Let's hear it for all the peeps that want to see America destroyed! by chrisisall

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Though I do totally understand where this is coming from, this isn't helping any of us at all Chris....

I just want the abject bullshit to stop, is all. I mean to separate the peeps who love their country from the asswipes that would gleefully see her fail just to support a political agenda. Make 'em see their folly, if possible, just plain goof on 'em if not. The country's in a shitter right now- notice how I'm not POUNDING on Bush at EVERY turn anymore? That's cause he's as good as gone, damage done, we need to repair now, not rant. Does Bush deserve jail time? Yes, IMO, but that won't help the dead or the wounded vets, or most anyone else, that's why I'm not pushin' for it. Lets see America as OUR BOAT, and keep her flyin'. Any opposed to that can join Crow for all I care now.

The soap box Chrisisall

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Monday, November 24, 2008 5:42 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
But I do hate excessive taxes and bloated, intrusive Government.

Unless they land on people you don't like.

Seriously, would you like some Cheese to go with that Whine ?

Dude, you had your chance - and squandered it acting like a petulant child.

Now you're just a chewtoy, bitch.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

To be fair on this point Frem, though I do agree that it is a very valid assessment here, people on both sides of the spectrum are very guilty of this behavior everyday, and I know full well you are just as aware of it as I am.

In fact, if I were to do a poll today I would guess that 50% or more of Democrats were adamantly against smoking and would gladly vote for bans and higher taxes, while Republicans would do the opposite. I think that conversely, the Rethugs would visciously back my choice 50%. Most sane folk would lie somewhere in the middle and no matter where their "moral" compass lie on the issue would rather live in a "be and let be" world. There is no reason that we all can't compromise and be happy with the end result of this issue, just as there is no reason that any other issue can't be solved in similar fashion.

As long as you and I are sitting on the fence watching them gouge each others eyes out, there's no hope for any of us except for our own preparations for the future.

I have a feeling we'll both be friends for life Frem, even if we never actually meet in person.

If nothing else can be said about the current state of affairs for all of us, it's pretty damn exciting, ain't it? It's like one huge damn season of "The Real World"

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, November 24, 2008 5:42 AM

Jack, they got it comin - they had every single possible chance to climb on board the ship of reason, and they didn't.

Folks like you, who are wisely suspicious and formulate their views and actions based on reason, logic and experience, I welcome and value.

But the partisan shill-shrills who are pissing in the pond and making folks like you and me less effective by creating the impression that the folks opposing or potentially opposing Obama's policies are a bunch of irrational, hateful, screaming, bigoted, ignorant little children just spouting nasty hard right propaganda without a single thought to it's validity...

You bet I am angry with em, they are more than likely to help *cause* many of the potential calamities simply by drowning out any reasonable voices coming from the Conservative end of the spectrum, all too busy pouring water IN to the boat instead of bailing it out, and I've not a whit of respect for that.

By choice it would be a kick to the back of the knee and two slugs to the back of the skull, with ultimate dispassion, just cause they're in the way of any real and significant check against inevitable excesses - and I ain't the most merciful of folk when I feel someone has deliberately and maliciously endangered my rights or person, or attempted to, and they no doubt have.

But no, I still don't hate em, in order to hate em, I'd have to give a fuck ABOUT em, and frankly, I mostly don't.

It's long past time they sat down, shut up, and let more mature folk handle things if they wanna act like bratty little kids instead of adults.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, November 24, 2008 5:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Now you're just a chewtoy, bitch.

AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
TOOGORRAM FUNNYISALL

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Monday, November 24, 2008 5:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Oh gee, and it has nothing to do with the fact that I regularly blow your pathetic little rightwingnut flim-flam faery tales to bits and then verbally sodomise you with your own ridiculous and pedantic arguments now, does it ?

You certainly suffer from an abnormally huge ego, but you’ve never won an argument with me. In fact the few times that I’ve actually argued with you, it was quit easy to expose your fanatical rhetoric and specious reasoning.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, November 24, 2008 5:53 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

As in most things, the truth and rational belief lies somewhere in the middle..

Its not the Right-wing nuts, nor is it the limp-wristed Libs that get it right.

Its folks who give a damn about our country and our freedom, not the petty little issues-of-the-day.

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Monday, November 24, 2008 5:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You certainly suffer from an abnormally huge ego,

You would seem to know much about that, you being never, ever wrong about ANYTHING, eh?

Unanswerable questions from mortals just ignored....

I guess I've just reached a saturation point with your omnipotence, Finn. You such a smart, intelligent guy, and here you go letting that strength BECOME your weakness.

Time to recharge IMHO.

The line-in-the-sand Chrisisall

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Monday, November 24, 2008 5:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
See. my main, and I mean MAIN problem with ya Finn, is that you had NO OUTRAGE over your boy Shrub officially sanctioning torture. Right there he chose to join ranks with the likes of Hitler, and YOU saw no problem with that, well, none that you voiced strongly, at any rate. See, if my own FATHER voiced an okay for Bushie's torture agenda, I'd count him in with the armies of darkness. That's the point where you lost most of your credibility with thinking peeps here, IMO.

