinton's excepted). I actually think both Obama and Bidden are good men and only want what they think is best for our country. The thing is, I strongly feel their ideas will do great damage to our economy and the Constitutional rights I most value.

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Unfortuately, if Obama/Biden win the White house, we're also in for four years of shrinking civil liberties and hard times - just different liberties and different hard times.

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Siggy - I DO have concerns about Obama and the Dems concerning my second amendment rights, as well as the non-enumerated right to be left the hell alone without Gov nitpickin every damn aspect of my life "for your own good".

That's the problem with the lesser of two evils...
It's still evil!

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Originally posted by Kirkules:

Sorry about that one Chris. Your suspicion that my post was alcohol related is right on the mark.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Kirk, considering the kinds of utterly stupid things Chris has said and which are typically said of Bush and Republicans on this board by people who agree with his side of the story, no fair-minded person could ever blame you for not retracting the comment you made – it’s actually the height of hypocrisy that Chris even considered calling you on it.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
How's them apples?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
How's them apples?

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Fine. Just don’t tell someone else not to serve you the same slice of pie.

And neither signy or you could have known there were no WMD, and technically still can't. An inability to find something is not evidence that it doesn't exist. If that were the case, my car keys would cease to exist every morning for about 30 minutes before work.

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Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Last I heard, the Atlantic Ocean was a bit wider than that.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
It's kind of liberating, once the truth is embraced. It's much harder to keep defending an untenable position than it is to admit your folly and move on to better bastions of belief.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
If that were the case, my car keys would cease to exist every morning for about 30 minutes before work.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
What is truth? Is Signy telling us all that she has clairvoyant powers to see the future, truth? Or is it just Signy arrogantly pumping her own ego? The truth is that people, who claim that WMDs certainly don’t and didn’t exist in Iraq, are operating on the same arrogance as those who claimed they certainly did. And for people who insisted that those who “knew” there were WMDs before the War are “lying,” it’s ironic that based on that same logic, all of those who now claim there are no WMDs must be “lying.”

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clairvoyant powers

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
That CIA intelligence now claims that WMDs may not have existed? The same CIA intelligence that claimed they did exist.



We couldn’t know then, anymore then we can know now, whether those weapons existed or didn’t exist

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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clairvoyant powers

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GOD, Finn!!!! Where did I say I had "clairvoyant powers?"" I'm a scientist and I try to be a realist. It's all about the data and the model that you use to intepret it. IF you take in data w/o filtering it too heavily AND you let the information talk to you w/o trying to shout it down, you'll be making accurate predictions too.

So open your eyes. Look around. Pay attention even tho... no, especially if something rubs your assumptions the wrong way.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Could Han PROVE that Greedo's weapon was loaded? He saw it, heard Greedo's direct intention to kill him, but by your thinking, he should have shot him at first sight if he believed himself to be in danger at all...or is it that he should have let Greedo pull the trigger to see if he was telling the truth regarding his deadly intent...(?)...wow Finn, I don't see how you even drive to work successfully without making correct value judgements concerning the absolutely unknowable factors that generally present themselves...

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Or yeah, he could have just shot him, like he did.

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I’m a scientist too. And as a scientist I understand the limits of data – which cannot foretell the future.

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And those that do, do so because they have already made up their minds independent of what the data may or may not say.

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Originally posted by rue:
Finn

So, your excuse is - what exactly ?

Maybe you need to ask yourself this: How did so many people reach the right conclusions while you failed so completely ? Because in the end a LOT of people were better at it than you. What made you different from them ? What did you do wrong ?

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Silence is consent.

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Originally posted by rue:
Maybe you need to ask yourself this: How did so many people reach the right conclusions while you failed so completely ? Because in the end a LOT of people were better at it than you. What made you different from them ? What did you do wrong ?

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I can't speak for most people, but I thought he had WMD. I was woefully mistaken, however.

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(U)In February 1999, the Intelligence Community reported in Iraq.• WMD and Delivery Capabilities After Operation Desert Fox, that Iraq probably retained the personnel, documentation, and much of the critical equipment necessary to continue and advance its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) and delivery programs. Iraq possessed biological agent20 stockpiles that could be, or already were, weaponized and ready for use, but the paper did not state definitively that Iraq had biological weapons. The size of those agent stockpiles was said to be uncertain and subject to debate, and the location, nature, and condition of the stockpiles was also unknown. Iraq's production of biological weapons was assessed to be largely dormant, but the IC observed that Iraq could begin BW agent production within days of a decision to do so.

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(U) For example, The National Intelligence Council (NIC) produced a NIC memorandum, Iraq: Outstanding WMD and Missile Issues in September 1998 and produced a follow-on memorandum of the same title in November 1998 which comprehensively addressed UNSCOM's assessments of Iraq's outstanding compliance issues. The papers noted that the Intelligence Community generally agrees with the assessments made by UNSCOM and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) about Iraq's remaining WMD efforts and capabilities. Regarding CW, the IC assessed that:

• Gaps and inconsistencies in Iraqi declarations to UNSCOM strongly suggest that Iraq retains stockpiles of chemical munitions and agents.

• Iraq also had the residual technical expertise, facilities, and production equipment to quickly restart production at declared sites if UNSCOM is again barred from conducting inspections and on-site monitoring.

(U) In February 1999, soon after UNSCOM inspectors departed Iraq, several intelligence agencies, including the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the National Imagery and Mapping Agency (NIMA),25 the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and the U.S. Central Command produced a joint intelligence report, Iraq.• WMD and Delivery Capabilities After Operation Desert Fox. This assessment focused on the effectiveness of air strikes during Operation Desert Fox in destroying Iraq's WMD facilities and programs, but was not a comprehensive assessment of Iraq's WMD capabilities. The report noted:

• During Operation Desert Fox, few of Iraq's chemical warfare facilities were targeted or damaged and the operation probably had very little impact on Iraq's ability to reconstitute its chemical warfare programs.

• We believe that Iraq possesses chemical agent stockpiles that can be, or already are, weaponized and ready for use. The size, location, nature and condition of those stockpiles is unknown.

• We assess Iraq's production of chemical weapons to be largely dormant: however, Baghdad has the infrastructure necessary to support offensive programs. Without an effective monitoring presence, Iraq could probably resume its CW program immediately, if it has not already done so.

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