None of this true. As usual you chose to seek ways to close your mind, such as comparisons with Hitler and emotional rhetoric like torture, instead of understanding the issue. That’s my main problem with you. And now that your guy is in office, all the rules will change. They already have. You’re already accusing people who don’t agree with Obama of being “un-American,” aren’t you? The exact some kind of characterization all you Bush haters used to decry. Suddenly the dissenters are un-American. Interesting how the tables have changed.

And I don’t think that it has ever been the opinions that I hold that bothers you, I think it is simple that I don’t participate in the hate rhetoric against Bush. You’re so blinded by this hate Bush crap that you can’t even seen when someone agrees with you if they don’t throw in a derogatory comment towards Bush. Fanaticism has never been my thing. At least when it comes to politics. So the real problem that you have with me is that I don’t participate in your fanaticism.

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Monday, November 24, 2008 5:56 AM

Quote:
As long as you and I are sitting on the fence watching them gouge each others eyes out

Fuck it, imma help with the gouging!

Like I said to Wulfie - bar brawl rules.

I got one down on the floor and the other's too busy to do nothin so hell yes imma put the boot in and finish the job if possible.

Think on it this way, Mano - if the Republicans are crushed into paste and unable to compete, it opens the door quite a bit for the rise and entry of valid third parties even if we do NOT gut the Democrats immediately, and their support and usefulness at THAT POINT in toppling the two party empire will be much welcomed and quite invaluable.

And they WILL rise, once the Repubs glug down into the darkness with their Titanic of a party, do you really think folk are gonna sit back and accept a unilateral one-party system which, lacking opposition will get greedy and start taking measures that piss off everyone cause there's no effective opposition anymore ?

Folks are dumb, but they ain't THAT dumb, hell no - all the folks who are, well, they're goin down with the ship and good riddance to em!

So we crush the one we got in our fist good and solid right now, and FINISH THE JOB - then when they're outta the way get behind some of these third party folk and start shovin, added bonus is with most of the Republicans crushed, it does clear the deck for Ron Paul as an ACTUAL Conservative to have a voice provided we shut these shill-shrills up who are drowning out any voice of reason, even his.

The image of Ron Paul striding into office on a walkway made from the crushed bones of the Republican party quite amuses me, thank ya verra much.

I been workin THIS angle since the moment I knew the Republican Party's little boat was gonna go down with all hands like a two dollar whore, cause we can USE this to break the two party Republicrat status quo machine for good, if we're smart about it.

Knock one off the seesaw, and then drop an anvil on it - bang.
Call it a two-fer-one sale.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, November 24, 2008 5:56 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Jack, they got it comin - they had every single possible chance to climb on board the ship of reason, and they didn't.

Ah...... My dream ticket of Dr. Paul and Mr. Kucinich..... no matter which one of them ran as President/VP

Quote:
Folks like you, who are wisely suspicious and formulate their views and actions based on reason, logic and experience, I welcome and value.

I feel just the same my man, and truthfully, I'm just waiting for the day that you become the Obrien to my Winston. I know you'd respect me less if I didn't consider that a possibility. I know I would of you....

Quote:
But the partisan shill-shrills who are pissing in the pond and making folks like you and me less effective by creating the impression that the folks opposing or potentially opposing Obama's policies are a bunch of irrational, hateful, screaming, bigoted, ignorant little children just spouting nasty hard right propaganda without a single thought to it's validity...

I know man.... I know. Isn't it crazy that as real as we know this all to be, we're probably viewed in the eyes of a majority of the proles who have read what we have to say as moderately in PN's world of psychotic manipulation of all of us (which I do honestly still give an open mind to, even if everything in me wants desparately not to believe it's really that bad)

I don't hate on Chris or anyone else here. Just pointing out for all of us that divided we fall ain't just a cute saying that we heard when we were kids.

Quote:
You bet I am angry with em, they are more than likely to help *cause* many of the potential calamities simply by drowning out any reasonable voices coming from the Conservative end of the spectrum, all too busy pouring water IN to the boat instead of bailing it out, and I've not a whit of respect for that.

Exactly.... I've had more than one thread about how I agree with about 50% of the Demons viewpoints and about 50% of the Rethugs viewpoints and that I'm much more likely to agree with a majority of any single person's viewpoint on a one-on-one basis than any of the two partys as a whole.

Quote:
By choice it would be a kick to the back of the knee and two slugs to the back of the skull, with ultimate dispassion, just cause they're in the way of any real and significant check against inevitable excesses - and I ain't the most merciful of folk when I feel someone has deliberately and maliciously endangered my rights or person, or attempted to, and they no doubt have.

But no, I still don't hate em, in order to hate em, I'd have to give a fuck ABOUT em, and frankly, I mostly don't.

It's long past time they sat down, shut up, and let more mature folk handle things if they wanna act like bratty little kids instead of adults.

On a lesser scale, I do believe that we should all be tested at least to the standards of my Junior American Government test (required to graduate), before we are allowed to vote. Hell... without some refreshing, I admit that I might not even pass with a better of a C or D grade.

I know you know why neither side has EVER even considered proposing this idea. Neither side yet is sure which of their supporters are dumber and that scares the shit out of them.

I say, no more American Government exams required to pass 8th grade in America. If you want to vote, you have to know what Government is about. Otherwise, you can stay home on election night and text in your vote for the next American Idol instead.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, November 24, 2008 6:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
None of this true.

Of course, my liege.

Quote:
As usual you chose to seek ways to close your mind, such as comparisons with Hitler and emotional rhetoric like torture, instead of understanding the issue.

No, oh avoiding one, the issue I BRING UP is at hand, you choose to deflect.
(again...)
Why no outrage at officially sanctioning torture as a U.S. method of dealing with...anyone?? See, it's a question, another one for you to dance around & not directly address. Sorry, when I'm asked a question (by any other than AU, that is

), I answer it if I can, I'm guilty of desiring to see the same out of others, I fear.

Quote:
That’s my main problem with you. And now that your guy is in office, all the rules will change.

How?
I accuse peeps who behave in an un-American way of being un-American, I can't help it if your dear & fluffy NeoCons fit the bill. I can't help it if Obama SEEMS to be doing the right things (Though, he's not in office, so it's hard to judge right now).

Finn, you are SO BENT on hating those that call bs on follies of the established order , SO BENT on clinging to your falsely perceived objectivity, SO BENT on pointing your God damned finger in every direction but your own.....

THAT'S intellectual dishonesty, at it's finest.

The tireless Chrisisall

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Monday, November 24, 2008 7:02 AM

So I guess when Cit told him a while ago to "Get Bent" he took it literally, eh ?

They're makin this too damn easy, it's losing it's amusement value when I don't have to put any thought into it.

-F

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Monday, November 24, 2008 7:38 AM

America loves a winner!

Chrissy,
Hey, no deal for me. It's your cowardly own self you have to live with. Everyone here sees how you tossed in the white towel.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, November 24, 2008 8:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
So I guess when Cit told him a while ago to "Get Bent" he took it literally, eh ?

LOL.

Quote:

They're makin this too damn easy, it's losing it's amusement value when I don't have to put any thought into it.

Yeah. I'm just a little sad to see peeps like Finn lose...like I feel bad for Bush & his 'worst President' legacy. There's a part of me stuck in the 'Return Of The Jedi' phase of my life, where I so wish the good part of us would come out, no matter what heinous crap we did before...forgiveness is such a beautiful part of Christianity, even though I don't subscribe to the entire deal.

Okay, my fever is totally kicking in here, imma sign off before I get totally fluffy with this.

Peace. Out.

The eyes only Chrisisall

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Monday, November 24, 2008 9:18 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
And I don’t think that it has ever been the opinions that I hold that bothers you, I think it is simple that I don’t participate in the hate rhetoric against Bush.

You "don't participate in the hate rhetoric" against Bush because you've got your head so far up his ass that you can taste what he had for breakfast this morning. You've been an enduring apologist for Bush and every single one of his policies. If you've ever had the slightest disagreement with anything he's done, you've failed to make mention of it, instead endlessly calling anyone to disagrees in the least with him or his cronies "un-American", "terrorist", "terrorist-lovers" and the like.

You're a twit, Finn, and a fucking twat to boot.

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Monday, November 24, 2008 9:43 AM

*sets up a rotten fruit and vegetable stand in the thread for the convenience of the locals*

Oh how I love the free market.

-F

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Monday, November 24, 2008 10:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor: First of all, don't HATE Obama.

I'm gonna back off a bit because I just wanted to see your reaction. And you did protest too much indeed.

You're just likely not in touch with yourself enough to know that you fear blacks.

You may feel like Blacks owe you because you have agreed to NOT call them nigg!rs.

It is difficult to separate political dissapproval hatred from natural racial hatred that takes years of instinct and fear to cultivate.

Now it's thier year...Racial and political hatred and bigotry together at last! Like peanut butter and chocolate. Bigots get to slip in a little extra and nobody will notice

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor: I hate abortions because it kills humans. ( At least 1/2 of those are women, and you speak of women's rights? - Odd that you'd murder so many , for this concept of 'freedom )

Fetus's in the first trimester are not humans. They are a collection of cells no more complex than my liver. Anti abortion people try to employ phoney outrage drama by using arbitrary terms like freedom, kills, murder, women's rights. That's the same kind of melodrama that renders logic useless. Anyway....I shouldn't have brought it up, doesn't matter....Roe V Wade!

I'm gonna give the gay thing a rest, I know where you stand.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:I hate poor people because I hate taxes ? I don't think you thought that one out too much. But I do hate excessive taxes and bloated, intrusive Government. True.

The part some folks of your political persuasion hate is people of Public Assistance getting thier money. In fact I've never met a Repuliconservatarian that approves of one of thier thin dimes going to welfare.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Freeing mankind from oppressive Governments is a noble cause. You'd prefer millions stay enslaved to a dictator, I happen to see things differently. Not being a Christian, I find your remarks funny.
I'd wish other countries would give their people as much freedom as we all have, here. I gots no reason to control them.

Oppressive dictatorships exist in greater numbers within countries that the USA either supports or has military bases in, than without.

I lived in China, Turkey, and Syria. I had more personal freedom in all three of those countries.

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Monday, November 24, 2008 10:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
*sets up a rotten fruit and vegetable stand in the thread for the convenience of the locals*

*Throws a gooey tomato at his own self just to do the unexpected*

The dripping Chrisisall

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Monday, November 24, 2008 11:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:

I lived in China,

Totally off topic: did you visit the Shaolin Temple?

The obsessed Chrisisall

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Monday, November 24, 2008 12:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
You "don't participate in the hate rhetoric" against Bush because you've got your head so far up his ass that you can taste what he had for breakfast this morning. You've been an enduring apologist for Bush and every single one of his policies. If you've ever had the slightest disagreement with anything he's done, you've failed to make mention of it, instead endlessly calling anyone to disagrees in the least with him or his cronies "un-American", "terrorist", "terrorist-lovers" and the like.

I have disagreed and criticized this administration. What I have not done is participate in your ideological bigotry, and I have no interest in that kind of shallow hate. I also have never accused anyone of being "un-American", "terrorist", "terrorist-lovers" or the like for disagreeing with the administration, so that is outright lie on your part.

This is the problem with hate. It rots your brain. Eventually you become so committed to the hate that you can’t even identify people who agree with you, unless they are spewing the same hate you are.

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Monday, November 24, 2008 12:04 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Mal rambled :

I'm gonna back off a bit because I just wanted to see your reaction. And you did protest too much indeed.

Either I protest too much, or not enough w/ you. Truly, this is now in the funny stage.

Quote:

You're just likely not in touch with yourself enough to know that you fear blacks.

Translation: I'm not bright enough to know I " should " fear blacks ? Wow, there's a new twist from the tolerant far, far and away.

Quote:

You may feel like Blacks owe you because you have agreed to NOT call them nigg!rs.

Or, I may NOT feel like they owe me. Hard to figure out, huh?

Quote:

It is difficult to separate political dissapproval hatred from natural racial hatred that takes years of instinct and fear to cultivate.

Here, I think you're speaking from personal experience , more than ever.

Quote:

Now it's thier year...Racial and political hatred and bigotry together at last! Like peanut butter and chocolate. Bigots get to slip in a little extra and nobody will notice

Not even sure what that's suppose to mean. Whose year is it again ? The bigots ? The racist ? See, i'm not even falling for your bait this time. You're trolling for a reaction of some sort, the likes of which I don't even think you know anymore. And while two CAN play at this game, I'm bored beyond watching paint dry with trying to decipher your cement-head rhetoric and nonsense.

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Monday, November 24, 2008 12:44 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think it is wrong to label someone as a bigot or racist because they have beliefs that differ from your own. You may not understand why certain people believe certain things, but to take that lack of understanding and fill it with emotional rhetoric like the word 'racist' is wrong.

These people who make you furrow your brow, who make you growl in frustration, who make you shake your head in disbelief... Only they know why they believe what they believe. Calling them names is just using a big emotional lever to win an argument. And if I may say so, it's a lever you don't need.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, November 24, 2008 12:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Totally off topic: did you visit the Shaolin Temple

Absototaly...One of the towns I spent months in was Chongquing. That is the home of the Panda's, the main Chinese Acupuncture University, the best spicy eggplant ever in history, and! kind of a jumping off point for heading east along the Yhangtze (Yellow) River, which during pre damn times (1986) was like a parade of misc Buddhist structures. I was kind of a 21 Year old white punk on dope at the time, so my focus was Tsing Tao(beer), Mao Tai(moonshine), and not falling overboard.

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Monday, November 24, 2008 12:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Fetus's in the first trimester are not humans. They are a collection of cells no more complex than my liver. Anti abortion people try to employ phoney outrage drama by using arbitrary terms like freedom, kills, murder, women's rights. That's the same kind of melodrama that renders logic useless. Anyway....I shouldn't have brought it up, doesn't matter....Roe V Wade!

You mean the same way you use accusations of racism to foster melodrama and silence dissent? Well, not exactly the same, after all a human fetus is by definition human. So it’s a far more sound argument to opine that abortion is a form of murder then it is for you accuse Auraptor of racism.

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
The part some folks of your political persuasion hate is people of Public Assistance getting thier money. In fact I've never met a Repuliconservatarian that approves of one of thier thin dimes going to welfare.

Then you’ve led a very sheltered life, because both Republics and Conservative approve of Welfare in general. What they don’t like is the state funding laziness, which is unfortunately the direction welfare moves if left unchecked.

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
]Oppressive dictatorships exist in greater numbers within countries that the USA either supports or has military bases in, than without.

Yes. Just like police are often stationed in parts of a neighborhood with the most crime. That doesn’t mean the police support crime.

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
I lived in China, Turkey, and Syria. I had more personal freedom in all three of those countries.

Then the US? Unlikely. Americans have more personal freedom then exists in much of Western Europe.

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Monday, November 24, 2008 1:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor: Translation: I'm not bright enough to know I " should " fear blacks ? Wow, there's a new twist from the tolerant far, far and away.

Your translation included the word "should" and that makes it incorrect, which should make the inside of your brain feel puzzlingly uncomfortable. That is what incorrect feels like!...Now! take out the word "should", that makes it correct. Which will make the inside of your psyche say ahhhhhh.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor: I think you're speaking from personal experience , more than ever.

I know you are but what am I?.....Nope......Infinity squared and cubed!

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Originally posted by AURaptor: Not even sure what that's suppose to mean. Whose year is it again ?

Bigots and Racists

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Originally posted by AURaptor:The bigots ?

Yes

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor: The racist ?

Yes

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Originally posted by AURaptor: your cement-head rhetoric and nonsense.

That sounds bad. Anyway...if someone thinks what I'm saying is outlandish, unfounded, poppycock, or balderdash, they usually find "unwinding" my crap not worth the effort.

If someone said to me "You're just a Liberal Hater and I'm gonna kick your ass" I'd say "Get in line"

Trying hard to dispute me is rank with denial

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Monday, November 24, 2008 1:39 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Fetus's in the first trimester are not humans. They are a collection of cells no more complex than my liver. Anti abortion people try to employ phoney outrage drama by using arbitrary terms like freedom, kills, murder, women's rights. That's the same kind of melodrama that renders logic useless. Anyway....I shouldn't have brought it up, doesn't matter....Roe V Wade!

I somehow missed this part of your post. I only wanted to point out that you're wrong. 12 weeks is ample time for grow limbs, fingers toes, ears.....Far more complex than a single organ ( which is itself fairly complex ) . I'll not post any pics as I won't play the part of the dyed in the wool pro-lifer, -I don't believe I fit the definition. As I've posted here before, I DO believe a woman has the right, as a free and independent being, to control her body...... to a point. You see, because of the symbiotic relationship a woman has w/ her unborn fetus, it's unreasonable to assume that her rights exceed and over ride those of the unborn from conception all the way to birth. I would think that it 's reasonable the woman holds dominion over her own body for at least the first month or two. By the 1st trimester mark, though, i'd say rights for the unborn , if not fully established, are certainly in a hazy area. Yes, it's a woman's body and her right to do as she pleases, ...... but not entirely. And as for R v W, everyone agrees, it's a bad ruling, and should be overturned.

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Monday, November 24, 2008 1:44 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Trying hard to dispute me is rank with denial

Naww.... the only thing rank at all IS you.

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Monday, November 24, 2008 2:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Fetus's in the first trimester are not humans. They are a collection of cells no more complex than my liver. Anti abortion people try to employ phoney outrage drama by using arbitrary terms like freedom, kills, murder, women's rights. That's the same kind of melodrama that renders logic useless. Anyway....I shouldn't have brought it up, doesn't matter....Roe V Wade!

I somehow missed this part of your post. I only wanted to point out that you're wrong. 12 weeks is ample time for grow limbs, fingers toes, ears.....Far more complex than a single organ ( which is itself fairly complex ) . I'll not post any pics as I won't play the part of the dyed in the wool pro-lifer, -I don't believe I fit the definition. As I've posted here before, I DO believe a woman has the right, as a free and independent being, to control her body...... to a point. You see, because of the symbiotic relationship a woman has w/ her unborn fetus, it's unreasonable to assume that her rights exceed and over ride those of the unborn from conception all the way to birth. I would think that it 's reasonable the woman holds dominion over her own body for at least the first month or two. By the 1st trimester mark, though, i'd say rights for the unborn , if not fully established, are certainly in a hazy area. Yes, it's a woman's body and her right to do as she pleases, ...... but not entirely. And as for R v W, everyone agrees, it's a bad ruling, and should be overturned.

Those are some of the best points the pro life side has to offer. Also, I've heard lots of pro life folks that think Roe V Wade is a bad ruling. However, most Liberals I know think it was the greatest victory over religious intolerance ever. Right up there with what abolition was for civil rights.

Anyway....Let me ask you this AURaptor...If a woman were 8 months preganant. She gets in an accident. The operation to save the baby will kill the Mother. The procedure to save the Mother will kill the baby. There are no relatives. You are the Doctor and you must decide, the Mother is in a coma.

What ya gonna do Dr Rapp? and why?

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Monday, November 24, 2008 2:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Naww.... the only thing rank at all IS you.

I shoulda' saw that comin'

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Monday, November 24, 2008 3:06 PM

Quote:
And as for R v W, everyone agrees, it's a bad ruling, and should be overturned.

Everyone, huh ?

Yet another flim-flam faery tale, or if you prefer, outright lie - now you're just embarrassing yourself.

Of course, see, I know the dirty little secret inside your rotten little head - you don't consider anyone not in fawning, psycophantic agreement with you "people", and thus they do not count, right ?

Not to mention based on the plethora of evidence, you're a stone hypocrite just like the rest of your ilk who'd only believe that shite cause it's the party line, and doesn't in any way personally inconvenience YOU, it costs YOU nothing.

And yet you and yours sit there and have the nerve to fucking whine about folks on public assistance popping out kids all the while you strive to deny them any means to prevent it by shredding any useful sex ed or effective, accurate knowledge of birth control - THEN have the nerve to whinge about the end result of your own factions deliberately inspired ignorance resulting in abortions, and seek to destroy THAT avenue of resolution too!

For all that your petty, quickly sinking little faction has done to funnel women INTO that option, and the wish to deny even that to em, you got no right to bitch about the obvious results of your own fucking stupidity.

Tell me, is it a surprise to you that when you touch a hot stove, you get burnt ?

You wanna prevent the goddamn "problem" of abortion then you do the smart thing and insist on proper education regarding sex, birth control options and you make them available instead of treating it like some deep dark secret that just BEGS young folk to go seeking that knowledge in the only way possible since it's not even *legal* for them to possess any books that might explain it - I should know, given I had to freakin STEAL them, and that inspired by two unplanned pregnancies and one rather nasty case of VD amongst my classmates due to the entirety of our "human development" being a 15 minute lecture basically stating "this is sex, it's bad, don't do it..." yeah, that's a GREAT way to get teens not to knock boots... in bizarro world, that is!

And here you sit, whining and whinging about a problem you and yours caused by sheer ignorance, negligence and lack of understanding of some very basic principles of cause and effect - and then demanding we make the situation WORSE by outlawing the one option your stupidity has left them, which will NOT stop it, simply drive it underground and make pregnancy almost criminal along with adding more fear and suspicion to a society already drowning in it, and result in that many more parents who start from the horrible perspective of viewing their own babies as a despicable parasite forced upon them by the state - yeah, that's a real nice road to go down, isn't it now, ya damn fool ?

And then you have the flaming GALL to top it with an outright lie you don't even have the simple damn decency to feel ashamed of because while you pretend to consider a collection of cells "human" (and I DO say pretend, cause I do not believe for an instant it's anything but a political attack front for you, given your lack of respect for human life from every other front we've addressed it.) you sure as hell don't consider anyone not in agreement with you to be.

If one has an issue with abortion the most logical and humane method of addressing it is to strive through education and access to the knowledge to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first damn place, striking the root instead of clipping at the branches, but like the rest of your ilk you are just parroting the party line of an issue you barely understand and don't really give a shit about beyond it's use as a political attack platform.

And when backed into a corner because you have NOT actually thought it through yourself cause you don't seem capable of such without some hard right mouthpiece to tell you what you should be thinking - you resort to the usual tactic of such cretins and lie, while jamming your fingers in your ears and pretending not to hear your dimwitted, halfass arguments come crashing down around you cause they've no real foundation to begin with.

Especially considering y'all are now sitting there actively denying crap we watched you say, right here, not so very long ago, and anyone who knows how to correctly use a boolean keyword search could prolly necro the threads to beat you over the head with, although given your continuing abysmal stupidity, you provide me with more than enough to effectively eviscerate you every time you open your mouth.

"Everyone"... yeah, right, tell that to someone who might believe ya, if you can even find anyone that stupid outside of your own quickly sinking political faction, that is.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, November 24, 2008 3:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

This is the problem with hate. It rots your brain. Eventually you become so committed to the hate

Simplistic jingoism.
I hate for people to have their lives snuffed out arbitrarily. No TV soundbite criticism of my anger w/Bush will make me suddenly go "Oh well, the peeps that died in Iraq that probably wouldn't have if we hadn't invaded just got unlucky- Bush didn't get them killed by initiating the use of deadly force based on lies & misconceptions...and the idea of torture isn't so bad, and the Patriot Act is a much better document than that other goddamn piece of paper, etc. etc."
He did some heinous shit, and calling my response to that 'blind hatred' is as juvenile as it gets.

Oh Finn, you have a mosquito on you arm- but don't swat it- that reaction would be a result of blind hatred of the insect world...

You're so full of unidentified nonsense

The rotting, hate-twisted brain of Chrisisall

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Monday, November 24, 2008 3:11 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

This moral exercise is interesting.

I think I would save the one with the greatest chance of survival. If chances for survival were equal, I think I would save the mother.

My logic in this moral quandry is probably inadequate and flawed. A woman of child-bearing age generally has a lot of life left to live, and a social network that either physically or emotionally depends on her. The unborn child has a much smaller and more limited network. In the case of the woman dying, a lot of people would tend to be impacted on at least a minimal level. (Assuming she has friends and potentially a mate in lieu of a family.) The baby would meanwhile lose 100% of its own network, and be introduced into the world with absolutely nothing.

Alternatively, if the baby dies, the woman would probably lose a percentage of her emotional network, represented by her connection to the child. But the remainder of that network, still intact, could help her to recover and hopefully live a full and happy life. Perhaps she can even have another baby one day.

I ALMOST selected the Baby to live, based on the fact that a woman who was 8 months pregnant probably wanted the baby to survive (since she allowed the window of termination to pass.)

All angles on this presume much and present flaws, which makes it an excellent moral exercise.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, November 24, 2008 3:26 PM

America loves a winner!

Frem,

I don't give a gorram rats ass how many paragraphs and volumes of hyperbolic , pre-prepared and utterly nonsensical dogmatic text you post here, the fact remains, R v W is poor law. Why ?

Critiques
William Saletan has written that "Blackmun’s [Supreme Court] papers vindicate every indictment of Roe: invention, overreach, arbitrariness, textual indifference." In a 1973 article in the Yale Law Journal, Professor John Hart Ely criticized Roe as a decision which "is not constitutional law and gives almost no sense of an obligation to try to be." Ely added: "What is frightening about Roe is that this super-protected right is not inferable from the language of the Constitution, the framers’ thinking respecting the specific problem in issue, any general value derivable from the provisions they included, or the nation’s governmental structure."
Similarly, Harvard law professor Laurence Tribe has noted that, "One of the most curious things about Roe is that, behind its own verbal smokescreen, the substantive judgment on which it rests is nowhere to be found." Watergate prosecutor Archibald Cox wrote: "[Roe’s] failure to confront the issue in principled terms leaves the opinion to read like a set of hospital rules and regulations.... Neither historian, nor layman, nor lawyer will be persuaded that all the prescriptions of Justice Blackmun are part of the Constitution."
Ruth Bader Ginsburg has criticized the Court's ruling in Roe v. Wade for terminating a nascent democratic movement to liberalize abortion law. Likewise, legal affairs editor Jeffrey Rosen and Michael Kinsley say that a democratic movement would have been the correct way to build a more durable consensus in support of abortion rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade#Critiques

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Monday, November 24, 2008 3:31 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think he took offense at the 'Everyone agrees' statement which presumed much.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, November 24, 2008 3:41 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I think he took offense at the 'Everyone agrees' statement which presumed much.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

I don't care what he took offense to, the fact of the matter is , whether you were for or against abortion is irrelevant. R v W IS and remains bad law, not for what it made legal, but in HOW it arrived at making it legal.

It presumed nothing. Only those ignorant to the issue would think my remarks presumptuous.

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Monday, November 24, 2008 3:49 PM

Anthony, regarding that moral exercise, which is indeed interesting, I cannot effectively answer to it without doing something I almost never do, which is share a tenet of my personal beliefs, and one that some folk might find a bit upsetting.

But imma do so because otherwise my position on stuff like this, right to life, death with dignity, etc - will not make any sense.

Not so comfy with sharing this, mind you, but I feel it's absolutely necessary if I am to continue arguing points of this nature.

You see, I am absolutely forbidden to take "Life Saving Action" to preserve a life that would otherwise end at that time, unless the life in question is one that I *must* morally place above my own.

Caused a bit of trouble in basic, but it broke down to something like this...

Bandaging non-fatal wounds, sure.
Bandaging obviously mortal wounds, no.
CPR, as a rule, no.

Of course, that applies to another troop lugging a rifle, who even if patched isn't going to be much help in a situation, in a case of say, the only guy who knows how to use the radio and get us extracted, I *have* to save him because the remainder of the unit will be endangered by his loss and they're not at the time dying.

It also means I can NOT intervene beyond a single reasonable attempt at persuasion in a suicide attempt, something that has previously brought me serious heartache in the past for fairly obvious reasons.

There's some slack to it, concerning what "Life Saving Action" might or might not entail, but not a lot - say, pushing someone out of the path of a car could be justified since they might not die if struck, for example, but in the example presented here I would be utterly helpless to intervene, probably resulting in the loss of both lives.

Not willing to explain it beyond that, and yes it would be pretty damned emotionally crushing, but I really would be unable to intervene.

This is why I hold some of the odd perspectives I do on matters like the one at hand.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, November 24, 2008 3:49 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

The issue is really whether or not 'Everyone Agrees.' Everyone does not agree, in fact. You may have a low opinion of those who disagree, and in fact that is supported by your statements. However, you presumed total agreement where none exists.

Perhaps you meant, 'The majority of learned scholars are of the consensus that Roe v. Wade is bad law, not for its outcome, but for its methodology of reasoning.'

In which case you'd have presumed little.

The point which may have escaped you is that when you say something like 'Everyone Agrees' when in fact Everyone does not Agree, you are excluding some of the people from 'Everyone,' which is an all-inclusive word. This can give the false impression that you do not regard those who disagree with you as people.

I'm sure it's not what you meant, but it is quite precisely what you said.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, November 24, 2008 3:51 PM

Rappy, it's dead bang simple.

I Do Not Agree.

So either "everybody agrees" is a lie, or you do not consider me a person.

Which is it ?

-F

PS. I see we crossposted there Anthony, lil bit of Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness goin on there, eh ?

I like to keep it simple.

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Monday, November 24, 2008 3:52 PM

When I first went through this one. I vicariously imagined the potential lives of Mom and baby and found no reason to choose. If she were Christian, which we did not know, God could decide by killing one first. So lacking anything reasonable or decisive, I decided to flip a coin. Which was categorized by a logic teacher I had in the same collumn as "I don't know"

If you are pro life...only God can decide.

If you are pro choice...only the Mother can decide.

And...it's ok to say I don't know.

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Monday, November 24, 2008 3:54 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Frem,

I really wish you'd go into your belief system a little deeper, because it sounds fascinating.

Which in itself may be a rather cold appraisal of something that is 'supposed' to seem alarming, but which simply intrigues me.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, November 24, 2008 3:58 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Rappy, it's dead bang simple.

I Do Not Agree.

So either "everybody agrees" is a lie, or you do not consider me a person.

Which is it ?

-F

PS. I see we crossposted there Anthony, lil bit of Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness goin on there, eh ?

I like to keep it simple.

Hello,

Ha! You have Hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia and I have Asperger's Syndrome. ;-)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, November 24, 2008 4:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
He did some heinous shit, and calling my response to that 'blind hatred' is as juvenile as it gets.

Enjoy your hate. Let go of the dark side Darthisall.

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Monday, November 24, 2008 4:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Let go of the dark side Darthisall.

It is too late for me...my son.

The SW geek Chrisisall

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Monday, November 24, 2008 4:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Let go of the dark side Darthisall.

It is too late for me...my son.

I sense the good within you.

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Monday, November 24, 2008 4:37 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

My favorite Star Wars quotes are those I heard from fellow audience members.

"Meesa tired of this as*hole." -friend, regarding Jar Jar

"He looks like a Mexican Jumping Bean." -Wife, regarding Yoda during his sabre duel with Duku (sp?)

"What? She just had two kids and she's dying from having 'no will to live?' What a horrible mother!" --Wife, after hearing the medical droid's assessment of Amidala

"What the f*ck? He was doing okay, and then... He just f*cking gave up!" -friend, after seeing Yoda's performance against the Sith Lord.

"Where the f*ck was that 'sense' sh*t when he sat next to you at the funeral, dumbass?" -same friend, after Yoda says something along the lines of, "I sense the Dark Side in You" to the Sith Lord.

"That is some serious d*mb sh*t!" -same friend again, when Yoda told Anakin that he must learn to let go of everything he cares about.

And finally, "Best I can tell, the Jedi were single-handedly responsible for Anakin's fall to the Dark Side."

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, November 24, 2008 6:04 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Frem may very well be a Christian Scientist.

Or a cold-hearted sonuvabitch.

Come on Frem...no CPR even?

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Monday, November 24, 2008 8:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
I lived in China, Turkey, and Syria. I had more personal freedom in all three of those countries.

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal: Then the US? Unlikely. Americans have more personal freedom then exists in much of Western Europe.

Yes..."than the US"

Where in China, Turkey, and Syria did you live?

I mean...if you did live those places, you wouldn't be dissagreeing with me. If you didn't live there, your guess about the state of human rights and personal freedoms in those countries would be just that, guesses offered as quasi fact to win an argument. Or something 1st...2nd...or 24th hand, that somebody told you. Or worse yet, something from the sensationalist exceptionalism ridden American Media.

Americans only buy media that reminds us we're the richest and most powerfull nation...for now. And that doesn't include showing the good things about other countries, especially China and Syria.

What I discovered after a short time in China, is that the hawks amongst them loved the idea of stiffer penalties for crimes, almost as much as Republicans here at home do. The Chinese also embraced longer sentences almost as much as American Republicans do. This all gets balanced out by the fact the Chinese have more crimes to commit.

Chinese have the freedom to work as they please, Live where they please, and cook whatever they want for dinner etc etc. So there may be better things and worse things than the US, but it balances out. Americans think money creates freedom. Yet I found happiness, freedom, and warmth amongst people other folks were telling me I should hate.

Groucho Marx said it best "You can believe your eyes or you can believe me"

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Monday, November 24, 2008 10:51 PM